Conference misery::feline_v1

    Oh good a contraversy.  Just from another point of view just who
    is being thin skined here?  For the very points you made I fail
    to see the need to leave the conference just cause we have incomplete
    information. We all work for DEC remember and part of the fun of
    being in the company is filling the information void. Company policy
    getting you down, try and change it or at least steer a course clear
    of collision.  I was just an organizer for a pet fair which brought
    together all types of people, pet, and groups of many varieties
    so you can imagine the many conflicting interests. But rule #1 was
    that everybody had an equal right to be there, an equal oportunity
    to give opinions about good and bad elements of the fair. All other
    rules had their down side but were still needed for the good of
    all. Good of the many outweigh the good of the one, I've heard in
    some movie. So lets not make any general assumptions that the file
    is loosing its charter of exchanging information since like gravity
    if its really important sooner or later your going to hear about
    it even if not on the file.  Since I can hardly keep up with notes
    to be read, needs to contribute to, information needed I hardly
    think that there is a long list of volunteers to be moderator anyway.
    So let's be Americans and keep participation the primary goal rather
    than the perfect free society that can't ever be. Lunch anyone?
    

      I have to agree with Mr. McQueeney.. I question the need to shut down
    certain discussions simply because there is an element that does noT
    agree with the discussion or some aspects of it. 
    
      Has Digital ""Policy" now decided that "freedom of speech", as
    defined in the U.S. Consititution, is invalid? Is someones disagreement
    now to be condoned?? "I do not agree with what has been stated in Note
    4455555, therefore I will complain, and I'll shut them up!!" Is THIS
    the "New-DEC" way? Are we now a totalitarian society?? 
    
      Sure, we must have some bounds of propriety, and we MAY even need to
    have some education in certain cases about how to express something,
    but the past few weeks it's almost become a situation where the
    conference has become a series of blank numbers...
    
      I've cut my participation WAY down...I like to converse and exchange
    views with OPEN minded people, not bigots...
    
      John Mc

    re: .1 - I think that Bob has made the decision for himself that
    FELINE is no longer a worthwhile way for him to spend his time. That's
    his choice and, IMHO, his leaving is effecting no one but himself.
    He did feel that he wanted to explain his reasons to us and that is
    also his perogative.  
    
    It us one thing to flare about something without giving it alot
    of thought whether that flare takes the form of a reply or mail
    to the moderator.  I feel that when one is going to impact something
    that effects alot of us one should give it a little thought.  Such
    impulsive action could be considered "thin skinned".  
    
    I suspect, however, that Bob's feelings have been building for a
    while now and his actions were only taken after a great deal of
    thought.  Personally, I don't think he's being thin skined.
    
    Just my .02
      Nancy DC

    
    I'm not gonna go into any detail.  Opinions are just that.  We can read
    them and shakes our heads to agree or disagree.  That's.......the
    perogative of all.  I understand that the moderators have their job.
    
    But on both sides............
    
    You, we, are........loosing sight of this FILE.
    
    			"FELINES - Kitties! -- Fur-Faces!"
    
    I don't think any bicking and nit-picking would be nice if our little
    loved ones knew!
    
    It should be just made, simple.  If you want to read it do so, if not,
    go on to the next.
    
    Let's get back to warm fuzzy talks................
    
    Carol
    
    			Scruffy and the Dudley Road Gang
    		who have had such trememdous help here...........
    
    

    I hope Bob reconsiders his decision to leave.  I also appreciate the
    work the moderators put in -- its a tough job.  I'm also concerned
    about the amazingly large number of notes that seem to be being set
    hidden lately;  I respectfully suggest that the moderators consider the
    possibility that they're going over board, and let FELINE revert
    to its former open discussion character with only notes that some
    shelter or outside company might consider slander being set hidden,
    and when a note is hidden, some explanation of why be entered.
    
    (Just because FELINE discussions aren't always full of socially
    redeeming content, doesn't mean we don't enjoy them :-)
    

As a former moderator of this file, I have to admit to being very
partisan here.  There's something that many of you may not be
aware of.  Deb is truly working 60 hour weeks at various customer
sites and doesn't get into this file very often.  Mary travels
alot for her job.  And Joanne just mentioned that she's in class.
Since they're not around alot to discuss issues, it's safest to
set things hidden and work problems out later than to let things
run their course and pray that no one steps over the line.

