Conference misery::feline_v1

I think that the household pet category should include ALL
cats! Even if it could be considered in the purebred category!
(As your example stated -- the straight-earred scottish
fold). I have 2 "household pets" -- they are NPB (no particular
breed). I would show them, but one was declawed, and the other
is on the "pudgy" side. I bought a Korat to show -- and if
I had decided to spay her, I would still show her in the
"Premier" class. I heard a judge say that it's difficult to
judge household pets, cause there is no "standard". So,
having a cat that 'could' be in Champion/Premier class,
and is in household pet, is NOT be judged for its traits. The
judge stated that he judged household pets on their cleanliness,
care, and personality. If it hissed, or showed other signs
of "unfavorable" behavior, he wasn't going to consider it.

So, to make a long story short, I don't think they should
change it.

By the way, isn't the annual meeting in Philadelphia, not
Pittsburgh? I'm going to be attending a TICA show in Pittsburgh
this weekend (my mom lives near there -- decided to go to a TICA
show and see what's it like) and I met the entry clerk at the
last CFA show I was at (York, PA). She said alot of the CFA
people were going to be there, because the annual was in Philly.
Am I wrong/?? Did they change the location, cause if they did,
I'd LOVE to attend!

Cheryl,
Gracie, Charlie & Shanti

    It is in PA, might be Philly.  I didn't pay that much attention since I
    wasn't attending this year.  Our club sent a delegate to carry our vote
    to the annual.  If you ever do get a chance to go, grab it!  It is very
    interesting to see the way CFA works.
    
    CFA's members are it's clubs.  Each club gets one vote, so, before you
    can cast your club's vote, your club has to vote on how it will vote
    (does that make any sense?)  Our club was split evenly on this issue,
    so we decided to let our delegate hear the arguments from the floor,
    and then decide which way the club will vote.  Sometimes, the arguments
    from the floor can really change your position on the issue.  People
    bring up things that your club may not have thought of.
    
    I agree with you though, a hhp is judged on cleanliness, health,
    personality, grooming, etc.  Not on a standard.  That is why pet
    quality purebreds should be allowed in hhp class.  The class is really
    for the owner, not the cat themselves.  I think that a person that
    shows in hhp is showing how well they care for their cats, and how much
    pride they have in their cats.  A person can show these things with
    either mixed breed cats or purebreds.
    
    Jo

    Forgot to mention, next year's CFA annual will be in Seattle, WA for
    those interested in attending.  I am making plans now.  I usually have
    trouble getting there, since it is always held in June, and that is
    when my boss likes to take *his* vacation time. 
    
    The 1993 Annual meeting will be held in San Antonio, TX.
    
    The 1994 Annual meeting will be held in Traverse City, MI.
    
    The 1995 Annual meeting will be held in San Diego, CA.
    
    Jo

I'm going to spend the next couple years getting my cattery
started -- getting 'myself' WITH the cats, together, etc. So,
I'm going to shoot for the 93 and 95 Annual. Hopefully, by
then, we'll get accepted into a club (since we're 'new' to
all of this)!

I'm curious to hear how this HHP thing works out!

Cheryl

uh...well, I hate to go against the tide here, but I kinda think that the
purebred (recognizable as a distinct breed) cat may have an unfair advantage
in the HHP category.  After all, the judges are more "used" to seeing pure
bred cats, and they might have just the tiniest bias towards them...don't
you think?

Bear in mind that I have never shown a cat in any category and I'm not sure
that this is true, but I think I can understand where the happy HHP owner
is coming from....Of course, in the case of a straight-eared fold, most of
them would "pass" for a cute "unplanned" bred cat...unless, as Jo says,
the other HHP owners showing that day knew different and reported it.

At any rate, don't the pedigreed cat owners have showing categories for both
whole and neutered cats?  If that is so, why show a purebred in a category
other than these two?  It seems to me that if the cat cannot be shown in
a normal purebred category, maybe it shouldn't be shown....

Oh well, I think they are all beautiful...and I even like the hissing and
growling ones...shows "character"....at least, that is what Hannah tells me. 

    Diane brings up good points, some of which have been brought up by some
    hhp owners that show in the hhp catagories.  The main issue here seems
    to be with straight-eared folds and tailed manx and cymrics.  Lots of
    hhp people get mad when these types of cats are shown in hhp class.
    But, there is not a class that these cats can be shown in currently. 
    So then, are they to be barred from competition altogether?
    
