Conference misery::feline_v1

    I think in general, because of the pet overpopulation problem, folks in
    here don't approve of breeding unpapered animals.  I understand your
    desire to have her kittens;  I wish I had a kitten from my late
    Sweetie.  But I think you won't get much encouragement.

    Thanks anyway.  I'll look elsewhere.  
    
    Helena

    Begging your pardon .1 but not everyone in this file is into the
    "papers only" breeding method.  There are those who prefer to do
    so and those that don't care.  Her request was obviously not
    geared to someone of the "papers only" mentality, such as you and
    others might share, but lighten up with the overpopulation jazz, etc.
    Sorry for the rebuttal but your response appeared a bit snobby and
    after all we've all got the same thing in common - our babies.
    
    Only my two cents.
    
    

    A word from your friendly moderator here.  Let's be careful of what we
    say in this note and *how* we say it.
    
    For more information on breeding cats, check the keywords.  If you do a
    "show key/full [keyword]" you will get a list of related notes.  The
    keywords that have been created around breeding are:  Breeding_issues,
    Breeding, Breed_Standards, etc.
    
    Jo

I used to work with someone who had a Siamese -- no papers.
(The older type siamese -- I believe they call them Apple
faced). Anyhow, they wanted to breed their cat before it
got spayed. They had a very difficult time finding a cat
to breed with. They went to various local breeders and found 
one who was willing to do this. She did not charge her usual 
stud fee;however, she did charge them -- I believe $200. Any- 
how, I believe that they had to agree that they would NOT 
sell the kittens as "Siamese", since they had no papers, and
could not be 'proven' to be purebred siamese. The cat had
her one litter, all the kittens found excellent homes, and
the cat was spayed.

In my opinion, I don't think what they did was wrong. What
IS wrong is if they bred the cat and then either abandoned/
took to humane society. They were willing to keep
ALL the kittens (they did keep one ;^) ) if they did not
find good homes. Even though I've got a long list of people
wanting a Korat, I'd be MORE than willing to keep ALL of them!

Have a good day!
Cheryl

    If a legitimate breeding/stud owner of a registered CFA stud cat breeds
    said cat to an unregistered female cat, they are in violation of CFA's
    Constitution and By-laws and can be disciplined by CFA for the
    violation. Discipline can take several forms, the most common being
    restriction from all CFA activities for a period (periods usually start
    at 1 year, but some have been as much as *forever*).  CFA activities
    include registering litters, registering cats, showing cats in CFA
    shows, and working on a CFA show even if you aren't showing a cat.  
    
    I am fairly certain that TICA has similar rules, as do most breed
    clubs.  This is why most legitimate breeders will not breed to
    unregistered cats.  If they do they are risking a lot.
    
    Jo

    Also I'll note that every home that was found for those kittens, means
    one less home for a cat at a shelter who was therefore 
    subsequently euthanized.

    Re: .3

    Your reply was not directed to me but I feel compelled to comment.

    I will probably never "lighten up with the overpopulation jazz". I don't 
    think you understand what overpopulation means. It means supply exceeds 
    demand. In this country (U.S.) the number of cats/kittens available far 
    exceeds the number of homes available; the number of *good* homes is 
    even less. What happens to all these unwanted animals? For the luckier 
    ones it means death at the overcrowded shelters; for the less lucky it 
    means misery and then death. For example, many people who run "free 
    kitten" ads don't realize that some of the people who take their 
    kitten(s) turn around and sell them to research labs. There are other 
    currently legal uses (which you probably wouldn't find very pleasant 
    to hear about) for cats and kittens that constitute animal cruelty. 
    Where do you suppose they get these animals? The supply is abundant 
    -- just look in your local newspaper's classified section from early 
    spring through late fall. Thank god Nature slows down production during 
    the winter months at least.

    Also, purebreds and purebred look-alikes can be found at animal shelters. 
    Just because someone pays money for something, it doesn't mean they 
    value it.

    I'm sorry if I'm raining on your (.0 and .3) parade, but this is a 
    very serious subject to me. I think prospective breeders should learn 
    the facts first and then decide if they still want to do it.

    Linda

    One more thing to note:
    
    Sometimes, a queen's pregnancy and delivery will go smoothly with
    minimal cost to the breeder.  Other times, complications can manifest
    which sometimes cause severe financial repurcussions for the
    breeder.  No breeder can predict what will happen when a queen becomes
    pregnant, but are prepared for both scenarios whatever the outcome may
    be.  Sometimes, entire litters are lost and the monies invested in stud
    fees are not reedemable (this isn't always the case but it does
    happen).  Sometimes, the entire litter including mom becomes ill and vet
    bills can be astronomical.  I would venture to guess that inexpensive,
    easy deliveries and kitten rearing are the exception, not the rule. 
    This is simply food for thought.  Many times, people have no idea that
    momcat doesn't always comply with the laws of mother nature and don't
    know what to do when birthing begins and things go wrong.
    
