Conference misery::feline_v1

    Valerie,
    
    As the person who wrote the recent note about prefering the older
    style Himmies with the longer noses, I will be the first to reply. 
    To all, the following represents my own thoughts and opinions and I
    hope that no one takes offense at what they are about to read.
    
    Improving the breed.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  The reason
    the overall look of certain breeds has changed over the years is due to
    the judges at cat shows prefering certain looks over others.  The ones
    that were winning were deemed quality and breeders tried very hard to
    perpetuate certain characteristics.  I don't see them as improvements. 
    In several breeds, such as the Himmie, Siamese, and Persian, my
    preference is for the sweeter looks of yesterday (on the persian types)
    and the more appealing, easier on the eye, applehead siamese.  Extreme
    isn't the word to describe what some of us see in the show halls today!
    
    Now, when perpetuating these characteristics, breeders must do a
    certain amount of inbreeding to set type.  This is also the fastest way
    to bring out any undesireable, and sometimes lethal, recessive genes. 
    The sad thing is that many times if the defect isn't something glaringly
    apparent (physical), by the time it is disovered that there is a
    problem it is rampant in the genepool.  So, in an effort to set the
    desireable type, the breeder has (unintentionally) harmed the health
    and longetivity of the animal(s).
    
    Valerie is right.  There ARE a lot of uninformed, ignorant people out
    there who think that breeding cats or dogs is a way to make a fast
    buck.  However, there are also a handful of breeders who truely love a
    certain breed but aren't partial to the extreme look of today.  Why
    penalize them for catering to a market of folks who love and are
    looking for the same thing?  They should be able to get what they want
    without explanations, guilt or apology.
    
    I feel I have justification to back up my statments.  In the past three
    years, I have lost 3 dearly loved purebred cats purchased from
    legitimate, responsible breeders.  They are in it to improve the breed,
    show regularly, and do all the right things as evidenced in this
    notesfile.  I thought by purchasing a cat from that type of breeder and
    spending a lot of money that my cats would live long, healthy lives. 
    Well, they didn't.  They died at ten months, one year, and almost two
    years old respectively.  For all who don't know my beloved Birman,
    Murdock, who I frequently bragged about in the bragging note, died in
    March.  It was very tragic and the purpose of sharing it with all of
    you is not to generate sympathy.  It's to point out that spending a lot
    of money and buying from a responsible breeder doesn't necessarily mean
    that you won't experience heartbreak.  It doesn't guarantee a darn
    thing!  In essence, I have found that more problems occur in
    catteries with people who show and adhere to the standards versus
    people who don't.  In trying so hard to continuously improve type, good
    health and strong immunity is usually compromised.  I'll take a healthy
    "backyard bred" cat anyday!!!
    
    I don't like the ads in the paper advertising cats without papers or
    siamese/himmie crosses at $100 and up.  The is purely irresponsible and
    my definition of backyard breeding.  But, I don't necessarily view the
    breeders with less extreme cats as being irresponsible.  They simply
    prefer a different look and are catering to the market of people who
    want that look.  I don't think they are taking away sales from the
    "legitimate, responsibile" breeders.  Maybe the prospective buyers 
    simply don't want the look  those breeders are breeding.
    
    I'm sure there will be several folks in disagreement with my thoughts
    and that's okay.  I'm glad Val began this topic because it gave me a
    chance to express the thoughts that have been on my mind for the past
    few months.  I only hope we can keep this topic from going down a rat
    hole and I apologize if I've offended anyone by stating my views.
    
    --Roberta
    

    I just want to clarify one thing.  Judges do not set breed standards. 
    Breed councils set breed standards.  Breed councils are not allowed to
    change breed standards on a whim.  It is a very long, drawn out process
    to change a breed standard, and 9 times out of 10, a change that passes
    on the breed council will not pass the board of directors.  In most
    cases, a breed will evolve over many, many years.
    
