Conference misery::feline_v1

    I understand your frustrations - it is bad enough when it happens once
    in a while - let alone persistently.
    
    I would suggest trying a few things first such as:
    
    Completely de-odorising the carpets with special products for this
    purpose (I think other notes have mentioned them).  You may get rid of
    the stain, but the cats rely on smell, and if they are consistently
    using the same places, they probably think it's just an extension of
    their litter tray.
    
    Ensure that the litter box is kept very clean.
    
    Try a different brand of litter (this was the cause of the problem with
    my 2)
    
    Do a search of this notes file for the keyword LITTER_PROBLEMS
    They are obviously getting confused somewhere along the line.  If you
    look at previous notes you'll see that people have had similar problems
    which have been solved - so dont' despair yet!!  
    
    I don't know how many of these things you've tried, but I wouldn't give
    your cats away until you've tried them all - especially since the
    solution may be easy and there are no other reasons for giving them up.
    
    [Ruth, Sophie and Henri-who-has-wet-the-duvet-at-least-twice-but-has-
    always-had-an understandable-reason-for-doing-so...!]

first, lets not kid ourselves, finding a home for adults cats with a history
of urination problems is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.  If you place them in a shelter, 
you can expect them to stay there until their time is up and then 
THEY WILL BE DESTROYED.  This is a STRONG reason for you to try very hard to 
solve this problem.  Your VERY VALID issue concerning your child is an 
EQUALLY STRONG reason to make a very painful decision if you cannot find 
a solution...

Things to try:

	1)  get both cats thoroughly examined by a vet.  Rule out any
	    possible health issues.

	2)  kennel the cats and completely deodorize the carpets/floors
	    using an enzyme product for such purposes.  Your vet can
	    probably recommend a product, a kennel owner/manager can
	    recommend products, and there are notes in this conference
	    that discuss these products.  I would recommend not only
	    cleaning with the product, but keeping the cats out of the
	    house until all is thoroughly dry.

	3)  Re-train the cats, individully, by restricting the cat to
	    an enclosed area with food, water, and cat box.  You, ideally,
	    should rent a "breeder's cage" for this purpose.  It should
	    be an area large enough to leave the cat THERE 24 hours a day
	    and force the cat to live with the cat box.  If you have any
	    signs that the cat is not happy with the litter, like messing
	    beside a clean box, peeing over the side of the box, try
	    another brand of litter.  Cats can be extremely picky about
	    litter issues - my 4 won't use TIDY CAT MC, but LOVE TIDY
	    CAT 3 - go figure.  Try plain, unscented, clay litter, or
	    one of the "sand-like" litters.  When the cat is using
	    the litter box consistently, start allowing it out into
	    the living area with you WHILE YOU ARE WATCHING CONSTANTLY.
	    If neither of you can watch, restrict the cat to the cage
	    or bathroom (a good alternative to the cage if you can't
	    get one).  After a couple of weeks, you should have the
	    cat re-trained and you can move the litter box (after one
	    use so the scent is there) to the desired location and have
	    the cat consistently use the box.  You have to visit with
	    and spend time with the cat, of course, while it is under
	    "house arrest"....

	4)  Keep the litter CLEAN - turn the litter and filter out
	    solids twice daily.  Change the litter out completely
	    at least once a week....try twice a week if there is
	    any sign that the litter is saturated and starting to
	    smell.  If it smells bad to you, it smells HORRIBLE to
	    the cat - the sense of smell is so much more acute.

	5)  Keep the litter out of direct sunlight.  Place the boxes
	    in private spaces (out of the way corners) and not too
	    close together. 

Good luck.  If you have more problems after you try these things, maybe
someone else in this file has other ideas to offer.  If you ABSOLUTELY
HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO GET RID OF THESE CATS, I strongly suggest you take
them to your vet and make sure they are HUMANELY destroyed, with YOU
there with them, rather than in a shelter, surrounded and handled by 
strangers, and terrified.  

    Re .2 - direct and to the point, bravo!
     
     I suggest the cages mentioned in .2, or if you have the space,
    build what I believe is called a stud cage, and confine the cats
    there when you are not home.  I think I remember seeing something
    about these type cages here, but if not, someone will be able to
    describe it to you if you ask.  It's a large type cage.   
    
    All shelters are currently packed to the rafters, so finding a 
    home for your cats is very poor right now.
    
    Good luck-
    
    L-
    
    

    Another thing that I've found works, is putting aluminium foil over the
    "spot".  Or a food dish!  
    
    Don't know why, but sometimes these methods do work.
    
