Conference misery::feline_v1

    I'd like to suggest a small change to the new moderation policy,
    which seems to prohibit warning people about bad shelters or
    letting people who let their cats breed know about pet overpopulation
    problems.  I suggest that in the first case, someone with  knowledge
    of something wrong with the shelter enter a reply saying something
    like, "anyone who wants to know about my experiences with this
    shelter please contact me offline." and that in the second case
    a polite note would be acceptable;  a lot of people genuinely don't
    realize the pain and suffering that they're contributing to by letting
    their cats breed, and a small polite informational note seems
    appropriate (not of course, if they've already indicated in their
    message that they know about the breeding controversy.)
    
    My blood runs cold at the idea of someone taking their cat to an
    abusive shelter because we didn't warn them about it.
    

    it went to 4457 - the base note about the Burger King cats.
    Pat
    

    I have a suggestion when a note is moved to another basenote- don't
    know if this can be done - but perhaps put a note pointing to where the
    basenote and replies have gone. On this note - I guessed it was the
    Burger King note file - but in other cases it might not as easy. I know
    the person who enters the basenote usuaslly gets a notification from
    the moderator - but perhaps with a pointer, then the
    remaining noters would know where to look.
    
    Just a suggestion.
                                              

    
    
    	I personally feel this is a very sad and horrible case of a cat
    	that needs immediate attention.  I think burying it at the end
    	of a note dated in March will not make many feliners notice it.
    	This cat needs help NOW and those who volunteered earlier in the
    	note won't even realize that it has not been taken care of.
    
    	I'm not criticizing the moderator, because many notes should
    	be bunched together, but this specific note is a desperate call
    	for help and time is VERY IMPORTANT to this cat.  Please make
    	this plea for help noticed and updated.
    
    	Thanks,
    
    	-dee
    

    The idea of moving notes to other spots is to avoid the file growing by
    leaps and bounds with new topics.  If we then create a topic that
    points the notes community to where the new note has been moved, we
    aren't helping the original problem.  When I move a note, I send a
    notice to the author of the note.  In the case of your reply to note
    4619, it was lost during the transfer, and I had to find it and get it
    entered into note 4457.  During that few minutes when I was searching
    for that one reply, I recieved mail questioning why the note was moved,
    where it went, and a whole topic on the subject was created here.
    
    It is our policy to be polite to noters and let them know if we make
    any changes in their notes.  One thing that I would like to point out
    though is that this file is HUGE!!  If you are entering a note about a
    topic that already exists, please check the keywords, or do a directory
    search before creating a new topic.  Many of the subjects that have
    been brought up in the last few months have been created and recreated
    in this file.  Let's use our keywords, guys.
    
    And, if you have a question or comment about the moderation of this
    file, I can always be reached offline.
    
    Jo

    Using the "next unseen" command to read notes would mean that any note
    in this conference would be seen during a session of reading Feline,
    regardless of whether that note was a new topic, or a reply to an
    existing topic.  When you read notes using "next unseen", you will see
    every entry into this file, in order of the time it was entered.
    
    Next unseen is the comma key (,) or paste key on your keypad on most
    keyboards.  If you haven't read notes using this method in the past,
    you may want to issue a set seen command first.  This will mark all the
    notes prior to the date that you choose as "seen", and will not pull
    them up when you use the next unseen command.  Since this file was
    created in 1984 or thereabouts, this might be a desireable thing to do.
    
    For example, if you wanted to start reading notes using next unseen,
    and wanted to mark any notes entered prior to January 1, 1991 as seen,
    you would type the following command:
    
    notes> set seen/before=01-jan-1991
    
    Then, when you used the next unseen key to read notes, the first note
    you would come to would be the first one entered on January 1st, 1991. 
    From there you could continue to use next unseen until all new notes
    had been read.  Eventually you would get to a point were you were
    reading only the notes entered that day, since you would have seen
    everything else.
    
    Jo

Sorry, it was me who moved 4619 to the end of the original note on the
Burger King kitties.  I had assumed upon reading the note that the noter 
had done a WRITE instead of a REPLY.  This happens quite frequently and 
then there will be follow-up notes asking that the note be moved.  I 
figured I'd avoid all that grief by just moving it.  In addition, it's
easier to keep all that info in one place because having 2 notes on the 
same topic tends to cause alot of confusion and needless proliferation.  

My apologies to all,
Pam (former co-mod of FELINE)

    RE: .1
    >           I suggest that in the first case, someone with  knowledge
    >of something wrong with the shelter enter a reply saying something
    >like, "anyone who wants to know about my experiences with this
    >shelter please contact me offline."

