Conference misery::feline_v1

      If you only have the two cats and they both are fat,  then that's
    half the battle.  At least they both have the same needs, and don't
    have to compete with many other cats who are not fat.
    There are many good brands of food you can give them.  There is a new
    one in the stores, MATURE,  there is coupons in all kinds of magazines
    for that brand.
    There is CD lite, IAMS lite, and probably others you can get at your
    vet.  Check with him for specifics on dieting.
    Cats don't need much exercise, even 10-15 minutes at a time, once or
    twice a day, will go a long way.  Or you can leave plenty of toys
    around for them.  They'll play on their own, too.
    But, they are like gremlins,  "Don't feed them at night!".  You will
    have to break that habit.  Even if it means shutting your door until
    they adjust to their new situation.  Otherwise, they'll just keep
    waking you up at night.
    Don't leave a lot of kibbles out for them all day or night.  Set
    specific meal times and stick to them.  You might have to do this 
    slowly over a couple weeks rather than go cold turkey, or their little
    tummies would really be growling.
    
                                  good luck,  Denise
                                  (who has 1 fat cat)

    C/D lite? When did it become available? (Or are you thinking of Science
    Diet Lite, also made by Hills but not a prescription diet)
    
    As for the base noters question, I trimmed down Argus from 22 lbs to a
    svelte 13 by changing him from C/D to R/D (Reducing/Diet, made by Hills
    under the prescription diet label, and available only through your vet).
    Dropping his jellybelly was a 9 month process, and since Argus is an FUS
    cat that had a lot of weight to take off, I had to mix the R/D in a quart
    jar, 1 handfull of C/D and fill the remainder with R/D. The big guy also
    need to get an acidifier every other day.
    
    To get an obese cat to loose weight is a long process as they will only
    loose about 1 lb/month. You should consult your vet.
    
    Hope this helps,
    Deb

    The C/D is very high in calories.  I can maintain Kalliste's weight at
    13 pounds on 1/4 cup of the C/D dry a day!!  A scant handful would
    probably make his weight skyrocket to 20+ pounds!  
    
    If you want to keep them on C/D and still want them to lose weight,
    then you should cut back the amount of C/D you are feeding them. 
    Truly, 1/4 cup doesn't sound like much, but this food is very dense.
    All the nutrition and calories they need are in that 1/4 cup.  
    
    If you want to be able to give them more food and still have them lose
    weight, then you should switch them to a lite food like Science Diet
    Light Maintenance, or Iams Light.  
    
    If your cats are on C/D, it is probably at your vets advice and
    consent.  You should talk the weight problem over with him before
    making any changes.  If your cats are on C/D to control an FUS problem,
    then you may need to get them on urinary acidifiers before making any
    diet changes.
    
    **as an aside.  Monroe, formally my cat who now lives with my mom,
    recently blocked.  When he went to live with mom I let her switch him
    from C/D to Iams Light since he was overweight and it was easier for
    her to buy the Iams Light.  Well, the vet tells us that Iams is much
    higher in Magnesium than the Science Diet products.  My mom's vet no
    longer recommends it for cats with FUS tendencies.  And here all this
    time I thought that Iams was one of the "safe" foods.  Now I am
    confused.  Anyone else here of this?
    
    Jo

    CD dry lite is available.  It took my guys a few days to decide it
    was okay.  They hate RD.  You also might try a kitty tease to get them
    to exercise with no energy expenditure on your part.
    
    Night: make it clear to them that you see them, but then ignore them.
    Hang tough, so they learn this behavior isn't rewarded, and they will
    give up in a few days.
    

