Conference misery::feline_v1

    How about one of you picking up and holding the cat while the other
    lets the dogs out?
    

    A cats is a cat is a cat!  It's natural for a cat TO WANT TO BE
    OUTDOORS!!!!  If the cat wants out that much why not let him.  Let
    the birds take their chance and let kitty live the way nature intended.
    
    

        You could always take him out on a harness once a day.  Or.....let
    him OUT once a day.  Put a flea collar on him, but forget the bell. 
    They don't really work.  Most of the birds that come to the feeders are
    so domesticated that the bell doesn't really bother them.    I let mine
    out once a day, in the morning.  Actually, my husband lets them out
    when he gets up and I let him in when I get up.  He's out for about l
    1/2 hours.  Even though he bolts for the door the rest of the day, he
    is not allowed out.  I have to pick him up when I let the dog out or
    he'll excape.  
    

    If the main reason for keeping your cat indoors is to save the birds
    than I would think the bell is the best way to go. As mentioned in the
    previous reply "if the cat wants out THAT much than let him out",
    however, if you choose not to, a cat will adjust to being an indoor
    cat.  How long has the cat been an indoor cat? It will take some time
    for the kitty to get used to it if it has not been inside long.
     Cats CAN be extremely happy indoors as well!! Playing with your cat
    a lot more often helps here.  My cat is a very happy cat and he likes
    being indoors........I think nature intended for my kitty to live
    indoors.

    Good luck on whatever you decide to do.

    Pamela

    The trusty old squirt bottle works well.  Thunder likes to escape and
    I have to re-inforce the *no going outside rule* occasionally.  I have
    the water bottle near the door and pick it up whenever I go in or out
    the door.  It only takes a couple of days to remind her.
    
    Sandi and the Storm Troopers
    

Bogie has been an "indoor" cat from the day we got him.  But, he still seems
insistent on going outside.  We have tried squirting him.  We have even tried
soaking him when he was outside in the cold weather hoping that he would 
associate wet and cold with outside.  No good.  This cat is either too dumb
or too stuborn.

It looks like the bell, and a little more persistence.

Ed..

well, the birds have enough trouble without your cat helping so I would 
suggest you keep at it....as the results of letting him out can also be him 
getting squashed under tires or torn up by dogs and a bell on his collar 
won't save him from either of these problems.  I found that my most
stubborn case learned to stay away from the door when I started throwing a
can 1/2 full of dried beans at his feet.  I washed and dried a big dog food
can and put the beans in -- then sealed the can with a dog food plastic lid
from the vets.  A few doses of this and the cat ran the other way when the
dogs went to the back door.  I also practiced (with the help of my roomy)
by standing on the outside of the door with a spray bottle full of ICE 
water.  Marge opened the door and I sprayed the cat in the face - and kept
spraying until he had moved completely out of the room.  A few sessions of
this with the command "STAY BACK" worked to keep him back.  Once he learned
to hesitate, I could just scoop him up when I let the dogs out.  After 
awhile, he stopped caring.

Teach your cat and teach yourselves to be alert....and if you have a dog
door, you should keep it locked.  Let the dogs out manually - getting up
and down is good exercise for you....8^}

    NOTE .7
    
    I don't like to comment on how others treat their pets but THAT'S
    AWFUL.  Ice Water!!  Tin cans full of beans!! Why not the rack or
    thumb (I mean paw) screws?
    
    

>    I don't like to comment on how others treat their pets but THAT'S
>    AWFUL.  Ice Water!!  Tin cans full of beans!! Why not the rack or
>    thumb (I mean paw) screws?
    
a can of beans thrown at his/her feet makes NOISE - it doesn't kill.
ice water in the mouth is startling, not painful - a cat moves far too
fast for anyone I know to ever administer more than a few drops of water
to any cat I've ever met.  again, It doesn't hurt and it doesn't kill.

a car/truck coming down the road at any speed kills.  Cats have evolved
their hearing and vision over millenia to be predators...neither their
brains nor the sense are adapted to dealing with motorized vehicles.
I think it is far more dangerous/cruel to set a kitten/cat out in an
environment where the potential for maiming and/or death is as high
as it is in the urban/suburban USA....clearly in evidence to me by the
bodies I see by the road.

Each to his/her own.

    Let's not let this note become a conflict.  I understand both the
    points of view expressed -- I wouldn't hurt my cats for the world,
    and I've had people be very critical my putting
     Tabasco sauce on electrical wires to prevent my cats chewing
    the wires.  Well, I have found no other method, it only takes one
    taste, and the alternative is letting the cat electrocute itself.
    If you'd found electrical wires, as I had before I started this,
    with 20 tooth marks in them....
                  

    re: .10 - I agree.  There are plenty of notes in here already
    discussing indoor vs outdoor.  The author of the basenote didn't
    ask us for our opinions on whether her cat should go out or not.
    