    We have always allowed people to say something like you suggest;
    where we draw the line is if DETAILS (real, perceived or heard about)
    creep into the discussion, and they always seem to, and if all of the
    moderators seem to be working (and we are all doing a *lot* of that
    these days), it seems to turn the direction of a note into a series of
    replies that are all either "I can top that with an even more horrid
    story" or "GRRRRR! What an awful person; they should be tortured!" .
    Remember, in a court of law, the accused (or is that "maligned") the right
    of rebuttal, but no such option in a notes conference. The contributors
    here sometimes seem to be judge, jury and prosecuting attorney all
    rolled into one.

    Something I learned in my early law classes was that there is
    usually more than one version of the truth, and everyone's version is
    basically how *they* perceive it (and they may be way off the mark!).
    Take for example the note that was in this conference about a month ago
    that generated so much venom I thought that there was going to be a
    lynch-mob. I am referring to the person that reported that someone had a
    pile of cats and was abusing them by not taking care of them. Cheered
    on by the contributors to this conference, the noter self-righteously
    confronted the alleged negligent party only to discover that these cats
    were strays she felt sorry for. I'm really glad that the noter updated
    that note and said what was happening, but I found it disturbing how
    the same people went from wanting to crucify to wanting to canonize.
    Why must we be almost eager to accept the worst rather than give
    someone the benefit of the doubt, or reserve judgment until we have
    heard/seen first hand the other side of the story? Maybe it is just
    human nature, but because that trait seems to come out so emotionally
    in this conference, and because  "perceptions" (or perceptions based on
    hearsay evidence) can be so off the mark, and in light of widely distributed
    mail from Ron Glover on the subject, the moderators will continue to
    not allow notes with negative content about individuals or organizations
    in this conference. And I think that I speak for the other moderators when
    I say we are not going to open the corporation up
    for the least bit of liability over this. 

    Deb

    
    re: .4
    
    Oddly enough, when you read unread notes, you would have hit that
    'older' note before you read the newer note.  It's little note quirk.
    That's what happened when I caught up tonight.  Unseen notes are
    read in the order of the date/time they're entered.
    
    Mary, who's having just gobs of fun in Atlanta....
    
    
    

    re:-1
    
    Yeah, but if you use next unseen, and then just read all of the replies
    in that topic by hitting return, that problem is solved (unless I
    understood you wrong). then after you finish reading all the notes in
    that string, use the next unseen command, & that will take you to the
    next string, & then just repeat, from step one.
    
    Did I confuse anyone? Notes can be very confusing if you don't know
    the commands! It took me a while to figure out what *I* know, & I'm
    still asking my friend, "the resident notes expert" for help every now
    & then!!!
    
    Bonnie

    >                         Notes can be very confusing if you don't know
    >the commands! It took me a while to figure out what *I* know, & I'm
    >still asking my friend, "the resident notes expert" for help every now
    >& then!!!
    
    I've heard this comment a number of times, but frankly I can't agree
    with it. NOTES has one of the best HELP facilities of any of our
    products, and it even comes with a tutorial for new users. Remember
    when you first entered NOTES and found NOTES$SAMPLE in your notebook?
    How many people took the time to go through that and learn how to use
    the product? How many people have taken the time to go through the help
    files? Friends, that is how your "resident notes expert" learned.
    Whenever I suggest this to people I am usually told "I don't have
    time". I'm afraid that my answer to that is that if you don't have the
    time to learn how to use a product, you shouldn't be using it. Take part of
    the time that you usually spend reading employee interest conferences and
    go though NOTES$SAMPLE and help. Or do it daily during 10 minutes of your
    lunch hour. Maybe I'm just sensitive to the fact that very often when
    we move a note we get the same complaint about "noone will see it
    buried at the end of an old note", but folks, when you introduce people
    to a feline (or any other notes file) please first point them to
    NOTES$SAMPLE, HELP, and  HUMAN::ETIQUETTE before you turn them loose on
    the net. *DON'T* Open the conference and tell them "if you have any
    questions on how to use NOTES, just ask the moderator. The moderators
    have real jobs to do; just keeping up with the entries of this file is
    a time consuming job, but to answer about one person a week who asks
    how do very elementry questions takes a lot more time then any of us
    has these days.
    
    Sorry for ranting but 60+ hour weeks are starting to take their toll.
    
    Deb 

    I agree with Deb.  I have not found NOTES difficult to use.  I have 
    always been able to figure things out using HELP.  And I'd also like
    to point out that there is a Guide to VAX NOTES documentation around 
    too.  
    