    HHP's are judged on their beauty, personality, health and grooming.  If
    anything, an apparent purebred would be at a disadvantage, since the
    judge might be tempted to compare that cat to the standard for it's
    breed.  The judge just may think that the cat being shown in the HHP
    class is such a poor example of it's apparent breed that they are
    biased *against* that cat.  But, truth be told, judges enjoy judging 
    hhp's because they can pick whichever cat they like best.  With no 
    standards or rules to follow.  Plus, I like to give the judges more
    credit than that.  Most have a lot of integrity.
    
    The proposed change would turn all the hhp exhibitors into cat show
    police by allowing them to turn in exhibitors who show their pet
    quality purebreds in hhp class.  That would be the only way to be sure
    that this rule was being carried out, since hhp's do not enter a
    registration number on their entry forms and CFA cannot track them.
    
    Also, there are lots of purebred cats that cannot be shown in one of
    the three CFA catagories for purebred cats.  Not every kitten a buyer
    produces will be good enough to show or breed.  Most of my pet quality
    Birman kittens could not be shown in CFA due to gloving faults.  This
    is not a conformation problem, but a color problem, yet it would barr
    them from competition in any of the three catagories of purebred
    competition.  I do not encourage my kitten buyers to show their pet
    quality kittens unless I feel that that kitten could compete well in
    the Premiership class.  But, there are other breeders that do encourage 
    them to show in HHP class.
    
    Anyone have any comments on any of the other issues?  What about
    changing the finals to top 15 format.  I voted against that one since
    it didn't indicate if that was for all show formats or just for the 450
    count format.  If the rules were changed to top 15 for all formats,
    those clubs holding one day, 225 count shows would be burdened with
    extra expense that was unnecessary.  The cost of the extra rosettes
    would be great, the time it would take for all judges to award 15 in a
    final would be greater, and I feel it would dilute the win in a smaller
    show.
    
    Jo
    

    I don't think I like the idea of changing to the top 15.  In the
    HHP class there have been many times when there weren't enough
    cats to even award 10 ribbons.  I know it's much different for the
    pedigree classes.  I think it would be an added burden in time for
    the judges and money for the clubs to have to provide all those
    extra ribbons.
    
    As for apparent purebreds in the HHP class.  I'm not against it.
    I think Jo Ann is right in her point about it possibly being a
    hindrance to them/being judged against the standard for their breed
    instead of as a HHP.  I find showing to be political enough without
    adding reasons for other HHP owners to be turning in their competitors
    to the "Purebred Police".  
    
    When I am showing, I show exclusively in the HHP category.  There 
    have been shows where there have been a large number of apparent 
    purebreds competing in HHP class.  It is a little annoying when you 
    know they are probably purebreds and they are also walking away with 
    all the best HHP ribbons but, as long as the cat is happy, healthy 
    and reacting well to the judges and showing I can't see any reason to 
    prevent them from being shown in HHP...unless someone plans to create 
    a whole new showing category for these cats.  After all, when you get 
    right down to it, they're pets too and they (in most cases) do live 
    in the house...
    
    Jan

    
    - I do not feel that cats with pedigrees should be shown in the HHP
      class. If they cannot be shown in Championship, Premiership or the
      AOV Class then I do not feel they should be shown at all.  A "poor" 
      example of a cat of breed should not be shown in HHP because that is 
      the only place there is a chance of "winning".  
    
    - As far as Top 10 vs. Top 15 I feel that Top 15 is appropriate in the 
      450 count shows. The Revelers show at the Cow Palace pops into mind.
      With the count and the quality of the exhibitors I feel Top 15 in 
      all Classes in a show like this is appropriate.
    
    - On the Best, 2nd Best and 3rd Best Champion I'd vote yes on that one.
      
    - I also think that Best of Breed etc., should be awarded in the 
      Premiership Class.  Seems to me that is in there somewhere also for 
      a vote? Obviously if there is only 1 cat then it is meaningless, but 
      when you have even 2 I feel the distinction should be made.  I would 
      LOVE to know how the judges would rate the Birmans in Premiership out 
      here.  They are gorgeous and should be recognized and be ranked in their
      breed category.  Because they are spayed or neutered  does not make them
      any "less" deserving than a whole cat for the recognition of Best of 
      Breed, etc.
    
    - And while I am spouting off I still say Exotics should be in the
      Persian Class and LH Exotics should be eligible for competition in
      all claasses.
    
    - O.K., I'm done now.....  ;')
    
    

    Another vote for letting all the babies in the Household pet class,
    EXCEPT I don't believe a cat should be entered in both that and the
    categories for purebreds.  Someone doing that is just being piggy about
    ribbons, while someone with a true "pet quality" purebred should
    have access to the household pet category.
    