    

    My Black Thunder had the same problem but we solved it.  I tried 
    confining her, using *NO* indoor and outdoor spray, enzyme spray, etc.
    
    What finally broke her of the habit was putting down aluminum foil in
    the spots that she used consistently and not letting her on the bed,
    one of her favorite *spots*.
    
    I thought the aluminum foil was a *strange* idea but was at my wits
    end.  It worked!!!!
    
    Good luck,
    
    Sandi and the Storm Troopers
    
    

    I think that since your not home the cage idea is the best. I'm
    about to order one thru my vet (3'x3'x4'). Since they probably sleep
    all day while your gone the confinement will suit them just fine.
    I live in a small ranch with 2 crawlers on the rugs and 10 cats
    with lockup being the only method that keep each out of the others
    way.

    A little off the subject, but....
    
    Are spayed females ever know to "spray" or mark?  One of ours has 
    urinated in various places, the last two (that we know of) were against
    the doors on each side of our entertainment system.....a strange place
    to go with a nice carpet available.
    
    
    Bob

    These are all excellent ideas. Remember cats are all very clean
    animals. I believe when they are kittens they need to be trained but at
    the age of your cats it probably is the need for a different litter
    type or to be kept cleaner. What they do is a way of saying "hey buddy
    clean up this mess I need to go". If you don't keep it real clean they
    will get even. You made a conscious decision  to have pets you owe them
    your best effort. I have 7 cats and my wife and I are expecting our
    first child so I understand your concern. You may also try more than 1
    box and put baking soda and waxpaper in the bottom it helps absorb the
    smell. I'm mostly a reader so many may not recognize the crew. It is a
    great conference.
    
    Kevin (me) Sebastian,Jake,Elwood,Iggy,Bullwinkle,Rocky,And Scrappy.

    Yes, spayed females do spray.  Pandora went through a long period
    (about a year or two) of spraying indoors, and driving us crazy.
    Nothing much seemed to stop her - we even had her on hormone tablets
    for a while.  Eventually, we got an electronic cat door, and she
    has not sprayed since (which may be coincidence), although she still
    does it outside.
    
    PS  Pandora's `targets' included me (once) and a visitor to the
    house (once) - possibly the most embarrassing moment in my whole
    life!  But then Pandora is possibly the most perverse cat I have
    ever met.
    
    Incidentally, plain vinegar is the best thing I have found for removing
    the smell.
    
    Helen.

    Re: .9
    
    Thanks...it appears that she is trying to mark some territory.
    We've tried vinegar/water which seems to help some, given you
    can find all the spots!  Do you use straight vinegar?
    
    
    Bob

    Just a quick FYI, aluminum foil was mentioned is a couple previous
    notes. What the foil does is to "spook" the cat away from the area by
    the noise it makes when stepped on.  It not only works great to keep
    them from soiling an area, but also is great on places where you don't
    want them at all like your new bedspread, or scratching on the sofa
    arms etc.  I sort of learned by accident, in a effort to get an odorproof 
    area around the box I tried putting foil under the litter box (it was
    *in*  the bathroom closet but still on carpeting) and discoverd the cat 
    very gingerly jumping over the foil into the covered litter box, or not 
    using it all but leaving presents just outside the perimeters of the foil.
    The idea of putting the food dish over the spot is because a cat will
    not soil in the vicinity of its food source.
    Just a word of warning!  I had a brainstorm one day that almost,
    literally killed me.  I thought that if I cleaned the area on the
    cellar floor where she had missed with bleach it would eliminate the
    odor.  Well it did and almost eliminated ME.  Keep in mind that amonia
    and bleach make a LETHAL gas (the same kind used in gas chamber
    executions)  So the bleach I used for cleaning and the amonia from the
    urine made one NASTY combination.  The fumes rose from the cellar to
    the rest of the house quickly, unfortunate too was it was one of the
    coldest days of the winter and we were forced to open every window to
    vent the house quickly!  Not just regualar chorline bleach but many
    commercial cleaners contain bleach and cholrine products.  
    
    Bottom line, house cleaning nuts BEWARE!!

    slight rathole here...
    
    i second the lethal gas statement.  my mom, ever the cleaning nut's
    cleaning nut, once went one better and mixed chlorine bleach with
    ammonia AND comet cleanser.  also on a day the house was closed.  she
    was brought to her knees and crawled out of the bathroom.  she couldn't
    breathe right for quite a while, and ended up with "pitted" lungs for
    her efforts!   ack!!!
    
    diane (who doesn't even know what bleach and ammonia are), stella &
    stanley