Conference misery::feline_v1

Sandy,

it does sound like a good idea to get Smudge out.  However, it may be awhile
before you can place her so, meanwhile, you might try this:

	1)  An extended separation between Smudge and her victim is in order.
	    Isolation away from the other cats will allow them to bring their
	    scent to the forefront in the house, and reduce Smudge's sense
	    of possession as her scent fades.  I suggest Smudge be completely
	    isolated and you visit her but don't let her into the house for 
	    a few weeks or more - provided, of course, that the basement or 
	    other room can be made comfortable AND isolated.

	2)  allow controlled access, tightly monitored by you or your
	    husband, after the extended isolation period.  The minute her
	    aggressive nature shows, pick her up and put her back in the
	    isolation room for an extended period of time.

	3)  If the kitten is not spayed, Smudge may be reacting to the 
	    hormones the kitten begins to put out as she sexually matures.
	    If this is the case, then, if you wish to spay the kitten when
	    the time is right, Smudge may stop harassing her once she is
	    spayed.  I've seen the behavior in female cats before -- it seems
	    to be an instinct to drive off the young females as they
	    become sexually mature.  It is probably a residual behavior
	    SOME cats inherit from their wild ancestors...and, in the wild,
	    it is a good practice - it spreads the gene pool around and
	    prevents too much inbreeding.  In a home, however, the young
	    female has nowhere to go and the problem you are seeing arises.

	    If you are planning to breed the kitten, then you must certainly
	    be careful of Smudge....I suspect it will take long, continuous
	    intervention to make her leave the un-spayed cat alone.

    
    Hi Dian - and thanks for your note.  The good news is that Jenny's eye
    looks really good tonight.  I think only her lower eyelid got
    scratched, so that's a big relief!  Smudge is secure in the cellar,
    where it's warm and safe.  She's got a big soft cushion to sleep on, a
    litterbox, and fresh food and water, but she runs away when I go down
    there.  I'm sure she knows we're very upset with her.  I would prefer
    to put her in a large cage so that she can be with the rest of the
    family, so if anyone in the Manchester (NH) area has one that I can
    borrow for a little while, I'd appreciate it.
    
    Both cats are spayed, though - Jenny is 2 years old, and while Smudge
    was never too happy about our new additions, she pretty much had gotten
    over the hissy fits within a couple of months after they'd arrived.
    But, she *had* gotten closer to my son Robby, who left home for the
    Navy early in July.  To make matters worse, the Siamese all sleep
    together, eat together, play together, and kinda leave Smudge out of
    it.  For the most part it seems as if that's her choice, but who can
    really tell what goes on in those little heads?  She may have felt left
    out and took out her anger at the one who could least defend herself,
    since Smudge is a bit of a wimp herself.
    
    Anyway, I'd much rather find her a nice home than have to put her in a
    shelter, even if it is no-kill.   She's a very pretty baby, and has a
    good heart when she's not stressed (in fact, when she sits up straight,
    the black patch on her back takes on the shape of a heart - it's really
    neat).
    
    Sandy
    

    Sandy,
    
    have you asked your vet about Ovaban? Two weeks on the stuff cured
    Alexandra's agressivness (rage) that she felt toward Argus.
    
    Deb

	Thanks, Deb - Smudge is going to the vet's next week, and I'll ask
	him about the Ovaban and see what he thinks.  It would be wonderful
	if it worked on Smudge, but I wonder how long it would take us to
	be able to trust her again.  How bad was Alexandra's aggressiveness?

    Alex's rage was a nightmare. Basicly, I found her and brought her home
    at the same time that Argus (who had raised the twins) was very ill and
    in the hospital for a month (he was blocked and had a PU). Eirene
    resented her fro the start; she and Argus are very close and I think
    that she thot I got rid of Argus and replaced him with Alex. Well, Alex
    would attempt to defend herself from Eirene (not an easy task since
    Alex is declawed), and Eirene would run to Argus who would proceed to beat
    the daylights out of her. Eventually, Alex began retaliating by waiting
    until Argus was asleep and would wack him. He'd wake up and fight back,
    and she'd constantly have absesses.
    
    I couldn't take it anymore so I asked the vet about Ovaban. It was approved 
    for use on dogs, not cats, but all of the cat magazines were talking 
    about it. We tried it but the vet said that he felt both cats should be
    treated, since both were acting as agressors. I've heard folks say that
    it won't help females (since they already have female hormores running
    around inside of them), but it mellowed both Argus and Alex down to the
    point that they are friends and even groom each other. The bottom line
    is that it can't hurt to try it.
    
