Conference misery::feline_v1

         Our other cat, Loki (another neutered male), is afraid of Midnight
    and hasn't gone near her.  When I lived with my parents, Loki and my
    parents' cat 9 years ago, Loki started mounting the other cat at the
    tender age of 5 months.  Loki was neutered at 6 months.  So I was kind
    of expecting this behavior from Loki, not Bigfoot.
    
         Hope Loki doesn't start doing this too :-( ...

    I think the earliest you could spay would be six months.  Your vet
    may consider a bit earlier, but probably not too much.  I guess if
    you try really soaking him down with the C.A.T. every time he
    exhibits this behavior.  
    
    Good Luck
    
    E.T.

    Hmmm, I have been having problems with Kelsey lately exhibiting the
    "back-up-to-a-wall/cabinet/door-and shake-tail" motions.  He does not
    spray, just goes through the motions of spraying and I also noticed,
    oddly enough, that he appears to do this when he is happy, like while I
    am feeding him or when I get home from work at night, or just start
    talking to him.  He backs up, shakes his tail and then rubs his head
    against me.  I'm not really sure I would consider this a problem as
    stated above, but am concerned that he might actually start spraying
    if I bring in another cat, especially female.  He seems to be very
    territorial over me lately!!  Maybe he knows what I am up to!
    
    I hope that Bigfoot stops spraying soon.  Several of my friends have
    had good luck with Ovaban.  I think the idea is to gradually wean them
    off it as the aggressive behavior begins to subside.
    

         Fluffy used to do the back-up-and-shake-tail-but-don't-produce-
    anything motions too.  That's what I thought Bigfoot was doing ...
    until I looked at the wall :-( .
    
         If I spray him with the C.A.T I wonder if he'll trail urine during
    his dash away from the water stream ...
    
         Cats - can't live with them ;-) - can't live without them - but I
    wish I could *reason* with them ;-) ;-) ;-) !!
    
    					- Andrea

    Call me silly but what in tarnation is CAT?!   Am I out there or what!
    
    Lisa

    
    Also you might consider keeping Midnight and Bigfoot separated when you
    are not there to supervise.  This may have 2 benefits 1.  No injury to
    the little girl, 2. MAYBE being separated from the female will help to
    calm down bigfoots "Male" response. It will certainly contain the
    spraying to one room until you get the situation under control.
    
    Good luck, and remember, every cat is different.  You may have to try
    several different methods to stop this behavior until you find the one
    or the combination that works.
    
    Feline Helpful,
    
    Sue & Panther & Spot
    

    
   re .5
    
                                                   
   >                                       -< Say WHAT! >-
   >
   > Call me silly but what in tarnation is CAT?!   Am I out there or what!
   > 
   > Lisa
   
    C.A.T - Catitude Adjustment Tool - Your basic spray bottle. Set at MIST
    for warning shots across the bow of your cat (stops them without a
    direct hit) or at STREAM for "get that cat's attention in a hurry"
    mode.
    
    also wonderful toy for target practice by immature males.
    
    jack
    (who'd never misuse such a device - yeah, sure)

    re: 3
    
    Roberta, I have one that does that also!  My Alexander(WeeZoo).
    I call it the "WeeZoo Dance" - nothing comes out, but boy can
    he shake that tail!!!!!!!!  He's soooooo funny!  He's been 
    doing this for most of his 8 years of life!
    
    E.T.

    Andrea,

    I had a different thought when I read your base note -- could Bigfoot 
    have a urinary tract infection or other physical problem that would
    make urinating in the box painful? Is he only spraying while in the 
    litter box? How old is he? Are you using a different type of litter
    with something in it that culd be irritating him? Although he is 
    showing amorous behavior toward Midnight, his spraying may not be 
    related to that.

    When Junie (RIP) got to be in his teens he started to do something
    similar to Bigfoot's behavior. He would squat to urinate, then rise
    so that before he was finished he would be peeing on the wall next to
    the litter box. He had lost muscle tone and may also have had some 
    arthritis and just couldn't squat long enough to do his business. I 
    minimized that problem by getting a high-sided cardboard carton large 
    enough to hold the litterbox, lined it with plastic, put in a 1/4 inch 
    layer of newspaper, then the litterbox. It was easier to throw out the 
    newspaper (and the plastic, periodically) than to keep cleaning up 
    the wall. 