    On occasion I have fed Iams Less Active to Wing as she was a little
    pudget. I worked well for her and she didn't seem to be any worse off. 
    I also free feed.  Now I feed the Iams Kitten becuase of visiting
    Goldie who is 7 1/2 months old and becuase Ruby is hopefully preggers.
    I do have the option of using Science Diet but have just preferred Iams
    myself.  Ruby doesn't seem to like the Science Diet as well.  Can
    anyone out there make further comments?  Perhaps we should send for
    info from both companies and do our own comparison with the side advice
    of a vet?
    Karen, Ruby,Stinky,Wing,Goldie

    Try WD.  I was just at the vet over the weekend and they've
    switched Tubbs off of CD and onto WD (it has been out about
    1 year or less now).  It has much less fat than CD, and still
    keeps in mind the low ash and mag content.  Even the food is
    a light brown color.  They suggest when changing a cats diet
    to do is gradually, so Tubbs is getting half of each for a week
    or so and then 3/4 WD and 1/4 CD and then all WD.  If he loses
    weight and is doing well on the new food I can continue to keep
    him on WD, if he isn't too thrilled with WD there is no problem
    mixing the two.
    
    Call your vet.
    
    

    HELP!
    I'm a new kitty and I'm not sure of these abbreviations.  What is CD,
    WD, etc.  I was eating Max kitten dry but I thought it was very yucky
    so I stopped eating it for a week.  I also hate Iams kitten food and
    ProPlan.  I'll eat Mother Hubbard if I really have to.  Now my mom is
    giving me kitten chow that she buys to feed the strays because it's
    cheap and fattening.  I love it but mommy feels like it is more like 
    letting me eat candy that roast beef and veggies.  Can you help me
    find a food I might like.  I'm a spayed girl at 3-4 lbs and I'm 7
    months old.  I'm just a peanut-at least that is what mommy says!
    Flirtaysha
    8)

    C/D is Science Diet's prescription food for cats with Cystitis and
    other bladder problems.  I have always assumed that C/D stood for
    Cystitis Diet.
    
    W/D is a new one for me.  Not sure of what it is but sounds like it
    might be a cystitis diet that is lower in calories (C/D is high in
    calories and most cats balloon when they go on it.  For that reason, I
    love it for my breeding males since they have trouble keeping weight on
    in the breeding season.  I let them free feed on it during breeding
    season)
    
    R/D is a Reducing Diet formula designed to help fat cats trim down.  It
    is also a prescription food.  
    
    Then Science Diet has a light food that is sold commercially (thru pet
    stores and feed stores) called Light Maintenance.  Not quite as low
    calorie as R/D but you don't have to get it from the vet.
    
    Science Diet also has a prescription food called P/D which I translate
    as Pregnancy Diet.  It is for pregnant and lactating queens.  It is
    higher in calcium and other nutrients that are necessary during
    pregnancy.
    
    Jo

    I always thought that C/D was by Hills, not Science Diet.
    

	Science Diet is by Hills, too.

	Our gang all love the Light Maintenance formula.  In fact, I've
	even been able to cut down by half the amount of canned food they
	eat, and my vet told me that it provides really high quality
	protein (this was important when C.C. was sick and wouldn't eat
	the K/D canned).

	Sandy

This reply is from MY fat cat -- Shanti:

"Fellow hefty cats,
I am a closet cat food junkie. It all happened because I'm so cute!
If I roll over on my back, it's a real effort. But with all the oohs
and 'how cute'! I get, I can't help myself. So I leave all physical
exercise to a minimum. Well, mom caught on to this, and she stuck me
on Iams for Less Active Cats. She also cut back on my wet food --
the 9-lives MORSELS (not that ground junk!) to a tablespoon in the
evening. And now that they have DIET 9-lives Morsels, it's even less
fat in my diet! 

Well, mom's solution to my 'slight' overweight problem (just because
when I jump I grunt!) was to give me a 1/4 (or less) cup of the Iams,
and tablespoon of 9-lives. When she gets home from work, she gets these
neat toys, like paper wads, and throws them around the house! It was
tough work, but in 3 months, I lost those 3 ugly pounds I was trying to
lose! I probably could stand to lose another 2, but I'm looking much
more svelt now! (I even got a tree house to share with the other 2 cat
residents!)

I now belong to CCFJA (Closet Cat Food Junkies Anonymous). I figure,
if I don't eat what she gives me, I might not get anything! So, I'll
eat it -- I get hungry real fast! But the CCFJA has helped tremendously!"

Hugs,
Shanti (the CUTEST roll-y poll-y cat in the state of Maryland!)