    Deb

I like the idea of a large cage, like a Tokyo cage, for control of the
problem while you re-socialize the cat.  However, I do agree that the
Ovaban sounds like a possible solution.  You know that placing her may
take a long time and you can continue to work the problem while you
wait....after all, the best thing you have going for you is her limit
of memory.  If you isolate her from the situation long enough, she will
forget what she was doing.  I know it's hard, but I've been through
the socialization process (in fact, with Nick it is a continuous problem
as he loses ground with ANY new event in his world), and it is worth it
to give an cat that couldn't make it otherwise a chance.  I treasure the
little improvements I see.  You will too.

    Something similar to Ovaban worked for my Pussycat, who
    was unmanageable by anyone but me.  It was some hormone
    that began with a P, if I remember correctly.
    

	Thanks for all the suggestions so far.  I've made an appointment at
	the vet's for Smudge, and will speak to him about Ovaban and/or
	kitty valium at that time.  In the meantime, she's secure in the
	cellar, and Jenny is getting her confidence back at bit.  I feel
	so bad for Smudge, though - she's obviously lonely.  I spent some
	time with her Friday night and Saturday while I did the laundry,
	and she was more than usually friendly and outgoing - lots of purrs,
	leg rubs, and squeaks (her version of a meow).  On Sunday, we let
	her come upstairs to eat with the others, while we watched very
	carefully for any signs of aggression.  It didn't take long for
	her and Jenny to get back into a staring contest, so as soon as
	she was done eating, I put her back downstairs.  I've also been
	letting Tas and/or C.C. go downstairs with her so that she won't
	become too isolated. 

	Could anyone tell me please where in So. NH I could find a Tokyo
	cage, and approximately how much it would cost?

	Sandy, Smudge, Tas, Jenny, C.C. and Beau

    Sandy,
    
    Martha Hadleigh of Hadleigh has cages - her 800 number is in here
    somewhere, or send me mail, and I"ll send it to you.  
    
    A less expensive way out might be to buy a wooden screen door and
    hang it on your bathroom, if you have either an extra bathroom,
    a small guest type that doesn't receive heavy traffic!  Wooden
    screen doors are about $30ish, versus a Tokyo cage that probably
    will run you $100 to $125. Or, an extra small bedroom.  The cat
    would be able to see through the screen also.  
    
    Good luck,
    
    Elaine

    I don't recollect from the previous notes -- have you tried the jail
    method?  Smudge is allowed free access, but goes to jail (i.e.,
    the cellar the instant she goes after Jenny) and stays there for
    at least ten minutes.  It's amazing how often this works with just
    a few repetitions.  You have to jail Smudge promptly and scold her 
    enough so that she gets the idea that going after Jenny -> to jail
    for Smudge.
    

	Hi Karen - we've sort of tried kitty jail, but Smudge is smart and
	fast :^}  She knows that we're upset with her, and makes a beeline
	for the cellar, where she has several inaccessible (to us) hiding
	places.  We've settled into an uneasy peace lately.  Smudge is
	isolated in the cellar while we're at work and while we're sleeping.
	When she comes up I make a fuss of her, but the slightest move in
	Jenny's direction sends her back down.  It's too early to tell if
	this is working or not.

	Sandy + the 5 meatheads

    
    Smudge went to see the vet Saturday morning.  All the way down there,
    she promised me that she'd behave if only I'd turn the car around :^}
    She had her regular checkup (she's fine - just a bit on the chunky
    side), and I spoke to the vet about Ovaban.  He'd never heard of it
    being used to control aggressiveness, but agreed that it couldn't hurt. 
    The only thing he wasn't sure of was dosage - he used the same formula
    as with dogs, going by weight.  The Ovabans are 5mg, and he prescribed
    a half tablet every other day for three days, then 1/2 a tablet twice a
    week.  Does this sound right to those of you who've tried this on your
    cats (Deb?)?  We've also got to watch her for any signs of going into
    heat, as then we'd have to reduce the dosage even further.  
    
    Smudge has been allowed upstairs all weekend, and has only been overly
    aggressive twice, at which time she was immediately sent downstairs. 
    She's confined to the cellar at night.  I'm home on vacation this week
    (yay!), so I'll be able to watch her full-time.
    
    Thanks for all your input!
    
    Sandy, Smudge, Tas, Jenny, C.C. and Beau the magnificent
    

Hang in there Sandy, maybe Smudge can learn to behave....

		good luck,

		    D

    With my cat, we gave 1 tablet every day for three days, and then 1/2
    tablet once a week.  My cat weighed about 12 pounds.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Jo