    In the case of my breed, Birmans, there have been no major changes to
    the breed standard since the day it was accepted by CFA in 1967.  The
    changes that have occured have been things such as changing the amount
    of points that are given to a particular trait.  For instance, each
    breed standard allows for 100 points per cat.  How those points are
    divided between the features of the cat will indicate how important to
    the overall cat that particular feature is.  The Birman breed council
    voted to change the amount of points that were awarded to gloving, and
    that passed the board.  If the breed council was to vote to remove all
    points from gloving, thus indicating that gloving was not important
    anymore, the board would probably not approve that change since that
    would radically alter the appearance of Birmans.
    
    Gotta run for a momemt, more of my feelings when I get more time.
    
    Jo

    In the case of recessive genetic problems, inbreeding is the only way
    to find out for certain if a recessive genetic problem exists. 
    Inbreeding can save the lives of lots of future generations, by
    bringing problems to light early on, before that recessive gene is
    distributed throughout a line or breed.  The problem with recessive
    genes is that they can be passed along unnoticed from one generation to
    the next.  By inbreeding two cats, that recessive gene would be forced
    to show itself in the offspring.  Once a unwanted recessive surfaces,
    the breeder can then work to remove if from the line, or abandon any
    thoughts of breeding that line.
    
    Inbreeding is an important part of breeding, but shouldn't be taken on
    by those not knowledgeable on the subject.
    
    I won't argue about whether or not my kittens are healthier or less
    healthy than those of a backyard breeder.   I do know that I do
    everything possible to insure that any kitten that I breed has a chance
    at a happy, healthy life, and I do not cut any corners when it comes to
    my cats.  That is why my cattery is always in the red.  I may charge
    $400.00 for my pets, but every penny of that money goes back into the
    cats, and none of it is lining my pockets or making me any profit.  I
    am not profit motivated.  It does bother me to see ads for mutt kittens
    (himmy cross, persians no papers, etc) that are charging $150.00 to
    $250.00, when I know that there is a good chance that that money is 
    profit for some backyard breeder.
    
    But, I don't waste a lot of time worrying about that.  The people that
    buy those kittens probably aren't the ones that I want to sell to anyway. 
    I would much prefer to sell to knowledgeable buyers who sought out my
    breed for the unique characteristics of the breed, and not because my 
    kittens were in the paper and were "cheaper" than someone else's.  This
    is just my feeling about this situation.
    
    This type of topic comes up frequently in Feline.  Check the keywords
    under "breeding_issues" if you would like to read some of what has been
    said on this topic in the past.
    
    Jo

Jo,

If we could just talk a little more about inbreeding and genetics as you 
mentioned in your previous note.

I know about Himmy and Persians but I'm sure it must apply with all 
breeds, that we do try to "line breed" (Breed cats with similar 
pedigrees)  to set type and hopefully capture the desired caracteristics of 
certain lines. Along with the good also comes the bad as well, so one 
o be knowledge about what they are doing or they can have a real 
disaster on their hands.  

My Dad and I were talking the other day about "line breeding"  My 
family raised German Shorthair Pointers when I was young.  So we spent 
some time showing and training them for the field.  Dad told me that 
line breeding in dogs ment taking a bitch back to the grandfather, but 
that was as close as you would want to go.  Infact I know that the kennel 
associations in Germany and other European countries won't even allow you 
to register a dog if it was the result of a father/daughter, 
1/2 brother/1/2 sister breeding.  This is to ensure the breed is 
genetically sound of certain genetic defects that result when you come in 
too close.

With cats it is very common to see a mother/son, father/daughter breeding.  
Especially working with Himalayan Hybrids bringing a hybrid daughter 
back to the pointed father because the mother was a Persian total outcross 
this tends to produce your best type.  But I am unsure about future generations
taking them back to the father/grandfather I would think that would be too 
much.  Please advise..  

When do you say enough is enough.  Do you feel some regulations should 
be set for line breeding in efforts to protect the strength of certain 
lines?  It's an interesting thing to think about.    