    And lets not forget that we all love our cats and wouldn't hurt
    them so please be careful with your "accusations". If you have
    an issue please take it offline or at least be VERY careful
    in your wording.  Acusing someone of cruelty to their cats
    is pretty inflammatory.              -------
              ------------
    
    Now that I've put in my 2 cents (and NO, I'm not a moderator),
    back to the basenote.  
    
    There are a number of discussions on how to let your cat enjoy
    the outdoors without endangering either the cat or the wildlife.
    Options include leash training, enclosed or second story decks,
    outside wire enclosures.  
    
    Having a cat that bolts out the door when you open it can be
    dangerous and is at least, annoying.  Even those with indoor/outdoor
    cats often have specific times when they want their cats indoors.
    It is important to train your cat not to bolt.  We're lucky and
    have a hallway between the kitchen and outside so there are actually
    two doors.  Makes life ALOT easier.  But I still have trouble with
    a few of them running outdoors.  One word of advice...Do NOT scold
    the cat once you've caught it.  Yelling "BAD CAT" as the cat runs
    out the door is appropriate, but once its outside punishing it will
    only encourage the cat to run away from you and your goal is to
    catch it.  We have trained our cats to the phrase "IN THE HOUSE".
    The all know what it means, some of them even go in the house
    when we tell them to  ;^)  (Several of my cats are leash trained.)
      
    Good luck.  
      Nancy DC
    

    RE: notes .8, .9, .10, .11   
    
    It was not my intent to accuse anyone of mistreating their pet.
    I was genuinely appalled--I am a softy with my cats, but then
    I have never had them chew electrical cords or lived anywhere where
    I have been forced to keep them inside for their own safety.
    
    I apologize if I offended anyone, it was not my intent.
                 
    

    *I* can understand where you're coming from Rosemary, I'm a softie w/
    my kids too! And if it wasn't for the hallway between my outside door &
    my inside door, I wouldn't know WHAT to do!
    
    I can relate w/ the rest of you too, so I hope you don't think I'm
    knocking your methods of discipline. I'm just a big wimp when it 
    comes to my kids!
    
    I *DID* spank Callie today, which is something I *NEVER* do, but she
    sunk her teeth & claws RIGHT INTO my feet while I was in bed this
    morning! TALK ABOUT A RUDE AWAKENING! I *HATE* when she does that,
    and I don't want an infection from her dirty little litter box paws!
    
    I think she got the hint!!!
    
    Bonnie

    re: .12 - Thanks for writing that.  :^)  Its nice to see things
    come to a peaceful resolution in this file.  
    
    You know, years ago, when I first got Mao (make that 11 years ago),
    she was a HOLY TERROR!  And I used to spank her regularly.  I would
    NEVER think of hitting any of my cats now and it horrifies me to
    think that I used to do that.  (I was always careful not to hit too
    hard)  The point is that over the years I've learned better ways
    to come to a "mutual understanding" with the cats.  I find the squirt
    bottle to be a much better alternative.  And... Mao is considerably
    calmer and better behaved than when she was a kitten. 
    
    I guess there's alot of learning to having pets :^)
    

    Oh - one other point.  I'm something of a softie too with the cats
    (tho with 20 you can't be too soft), but when it comes to the safety
    of my cats I'm "hard as nails".  I think my cats know that when I
    really insist on something, its important.  
      At least I like to think they do ;^)
    

Well, my fears were realized.  My youngest cat got out and I didn't put him right
back in.  While I was feeding the horses and watching the dogs, I saw Bogie
playing with something.  I went over to check and found he had KILLED one of the
little chippies that hang out around my house.  I was so upset.  I love having
the little animals visit.  I put the cat right in the house.

He seems to be a little better, but he still has a long way to go.  It is
possible that I am a bit more careful about not letting him out, also.

We went looking for a bell, but all we could find was something the size of the
liberty bell (compared to the cat), and something that even Bogie would not
hear.

Ed..

cats are carnivores - we are omnivores....we don't understand how strong the
"hunt and kill" instinct is ingrained in the true carnivores of the world
because we have evolved with a much less demanding imperative to find meat.
If your cat gets outside, no matter how well-fed he/she is, the cat WILL
hunt and kill.....the cat will probably NOT eat unless hungry, but THE CAT
WILL KILL.

If you wish to preserve the wildlife in your vicinity, watch your door
carefully and keep your cat in unless/until you can train him/her to
walk on a harness and leash.  Or, get the cat a large Tokyo or breeder's
cage and let the cat enjoy the fresh air while still protecting the
chipmunks and squirrels and birds....and all the animals that depend on
THEM for their food.

caveat: never leave a leashed/caged cat alone while outdoors...there be
dangers there for them as well.