    Cats cannot transfer back and forth between HHP class and any of the
    other classes at a CFA show.  That would be against show rules.
    
    Marlene, you are right, the decision of whether or not to award best of
    breed in kittens and premiership is also one of the resolutions.  Our
    club voted in favor of it.  This one has been up before the board three
    times now and hasn't passed.  Well be interesting to see what happens
    this time.  That format works well at the regional qualifiers and the
    invitational, why not at all shows?
    
    There was also a resolution to lift the moratorium on new clubs.
    
    There is also a resolution that clubs may voluntarily submit judging
    evaluations on approved CFA judges.  Currently, the clubs can only
    evaluate judges that are up for advancement, and then only when called
    on to do it.  This rule change would allow clubs to do evaluations on
    all judges at any time.  I think this is a good idea.
    
    There are also a couple of resolutions having to do with getting CFA to
    take a stand on the anti-breeding legislation, but these are not worded
    correctly and probably will have to be withdrawn for that reason.  We
    will see.
    
    Oh, almost forgot the biggee...
    
    RESOLVED....All CFA judges and elected and appointed officials shall be
    subject to biannual cattery inspections to assure that all animals in
    their custody are being cared for in a humane manner...
    
    Jo

    I'm a bit confused.  In CFF, there is a class specifically for apparent
    purebreds.  I don't know if this pertains to pet quality purebreds with
    papers or any cat that qualifies as an apparent purebred.  Does CFA not
    have a class like this?
    
    I am in agreement with Marlene on the point of not showing pet quality
    purebreds in the HHP class.  My definition of a pet quality cat is one
    that falls short of the desired standard and should not be shown.  I
    also feel that showing pet quality purebreds could bias the judges into
    choosing a specific cat simply because they have a fondness for it's
    particular breed.
    
    Ditto on the best of breeds added to kitten and premiership class.  I'd
    like to see that motion passed as well as the third best
    champion/premier spots.
    

    I  have agree with Marlene here,, I was going to say the same thingsm,
    but she beat to it. Preschie is  shown as an AOV IN CFF AND CFA, as
    she is a "longhaired exotic". In TICA she is shown as a Persian..
    In CFF they do give her rosettes,, and I believe she accumulates
    points  towards national wins( someoone jump in here if I  do not
    phrase that right). In CFA she is given only the  the blue and black
    flat ribbons. I also think that long haired exotics should be shown
    as Persians.. 
     As far a showing in general. I asked MAMACIN for her permission
    to enter Preschie. And Cindy explained to me, that she thought
    that would be ok. I invited her up to visit me, and see
    Preschie close up , she had seen tons of photos..!!!!
    Cin came up to visit.. and I asked her how she felt about
    that.. Cin said and I quote.. well I will say ok, but 
    she is not to be entered in the HHP CLASS, you can show
    show her as an AOV in CFF, and in TICA in the alter class,
    and if you  want CFA also as an AOV. And then Cin explained
    what an AOV is etc. I did the same thing with Kissy..
    I asked Cin if she felt it would be ok to  show her,, and
    she  has said ok and  she felt that Kissy would be ok at a tica
    show or CFF show, but she felt that Kissy is not what
    CFA is looking for, and thats fine with me.. I'm gonna
    love 'em anyway.... Of course as we all know the lovely MS Preschie
    is enjoying "showtime", smirk, grin giggle.. Cin and I are convinced
    she knows the difference between the shows we  have brought her to.
    she really "hams it up tica, she is quieter at CFF... and at
    the 1 cfa show we did,, as I said" look Preschie,,, neato blue
    and black ribbons.,," she just "ignored " me.. smirk, grin giggle..
    Kate, Happy, Preschie(hmm,. I like big  rosettes better,,) Kissy. 

    I had sent off a mail message to Jo about the basenote and then
    decided I might as well just enter the mail here since it says
    it all. 
    
    I have NOT read the 13 replies yet.
    
    I also want to remind people that the first Scottish fold was a 
    white BARN cat - a Moggie.  
    
    Here are my thoughts.
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
I was just reading your basenote about the CFA meeting and haven't had
a chance to read through the 13 replies that were there.  Just wanted
to drop you a  line on SE scottish folds.

They CAN be shown as AOV's in CFA, but my reaction is "why bother".  I took
Angel to one show.  Most of the judges ooh'd and aah'd over her and gave her
the default first place blue ribbon and that was it.  