Also, I wanted someone to give me some input regarding the Calif. laws 
that they are trying to pass banning people from breeding cats & dogs.  
It's causing quite a commotion with many breeders here in the North 
East.  I don't know much about it, but my first reaction was not to ban 
but possible have tighter control over breeders and what their breeding.
Maybe making breeders register their cattery with the state.  Submit 
counts on what they're breeding and all nueter and spayed agreements that 
go out.  Maybe also have it mandatory to have routine inspection on 
breeder catteries that must comply to state health and ASPCA 
regulations.  This might tend to curb the "backyard breeder"  and 
hopefully put an end to these  Himmy/Siamese mixes that make us all 
shutter.  Or catteries that are so filthy that when you get home you 
just strip at the door roll you clothes in a paper bag shoes and all and 
burn them....  What do you think?? 

Roberta, I am so sorry to hear about your loss of Murdock and the 
others,  could I inquire what exactly was it  caused from?  Was it 
genetically linked?  Do most breeders guarantee as I do the genetic 
health of there cats?  Especially when you can pay hundreds/thousands of 
dollars for breeders/show I would like to know that the breeder would 
stand behind the health of the cat and make some kind of compensation.


R-

Valerie




   

 



     <<< Note 4709.3 by WR2FOR::CORDESBRO_JO "set home/cat_max=infinity" >>>
                        -< the following is my opinion >-

    In the case of recessive genetic problems, inbreeding is the only way
    to find out for certain if a recessive genetic problem exists. 
    Inbreeding can save the lives of lots of future generations, by
    bringing problems to light early on, before that recessive gene is
    distributed throughout a line or breed.  The problem with recessive
    genes is that they can be passed along unnoticed from one generation to
    the next.  By inbreeding two cats, that recessive gene would be forced
    to show itself in the offspring.  Once a unwanted recessive surfaces,
    the breeder can then work to remove if from the line, or abandon any
    thoughts of breeding that line.
    
    Inbreeding is an important part of breeding, but shouldn't be taken on
    by those not knowledgeable on the subject.
    
    I won't argue about whether or not my kittens are healthier or less
    healthy than those of a backyard breeder.   I do know that I do
    everything possible to insure that any kitten that I breed has a chance
    at a happy, healthy life, and I do not cut any corners when it comes to
    my cats.  That is why my cattery is always in the red.  I may charge
    $400.00 for my pets, but every penny of that money goes back into the
    cats, and none of it is lining my pockets or making me any profit.  I
    am not profit motivated.  It does bother me to see ads for mutt kittens
    (himmy cross, persians no papers, etc) that are charging $150.00 to
    $250.00, when I know that there is a good chance that that money is 
    profit for some backyard breeder.
    
    But, I don't waste a lot of time worrying about that.  The people that
    buy those kittens probably aren't the ones that I want to sell to anyway. 
    I would much prefer to sell to knowledgeable buyers who sought out my
    breed for the unique characteristics of the breed, and not because my 
    kittens were in the paper and were "cheaper" than someone else's.  This
    is just my feeling about this situation.
    
    This type of topic comes up frequently in Feline.  Check the keywords
    under "breeding_issues" if you would like to read some of what has been
    said on this topic in the past.
    
    Jo

    Val,
    
    I don't mind you asking at all.  I lost all three of my cats, 2
    Ragdolls and 1 Birman, to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.  Very little is
    know about the disease and whether or not it is genetic.  The
    cardiologist at Tufts who treated my cats believes that it is.  Other
    specialists disagree.  It is thought that some breeds have a hereditary
    predisposition to it while others do not.  I wish I could answer your
    question with an outright yes or no but I just can't.  It is a very
    sensitive subject to talk about in a public forum.
     
    I can give you some information though.  My 2 Ragdolls were full
    brothers, but not littermates.  I purchased two littermate boys from
    the mom's first litter and one died when he was 10 months old (I still
    have Kelsey, his brother).  The breeder gave me the option of either my
    money back or a new kitten and I chose the new kitten who happened to
    be from a repeat breeding of Shelby, the kitten I lost.  Kirby, the new
    kitten, died when he was a little over a year.
    