    .......a scant handful twice a day?  1/4 cup?  I fed
    my four HS Maintence dry free-choice!!!!  Plus canned
    plus Alpo dry, too.  Only Casey had a weight problem,
    and he did gain weight....but, we exercise the crew
    and the weight came right off!
    
    I personally could not bear the thought that they were
    so hungry as to wake me up for food.  
    
    Are you sure they don't have a thyroid problem???
    
    L-

    Re: I personally could not bear the thought that they were
        so hungry as to wake me up for food.
    
    
     I know a 16 pound cat who agrees with you.   However.
    
    Just what does the W in WD stand for?  It's a new one on
    me, too.
    

    Hi guys it's me again.  I was just wondering if anyone could help me
    find a good kitten food that I may like.  You answered my abbreviation
    questions but never helped me with my food.  I'm eating garbage food
    right now-that's what mommy says (9-lives kitten food).  I don't like:
    	Proplan
    	Iams
    	Max kitten
    	Science diet
    
    Am I a fussy eater or what?
    
    Flirtaysha
    8)

    Lynn,
    
    Keep in mind that c/d is very high in calories and in nutrition.  A 
    1/4 cup will provide enough nutrition and calories to maintain a cat at
    it's current weight.  More than that will lead to obesity.  C/D is not
    formulated like other cat foods.  Comparing a 1/4 cup of C/D to a 
    1/4 cup of 9 lives dry is like comparing 1/4 cup of broccoli with 1/4
    of potatoe chips.  Cats do not starve on this amount of food.
    
    Also, a scant handful could amount to almost a cup of C/D.  That is
    quite a bit considering it's nutritional value.
    
    I have a cat that would wake me up for food even if he had just
    consumed the entire 20 lb bag of C/D.  With some cats, just like some
    people, it isn't a matter of hunger.
    
    As for helping Flirtaysha to find a nutritious food that she will like,
    I think she is being too picky.  My cats and kittens really like the
    Max Cat and Max Kitten food, as well as Iams and Science Diet.  Have
    you tried Tami Ami yet?  Sounds like Flirtaysha almost has mom trained.
    :^)
    
    Jo

    Karen,
    
    W/D is weight diet. I spoke to someone from Hills at the Salem show.
    She told me that the purpose of W/D was to trim (and keep) down the
    weight of FUS cats that really should be getting the benifits of C/D
    (real-low mag ash, urine acidity) but had to be put on R/D (with a mix-in
    of C/D) as a drastic way to lose weight. Argus falls into this category. 
    
    My vet has tried to order it but it never seems to come in. (The local
    distribution system seems to have problems, but I won't get into them
    here).
    
    Deb

	I never knew you could get overweight cats, I always have dry,
	and moist food out, and feed them a tin of wet (1lb in weight)
	mornings and evenings. My vet has said that cats don't overeat like 
	dogs do, and they'll regulate their food intake themselves.

	Well, my two do, I'll weigh and measure them when I get home, but I'm 
	sure that neither of them is over 9 lbs (and Yoda can't be more then
	6lbs), and male ginger moggies tend to be bigger than average.

	I'll get them to strech out - turning on the fire usually does the
	trick, and measure from the tip of the front paws to the the tip of the
	back paws. I'll also measure them standing up, from the paw to the 
	shoulder - the way they measure horses height.

	Is there a standard size/weight chart for moggies?

	Heather

    I think a key here is also how much exercise a cat gets.   I always
    leave moist food out at all times and some of my furfaces eat alot
    but are pretty slim because of the amount of exercise they get.
    
    Sandy

    Well my dad and brother have been telling me that Nippa is getting
    fat, BUT I just found out they have been slipping her chicken and
    turkey every nite for some time.  Here I 've been listening to their
    remarks and trying to cut down on her intake....and they've been 
    feeding her.....aarrrggghhh!
    
    Nippa was feral and for the past 4 years has spent on the average
    10-20 hours a day outside (on her own accord).  We usally play with the
    bunny in the evening (or cin's sparklie stick) for that *quality time*.
    
    I'm not sure if it's coiencidence or related, but she just turned 4 (is
    that still considered young?) and the folks next door moved in w/ a cat
    and dog, so she hates to go outside when she knows she can't get back
    in right away.  I think she basicially goes out to do her thing and
    check out the yard.  she might be out for 2-6 hours a day now.  The
    rest of the time she sleeps.
    