My major comment as a fold breeder is that a rule prohibiting the showing
of a SE fold as a HHP would hurt the fold breeders.  SE folds are NOT
elibible for championship or any titles and they can't be finalled.  So
where's the fun of showing.  For breeders its important to bring the SE's
that will be bred out to be shown - but even that isn't going to happen
very much with the current way AOV's are handled in CFA - but there's no
other reason to bring out a SE fold in a purebred class.

I don't see that SE folds have any real advantage over other HHP's.  Most
folks can't tell the difference anyway.  HHP's are supposed to be judged
on different qualities than the purebreds so the SE folds shouldn't have
any headstart over the other moggies.  

SE folds can't be shown AOV in CFF either right now.  We tried to get that
changed last year and the resolution failed because folks are afraid we
will push for championship status.  

CFF handles its AOV's differently and if CFA did something similar, perhaps
folks would be more interested in showing their SE folds as AOV's.  In CFF,
the AOV's have a separate class and the competition is similar to the regular
classes with best, second best etc being awarded in the finals.  They do
not have titles, but at least they can get rosettes.  Now, I'm not sure if
they can be neutered or not in the AOV classes.  I suspect not.  Which opens
up another whole can of worms.  We want to encourage people to neuter their
pet cats.  

At least where SE folds are concerned, I would definitely vote AGAINST such
a resolution and argue very strongly against it.
    
    Nancy DC
    

    Is this a work around.......
    
    As a breeder, even if I've registered the litter, if I don't
    provide the necessary papers then the cat can't be registered.
    That would be around the "can't be registered as a purebred". 
    
    If they still exclude such cats then they'll have to exclude
    the apparent purebreds that come from shelters etc and have no
    papers even tho they may be purebred.
      Nancy

    CFA does not have a hhp class for apparent purebreds.  In fact, they
    don't do much for hhp's as it is.
    
    Also, though I never encourage my pet buyers to show their pet quality
    Birmans in CFA, I feel that if a person has a pet quality purebred and
    wants to show it, they should be able to.  I showed my mixed breed cats
    in the hhp class for many years, and have been exposed to the
    competition in that class.  I have witnessed cases of apparent
    purebreds in these classes, and no it did not bother me one bit.  The
    nice thing about hhp class is that it is supposed to be for every cat,
    young, old, large, small, skinny, fat, mixed breed or apparent
    purebred.  The class is supposed to be fun!  How fun can it be when an
    entire group of cats will be banned from the class?  Or when exhibitors
    will be policing each other?
    
    CFA has many show rules already, and some are unenforceable.  Why
    create more show rules that are unenforceable?  
    
    Consider this worst case scenario.  Say a person enters their pet 
    quality purebred in their first CFA show, and mistakenly enters the 
    hhp class.  That person goes to the show, is shunned by his/her fellow 
    exhibitors, and then after the show, someone reports that this person is 
    in violation of the show rules.  CFA calls a hearing at their next board 
    meeting, the person in question does not show up to defend herself cuz 
    the board meeting is in Texas and she lives in California, and besides, 
    she doesn't know that she has done anything wrong!!  Anyway, the board 
    finds her guitly of violating show rule number such-and-such, and they 
    discipline her by banning her from CFA shows for one year!  This kind of 
    thing happens. That is what the normal disciplinary action is, a 
    suspension of all CFA services for a period of a year.  So, now we have 
    a case where a person innocently entered a show, looking for fun and 
    friendship from others who share her love of cats, and in doing so 
    violated a show rule that she didn't know existed and was banned from 
    further participation in CFA.
    
    Let me also say, that apart from the discipline part of my scenario,
    this really happened at a show.  I had met this woman at a show, she
    was a spectator, and she told me that she had a Birman that she got as
    a pet.  She started coming to all the shows, asking questions about the
    Birmans, and showing me pictures of her cat.  Well, about a year and a
    half later, she bought another Birman, this one a show quality.  She 
    decided to enter the cats in a show, and asked me for my evaluation.  
    I saw the cats, and told her that the one that she bought as a pet was good
    enough to show in premiership too, and that she should enter them both. 
    
    When she went home to fill out the forms, she got confused, and entered
    the one that she got as a pet in the Household Pet catagory, because
    the word Pet threw her off.  
    
    When she got to the show, I noticed the error, and tried to change it
    with the master clerk.  I was told that you could not transfer a cat
    from HHP to the championship classes, under any circumstances (there is
    a show rule for that, wouldn't you know it).  Anyway, her choices were
    to leave him in the HHP class for the day, or pull him and be out the
    $50 entry fee.  She decided to show him, since she wanted to see how he
    would act before entering another show.  The HHP exhibitors treated her
    badly, some made open comments about the fact that he was a purebred,
    and this hurt her feelings.  The judges didn't final him, who knows
    why.  I handled the cat myself, and he was in magnificent condition. 
    It could have been that he was very obviously a purebred Birman.   
    There is no way to know for sure, but the day was not a good one for
    this lady.
    