    In the past month, I have been informed of and helped to place three
    purebred Himalayans in need of good homes.  All with papers, all pet
    quality.  As Linda stated in her note, there are ways to obtain
    purebred, pet quality cats without having to breed your female for
    "just one litter."  I don't advocate it, but I won't condone it either. 
    If the author of .0 truely wants to breed her cat, at least include a
    spay/neuter contract with each kitten and follow up with the new owners
    to ensure it has been done.  Too many "just one litters" escalate into
    "just one more" because each new generation of kittens are as cute and
    wonderful as their ancestors.
    
    Check out the notes Jo mentioned on breeding issues.  There is a wealth
    of information in them that is helpful for anyone pondering the topic
    of breeding cats.
    

OK...and now a word from your less moderate moderator.  This notesfile will
VALUE THE DIFFERENCES of all the participants.  This topic has been discussed
in numerous other notes and it's one of those topics that we can agree to
disagree on.  Expressions of opinions that are not accusatory (is that a word?)
will be allowed, however, an air of intolerance to the values of others will
not.

Let's continue with calmer heads or I'll get out the spray bottle!!

Mary (the Wicked Witch of the East) 

    I've re-enabled replies to this note so that a less heated discussion
    can go forward.  And I've put the squirt bottle away, too....
    
    Your tranquil moderator,
    Mary
    

                               
                      
This note could be offensive, but I've calmed down and am 
thinking more of a positive outlook.

I have no intention of going down a rat hole. However, I do 
believe in defending myself.

I never condoned what the people with the siamese did. They 
wanted a particular breed of cat, wanted kittens, willing to 
take full responsibility even if they couldn't find homes, 
and had the kittens. They didn't think, "boy, wouldn't it be 
neat to have kittens? Let's not spay Susie, and just let her 
run wild!" No, they did NOT want an SPCA cat. Yes, they are 
aware of all the unwanted cats AND dogs in this world. 

Now, I'm not sure if this was directed towards me or not, but 
I'm going to tell you MY side. I volunteered my time in an 
SPCA for over a year! I KNOW of the overpopulation! It's 
backyard breeders that give reputable breeders a bad name! I 
refuse to condone anyone for breeding because they think it's 
cute, or just because they wanted kittens. The people with 
the siamese were willing to KEEP all those kittens, but
found people who wanted the "Traditional" siamese cat, not
with pointed noses (that is NOT meant as an offensive remark,
please don't take it that way). 

I have 2 cats I adopted from the SPCA, spayed and neutered, 
in addition to my Korat. The SPCA cats are VERY neurotic. 
Every cat/kitten/dog/puppy that I have seen/met at the SPCA 
is in some way neurotic. I'm not saying that ALL of them are, 
but a good majority of them are. Most of them have a right to 
be -- either abandoned, mistreated, unloved, etc. I'm willing 
to put up with it; alot of people aren't, and that's why some 
of the catS (and dogs) will end up BACK at the SPCA. PETA 
people love this; just adds to their numbers.

Have you ever seen animals euthanized? I have and it's not a 
pretty sight. So do you think that for a MINUTE I would say 
it's okay for someone to breed their cat just to breed???

Yes, I'm a breeder of an extremely rare breed of cat. I love 
this breed, and even if I didn't have buyers for my kittens, 
I would keep every last one of them! The breed could possibly 
go into extinction -- it's already (and has always been) a 
minority breed. (There are also several other breeds in this 
category) Every breeder that is in this notes file has their 
reason for breeding (I've heard this is detailed elsewhere, 
so I'm not going to get into it -- KEYWORD of 
BREEDING/BREEDING ISSUES)

I don't believe that people should get carried away and just 
breed because they want 'one last litter', unless they are 
willing to take FULL responsibility for that litter! The 
county in which I volunteered at the SPCA had a very strict 
code -- ANY cat/dog/rabbit/guinea pig/whatever that came in, 
after adoption MUST be spayed/neutered within 'x' number of 
days. They also signed a contract stating they would, or 
would pay a substantial fine (I believe it is now $300). They 
got follow up calls, and if they did not comply, they were 
fined, many taken to court. Guess who won? The SPCA. 
Additionally, the people were no longer allowed to keep the 
pet, and had to return it.

I could think of a lot other suggestions on keeping the pet 
population down. Mainly, people need to be more responsible.

A final note: I think that if this discussion was taking 
place 'face to face' that it would not get so heated. We've 
become SO dependent on computer interfacing that sometimes we 
forget that there are feelings on the other end of these 
typewritten words. With so much negative feelings in the 
corporation, let's be considerate of others feelings. I am 
just as guilty, because I forget that there are REAL PEOPLE 
on the other side of the keyboard, not just words. Not just 
this notesfiles, but alot of the others as well! 

People who are owned by cats are very sensitive -- you 
wouldn't insult your cat would you? Let's be more positive 
and value everyone's differences, even though you may not 
agree with them.

And thank you Jo and Mary for you support!

Cheryl