    Cubby, who is 3 1/2, also does no-spray spraying sometimes when he 
    gets/wants attention from me. I don't remember exactly when he started 
    doing that. Cubby had cystitis about 1 1/2 years ago. When it was just 
    starting, he would spray (for real) right in front of me -- the bathroom 
    door, cabinets, the dust ruffle on the bed. He had never done this 
    before; it was very unlike him. There was no apparent reason for it, 
    either, as there were no new cats, everybody was altered, etc. Then the 
    cystitis and Cubby's behavior got worse; there was no question as to 
    what it was -- I got him to the vet right away for treatment, and he's 
    been fine since. But now I notice whenever he does the no-spray routine 
    and keep a close eye on him.

    I have also noticed that my neutered males sometimes vibrate their 
    tails when urinating in the box; it seems to help them get every last 
    drop out. :-)

    If Bigfoot is only spraying in the litterbox, I don't think it would 
    be a good idea to use the C.A.T. on him -- it might discourage him from 
    using the box altogether! If he's doing it in other areas, then I would 
    definitely use it -- unless he's sick, of course.

    Life with cats is never dull -- good luck!

    Linda

    My vet bases her decision on when to spay partially on how much
    the cat in question weighs.  We did Tilly when she was 4 pounds
    since I had a whole male in the house and didn't want to risk an
    accidental pregnancy.  Tilly wasn't quite 5 months old I think.
    She is now about 4 years old, and the early spaying had no ill effects
    on her health.  The reason for gauging the weight is so that they
    can safely anesthetize the cat.
    
    Bigfoot is trying to establish dominance over Midnight, so probably
    spaying her won't help that much.  They need to work it out.  You
    might talk with the vet and find out if there is any type of natural
    medication you can give him to help him calm down and leave her
    alone.  Maybe Bock Flowers or something.
    
    Jo

         Bigfoot didn't spray last night, so I don't know if it was just a
    "once in a blue moon" incident, getting overexcited, or not.
    
         I never thought of a urinary tract infection, Linda.  Bigfoot is
    12 years old; his brother Loki (9) had a bout of cystitis last year and
    early this year, but he didn't exhibit that kind of behavior - he kept
    going in the box every two minutes.  I'm happy to say that Loki is
    perfectly fine now.  I will keep an eye on Bigfoot just in case it is
    that and not macho-ness ;-) .
    
         Midnight is about 3 pounds now and about 3� months old.  It's a
    little tough with her as she was abandoned, so the vets are guessing
    her age.  I thought that maybe she was starting to go into heat already
    and that's why I thought I might have to spay her early.  If you think
    it's a dominance thing though, Jo, then the spay probably won't have
    that much of an effect.
    
         Midnight thinks that Bigfoot is "Daddy" and is *always* on his
    case, chasing him, chewing on him, etc.  When Bigfoot's in the mood to
    play, that's okay, but when he's not, well, maybe he's spraying in
    frustration ???
    
         Midnight is still having litterbox problems - she pees in the box
    okay but poops in the box half of the time and on the floor the other
    half of the time.  Maybe Bigfoot is upset about that (he and Loki are
    both clean kitties)?  I'm hoping it's just the antibiotics that are
    causing her to do that - we had two weeks of no accidents until then. 
    Maybe she lost her mother too soon so doesn't realize that she should
    poop in the *box*, not on the *floor*.  If she keeps doing that after
    she's off her meds, maybe I'll need to borrow a cage from one of you
    kind-hearted breeders!
    
         Thanks for all of the advice/suggestions.  I intend to ask the vet
    on the 29th, but I still wanted a little "advance" expertise.
    
    					- Andrea

    Andrea - does Midnight currently have diarrea?  If so, that may 
    explain her not using the box.  That will happen with my cats some-
    times if they have diarrea.  Try the plain yogurt trick

         Nope, good firm stools.  But they are *dark*, probably because of
    the Amoxicillin.

    I've just been through all this with my two. Jimmy was behaving in a
    definately masculine way to poor little Rosie (Poor??!!).
    
    Anyway, we separated them. Jimmy hated this, but Rosie didn't seem to
    mind all that much (meant she got a bit of peace, I suppose).
    