    Anyway, to then have her be disciplined for having made an error would
    have been adding insult to injury in my opinion.  This person has
    continued to show, but not in the HHP class.  She would probably not
    show her mixed breed cat in the HHP class if you paid her to do it. 
    Her experience was that bad.  Anyway, she also now has a Norwegian
    Forest Cat and very happily shows her in the AOV class.  
    
    Geez, I don't know why I rambled on like this.  Sorry this was so long.
    :^)
    
    Jo  

    Ken and I were talking about this hhp thing at lunch today and I came
    up with another angle.  What if someone adopts an apparent purebred (or
    possibly purebred) cat from a shelter or humane society.  Though that
    person holds no papers on the cat, would that can be banned from hhp
    class?  How would anyone be able to tell if an apparent purebred was
    able to be registered or not.  As Nancy said, that leaves the loophole
    of her not registering her SE folds.
    
    I think that this rule could cause a lot of dissention amoung the
    exhibitors, and could lead to very unsportsmanlike behavior.  I sure
    hope it doesn't pass.  I will let you guys know as soon as I hear what
    happens this weekend.
    
    Jo
    

    Let me take a second and point out some differences between the way
    CFF handles HHP's and the way CFA does.  As someone already pointed
    out, ?Roberta I think, CFF has a subclass of HHP called apparent
    purebred.  This class, as I understand it, is for cats that appear
    to be purebreds but do not have papers, or for purebreds with a fault
    of somesort.  They are judged separately from the other HHPs.  SE folds
    would NOT be judged in this category however.
    
    Also, CFF registers its HHP's and keeps track of points.  HHPs earn
    titles of Companion, Grand Companion and Master Grand Companion and
    HHP awards the top HHP awards for the year just as it does for the
    purebred classes.  
    
    Most breeders do NOT want a substandard purebred of their breeding to
    be shown even in the altered classes.  For them, I would think the
    apparent purebred class would be fine.  
    
    So for shows with a large enough HHP class have separate classes for
    apparent purebreds and regular HHP's.  For smaller shows then you'd
    have to put them all together.  
    
    I understand that the HHP folks want a class to themselves and I
    honestly don't know how I feel about registered purebreds being shown
    HHP with the exception of SE folds and tailed Manx's. 
    
    BTW - THERE IS ALSO NO WAY TO SHOW A TAILED MANX IN CFF.  This year
    the manx breeders are re-introducing the request to change the AOV
    rules in CFF to allow SE folds and tailed manx's because of their
    importance to the breeding programs.  For those who don't know,
    you never breed two tailless manx's.  So the tailed manx is 1/2 the
    manx breeding program, just like the SE fold.

    type - that should have read CFF awards top HHP awards for the year.

    I understand your points Nancy, but I think that there is a flaw in
    your argument.  If we are willing to allow SE folds and tailed Manx,
    then we will have to allow other purebreds as well.  You can not have
    half a rule.  It is either all or none.
    
    Also, if CFF has a class for apparent purebreds or purebreds with some
    sort of faults, why do they keep the SE folds out of that class?  In
    this instance, isnt the fact that the ears are straight and not folded 
    a fault against the fold standard?  I do not understand that
    distinction.
    
    As it is, I don't think that CFA does enough for it's household pets. 
    I would like to see resolutions that change that.  Trouble is, not
    enough household pet people are involved in CFA clubs, or take the time
    to become involved in the workings of CFA.  Household pet class is an
    important part of CFA, and in a lot of cases, it is the public's
    favorite class, and may be their introduction to the cat fancy as a
    whole.  That is another reason why I feel it is important to not
    exclude any cat from showing in household pet class.
    
    The current show rules currently define household pet class as being 
    for "any domestic kitten or altered cat entry not otherwise eligible".  
    The definition goes on to say that household pets are to be judged
    separately from all other cats, solely on beauty and condition.  
    
    I like the idea of giving hhp's titles or having something that they
    can work towards.  Our region currently awards top 10 regional awards
    to the ten highest scoring household pets each year.  It wasn't until
    we elected a new regional director that the household pets gained some
    recognition in our region.
    
    Jo
    
    
    

    I like the idea of working towards titles in the HHP class.  I miss
    having something to work for now that the Morris Award is gone.
    