    Now, in response to your comments about close inbreeding, the
    interesting thing about my losses and their relations is that all
    three cats were outcrosses on the pedigrees for three generations,
    and the first two showed several father/daughter, mother/son matings.
    If the disease in question is in fact hereditary, perhaps what happened
    is that the gene or genes that caused it began with the inbred cats and
    and then proliferated throughout the line.  So, when two carrier cats
    were bred they produced affected offspring.  It doesn't matter that
    they were outcrosses to one another; if the genes are there then the
    defect eventually rears it's head. Pedigrees, in my opinion, cannot
    alert the breeder of potential problems in the line. I used to believe
    an entire line should be culled if two cats produced a problem but
    that isn't necessarily true either.  A breeder must be selective in
    mating the individual cats.  Now, do I think I can do better
    than the breeders working hard to eliminate undesirables from their
    lines?  NO!!  And I give them a whole lot of credit for contiuning on
    and looking into the problems instead of giving up.  My problem lies
    with those breeders who don't care, refuse to educate themselves, and
    look the other way when something happens.
    
    Both breeders I got my cats from felt terrible about my losses and
    offered a replacement kitten.  In the case of the Ragdolls, the
    replacement kitten died too, and I was reimbursed the purchase price of
    the cat.  Seeing as the vet bills were over a thousand dollars, not to
    mention the normal care received such as neutering, vaccines, etc.,
    the $350 the breeder gave me did not line my pockets either.  Murdock's
    breeder has been very sympathetic and offered another kitten.  I was
    not given the option of getting my money back and know that she doesn't
    have it to reimburse me even if I asked.  We still have a very good
    rapport and I know she will never renig on her offer.  That means a
    lot.  I'm sure I would never get that sort of guarantee from most of
    the breeders who advertise cross bred or no papers kittens in the want
    ads and newspaper.  Most of them don't even require a contract be
    signed upon purchase.  So, in retrospect, buying from a legitimate,
    responsible breeder usually means that they will stand behind
    their kittens in the event of a tragedy.
    
    I'd also like to point out that the folks in this conference are all
    doing the best they can by their cats whether they breed them or don't. 
    There are no guarantees on anything in life.  We take our chances and
    hope for the best.  It's been hard for me personally, but I am learning
    that as humans who love and hurt and make mistakes we have to learn to
    forgive each other when things go wrong in spite of it all.
    
    I hope this helps you to understand my feelings better, Valerie.
    
    --Roberta
    

    Roberta's story helps to support the argument for inbreeding.  If the
    hypertrophic cardio was genetically transmitted, then an inbreeding
    early in the line should have brought that to light.  I am not talking
    mother/son, father/daughter, but I would say a brother/sister mating
    would have had the highest degree of homozygosity and if the trait had
    been present as a recessive, that type of breeding would have brought
    it to light.  
    
    Bringing the problem to light early on would have prevented the trait
    from being passed recessively for generations only to pop up
    generations and years later as a problem that was deeply rooted in the
    breed.
    
    This is all in theory of course.  Many breeders, upon bringing in a new
    line, will do a series of test breedings (usually brother/sister), to
    check the new line for recessive genetic problems *before* using that cat
    to any great extent in their breeding programs.
    
    Up until just recently, all my breedings were outcrosses.  Five
    generation outcrosses.  Kalliste, my former stud cat and the basis of
    my breeding program, died this year of hypertrophic cardio.  As Roberta
    has stated, it is unknown whether this disease is genetic in nature or
    not.  It is for this reason that I will be doing some test breedings
    with my new boy, Nepenthe, before using him as the basis of my new
    program.  Kalliste was the product of a total outcross too, but he died
    anyway.  Outcrossing does not guarantee kittens that are any healthier
    than line-bed or inbred kittens.
    
    There are no guarantees that any kitten will live to be 20 years old,
    but responsible breeders will stand behind the kittens they breed, and
    offer some sort of compensation if something should go wrong.  In most
    cases, that comes in the form of another kitten rather than
    reimbursement of money, depending on how long the buyer had the cat.
    
    Val, will be happy to discuss different breeding methods with you in
    mail.
    