When Deb and I were moderators, we worked within 50 feet of each
other and could talk over moderation issues quickly and make quick
decisions.  And people were always accusing us of being repressive
then as well.  It's a thankless job and I'm glad I don't have it
any more - the pleasures of moderating this file were so few and
far between.  

But the point I'm making is that it was a different DEC last year 
than it is now. Everyone now has to work *much* harder to make this
company continue to bring in some sort of profit.  And Deb, Joanne,
and Mary are doing just that.  If the moderation of this notesfile
suffers in some people's opinion as a result of that, then I can't
say I agree with what you think is important.

Pam

I think the problem many of us are having now days is the fact that this
society (USA, anyway) as a whole had forgotten how to turn off the TV show
that offends, change the station on the radio when the opinion/music/commercial
is not to our liking, not buy the book that isn't, IN OUR OPINION, "right"
about something.  Instead, we immediately, leap up and shout, "STOP IT ALL
RIGHT NOW!!!".  And, more and more often, is is ALL stopped just to keep a
minority quiet.  The problem isn't just with our notes conferences, it's
endemic to the social structure around us.

I've run into notes that I disagree with -- I just don't comment unless I
can figure out some way of trying to offer a constructive idea without posing
a heavy threat.  If I cannot figure out how to word it so it won't cause
deep ugly feelings....I just pass it up.  It doesn't "COST" me anything to 
not comment.  Lately, I've seen several notes that I couldn't comment on
because I knew I would only deepen the anger/frustration/denial of the
noter(s) participating.  Sometimes I've tried to "gently" add some information
when a noter has asked for what he/she is clearly not ready to handle, due
to ignorance.  Sometimes, that backfires on me.  When it does, I simply have
to go on past the rest of the string of notes.

It is unfortunate that the tyranny of the few is beginning to override the
interests of the many....and this is NOT the moderators' fault.  It's up
to us, noters, we get to decide what quality of communication exists here.

    Well, I guess it's time this one got set hidden.........
    

I think it's just Digital, as a company, in general. Alot of people are
upset/angry/frustrated by what's going on around them. They come to the
"fun" notesfiles to "get away from it all". Sometimes it's the tone that
it's written in -- not even intentionally -- that will offend someone.
I find myself lately becoming very negative, and it's because of the 
negativity that surrounds the organization! Alot of people are finding 
ways to "vent" their frustrations, and sometimes (IMHO) they get 
misdirected. So, as a result, some responses go down ratholes, and they
offend someone. I come to this notesfile because everyone here shares
a common interest -- they love cats! I'll just go to "next unseen" and
not reply to any notes that are "negative". I wasn't going to reply to
this one, but I love this file, and I really don't want to see it go
downhill over moderation!

I'm glad there are moderators, but I'm sure glad I'm not one of them!

Cheryl 

    Bob, goodbye and good luck to you.  I hope you'll come back to us
    someday soon if/when you feel you're ready to reenter FELINE.
    
    Jan

    I've had my troubles understanding the moderators in the past and
    its been difficult.  Sometimes I felt the reactions of the moderators
    were a bit harsh.  In time I began to understand the "rules" and to
    learn to work within them.  There ARE ways to get information out
    there to folks who need it WITHOUT violating the policies that protect
    Digital and this file.  You just need to be a little creative.  And
    you can't fault the moderators for doing their jobs.  As frustrating
    as it can be at times.  They may not always be "right" but they
    have one helluva hard job and I wouldn't want to have to do it.  I
    respect what they do.
    
    I must say that I agree with those who have commented that the problem
    is not necessarily with the moderators but often with the participants.
    There's a note in here somewhere that I wrote in an attempt to 
    analyze some of the problems with electronic communications and 
    some of the unintentional things that can get communicated if the
    writer isn't very careful.  I'll go find it.  
    
