Conference misery::feline_v1

    What about, kidnap the cat, get it spayed and then find it a new home?
    They would just think she had run off and wouldn't blame the neighbour.
    She could also do that for the male a few months later.
    
    I agree, its a very awkward situation to be in as you can't really
    afford to fall out with the neighbours - makes everyones life a
    misery.
    
    I hope the neighbours just change their minds!
    
    Lisa plus P&R.
    

    Maybe she could list the benefits of spaying & neutering to her
    neighbor, then offer to pay part of the cost?  We could probably take
    up a collection through this notes file to help pay for this.
    
    Just a suggestion.
    Sonia

	Well Nancy, you an I have had this conversation a few years back.....
	and I had decided not to do anything because the person would 
	know who it was and I didn't want to be on his bad side.

	I am probably going to get flamed for this, but it is how I feel....

	I do not think kidnapping is a solution.  It's not right.  And I would
	be ripped if someone did it to me (what is the saying `do unto others
	as you would have done unto you..").  Sure, it is not the most
	ideal life for a cat, but different people have different ideas
	regarding the humane treatment of animals.  And who are we to decide
	if someone is right or wrong???????

	I would give the packet you gave to me (to give to the guy I 
	had the same situation w/) which has the leaflet on the benefits
	of spaying and neutering, and a low cost spay application.  And,
	very nicely talk about it from time to time.  I have found this to be 
	the most effective way to get the message across.

Or, you could mention to the neighbor after talking about the spay certificate
how sad it is to have to keep paying higher taxes in the communities for animal
shelters and their maintenance, and it would be wonderful if people would neuter
their pets so that maybe that money could be used for education, etc.

        <<< Note 3771.3 by FRAGLE::PELUSO "PAINTS; color your corral" >>>
                  -< Remember:  it could happen to you, too. >-


	Well Nancy, you an I have had this conversation a few years back.....
	and I had decided not to do anything because the person would 
	know who it was and I didn't want to be on his bad side.

	I am probably going to get flamed for this, but it is how I feel....

	I do not think kidnapping is a solution.  It's not right.  And I would
	be ripped if someone did it to me (what is the saying `do unto others
	as you would have done unto you..").  Sure, it is not the most
	ideal life for a cat, but different people have different ideas
	regarding the humane treatment of animals.  And who are we to decide
	if someone is right or wrong???????

	I would give the packet you gave to me (to give to the guy I 
	had the same situation w/) which has the leaflet on the benefits
	of spaying and neutering, and a low cost spay application.  And,
	very nicely talk about it from time to time.  I have found this to be 
	the most effective way to get the message across.

    If the cat is kidnapped aand taken to another home, the cretins will
    probably get a replacement.  I have nothing against kidnapping,
    spaying, and returning it.
    

    Let's get this straight for the record.  Are we endorsing KIDnapping or
    CATnapping?  My cats love to nap!  ;')
    

    Well, I'll get a copy of the benefits of spay/neuter to my friend.
    
    Its a tough situation and I hope no one will Flame Michelle because
    every situation is different.  
    
    I read a book a while ago on communicating with your cat and was
    horrified to read that the author had an unspayed cat that had
    a litter twice a year for 13 years!!!!!!!!!!! And this was someone
    who seemed to know her cats. 
    
    I still don't think its right, however.  
      N

    
    OK, here goes...
    
    This IS America.  If someone chooses to have a cat that propagates,
    then that is their choice.  If you steal the cat and get it spayed, you
    are doing no better than the Chinese government, which forces
    abortions and sterilization.  Maybe the cat likes being pregnant.  (Humans 
    sure like to practice, maybe cats do too.)  Granted there is a difference 
    here.  I am comparing a woman's choice to be pregnant with a human's 
    choice to let their cat be pregnant.  There's one important difference - 
    cat's can't talk.  We don't know what they want.  
    
    So, whether you believe that the cat owns itself or the person owns the
    cat, I don't think that you have to right to dictate morality to either
    the cat or it's owner.  (If the cat owns itself, you still don't know
    what it wants to do with it's body.)
    
    Rachael, (pro-choice for cats too)
    
    ps : For the good of society, I had my cats neutered and spayed.
    