    Jo

a cat lover's thoughts:

I feel that the breeding clubs/organizations could aid the overall health of
the gene pools out there if they established sensible guide-lines limiting
the amount of line-breeding acceptable in a registerable litter.  If guide
lines had always been in place, and if some form of inforcement/inducement
had also been in place, perhaps the "potentially genetic" problems we see
in some breeds of cats would not exist.  This is not to imply that I feel
that always out-breeding will eliminate the problems like cardio, etc. -
the laws of chance will get you sometimes.  However, I grew up in a family
that was deeply involved in breeding weimerarners and I learned very early
that line-breeding can be a dual-edged sword ---far too sharp for most
folks to play with.  In fact, the reason that weimerarners have remained one
of the more robust breeds of dogs is that the registration restrictions
on the breed completely banned line-breeding...the litters could not be 
registered if bred within 5 generations of relationship.  Now, I believe that
these restrictions have been softened - and the dogs are cropping up with
cardio, displaysia, and auto-immune problems.  Of course, the breedings are
also throwing far fewer "throw-backs" in litters; ie, black pups, or pups
with longer coat than standard, or pups with off color coats.  Now, when a
litter of weimerarners are bred, the breeder gets a full litter of pups that
appear to meet the breed standard....with variations in height/length being
the only discrepancies.

I know that a reputable breeder can breed superior animals with line-breedings,
as long as the stock used is healthy to begin with, and as long as the
line-breeding is not continued too far down the family tree....out-breedings
still appear to offer the best probability of maintaining robust breeding
stock.

I think the solution is to try and take the best of both paths...line
breeding to establish and hold type, out-breeding to maintain robust breeding
stock.  Again, perhaps the standards should address this issue and offer
restrictions for the less informed breeders out there in order to protect the
gene pool for all breeders.

    I wanted to make a comment about "backyard breeders" vs breeders who
    produce a different style of cat from the breed standard.  I think
    there is a BIG difference between the two.  As someone pointed out
    previously, not everyone likes the wedge-head siamese or the pig-nosed
    persian.  I feel that one can be a responsible breeder and breed
    high quality healthy cats that don't adhere strictly to a breed
    standard IN SOME CASES.   Perisans/Himmys and Siameses are actually
    the only two cases that come to mind right now.  
    
    I recently heard of a woman who breeds Himmys to make money to send
    her kids to college.  According to the person who was talking to me
    this woman regularly loses a certain percentage of her litters to
    disease or other problems.  Also apparently these cats had fairly
    extreem faces with tiny nostrils and VERY runny eyes and apparent
    respiratory troubles.  I know from my dealings with Cindy Gerry
    that one can produce an extreem look with large nostrils and relatively
    clear,dry eyes.  So here is an example of someone breeding to breed
    standard (extreem face) and producing unhealthy, low quality kittens.
    
    So the point is that just because someone isn't producing strictly
    to the breed standard don't automatically label them a "backyard
    breeder".  There are alot of other factors to consider.
    
    On another subject - Another thing I find frustrating about the
    irresponsible and backyard breeders is that as a result of their
    activities, I have received some pretty hostile responses from
    SOME shelter people when they found out I was a breeder.  Their
    attitude in a nutshell was "There is not such thing as a responsible
    breeder."
      N
    

    I had intended to do more work on my Guide to Buying a Purebred Cat
    but I've just not gotten around to it so I'm going to enter it as
    a base note so folks can read and comment on it.  
      Nancy

    I would like to comment about the Himmies/Persians I have seen at
    the shows. MOST have the extreme look "Pig faces" and runnie eyes.
    The person showing seems to be constantly cleaning the corners of
    the cats eyes and the fur underneath to take the stain out/off.
                                        
    Ask any vet who certainly knows more about the structure of the cat
    and they will say, this is not healthy. In my book called, All about the 
    Himalayan Cats, it mentions several times how this has been damaging to 
    the breed and has been detrimental all around.
    