    We telephoned the vet to ask her advice and, at first, she wouldn't
    consider spaying either of them until Jimmy was 6 months and Rosie was
    5 months (there is a month's difference in their ages). 
    Then, when we explained the problem, she said it was "an emergency" and
    agreed to spay Jimmy at 5 months. We still have to wait for Rosie
    though. 
    He had his Op about a week or so ago and, although he was very sleepy
    for a couple of days, he seems fine now.
    It has calmed him down a bit, although the pair of them still fight
    (Rosie starts a good deal of this, I suspect!).
    
    I expect Rosie's op will be worse, though.

    Re. .14 -
    
         Thanks for the experience.  Seems to confirm that I can't get
    Midnight spayed before 6 months of age.
    
         Bigfoot was a lot better last night; he played with her, but
    didn't act masculine and, most importantly, didn't spray.  It could be
    that Midnight played with Bigfoot so much that night and got him so
    agitated that he sprayed.  If it's just an occasional thing, I can put
    up with it until January.  It's just if it occurs all the time that it
    would be a problem.
    
         I don't really want to separate them if I can avoid it; Loki
    refuses to go near Midnight, so the only companion she has is Bigfoot. 
    But as you say, if things start getting out of hand or he starts
    "pounding" ;-) on her, then I'll have to separate them.  Only three
    more months ... ;-) 

    Since you don't know how old Midnight really is, then it seems to
    me that you should consider keeping a very close eye on her rather
    than waiting 3 more months.  If she is getting her adult teeth,
    then she is at least 5 months already.  You can check for that.
    Strays can fool you.  I have rescued enough strays in my day to
    know that they can often appear younger or older than you think.
    An adult stray often looks many years older than they really are,
    due to the tough life they have had.  On the other hand, stray kittens
    appear to be much younger than they really are due to the lack of
    food and proper nourishment.  Teeth are usually a good indication
    of age.
    
    Jo

    Jo,
    
         Her fang teeth are about 1/4" long.  I'm assuming that those are
    still baby teeth.  My other cats' fang teeth are about 1/2" to 3/4" 
    long.  I'm assuming that Midnight's fang teeth will be that size when 
    they are adult teeth - is that a good assumption??
    
         My vet guessed her age at 3-5 weeks when I got her; she was so
    tiny that she wasn't sure of her sex!  But boy was she starving ... I
    assume malnutrition played a part in her tiny life.
    
         I want to catch her before her first heat (don't want her going
    through that - or ticking the boys off either), but I don't want to do
    her before she can handle the anesthesia.  Things were so much easier
    with Loki - when he started to mount the other cat, he was ready for
    snip-snip ;-) !!
    
         Will keep a good eye on all of them.  Thanks!

    Keep an eye on her gums.  At about 5 months, she will start teething.
    The adult teeth will start to grow in and push the kitten teeth
    out.  Sometimes the cat will be walking around with double canines
    for a while. :^)  When her teeth change, then you can be fairly
    certain that she is 5 months old.
    
    Jo
    
    PS - let's hope that Midnight's canines don't grow to be the size
    of Loki and Bigfoot's until she is their size!! ;^)  She would look
    pretty funny with her canines dragging the ground. :^)
    
     

    re: strays and size - Now Bob fooled us the other way.  I thought he
    was about 10 months old when we caught him because he was already
    close to the size of my other adults.  It wasn't until he more than
    doubled in size (to his current 14-15 lbs) that I realized he couldn't
    have been more than 6 months old when we caught him.  What reinforced
    that was when I realized that to have been 10 months when we caught him
    he'd have had to have been born in early February which isn't likely
    for a feral cat.
      N
    

    re. 18
    
         Then I could use her as a rototiller ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) !!!!!

re: double fangs

	Josh got double fangs when his 'grown-up' teeth came in.  However, his
sister Becky had *no* fangs for a while.  So, while Josh was busy double-fanging
Becky, poor Beebs could only gum her brother to death.  She made up for it 
later, though.  All my paperback books have been 'snake-bit'!

    What is this with the books?  At least thanks to sweetie's
    efforts, I don't even need to put bookplates in mine. (I believe
    that's my book, isn't it?  notice the tooth marks....)
    

    I had a cat that went into heat when she was about 5 months
    old.  My vet said that he could spay her even though she
    wasn't six months.  Whenever a cat goes into heat, then she's
    old enough.  She was done, and has had absoluely no problems.

	I had both my males done at 5 months with no adverse effects.

	Heather