    Jan

    What happened to the Morris Award?
    

    re: .20 - Actually, I'm not sure about the flaw part.  Maybe Holly
    can fill me in since she's more involved with CFF (clerking) than I
    am.  
    
    I also don't consider straight-ears on folds or the presence of a tail
    on Manx's to be a "fault".  I would classify fault as something like
    kink in tail or stiff tail.  I would also put in folded ear cats with
    poor earsets into the apparent purebred class.  It was my understanding
    that a breed standard is used in that class but again, I don't know
    alot about it. 
    
    SE folds and Tail'd manxes do NOT fit the breed standard and that's
    where the problem is.  They can't compete in any class that uses
    the breed standard - championship, alter.  The current AOV rules
    don't say anything about tail or ears, just eye and coat color, and
    coat length.  
    
    Kate - Does the AOV class distinguish between alters and intact cats?
    You show Preschie as and AOV in CFF don't you?
    
    IF the AOV rules are changed to allow intact or altered, SE folds and
    Manx's with tails then I wouldn't oppose the rulling brought up in the
    basenote.  I don't know as I would support it however, for the other
    reasons that have been brought up.
      Nancy
    
    

    re: my last paragraph - that's in CFF I'm talking about.  
    In CFA, I'd want to see the judging of AOV's handled differently
    because there's no fun in showing as its currently done.
      Nancy
    

    How can a cat in the apparent purebred class be judged against a
    standard when the judge probably won't be exactly certain what he or
    she is looking at?!
    
    Jo brought up a point that I was going to mention about apparent
    purebreds being shown in the HHP class.  I would love to show Taja once
    as a HHP and see how he does.  However, he so closely resembles a
    purebred I'm not sure how well received his presence would be.  He is a
    siamese cross with no papers.  I would hate to be penalized because of
    this.  He is such an adorable cat with a very unique look.  It would be
    a shame if I were banned from showing him simply because he looks like
    a purebred.  (I could see the siamese breeders now "policing" me for
    bringing such a PET QUALITY specimen into the show hall!! :^) )
    
    I think it's a dumb rule and as Jan pointed out, there are enough
    politics associated with showing and if this motion were passed, I'm
    afraid it would only be more fuel for the fire.  As Jo said, showing
    HHPs is supposed to be fun -- let's keep the fun in it!
    

Here's something interesting I just thought of...

About 2 years ago, a woman I used to work for bought 2 scottish
folds -- with 'show potential'. Her and her husband bought these
cats as 'household pets'. The husband plans on showing one of
the folds -- and will probably do so in a household pet class,
because he doesn't want to get caught up in what he calls the
"politics" of people with purebred cats. (That's ANOTHER
rat hole -- ). They also just recently bought an American
Shorthair, which again, they are thinking of showing, and
will probably do so as a household pet.

Even though I think people should be able to show a purebred
cat (such as tailed Manx, SE scottish fold) IMHO I think there
ARE people that would be putting their cat in the household pet 
category JUST BECAUSE they think they'd win! (The scottish folds 
parents are GrCH -- I'm not sure about the Am. Shorthair). 

NOW, there's one thing they did, and didn't realize that this is
a DEFINITE 'no no' in showing cats -- they got them declawed. (Of
course, that's ANOTHER rat hole...). HOWEVER, they were told that
there are cat associations that ALLOW declawed cats? (I don't know
of any, though).

But, just think. There are probably people out there that would
put their purebred in JUST BECAUSE they thought they would beat out
your typical cat! I'd much rather have my Gracie compete against other
Korats, to see the quality of cat I have. Additionally, I've met SUCH
NICE PEOPLE (breeders, etc.) at shows! And for household pet people,
I've loved almost all the ones I've met! Their cats, though not purebred,
are beautiful! 

I feel that most people who buy purebreds and have ANY intention of showing,
will do so in the appropriate classes. I know there are some that won't, but
I didn't invest the money I did in Gracie (or the money I WILL be expending
to start my cattery) to have her in a household pet category!

I didn't mean to ramble, but I'm getting on "both" sides of the fence now.
However, I still stand with my initial statement -- any cat should be allowed
in HHP in CFA, since the rules are different for purebreds.

Cheryl, Gracie, and my 2 'non-showing' HHP, Charlie & Shanti

    Nancy the AOV rules in CFA do state that the class is for SE folds,
    tailed Manx, and other breeds that do not meet the standard either
    coatwise, colorwise, or sexwise.  Interestinly enough, the CFA
    definition for AOV does not exclude altered cats.  But, altered AOV's,
    kittens, and whole AOV's would all compete against each other within
    their breed.  They are only broken down by breed in the AOV class.
    