    I agree with Nancy, because a breeder breeds the open face look
    which is not the breed standard, this doesn't make them an
    unresponsible breeder. I have two himmies. Ming came from a cattery
    that doesn't breed the extreme look but she does have a break.
     She was shown in CFF/CFA to Grand Champion in her earlier
    life, (she is now 9) so it must have been at that time the breed
    standard was different from now.  We didn't receive any papers when
    we got Mr. Miyagi (don't know if he had any or not and it didn't
    matter) he face is definately the old, open face look. He never
    has any problems with his eyes while occasionally I do have to clean
    Mings. I suspect her's at time maybe due to a hair in her eye as she
    has the cottonie coat.
    
    IF I were ever to go out and buy a himmie I would NEVER buy a pig
    face one. I dislike this look in all the persian/himmies and of course
    this in my own opinion. 
    
    I would like to say in closing, HURRAY, for those breeders who say
    to heck with the breed standard, I want to breed a healthy cat more
    than I want to breed what is in fashion now.
    
    Barbara   

    Barbara, you should also point out that Miyagi was placed with you due
    to his previous owner giving him up, who wasn't a breeder.  Just to
    clarify in case folks thought you purchased him from a "no papers"
    breeder.
    
    One more comment to add to Barbara's note.  I once had the unfortunate
    pleasure of witnessing a persian style cat with an extreme nose break,
    catch a bad cold.  The poor thing couldn't even breath or sneeze
    because his nose was too short.  He was sitting on the floor throwing
    his head back terrified and confused and almost began hyperventilating! 
    He was rushed to the vet who immediately began cursing the breeders who
    breed for such extreme faces.  An antihistimine (Benadryl) was
    administered as well as 1/8% baby nosedrops to keep his nose clear.
    
    A Persian breeder once told me that the break between the eyes is
    actually healthier for the cat than the less extreme breaks.  I have
    trouble believing that.  Any human walking around with their nose
    between their eyes would be considered deformed!  Why subject the
    animals to it?!  I think that anyone who ventures into breeding animals
    should first sit down and consider what would be
    acceptable/unacceptable from a human standpoint and then apply that to
    their breeding programs.  This includes everything from excessive
    linebreeding/inbreeding (incest is illegal folks!) to creating new
    looks that border on disfigurement.
    
    --Roberta
     
     

    FYI, there is an association, "Traditional Siamese Breeders and
    Fanciers Association", which is dedicated to preserving the old-style
    Siamese and other breeds.  I have belonged to this group for about
    a year, specifically because my two Siamese are very old (19 this summer)
    and I do not like the new Siamese.  The gene pool is good size - about
    300 -, and the catteries are located through the U.S. (including Hawaii) 
    and Canada.  Most breeders have been in business since the mid-1980's.
    
    What is interesting is that there are other breeders interested in
    joining the association - Persian, Himmies, Ragdoll, etc.  So there
    must be quite a few breeders who are unhappy with the current breed
    standards.  If that's true, how do the breeders go about changing the
    standards?  
    
    Gaining acceptance by the various organizations is another story, and
    we all feel it will be a long battle.  The traditional Siamese can be
    shown as a separate breed, called (I believe) "Classic" (note that
    Siamese cannot be part of the name).
    
    If you are interested in learning more about this association, please
    check the classsifieds.  Dianne Finnerman is the secretary, it's $12
    for the year, which includes a monthly newsletter and a list of
    the breeders and fanciers.
    
    Regards,
    
    

    I believe that CFF is openning up a class for traditional siamese.
    
    Since Cindy Gerry isn't here any more and Diane Levin hasn't seen
    this note I'll say a little in defense of "extreme" faces.
    
    Having had a Cattyshack exotic and having cuddled my feline nephew,
    Alex, numerous times, I can tell you that it IS possible to breed for
    an extreem face and still have full nostrils.  Alex has NO breathing
    problems whatsoever.  His eyes do run a bit, but not much.
    
    Cindy was telling me that she's found that by breeding the break
    a bit higher the eyes don't run nearly as much.  
    
    My point is that a good, experienced breeder will find a way to keep
    to the breed standard without sacrificing health.  
      
