Conference misery::feline_v1

    
    	Tough question - When is enough - enough?
    
    	My last cat lived to 16 yrs. old and probably would have been
    around a few more years if the neightbor dog didn't attack him.  At 16
    yrs he was losing some teeth and all his teeth seemed to be worn down
    to little stubs.  I would definitely check out his gums and teeth
    first.  A sore tooth is a painful thing and shaking his head while
    trying to eat could be a sign of teeth problems.  If you can handle him
    try and checkout his teeth and gums yourself.
    
    	I wouldn't let him go on too long without food and he especially
    needs water or he will dehydrate.  The poor little guy sounds like he's
    having a tough time.  Try to feed him some baby (people type) food on
    your fingertips.  He won't have to chew it since it's all mushed up and
    maybe it will perk his appetite.
    
    	Believe me only you will know when enough is enough and when the
    time is to let go.  I would give him as much encouragement to eat and
    drink as I could and try the new antibotic too.
    
    	Best of luck to you and Squeak.
    
    	-Dee
    

    Cats don't eat when they don't feel good.  I would force feed your cat
    while giving the antibiotics a chance to do their job.  Once the
    medications start working, the cat will probably resume eating on his
    own.
    
    Try mixing strained baby food meat with a tablespoon of Nutrical and a
    couple teaspoons of warm water.  Feed the cat this with a syringe.  The
    cat needs nutrition in order to be strong enough to conquer the
    illness.  You should also continue to monitor the weight loss.
    
    Jo

    please help me out here.... what is Nutrical, where does one get it,
    and when is it administered? Thanks. Pat
    

    Are you feeding wet (canned) or dry food?
    
    Anyhow, try putting the canned food in the blender with
    equal amounts of water.  Puree to a thick soup, and pour
    it in a dish.  Maybe it hurts to chew, and this way she could
    just lap up the stuff.  You could cheat and try to tempt her
    with one of the meat babyfoods processed the same way.
    Don't forget the fresh water at all times, too.
    
    My cat Casey reacts the same way at the vets.  Not a pleasant
    patient, but he just came back after 2 days at the vets for
    pnemonia, none the worst for having cried/hissed nonstop for two days.
    I wouldn't worry about her temperment at the vets, they can
    handle it if she needs treatment.  If she starts to become
    dehydrated, she will need an I.V.  At her age, putting her
    completely under is a risk, but a slight sedative shouldn't
    be too risky...of course, discuss this fully with your vet.
    
    Also, I had a cat that was badly injured once (broken jaw)
    and he wouldn't eat.  We were given this stuff that resembled
    vanilla pudding, and a syringe, and were to feed it to him.
    It was full of vitamins and good stuff, and was supposed to make 
    him want to eat.  It worked, he started to eat.  I was too
    young to know the name of it, but it could have been this
    Nutrical.
    
    Good luck....
    
    L-  
    

    Nutrical is a nutritional supplement that comes in a tube, similar to
    Petromalt or Laxatone. But, the important difference is that Nutrical
    is a dietary supplement, and contains enough vitamins, minerals, and
    calories to support a sick or ailing cat until they are strong enough
    to eat on their own.  I urge everyone to keep a tube of this on hand at
    all times.  You never know when you will need it.
    
    When Nutrical is fed as the sole diet, it can sometimes cause what I
    call "nutrical diarrhea".  That is why I advise folks to mix it with
    baby food.  Nutrical diarrhea is nothing to get too upset about, but
    folks should know that because of it's concentrated form, and the
    amount of vitamins and minerals in it, the diarrhea will not resemble
    normal diarrhea.  It can be frightening if you have never seen it.  The
    bowel movement will be a green color.  If this happens, then start
    mixing some baby food meat and baby *rice* cereal into the Nutrical.
    
    You can buy Nutrical at cat shows, vet offices (sometimes), pet stores,
    feed stores and places like that.  You can also get it from most pet
    catalog companies.  It usually runs about $3.00 for a tube.
    
    I think that a 10 pound cat can maintain it's body weight on just 2
    tablespoons of Nutrical.  But, check the label to be sure.  That was
    from memory.
    
    Jo

    
    
    	How much tartar is there on her teeth?? You may find that
    	having them scaled will help a lot. Rosie lost a couple of
    	pounds (she's only 5 lbs!) and stopped eating after getting
    	her shots one time, it turned out that the shots lowered her
    	resistance to the bacteria in the tartar, making her feel 
    	pretty sick. Having her teeth scaled brought her right back 
    	to her old self again. Has your vet suggesting doing that??
    
    	Sherry
    

I second the force-feeding of babyfood/nutracal mix until the cat gets back
that fighting attitude.  I almost lost our 16 year old siamese over the
Christmas holidays, but brought her back by force feeding her babyfood
lamb and turkey mixed with nutracal....a few days of 4 feedings a day and
she bagan to "help" me feed her the food - then I knew she was ready to
eat her cat food again.