    
    When I had a CB Radio, one of the things I used to notice is that
    there would be days when everyone would be happy and joking, then
    days when everybody was all business and days when everyone seemed
    to be frustrated and in a bad mood.  It made me wonder just how
    pervasive these "global moods" could be.  I'd like to have that
    CB radio now, just to monitor those things.  I'd be willing to
    guess that I'd find alot of those days when everyone was in a bad
    mood.
    
    So, I guess what I'm saying in my verbose manner, is we all have to
    make an effort to THINK before we write.  Its OK to react, but its
    not ok to blindly blurt that reaction into this notesfile.  
    
    The people in this file do a *tremendous* amount of good and I'd
    hate to see that come to an end.  There are days when its all that
    keeps my faith in humankind; and I couldn't do the things I've
    been able to do without the support of this file.
    
    I SINCERELY hope that Bob will not leave - or will be back soon.
    If it seems that this file is being overmoderated then I think we
    ALL need to think about why that is.  Its much too easy to blame
    the moderators because they're so visible.
    
    Nancy

    Since, in the infinite "wisdom" of this notes moderators, my last note
    created too much commotion and was set hidden, I have decided to leave
    "Albania" and head for a democratic "country".  One where the right to
    freedom of speech is not infringed upon by the "powers that be".
    
    Me and my kitty will move on to a more "user friendly" environment.
    
      So, Adios. 

>    So let's be Americans and keep participation the primary goal rather
>    than the perfect free society that can't ever be. Lunch anyone?
 

	I decline the offer of being an American, thanks anyway,


	Heather   

    It occurred to me in the middle of the night to wonder
    how the policy of setting notes hidden until the moderators can
    confer (confur?) about them interacts with reading notes using
    Next Unseen.  I suggest a little experiment, which I can't do myself
    since it takes two:
    
        moderator A enters a note and then sets it hidden
        person B Opens feline and reads past the hidden note using
            Next Unseen
        moderator A un-sets the note hidden
        I think there's a 50-50 chance that person B never sees that
            note again as s/he continues reading with Next Unseen
    
    So this policy of hiding so many notes and then unhiding some of them
    is actually possibly "permanently" hiding even notes that you decide
    later are okay.
                       

>    So this policy of hiding so many notes and then unhiding some of them
>    is actually possibly "permanently" hiding even notes that you decide
>    later are okay.
                       
according to notes documentation, this is not true.  A note is set SEEN
in YOUR notebook...and is only set SEEN by your scan of the note or by
your decision to use the command SET SEEN.  A note is set HIDDEN in the
conference FILE, and is not avaiable to anyone until it is set UNHIDDEN.
This has no affect on your notebook.  If you attempt to scan a HIDDEN note, 
NOTES does not set it SEEN.  If you scanned the note prior to it being
set HIDDEN, NOTES has set it SEEN in your notebook.  If you use the
NEXT UNSEEN command on .2 of 5 replies when .2 is HIDDEN, then NOTES will
set .3, .4, .5  SEEN -- but only if they were not HIDDEN.  If HIDDEN, they
are not registered in your notebook at all.

(sorry, but I just taught a customer course on NOTES, so I have had to
field all these kinds of questions....I HAD to find some place to use this
new found knowledge!  8^})

    So, if a note is then set unhidden, it would become one of your
    "next unseen" notes, and you would then see it, right?  So, once
    unhidden, it would again be there for all to see.
    
    Jo

    Yes, we do learn something new when reading notes.  I not having
    been out of the country yet (willing to travel but poor of means)
    forgot that the network extends beyond our shores and that the
    American point of view isn't the only one. My appologies out there
    on the other side of the water. Albania will be my second stop after
    visiting my friends in GAO.

    
    I've been away from this notesfile for awhile as I'm busy
    preparing for a move back to the U.S.  I found this topic
    interesting because I'm hearing so much lately coming from
    "back home" regarding free speech issues. However I have
    done a quick look through the notesfile, and I wonder about
    the accuracy of what is being complained about - that too
    many noters are being "silenced." This to me is a big issue:
    if you only read occasionally you would definitely get the
    impression from this note that this notesfile has become
    a too-heavily edited one. Is this true?  I read in note
    4617.6 that Jo says only 1 note of the several in a group
    that were hidden was due to violation of DEC policy. Since
    that note, 2 more have been set hidden - 1 moved and the
    other unknown.
    I propose that either the author of this note be a little
    more specific - did 10 hidden-due-to-DEC-policy anger you? Did
    20?  or perhaps a moderator could give us an accurate number.
    I think that perhaps the large size of the file could just
    be resulting in a greater number of moved notes. (and
    in regards to that - can the moderators delete the
    base note after moving them - isnt that done in other notes
    files? hidden notes seem to result in assumptions as to the
    cause..)
    