    I'm hardly an expert on this type of cat tho so take all this as
    my 2 cents worth.
      Nancy

    NDC -- I should have qualified my last entry by stating that I do like
    the open look that Cin is breeding.  Her cats are by no means fierce
    looking mutants like some of the pig faced persians on the show circuit
    today.  I have a picture of Marlene's Bailey tacked up on my wall and
    he has an adorable, wide open look.  I like that look!  When I say
    longer nosed I don't mean long nosed.  My preference is for a cat with a
    short nose, big eyes and a wide muzzle.  Doesn't matter what breed it
    is; that's what I look for when choosing a cat.  Now when a cat chooses
    me it's a whole different story :^).
    
    I'm sorry if I offended the breeder and owners of Cin's cats.  I have
    always liked the look Cin is breeding for.
    

    
    I was going to stay out of this, but hey, I cannot keep my mouth closed
    when it comes to Exotics!  BTW Roe, I'm sure there was no offense taken
    by any of us who are owned by a Cattyshack kid!!!!  :')
    
    NDC brought up a very good point about the break.  It is not necessarily
    the nose length it is the placement of the break. Both Alex and Bailey 
    are not "extreme" cats, but do have a break which does cause minor
    tearing.
    
    As with everything else in this life, it is a matter of taste.  I
    personally do not care for the "pig faced" look.  But by the same token
    I don't want people to look at my Exotic and wonder if he is an American 
    Shorthair.  I was sitting in a ring at a cat show and couldn't figure
    out why there was a Maine Coon sitting smack dab in the middle of 
    the Persians.  It wasn't a Maine Coon... 
    
    I was a one woman crusade in showing Bailey to his grand.  I was out to 
    prove that a cat did not have to incredibly extreme to obtain the status 
    of a "grand" and that when a cat conforms to the standard overall, he/she 
    deserves that title. Once again, the "standard" is not a cat.  It is a 
    vision, an ideal example of what a specific breed should look like.
    
    I will be receiving my female soon that will begin my program.  Cin is
    my mentor.  We like the same "look" in our cats.  The breeder I am 
    getting my girl face likes the extreme "pig faced" look.  Therefore the 
    fault that he sees in her is her nose is not "high" enough.  My goal is
    to breed babies that have noses slight higher while keeping that sweet
    open expression. I have no illusions that breeding Exotics will make me
    rich.  I have experienced through ethical, dedicated breeders the blood
    sweat and tears that goes along with the territory.
    
    Soon I will be entering the ranks of "those breeders".  As with other
    groups of people that provide a service whether they be doctors,
    dentists, car mechanics or breeders, there are the "good" ones and the 
    "not so good"ones.  All I ask is that each of them/us be judged on
    their own merit and not be judged by misconceptions and stereotypes.
    
    

IMHO, and I do wish to stress "humble" here because I am NOT an expert on
breeding, I dream of a day when I can attend a cat show and see cats that:

	1) have healthy looking eyes; regardless of breed, a cat should
	   have bright CLEAR eyes (sorry, folks, even a little tearing
	   is NOT okay in my opinion - I have allergies and I KNOW how
	   "a little tearing" feels...MISERABLE).

	2) have shiny, warm, cat-suitable coats (I'm NOT comfortable 
	   with a "hairless" cat, it doesn't look like a survival 
	   characteristic to me)

	3) have reasonable robust physical structures.  I am not adverse
	   to the more graceful, lean "oriental" look...I HAVE one...but,
	   the siamese I am seeing these days are SO extreme they look
	   fragile (and, according to some people, they ARE fragile - my
	   vet has seen a rash of broken limbs in the last few years and
	   she has estimates as high as 85% of these patients are the
	   extreme oriental types).  I cannot remember when I've ever
	   heard of an indoor-only cat breaking a leg prior to this.

In short, I would like to see the HEALTH AND SURVIVABILITY OF THE CAT become 
the PRIMARY and MOST "VALUED" characteristic of a pedigreed cat.  This 
obviously isn't the case currently - if it was, I would bet that 75% of the 
Persians out there would be disqualified due to runny eyes and some level 
of obvious breathing distress.  I also wonder how many orientals would pass a 
skeletal diagnosis.