    So, any thoughts on metabolism and aging?
    
    Michele & Nippa
    	

    I think past experience also has alot to do with eating.  Bob is
    getting very pudgy.  He LOVES eat and if there's food available he'll
    eat it.  I guess he still hasn't gotten used to the idea that there'll
    always be food for him.  (Bob was captured almost exactly a year ago.
    He was part of a feral colony).
    
    Most of our cats are pretty good in the weight department.  Dundee
    could use another pound and Isis and Bob definitely need to lose a
    bit, but with 12 cats its VERY hard to put any of them on a special
    diet.
      
    
    BTW - my vet put Dundee on P/D when he was having a bout of chronic
    diarreah as a kitten.  I thought the P was for Pediatrics :-)

    re 15:
    Jo 
    I know Flirtaysha has mommy trained.  How high would you like mommy to 
    jump dear?!  Do you think it's ok to leave her dry food Max kitten out
    to free feed and tell her that she can eat that or go hungry?  My
    mother did that to me at dinner time and I'm still around.  Maybe if
    she gets hungry enough she'll eat it.  Is that mean?  I don't want her
    to hate me.
    Lisa

spray bottle of water near the bed should do it...spray the offender and he/she
will think twice before nailing you in the middle of the night again.

feeding - talk to your vet about using one of the "lite" premium foods - more
kibble for the same calories - maybe even using SCIENCE DIET lite until the
weight is under control.

exercise - I have several "kitty tease" types of toys and I make the time
to play with the gang of 5 for at least an hour each night - active, chase-
the-string, jump-up-and-grab-the-birdie type of play.  That means that even
my laziest cat gets some exercise on a daily basis.  This keeps the fattest
in shape and although not thin, not terribly obese either, and keeps my thin 
kids's appetites up enough to keep weight ON them.  Yes, it takes time, but it
is so good for them - and I get a few giggles out of it and that keeps ME
smiling.  Kitty aerobics are a NECESSITY, in my opinion.

about feeding picky eaters:

if you see that cat eat it AT ALL, then you know it will be eaten.  Leave it
out all the time and don't give in to the picky eater syndrome.  I've been
there and I know it can be grim, but they do love you and won't stop loving
you.  As long as they recognize it as food, it will be eaten when the cat
gets hungry enough.

One point to ponder:  some cats are very easily triggered to eat by
 "competition" (perceived or real) at the food dish...and some eat very
poorly if that competition isn't there.  I know we had a hard time getting The
Flash to really like to eat - we were feeding her separate from the other
cats so we could feed her kitten food - finally, I tried setting her up
next to Nicholas and she began to eat well...and Nick eats better now too...
Seems Mandy needs to have the feeling of being WITH CATS to eat well and
Nick seems to benefit from the "competition" too.  All picky-eater attitudes
went away in the process.

If you have a picky eater, get another cat -- that should take care of it! 8^}

    A while ago I was feeding Butterscotch enough to satisfy her increased
    appetite, with the inevitable result that she became too fat.  So, last
    weekend, when I went to the Old Mother Hubbard factory to replenish the
    supply of OMH, I also picked up some cans of Neura Light Reducing Diet
    (also manufactured by OMH).  I'm giving her a serving of the diet food 
    in the morning and a serving of the OMH in the evening.  She also gets
    a small amount of either Natural Life or Fromm's dry food.  It is too
    early to tell whether or not she is slimming down, but I did want to at
    least mention the Neura diet food as a possible alternative for those
    other cats out there that are on diets.

    What I feed Butterscotch is based on a list of recommended foods I got
    from a holistic veterinarian.  He and a farmer out in the Midwest have
    tested the premium foods for toxins and recommend the following:

       Natural Life
       Lick Your Chops
       Old Mother Hubbard
       Neura
       Fromm's
       Science Diet
    
    Cornucopia is also on the list, but I have heard of some problems with
    this brand, so I would guess it might be retested and subsequently re-
    moved.  Also, Fromm's changed their formula recently (switching from 
    chicken meal to chicken by-products, I believe), which could explain 
    why the vet heard it might be having some problems as well and might
    need to be retested.