    In the case of the couple mentioned in the last note who bought two
    cats with show potential and planned to show them in household pet
    class, that sounds like an example of someone who could compete in the
    premiership class but would rather show as a household pet.  Since the
    cats are declawed now, that excludes them from competition in CFA in
    any class, household pet or otherwise.  They may be allowed to compete
    in household pet class in another association, but I think that all cat
    associations ban declawed cats from championship competition.  I may be
    wrong about this though.  Those noters who show heavily in other
    associations may be able to verify this for us.
    
    Jo

     
    .25 - Roberta I would show Taj in the HHP in a minute!  While he is
    obviously a Siamese cross I cannot see how they could think he would
    be a pet quality Siamese.  With the shape of his head, the breadth of
    his chest and his overall boning it appears obvious to me that he 
    has a "cobby cat" in his line.  I bet you that he would clean up
    big time.... :')
    
    
    
    

    
    I agree with Marlene, show him Roberta.  I don't think that they would 
    consider him an apparent purebred since his only relation to siamese 
    would be his color.  The rest of him does not conform to the show 
    standard for siamese.  The genes for point color have been present in
    the general cat population for centuries, so it is very likely that a
    cat showing point color is not of purebred parents.
    
    Jo

    Thanks, girls!  You talked me into it.  :^)
    

    
    For lack of not knowing what note to ask this in I'll do it here
    since we have been discussing both organizations.  What geographical
    area does CFF cover?  How far West does it come? CFA, TICA, ACFA are
    coast to coast. Does CFA stop at the Mid-West area?
    
    

    I think you mean does CFF stop in the midwest area?  I have only seen
    one ACFA show announcement out here.  I don't think that they have a
    large following on the west coast.  We have mostly TICA and CFA, with
    CFA being most dominant.
    
    Jo

    Nancy, Nope, MS Preschie has been altered, also Mulligan ( a solid
    himmy ) was also shown as a whole cat in the AOV CLASS,as well the
    as the very nice British shorthair.. um I think his name was Edward..
    .
    Kate, Happy, Preschie(aov, alter, persian.. I want my rosettes.NOW)
    Kissy..

     Post script: I have also shown Preschie as an AOV in CFA as well.
    we made on appearance last year at the show in Salem N.H.
    We did have a good time,, and she was the only AOV there..
    Everyone said some very nice things about her..!!! she eenjoyed that
    part, but I could tell that  she was disappointed that she only
    got small ribbons ,,instead of rosettes.
     Let me relate  a story to you.. I still to this day, speak
    occasionally with Allison (HRHS BREEDER), and she about
    freaked out, when I told her I had entered Preschie as an AOV
    in a CFA show.. ( and she has seen pictures of her). Her
    Philosphy is that " all of us who breed, occasionally
    produce an AOV, but we do not want to draw attention
    to that in a  cfa show hall. She was really freaked out when
    I told her I had Cin's permission, and that MAMACIN carried
    Preschie down the main aisle of the show hall that day, 
    for her very 1st ring.. and for every ring after that,, she
    was right there with me and Preschie,, and gave her hugs
    and kisses... and told her GOOD GIRL,,pretty girl,, 
    Allison also does not believe in exotic longhairs being
    shown as persians either..!! she is very traditional in
    her value set, but she was just amazed that MAMACIN would
    let me show Preschie , as Preschie was sold to me as a pet,,
    and Allison never let anyone show any of the animals she
    sold as pets.... So I think that everyonr has their
    own opinions on what should be what.. I enjoy showing
    Preschie,, but this a hobby.. and I am going to love
    her anyway.. rosettes or no rosettes..!!!
    Kate

    re: Declawed Scottish folds - You can show them in TICA.  I believe
    ACFA will also let you show declawed cats.
    
    I would disagree, however, with showing them in the HHP class.  If they
    are a good example of the breed standard, i feel they belong in the
    Alter class.  There are politics in EVERY class, including HHP so you
    aren't going to get away from it by going HHP.  The alter class is
    definitely more fun than the championship class.  Personally, I
    think these folks will open themselves up to much more hostility
    by showing good purebreds in the HHP class.   
    
    Also, in CFF, you MUST register a cat as a HHP to show HHP and once
    that's done you can't switch the registration to purebred.  Of course
    since CFF doesn't allow declawed cats in any class its a moot point.
    