I don't know how to make this dream a reality, but as a cat lover/fancier/fan,
if anyone knows where I can begin, I will be glad to roll up my sleeves and
begin.

    Re; fierce looking mutants
    
    There's an ad in the current issue of Cat Fancy (I think) for a flea
    powder or some such, with a large picture of a Persian face-on
    and the caption "If you don't buy product X right away to get rid of
    these fleas, my next nap is in your underwear drawer."
    

    As a breeder, I get tired of hearing folks make generalizations about
    breeds of cats.  Not all persians and exotics have runny eyes, or
    breathing problems, not all siamese have brittle bones, not all siamese
    are skinny, not all folds have tail problems, and not all manx have
    bladder and bowel problems.
    
    There are definitely extremes in the dog world and the cat world.  Not
    everyone has to like all the different breeds.  Personal taste created
    some of the different breeds.  Mutation created others.  If you don't
    want to see a breed of cat that you don't care for at a show, either
    don't go to the show, or just pass by that cat's cage and move on to the
    next.  Not everyone is going to like every breed.
    
    I don't even breed persians or siamese, but I do get defensive and
    upset when I hear people that don't like those breeds making derogatory
    statements about them.  This happens a lot at shows.  Some of my best
    friends have these breeds.  I put myself in their shoes and see how it
    feels to have someone making these remarks about the cats that I love.
    
    Nancy is right.  Extreme does not necessarily mean unhealthy.
    
    Some of you mentioned watery eyes as a sign of poor health of persians.
    Well, that may not be the case.  I have a birman that has trouble with
    her eyes watering and it has nothing to do with a nose break or a
    short nose.  It has to do with an allergy.  Also, some breeds of dogs
    have problems with eyes that water and tear.  Saw one on TV last night
    on that show about America's Pets.  It was a white poodle.  It had a
    very long nose, but it's eyes still teared.  That doesn't mean that the
    dog had been poorly bred, or that it had a nose too short, or a break
    too high.  It's face was very moderate.
    
    Jo

    I should also mention that some Scottish folds have runny eyes,
    especially as kittens  - Angel was like that - it has to do with the
    shape of the eye.  I don't consider it unhealthy either.  Most 
    Scottish Folds, however, outgrow it.  
    
    For me, Healthy is the #1 concern in my cattery.  I will NOT sacrifice
    health for a breed standard.  I will also add however, that people
    have different definitions of healthy as we are seeing with this
    discussion of runny eyes.
    
    IMHO - and mine's humble too cause I'm no persian/exotic expert -
    the slightly runny eyes aren't a health problem - undersireable, yes
    and something to be worked on, but not a health problem.  
    
    Respiratory problems, on the other hand, are very serious and no
    breed standard or number of ribbons justifies deliberately breeding cats
    with such serious troubles.  
    
    That's just my views as a (New and inexperienced) breeder.
      Nancy DC
    

    
    When I brought Bailey for his well visit when he reached the West
    coast, the vet walked in the room held Bailey's head in his hands
    checked his eyes and said "great drainage".  I just stood there and
    said  "huh"? He was pleased that there WAS tearing and there was no 
    clogging of ducts and no congestion. The tearing is not such a big
    deal. It is really at it's worst after he eats or if he is extremely
    content and purring away.  It's not unlike having to clean up a
    child....
    
    

    My definition of unhealthy tearing is any tearing that could be
    cultured and would *grow*.  Most tearing is just the eyes watering. 
    
    Kyrielle's eyes would water if someone started smoking, or if I used a
    brand of litter in her box that wasn't dust free.  She would also tear
    after eating.  Her tearing was not due to illness, and couldn't be
    cultured.  She didn't have a nose break, or a short stub nose.  She was
    a Birman with a moderate head type.  It was just the way she was.
    
    I tend to judge each cat as an individual, much like I would judge
    people.  I try not to make generalizations about groups of people, and
    wouldn't make them about breeds of cats either.
    
    Jo