>    This IS America.  If someone chooses to have a cat that propagates,
>    then that is their choice.  If you steal the cat and get it spayed, you
>    are doing no better than the Chinese government, which forces
>    abortions and sterilization.  Maybe the cat likes being pregnant.  (Humans 
>    sure like to practice, maybe cats do too.)  Granted there is a difference 
>    here.  I am comparing a woman's choice to be pregnant with a human's 
>    choice to let their cat be pregnant.  There's one important difference - 
>    cat's can't talk.  We don't know what they want.  
    
Rachael, 

several points:

	1)  humans - that's u and me - pay a whole lot of tax dollars
	    to deal with the unwanted kittens - either when they are
	    alive thru the community contributions to the shelters that
	    destroy feral cats/kittens, or thru the regular road maintenance
	    crews that remove dead animals from the roads.

	    In my county, this is a $1.3 million dollar investment to
	    deal with unwanted dogs and cats (52% of this is for cat
	    control, by the way).  This money could be supporting 
	    shelters for battered women or programs for the homeless.
	    I'd rather spend it that way.

	2)  feral, uncared for cats/kittens present a community health
	    risk to our pets/children/ourselves.  They harbor parasites
	    that can be passed to pets and in some very ugly cases, to
	    humans, thru contact with their feces (which, when a cat is
	    not restrained, can be assumed to be in any/all soil).

	3)  This human is not allowing his cat a choice - we have no way
	    of finding out what the cat wants, true, however, there is
	    no clinical evidence of any cat suffering depression or
	    other emotional problems indicative of a sense of loss or
	    deprivation from being spayed.  There is a great deal of
	    clinical evidence that a female cat that is spayed is
	    healthier for a longer lifetime than an unspayed female.
	    The same goes for males that are neutered.

	    We do know that, as long as she is un-spayed, the cat has
	    NO choice - nature impels cats to breed until they are
	    exhausted and die.  Nature is NOT compassionate, it is
	    efficient.  If enough kittens are born, even though most
	    will die quite horribly, a few will survive to carry on
	    the species.  That is the natural imperative at work.
	    Cats are NOT NATIVE to the USA - continent or island, and
	    without human intervention, they either cannot survive
	    or they survive in such numbers that they threaten native
	    species and habitat.  WE - the humans in this equation -
	    brought them to this part of the world and we are responsible
	    for both maintaining them AND controlling their population
	    and behavior to minimize impact on the environment around
	    us.  They are also not native to most other areas of the
	    world which they occupy and the human responsibility is the same.

It is important to the community that no cat be allowed to continually
breed.  If the cat's "owner" will not take responsibility for the cat,
then it is important that someone does.  It is to EVERY CAT OWNER'S
advantage to control situations such as this.  More and more communities
are passing laws that will greatly restrict what people can do with
their cats....more and more communities are realizing that the price
ALL citizens must pay because SOME citizens refuse to take care of their
cats (and live up to their responsibilities to minimize the damage and
nuisance factor involved) IS TOO HIGH.  We may all see the day when we
cannot HAVE cats as pets unless we are privileged enough to own
property outside the confines of a city/town/village/county...I don't
want to see that happen.

    Well, you can flame all you like.
    
    I DID katnapp a boy, and DID have him neutered for reasons I discussed
    in a previous note.  I would do it again, firstly, to save my house
    from damage and odor, to save my indoor cats from being tormented
    from the outside, and for, in my opinion, the good of the cat I am
    having neutered.
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    E.T.

    re: .9   VERY WELL SAID!!!!!!!!!!
    
    I DO agree that we have to respect people's freedom, but I don't
    think that extends to abuse.  If someone was abusing their child
    I don't think you'd say that its their right to use their freedom
    in this manner.  
    
    Speaking as someone who's makes some efforts to clean up what other
    people have caused I think that failing to correct the situation is
    the greater sin.  The kittens we caught - none were over 7 months
    old - were in horrible shape!  Relative to what they could have had
    when we caught them - FIV, FLV etc - they were in good shape, but
    it took MONTHS to get them healthy enough to where they were no
    longer a danger to my cats and to where I could place them in homes.
    