    The point is, that if the cats are already registered as purebreds 
    then they may not be able to register them HHP.
    
    re: .34 - AOV's - I differ with Allison's attitude 100%.  I am sure
    that is due, in part, to the fact that when ALlison breeds two persians 
    she gets a litter of persian kittens.  When manx and fold breeders 
    produce a litter a percentage of the kittens may not be recognizable
    as folds or manx's to the "average" person because they lack the most
    unique trait of the breed.  That doesn't make them undesireable pets.
    They still have alot to offer and I want to educate the general 
    public who has never heard of a straight-earred fold.  
    
    I think Angel is one of the most beautiful cats I've ever seen -
    (maybe I'm biased ;^) - partially due to her "fold" characteristics.
    So I want people to know about straight-earred folds and I want
    them to recognize SE's as the purebreds that they are.
    
    Nancy

    Nancy, I also disagree with Allison for what is worth. She thought/
    still thinks that Ms Preschie is very nice.. but she also
    feels that she is not a "real Persian". She remembers MAMA CIN
    was when Cin  was showing Fire, and the 1st question she asked
    me was is Preschie related to Fire?..  when I said yes, she is
    Fire great granddaughter.. her response was." geez.. ".. She also
    does not think TICA is so hot.. even though HRH was shown primarily
    in CFA.. she also did CFF with her, when she had a cat that was not
    CFA material".. of course HRH used to "act up" at CFF shows..
    remind me th next time I see you to tell you about a few of them.
    smirk, grin , giggle . I personally like TICA, and CFF. I have
    no real opinion on CFA..except to say that they  were very nice
    to Preschie.. and they said some very nice things about her..
    I also agree that the alter class is fun.. and also showing
    AOV  is fun as well.. speaking of shows is anyone going to
    the TICA show  on 5-7 in  peabody.. I will be there on
    the 6 th and 7th with MS Preschie and MAMACIN will be there
    on the 7th.. I am waiting on Kissy.. as she just finisshed up
    her last round of kitten shots, and she still needs  to finish
    up her last 2  feline leuk shots..  I am thinking of bringing
    her to the mansfield show in August.. to get her used to it..
    smirk, grin, giggle.. of course I may have to put a jungle gym
    in her show cage,, as she is quite the climber  geesch..|!!!
    Kate, Happy, Preschie, and Kissy..( whats with this cage business
    anyway..)

    Re:  .22
    
    Did anyone answer this?  Did I miss the answer.
    
    Karen,
    
    To the best of my knowledge, I belive the Morris Award was
    discontinued.  However, I don't remember any of the details on
    why.  Maybe Jo Ann can remember.
    
    Jan

    The Morris Award was sponsored by 9-Lives Cat Food, and they simply
    decided to cut the program.  It was their own program, run completely
    by the 9-Lives folks and not by CFA or any of the other associations, 
    and cost them quite a bit each year to run.
    
    Jo

    I have heard bits and pieces from folks returning from the annual. 
    Still don't have the whole scoop, probably won't until our next cat
    club meeting.
    
    Anyway, the top 15 finals resolution did not pass.  Neither did the 3rd
    best champion resolution.
    
    The big one that did pass was the awarding of Best and Second Best of
    Breed in kittens and premiers!!  That new rule will go into affect on
    May 1, 1992. They will also be awarding Best Premier in the premiership
    class by breed, so you won't have to rely on finals to get your grand
    points.
    
    Will let you know when I hear anything else.  The folks that I talked
    to did not have all the resolutions marked, so couldn't tell me if the
    hhp one passed.
    
    Jo

    
    .39 -  All right!  I am so pleased that BOB and 2nd Best for kittens
    and Premiers passed! it's about time! :')
    
    Jo, I can understand why the Top 15 resolution didn't pass, but do you
    know why the 3rd Best Champion resolution didn't make it?  What was the
    line of thinking? 
    

    Probably something along the lines of it would make granding too easy. 
    They probably felt that if they added 3rd best champion, they would
    have to up the points needed to grand.
    
    Will get the full report from our delegate when we have our next cat
    club meeting.
    
    Jo

    I finally got the scoop on the household pet resolution, it did not
    pass!
    
    Also, the Best of Breed for kittens and premiers did not pass by a
    2/3rds margin, so it may not become a new show rule.  Since the
    required margin was not won, the board of directors of CFA get to 
    decide whether to pass the rule or not.  There is a lot of opposition 
    from judges, master clerks and clerks on this resolution.  The judges 
    met at the judges seminar at the annual and came up with some 
    recommendations that should go into effect if the board adopts this 
    resolution.  Those recommendations include lowering the count from 225 
    to 200 for one day 4 ring shows, and 2 day back to back shows; and 
    changing the required start time of shows from 9:00am to 8:00am.  :^(  
    Only time will tell what the board will decide to do with this one.
    
    Jo