Make the force feeding easier by wrapping the cat up in a big towel before
feeding - that makes a giant "cigar" shape with the cat's head poking
out.  It is pretty easy to handle the cat and the force feeder at the
same time.

If you have a sickly cat, dry kibble may not be interesting until the
cat feels better....you might be tempted to try canned
food - but in my experience if the cat isn't used to canned food, diarrhea
is the result.  If you normally feed your cat kibble and no canned food,
then do mix the baby rice cereal into the babyfood when force feeding...
it will prevent the diarrhea problem.

Oh, and you can also force feed some small doses of plain water into the
cat to offset dehydration with a small eyedropper.  The vet will be able
to provide the dropper and force feeding unit.  When forcing food down
Tabs I found it was easier to use the largest force-feeder they had and
then to cut off the end of the tube in order to allow the food to pass
through easily - when I cut the tube, the opening got bigger.  Meat-based
baby food is not generally available without some texture to it as it
is considered a "second" or "third" food.  I simply squirted a helping
into the back of her mouth and allowed her to swallow and then slipped
the tube into her mouth and inserted another helping.  

When force feeding, always hold the cat in the upright position - it can
be difficult when they are struggling with you - in order to avoid forcing
food down the wrong way.

You will know when it is time to stop trying.  Noone else can make that
decision for you....however, in my experience, cats can give up before it
is really time for them to - they don't have much fight in them - and I
always at least try to get back the fighting spirit in a sick cat before 
I give up completely.

Take care of yourselves.

    Thanks for your replies and suggestions.  We had been mushing her food
    up with lots of water but that seemed to have too much texture for her
    to handle; will try baby food meats with added water tonight.  Also
    will ask the vet about Nutrical.
    
    Talked with the vet about the condition of her teeth; he agrees that
    the could use cleaning, but doesn't seem to feel this is the primary
    problem. So we're going to try the new antibiotic and force-feeding
    before moving on to have dental work done.
    
    Thanks again, I'll post progress notes!
    
    Lynn

    I remember hearing about forcefeeding humans that food could
    go into the lungs instead and cause considerable problems.
    I'd check with the vet to be sure I was doing this properly.
    

    I'm sorry to hear about Squeak. Boy, it sure sounds familiar! I have 
    been going through something similar with Misty, my 16-year-old 
    Siamese. She stopped eating the Saturday before Christmas (that made 
    for a real happy holiday :-( ) and for about a week ate hardly enough
    to keep a bird alive. (Re: .7 -- is this just a weird coincidence?!)

    At first, the vet couldn't determine what was wrong, even after a full 
    blood workup and other tests. He suspected her teeth were giving her 
    problems and prescribed liquid Amoxicillin. By Thursday she still 
    wasn't eating; she was at the vet's for hydration for the second time. 
    Her urine sample showed she had some kidney failure. The vet prescribed 
    K/D food and said to keep her on the Amoxicillin. 

    Misty still wouldn't eat and was rapidly becoming very thin. Her worst 
    day was Saturday after Christmas. She would not eat a thing. I really 
    thought it was the end and was seriously thinking of making "the call", 
    to have the house call vet come and put her to sleep. Fortunately, I 
    waited for my regular vet to call me back before I did anything. While
    waiting, not wanting to give up without a fight, I force fed her Nutrical. 

    It turned out that the Amoxicillin was making her sick to her stomach 
    and she would vomit after being given a dose. The vet said it affects 
    some people that way, too. He had me discontinue the Amoxi, and by 
    Saturday night Misty's appetite perked up. She ate a little better on 
    Sunday, and continued to improve from there. I supplemented her food 
    with Nutrical for a few days until she was eating almost normally. She 
    is doing well now and has regained the weight she lost.

    I think it's a very positive sign that Squeak has no liver or kidney
    disease. Squeak's pawing at her mouth seems to indicate her teeth are 
    bothering her. Trying an alternative antibiotic, in case that is 
    causing Squeak not to eat, and pursuing the dental angle sounds like 
    a good move, as does force feeding her Nutrical. Getting some nourishment 
    into her may make her feel better so that she may start eating on her own.

    I know how upsetting it is to have a cat that is sick and not eating, 
    how helpless you can feel. Sometimes it's hard to know how far to go, 
    but I wouldn't give up on Squeak just yet. 

    Good luck and let us know how it goes.

    Linda, Misty, Cubby, Tweetie, Toby, and Peanut

    
    Amoxicillin makes Holly throw up also.
    

    Our grocery store offers a Junior type baby food meat (ground but not
    very finely) and a First foods baby food meat (strained).  The First
    foods type is the type to buy.  It will go through a syringe better and
    won't clog it up.
    
    When I force feed an adult cat, I do not use the feeding tubes.  My
    experience is that if you try to insert the tube into the throat, the
    adult cat will bite off the tube and you have to then fish the piece
    out of their throat.  True tube feeding is much easier to do on young
    kittens.  When I force feed an adult cat with a syringe, I attach
    nothing to the syringe, and insert the tip of the syringe in the side
    of the mouth, right between the pre-molars.  
    