    If you are really stuck with NOTES send me a mail message and I'll 
    try to give you a hand, but PLEASE use HELP first! or R.T.M. 
    (Read the Manual)
    
    Nancy DC

>    I'd like to suggest a small change to the new moderation policy,
>    which seems to prohibit warning people about bad shelters or
>    letting people who let their cats breed know about pet overpopulation
>    problems.  

	I would encourage people to let their moggies breed to ensure
	we get cats that are resistant to anything they may come into contact
	with outdoors, and to ensure that their are kittens, apart from
	purebreds, available.

	What I'm saying is, before you talk about pet overpopulation, check
	that their is a problem in the noters area.

>   a lot of people genuinely don't
>    realize the pain and suffering that they're contributing to by letting
>    their cats breed, and a small polite informational note seems
>    appropriate (not of course, if they've already indicated in their
>    message that they know about the breeding controversy.)
 
	I disagree, many people breed, some breed purebreds, and some breed 
	moggies. 
	Would you stop people breeding purebreds, moggies, or all cats?
  
 	Heather   

    re: 11 & 12
    
    My account happens to have belonged to someone else who deleted the
    sample notes conference, and then it was given to me. I pride myself on
    having taken the time to read the notes handbook/policy & learned most
    of what I know on my own. It took me a very long time to FIND the notes
    conference & policy handbook, because I had to search thru TURRIS::EASY
    NET (is that what it is?) to find it! So, it really isn't easy for
    everyone & moderators DO have real jobs to do, I agree, but isn't this
    a voulentary thing?
    
    Bon

    Re: I would encourage people to let their moggies breed to ensure
    
    I think you are posting from outside the U.S.  there is a terrible pet
    overpopulation problem everywhere in the U.S. that results in
    scores of thousands of cats being euthanized every year.
    

    I can see that moderation should come into play when 'valuing
    differences" issues apply.  What I don't like to see is notes on
    things like cats with "gas" problems being shut down because someone
    was offended by the content.  There are many notes that I don't care
    to read.  I just pass them by.  
    
    				Mary

    I agree, Mary...doesn't EVERYONE get gas & poop? It's not like we're
    talking about something that EVERY cat owner doesn't have to deal w/!
    
    I wasn't offended by the string of notes, but if I had been, I'd have
    skipped over them!
    
    Bon

    Re:  The Moderating Job
    
    As I understand it, the moderator's job is not to instruct people
    on how to use notes but to monitor the file and ensure that Digital's
    notes policy is followed.
    
    For those who need help with using notes, there are many sources
    to turn to:  the sample notes conference, the "Guide to VAX Notes"
    manual, on-line HELP and there are occasional courses offered on
    how to use notes.
    
    I suggest we start a new topic called "TECHNICAL QUESTIONS ANSWERED
    HERE" so that the FELINE notes community can help answer the questions
    of our beginners.  This would take a bit of the load off of the
    moderators and let us all share the responsibility of making this
    file more "user-friendly".  I co-moderate another notes file and this 
    has worked for us.
    
    Jan

    RE: .14
    Yes, Moderating is a voluntary thing, but there is also such a thing as
    taking advantage of a volunteer. Bonnie, I'm glad that you make a point
    of reading conference policies and learning how to use notes. But for
    every one of you, there are ten people that don't. And they will often
    point a new employee or temp at FELINE, tell him/her if they have any
    questions at all contact the moderator and walk out the door (one jerk
    went so far as to look up my phone # for the new employee before he left
    for a customer site). 
    
    Are you aware of ANCHOR::NET$LIBRARY:EASYNOTES.LIS? This is listing
    (generated weekly) that contains just about everything you could want
    to know about any conference. I have a batch stream to pull it over
    once a week.
    
    By the way, anyone that has deleted NOTES$SAMPLE from their notebook
    and would now like to go through it, please type at the NOTES> prompt: 
     ADD ENTRY NOTES$SAMPLE/FILE=VAXWRK::NOTES$SAMPLE
    
    RE: .16
   >  differences" issues apply.  What I don't like to see is notes on
   > things like cats with "gas" problems being shut down because someone
   > was offended by the content.
    
    Excuse me, but I don't recall shutting down topics on this subject
    matter nor similar subject matter so long as it was about trying to
    resolve a problem. However, if note on this topic was some form of
    "off-color" humor we might try to redirect it, and if someone
    complained about said "off-color humor", yep, it might get shut down.
    
     
    Deb

    The note I was referring to is 4542.  There is some relevant diet
    information in the note but it is basically humorous.
    
    				Mary