    It really isn't easy to figure out what is nutritionally the best for
    our furry friends!  Because Butterscotch is of the geriatric set, she
    also gets a powdered vitamin and mineral supplement.  I haven't managed
    to convince her that she should eat raw veggies as recommended by the
    vet (for live enzymes).  And the best I can do for raw organ meats is
    to give her some freeze-dried liver treats.  She also gets a few licks
    of an Omega 3 oil after I add it to my morning juice.  As you can see,
    this vet recommends a varied, as well as rotational, diet.

    Happy feeding!

    Cindy

    I think that with Flirtaysha I would leave the food out and be "tough"
    on her.  She will not starve herself to death.  She will try to make
    you feel guilty (she already knows how to push your buttons).  You 
    could put out three little bowls of Iams Kitten, Max Kitten and Science
    Diet kitten and let her decide which is the lesser of the three evils.
    Then maybe she would give in to a compromise.  :^)  I would be tough
    when it comes to dry food though.  A good quality dry food is a must.
    Especially if it is going to be the bulk of the diet.
    
    Hang in there, don't let her wear you down.  :^)
    
    Jo

    According to some research I read (?In Cat Fancy?) it seems that
    finicky cats are "made" not born.  
    
    I agree with Jo.  Be tough.
    

    Hmmm...  Barney and Gonezo are roughly 17 and 20lbs...  Barney used to
    weigh more but when I got pregnant last year, he seemed to drop the
    weight.  Now, I'm not suggesting you try this, but it did work.  Barney
    has kept his weight "down" and he still eats like a pig.  I just bought
    them today for the first time 9-Lives "lean cuisine" (or whatever it's
    called) and I'm going to try that.  For dry food, I give them Fromm
    kitty food and they really like it and the vet gave her blessing (it
    has the same or better mineral levels than Iams and CD).  If they like
    the new 9-Lives and lose some weight, I'll let you know.
    
    Mary
    

    I'm not looking for a debate here, nor am I trying to discredit
    anyone's opinion. And maybe I'm an just too soft when it comes to my cats
    but I'd like to present another side to the discussion about "Finiky
    cat's being made not born". My mother had that same theory about people
    being picky eaters. I was such a person. Now that I am a bit older, and
    thanks to my father's very severe case of Crohn's Disease, my family
    and I have learned a great deal about food intolarances and food allergies.
    
    I've found that most of the foods that I "don't like" actually make me
    sick because I lack the enzymes to digest them properly. Like lot's of
    folks of Medeteranian background, I suffer from favaism, so if anyone
    wants me to suffer a slow painful death by poisening, force feed me a
    common middle/near eastern staple, a few fava beans (and if you want to
    speed it up, sprinkle on some form of ground red pepper like chili 
    peper or paprika, which is commonly used to season the beans, and
    I'll be in enough pain to take my own life). 
    
    Now, I've noticed that there are several foods that cause some of my
    cats to have similar symptoms to those that go along with food
    intolarences in humans (diararra, vomiting, congestion). And I've also
    noticed that if fed the same food that seems to cause the problem at
    the next meal, the cats will either shy away from it, or decide to skip
    a meal. This is especially true of the twins who seem to have very
    sensitive little tummies, a common trait among Siameese. I think that the
    cat's body is telling them to stay away from a food that doesn't sit well
    with them, and I try to observe and respect this. Maybe I'm projecting 
    my own problems onto my cats, but I won't eat something that I don't like,
    so, as a firm believer in the golden rule, I would feel like a hypocrite
    forcing my cats to eat somthing that they didn't like.
    
    And yes, I have put the cats on "elimination diets" of sorts to
    determine what sits will with all of them. C/D, Science Diet Lite,
    KalKan 's chunky bits o' beef and kitty stew are what passed the taste,
    quality and after effects test.
    
    Deb

    THANKS to everyone for the advice.  I will talk to my vet about
    WD and RD, as well as the quantity they should be getting.  Kitty
    aerobics will begin as soon as I get the sheetrock out of the hall.
    
    Ellen