    *you must do this very, very slowly and carefully.  There is a chance
    that a cat can aspirate the food into it's lungs.*
    
    In my experiences so far, when I was force feeding a sick cat, the risk
    of aspiration was less than the risk of the cat not eating.  In other
    words, it was a matter of life and death for the cat.  In those cases,
    I chose the risk of aspiration, and proceeded very carefully only
    giving about .5cc's each time.  Just enough for the cat to swallow the
    amount carefully.
    
    I agree with Dian that in most cases, the cat gives up before it is
    time to give up.  When they don't feel good, they will not eat.
    
    Also, the fact that the cat has some type of growth or abnormal cells
    in it's mouth could be reason enough for it to not want to eat.  The
    pawing at the mouth could be a result of that problem.
    
    Jo

    More on Squeak:
    
    So far so good. I've gotten two small "meals" of babyfood chicken into
    Squeak, maybe a tablespoon of the actual food and a lot of water added,
    using an eye dropper inserted into the side of her mouth.  She's
    also taking the Nutrical, which I'm just wiping onto her mouth and
    letting her lick off. We did start the second antibiotic. The fun part,
    of course, is getting her wrapped up in a towel and immobilized. I
    guess the fact that she fights it, even a little, is a good sign.
    
    Just call me mom-cat.
    
    Regards, Lynn

    Our prayers are with Squeak.   If he starts to feel a a little bit
    better you might want to try this.  It worked for my Cat Taffy when
    he was so sick and wouldn't eat.
    
    Lay on the floor, eye to eye, talk softly telling him what a wonderful
    boy he is.  Try putting a small bit of babyfood on his chin so
    he licks it off and tastes how good it is, then take a small plastic
    spoon with babyfood and put it under his nose.  My cat would ONLY
    eat his babyfood from this spoon.  But of course...I would have done
    anything to get him to eat.
    
      Good luck and our thoughts are with you and Squeak.
    
    Sandy    

    Sounds like you're making progress.  Keep up the good work.
      Nancy DC

    That is great news about Squeek!  Glad to hear that you were able to
    find the Nutrical.  It will help keep Squeek's energy level up for the
    recovery.
    
    Jo

I KNOW it's worth it....this morning, Tabs was running all over the house
in pursuit of the 5 month old kitten - wrestling match in the family room
was in full swing as I left for work...Hang in there.

				D

	Good morning,

	I just want to thank everyone for their kind words, thoughts, and
	support during this difficult time.

	We got the final pathology reports back from the lab. The first
	reports had said they couldn't *definitively* say the suspicious
	areas in Squeak's mouth were malignant. The second reports say
	that the cells are so atypical that they should be considered
	malignant. 

	I've been forcefeeding her but she's just not responding to that
	or the new medication, and is looking worse almost by the hour.
	
	My family and I have talked long and hard about this, and it seems
	clear that Squeak has reached "enough."

	Once again, thanks to all who lent their support.

	Regards,
	Lynn

    It must have been a heartbreaking decision for you.  Somehow I'm sorry
    doesn't seem enough in cases like this.  Take some comfort in the fact
    that he was loved and led a comfortable life.
    
    Kim (Bonnie, Diane, Lucifer, & Snowball)

    
    
    	Lynn-
    
    	Sorry that you had to make that final tough decision, but if you
    	love "them" you sometimes have to let them go.  I know there's
    	no comfort in saying we understand because most of us have been
    	there, but we do know how you must feel and my thoughts go out
    	to you.  It sounds like Squeak was a pretty lucky cat to have
    	you for an owner.
    
    	Take care-
    
    
    	-dee
    

    We're very sorry for you both.
    
    Karen, Sweetie, Holly, Little Bit
    

    Add my condolences to those that have already expressed them.  I just
    went through the same difficult decision twice in the last couple of
    months.  It is very hard, but be comforted by the knowledge that Squeek
    will be happy and free from pain.
    
    Jo

    Thanks, everyone. We had Squeak put down Friday evening. She was always
    terrified of being around strangers or in new settings, so a trip to
    the vet was always a traumatic experience for her. We're comforted
    somewhat by knowing that she had familiar faces around her, and
    familiar hands petting her, at the end.
    
    Regards,
    Lynn

    We are very sorry to hear about Squeek.. 
    Kate, Happy, Preschie

    Sorry to hear about Squeek ... sometimes its so hard to let go even
    when we know it's the best thing to do.
    
    Giudi

    Squeak's name has been added to the Silver Lining Memorial List for
    this quarter.  I hope it helps to know that the donation made in
    her name will benefit other animals.
    
    With deep sympathies
      Nancy DC & the Putiput kitties

    I'm sorry to hear about Squeak, also. You did your best, and now she 
    is at peace.

    With sympathy,

    Linda

    Lynne,
    
         My deepest sympathies to you.  If there's anything I can do for
    you, please don't hesitate to ask.
    
    					- Andrea