    I really dislike seeing the moderators being flamed without
    some very good proof to back it up...  lets hear it...
    
    ellen
    

    Ellen, I want to thank you for taking the time to look at the facts and
    pointing out that folks are jumping to conclusions about the number of
    notes that are being deleted or set hidden.
    
    I think that your numbers are correct. there have been only two cases
    of notes getting hidden recently (one on which was an entire string
    which we shut down while we tryed to communicate with each other what
    to do; some of those notes have been unhidden).
    
    we have been trying to add some semblance of order to the file by
    moving notes. (By the way, there have been folks that have asked us
    to do that since the file is getting so difficult to find things in)
    Standard operating procedure it to let someone know when we move a
    note, but sometimes we get interupted before we can do it, and (rarely)
    we forget. So there has been a recent case of someone who's note was
    moved and not yet notified, posting a new note asking why her note
    was deleted. The person that moved it explained the oversight.
    
    
I  >  think that perhaps the large size of the file could just
   >  be resulting in a greater number of moved notes. (and
   >  in regards to that - can the moderators delete the
   >  base note after moving them - isnt that done in other notes
   > files? 
    
    As mentioned above, we have been moveing a lot of notes lately. There
    seems to be some glitch with the NOTES server on VAXWRK so that when
    we move a string of notes it sometimes leaves a "hole" in the file. A
    directory command shows a note and replies but you can't read them; I
    call these things "ghost notes" my self. Since I can't read the ghost
    note, I can't delete the directory entry. And since I haven't been able
    to isolate the circumstances causing these ghost entries, I'm a bit
    reluctant to report them to the NOTES developers. I suspect that
    because of all of these ghost entries scattered throughout the file
    in the past month a lot of people are getting the idea that the
    moderators are deleting entries. I'm pretty sure that we mentioned this
    pheonomon someplace else, but even if we didn't I think what annoys me
    the most is that some folks just want to think the worst and don't
    want to be bothered with little details like proof. (I could have sworn
    I brought this up the other day
    

    RE: .2
  I >have to agree with Mr. McQueeney.. I question the need to shut down
    >certain discussions simply because there is an element that does noT
    >agree with the discussion or some aspects of it. 
    
    Oh, by the way, Mr. McDonough, you might be interested in knowing that
    there were some people that felt that your notes on your dogs
    were out of context in this forum. While I agreed that they might be
    out of context, I also pointed out to the complaining parties that they
    were none offensive, many contributors to to the conferance enjoyed
    reading them so I saw no harm in leaving them there, and mentioned the
    use of the Next Unseen command (in fairness, I should point out that
    part of these objections were based on bandwith and the high volume
    of notes  that one must read in order to keep up with the file which,
    quite frankly, are valid observations.).
    
    I bring this up as an example that if we get a complaint we don't just
    shut things down in a bureaucratic fashion. We try to be objective
    when we get a complaint, and we try to be reasonable. 
    
    Deb

      
      Re .20
      
      I think there's a little more to the story than that. Notes 2.578,
    2.579, 2.582 and 2.583 are all specifically about my cats. In Note
    2.586 I was specifically ASKED to include the stories of my dogs. I
    expressed reservations about that in Note 2.587, and in 2.588 I was
    told to go ahead by BOOVX2::MANDILE, who I--maybe incorrectly--assumed
    was one of the moderators. 
    
      So I began note 4470 reluctantly, because in the back of my mind I
    expected some of the narrow and/or small-minded participants in this
    conference to have self-centered objections.
    
      The sort of rebuke that you have chosen to level at me in .20 simply
    reinforces my belief that Mr. McQueeny and Mr. Ensley are correct. 
    
      And I have removed the "offensive" note on my dogs..to leave it here
    now would be an insult to them...
    
