Conference misery::feline_v1

    Might he be a mackerel tabby?  Do you have a copy of the CFA standards? 
    There should be a color description in there that could help you
    identify him.
    
    Is the dam's tabby pattern classic?
    
    Actually, let me think about this for a while.  CFA may be trying to
    tell you that he can't be silver, not that he can't be a classic tabby.
    If he was a silver, his eye color should be green, not hazel.  How old
    is he?
    
    Let me think on this. I will get back to you.
    
    Jo

    The CFA is saying that he can't have a white undercoat with his
    parentage.  He might be a mackerel tabby.  With the long hair it
    is hard to see the pattern exactly.  
    
    His eyes are green to hazel.  He is five months old.  He looks silver
    but I do see other colors in him.  I'm not sure if they are reds or
    browns.
    
    The dam's tabby pattern is patched.
    
    My vet just labeled him a silver multi-color which does not really
    help.  If he is a male, can he be a patched tabby?
    
    I do appreciate all your help.  
    
    Thanks.
    
    Pat Walz

    The patching on the dam refers to her being patched with the red.  Her
    tabby pattern should be visible underneath.  If your cat is truly a he,
    then he cannot be a patched tabby.
    
    Okay, his dad is a red mackerel tabby out of a black and a red, his mom
    is a brown patched tabby out of the red mackerel tabby.  Let me try
    this again.
    
    Jo

    I just talked to Cin, who is better at these genetic things than I am.
    She suggested the possibility that your cat is a golden rather than a
    silver.  She agrees with CFA that with that parentage, a white
    undercoat isn't likely. She said that with a brown patched tabby
    mother, the possibility that your cat is a golden is more probable.
    
    A golden would still have brick nose leather, eye-liner, and green
    eyes.  What do you think?  Golden can be carried by the silvers in the
    pedigree too.
    
    Gotta run for now, but will check back with you later.  Too bad you
    can't reach your breeder.  I like that term "out of pocket".  I guess
    that means that you haven't been able to reach her?
    
    Jo

    I will take a closer look at Scooter Pie tonight.  He is definitely a 
    "He" (although neutered at 3 pounds).  His coloring is unusual.
    
    Would he be a golden classic or mackeral?  How could I tell.  My brown/
    red interpretation could be golden instead.
    
    I like the term "out of pocket" also, although I was very confused 
    about it when I first came to Texas.  
    
    S.P. is a cutie whatever he is.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Pat
    
    P.S.  Does Cin offer any other possibilities?
    
    

    Since Golden is one of the shaded colors, he would be either chinchilla
    golden or shaded golden.  The difference would depend on the amount of
    tipping of black on his individual hairs.  (are you totally confused
    yet?).  From the sounds of the brown/red comments, I think that Cin may
    have hit it right on the money with the golden idea. 
    
    Maybe if Joel Bollinger is reading he can put in a note with a better
    description of a golden.  He is the proud new owner of an adorable
    golden male kitten.
    
    Jo

    
>    Maybe if Joel Bollinger is reading he can put in a note with a better
>    description of a golden.  He is the proud new owner of an adorable
>    golden male kitten.
    
oh yeah!  Beautiful color...adorable kitten!  I want this one too....

    Scooter Pie is shaded.  His undercoat looks white to me and the mane
    around his neck looks white.  He has tabby markings.
    
    His tipping is black to silver with some red/brown in it.  I don't see
    how golden fits, yet most of what I read about golden indicates black
    tipping.
    
    Yes, I am thoroughly confused.  He IS beautiful and has a lover
    personality.  He is very bright.  He also talks a lot which I know
    doesn't help identify his color.
    
    HELP HELP HELP.  I would really like to identify this beautiful
    kitten.  Would photos help?
    
    Pat

    Photos would help a lot, provided you take them in good light, and get
    several angles of him.  
    
    Jo

    Let me see what I can dig up....I take a LOT of photos.  I assume the
    older he is in the photo the better?
    
    Pat

    Ok, I scooped up all the photos that i have.  I also have his whole
    pedigree right up to great grannies.  Where can I send all this
    precious information?
    
    Could he be a shaded silver with baby tabby markings?
    
    Thanks a bunch.
    
    Pat

                      <<< Note 4770.11 by HSOMAI::WALZ >>>
                                -< photo city >-

>>    Ok, I scooped up all the photos that i have.  I also have his whole
>>    pedigree right up to great grannies.  Where can I send all this
>>    precious information?
    
>>    Could he be a shaded silver with baby tabby markings?
    
I checked with the breeder that sold me a chinchilla golden and who breeds
silvers as well.  She says if there are tabby markings on the cat it is
NOT considered a SHADED cat -- golden or silver.

ALso, it is not certain what genetic backgroud produces golden; apparently,
it started showing up in litters of shaded and chinchilla silver cats and 
was considered a horrible aberration by those breeders who supposedly
had "pure" silver breeding lines.  At some point in the past, some of these 
unscrupulous breeders are known to have destroyed goldens that appeared 
in their silver line breeding.  Even today, there are folks who refuse to
use silver cats that carry the gene for producing goldens.

Hope this helps a bit.

Joel

    Joel, I sent the pictures, etc. to Jo and her first reaction to them
    is that I was right:  he sure looks like a silver tabby.  
    
    My problem now is that the CFA says his parents could not have produced
    a kitten with a white undercoat.
    
    The breeder insists that the parentage is correct.  The dam has lots
    of shaded silver in her lineage, and a silver tabby is indeed a
    possibility.
    
    In brief:  I am convinced that he is not a golden.
    
    Thanks for the input.  Any additional information is very encouraged.
    
    Pat

    This case is certainly a puzzle to me.  I have gone over the pictures
    that Pat has sent me and the kitten is definitely a silver tabby. 
    Looks just like my Jesse James did, silver with a white undercoat and
    black tabby markings.  His eye color is hazel right now, but that is
    due to his age.  As he matures, his eye color will become green.
    
    My first thought was that Pat's breeder had mistaken the parentage but
    she has already checked into that.  The next step would be to let the
    breeder fight it out with CFA since is seems this has happened before
    with previous litters.  There is such a thing as a genetic anomaly.
    
    Jo

    Jo, were you able to find out anything from the Persian breeders
    during the show this weekend?
    
    Did they agree that he is a classic silver tabby?  Did they think
    it could have occurred with his parentage?
    
    Scooter Pie awaits the news.
    
    Me, too
    
    Pat

    None of them were willing to say it was impossible for him to be a
    silver tabby persian out of those parents, but they didn't know of any
    cases of something like that happening either.  They said to have the
    breeder work with CFA to get him registered.  If she has had this
    problem with past litters, she can probably help.  Wish I could tell
    you more.  Everyone that I showed the pics to thought he was adorable,
    including Joel and I. :^D
    
    Jo
    
    

    Thanks for trying.  I will let you know how all this works out.
    
    Yes, I must admit he is adorable.  Great personality, too. 
    
    Pat