      JM

    FWIW....I LOVE JM's doggie & kitty stories! 
    
    Bonnie

    Geez, I liked those dog stories.  I guess we're all Politically Correct
    now.  So much for FELINE's friendly atmosphere.
    

    RE: .21
    
    John,
    
    The way I read .2, I felt you were trying to imply that if someone
    complains, no matter what the moderators will shut the note down or
    delete it. And in re-reading it, I still feel that was the idea that
    you were trying to put across, the implication being that we were
    deleting notes. WE WERE NOT, BUT WE WERE FALSLY ACCUSED.
    
    I was trying to show that when someone sends a complaint or comment
    about a note or a topic, we try to look at each comment/complaint
    individually before we make a decision. There are a half a dozen cases
    I could have pointed out, but since I was responding to your reply, I
    thot it might make more of an impact if you heard that someone
    disagreed with the relavance of a note of you posted in the conference
    that  we didn't remove just because there was a complaint; in other
    words, we looked at things objectivly and make a reasonable decision,
    and in this case, it was IN YOUR FAVOR.
    
    Maybe my "rebuke" was a bit strong, but then, I think that your .2 was
    a pretty scathing note in which you implied the moderators were deleting
    notes, WHEN IT WASN'T TRUE. You didn't know what the problem was, you
    didn't ask, you just assumed and leveled the accusations. 
    
    Oh, and by the way, *I* liked the dog stories even if that note could
    be considered out of context.
    
    Deb

    *I* liked the dog stories too and I think I was the one who
    requested them in the first place.
    
    FWIW - I've been doing some thinking and I just wanted to post my
    observations.  This seems like a good place.  These comments
    are not directed at this note in particular they are just
    general observations of several notes and replies.
    
    
    Times are tough right now.  Not just at DEC but all over.  The
    general mood is bad.  Lots of folks are out of work.  Jobs are
    hard to come by, especially in Mass.  Also in Mass we've got a
    nasty deficit and trying to fix it isn't going to be pleasant.
    
    There are lots of repercussions from the recent war plus every
    day we hear about those poor folks in Bangla-desh and Ethiopia.
    
    Here at DEC we're experiencing the first layoffs in Dec's 33 year
    history and its not over yet.  We're all working ALOT harder and
    enjoying it ALOT less than we used to.
    
    None of this is new to you folks.  The point is that we've been
    under alot of stress and the general mood is contagious.  Humans
    in general are more irritable than they were a couple of years 
    ago.  They're frustrated and depressed and its going to come out.
    
    What we have to do is THINK more.  We *MUST* exercise a little more
    control.  It really seems these days that no matter what gets put
    in the file *somebody* gets upset about it.  Sometimes I feel
    that folks are "picking fights".  I think this is an expression of
    the stress and exhaustion that we're all feeling these days.
    
    So, Please folks.  I urge you to try and be more relaxed.  There
    are going to be tough issues to deal with and we do need to deal
    with them.  Let's try to bring a bit of sunshine back into this
    file and keep it a valuable and overall positive experience.  
    
    

    Where did the sunshine go???  Have we all turned into "read only
    noters"?   Let's bring back the warmth and friendship in this file.
    
    I enjoyed reading dog stories, hearing other peoples opinions (even
    if they were different then mine), and reading the loving stories
    about all the cats..which is something we all have in common.
    I really miss it!!
    
    Sandy

    =.26
    
    You must have been reading my mind because that's just about how I've
    been feeling the last week or so.  Dam*, if we all agreed on
    everythinig life would certainly be dull - wouldn't it.  The one thing
    that we have in common and that has brought us together is our cats and
    love of the same - lets share that love and respect with eachother and
    bring back the warmth and laughter that used to be.  Yes times are
    tough, more for some than for others, but one thing that we could count
    on was Feline to pick up those spirits - a place to turn to to so we
    could tune out from the 8-5 pain in the arse.  The "wet blanket"
    definitely needs to be hung out to dry.
    
    Let's just all treat eachother with the respect that we ourselves would
    like to be treated.  We are all here to share and to LEARN - some
    lessons must be given gently so that others may understand.
    
    Luv,
    
    Giudi