    I think the actions discussed should not be taken without due consid-
    eration, but I think that in a case like this its a choice of the
    lesser evil.  My personal opinion is to support the efforts of those
    who would spay other people's cats for them.
      Nancy DC

    Re: .0

    It's great that you spoke up and tried to educate your neighbors. 
    You can't make them do anything they don't want to do, but it might 
    help to change their thinking.

    In this case, I don't see anything wrong with temporarily kidnapping 
    the cats to have them spayed and neutered, on the grounds of prevention 
    of cruelty to animals. If the kittens are being born who-knows-where 
    outside the home and are dying from starvation, exposure, predators, 
    or whatever, this could be considered cruelty to animals and abandonment. 
    (It's obvious to me that it's cruel, but proving things legally is not 
    always so easy. Sometimes I think it's a shame that people can't be 
    punished for their callous attitude alone.)

    From the information given it appears that these people don't feel 
    they have a problem and therefore don't feel a need for a solution. 
    Having the female cat spayed would not change much of anything from 
    the owners' perspective. They still wouldn't see any kittens. The 
    only difference would be that their cat wouldn't get pregnant any
    more and they wouldn't have to endure the less than delightful aspects 
    of a female cat in heat. Nothing would really be taken away from them. 
    It's not as if they *want* the kittens. They might even be grateful 
    that their cats were fixed, once they saw the positive changes in 
    behavior spaying and neutering can make. They might even change their 
    ways and make it a habit in the future! 

    And so what if they know who did it? What are they going to do, 
    report the "offender" to the police? "Officer, this nasty person had 
    my cat spayed." The worst might be that they'd never speak to you 
    again. Personally, if I had neighbors like this, I'd find it very 
    hard to be friends with them anyway. 

    There are laws against cruelty to animals; the SPCA in your state
    might be a good place to find out what the laws are. If this case was
    reported to them they might be able to step in and take action, or at 
    least talk to the people.

    Good luck,

    Linda

    The majority of folks who don't believe in spaying and neutering their
    pets cannot be turned around with education.  I find that trying to
    convince them otherwise usually falls on deaf ears, so when I encounter
    a situation that needs cleaning up, I just do it.  This way, there are
    no repurcussions, and the party involved has no idea who tampered with
    their "pet."  99.9% of the time after surgery, the cat decides to live
    with me anyway!!
    
    --Roberta
    

    Re: .14

    Yes, there are some people who don't believe in spaying and neutering
    their pets -- it's not their problem, they don't care, they just won't 
    do it. For these people your solution is probably the only solution.

    However, there are people for whom education can and does work. They're
    the ones who say:

	I'm planning on having her spayed but want her to have a litter 
	first

	Everyone loves kittens; we'll have no trouble finding good homes 
	for them

	I can't afford to have her spayed right now

	She's just 5 months old, she *couldn't* have kittens yet

	How can you tell if your cat's in heat?

	What? There's a pet overpopulation problem?

    Sometimes people -- even those who've had pets for years -- are just 
    inexperienced and unaware. Sometimes it's just a matter of explaining
    the facts of life (and death) in the animal world to them. They *may* 
    change their thinking if someone takes the time to explain the problems 
    and solutions to them. Even the diehards can change if they keep hearing 
    the same message over and over again from enough people. I've seen it 
    happen. There is hope!

    Oops, excuse me for being preachy; I must be feeling positive today. :-)

    Linda

    Linda, I agree that in some cases, it is just a matter of being
    uninformed on the owner's part, and hearing the facts can do a world of
    good.  I guess I should have stated in my note that my experiences have
    indicated that the persons involved simply don't care about the
    welfare of their pets, and don't deserve to have them.  I've lived next
    door to some pretty rotten people!!  Luckily, our present neighbors are
    cat folks, with 2 of their own, neutered of course :^).
    
    
    --Roberta
    

    Gee, Roberta, it must have been pretty depressing living next door
    to people like that. I wouldn't waste my breath trying to talk to
    them, either. I guess you just have to analyze each individual 
    situation and take the appropriate action. 
    
    Linda

    I think I know how Roberta feels - I have some real ding-dongs
    next door to me.  They leave their dog tied outside 352 days
    a year, year after year.  sigh  The poor thing sits on the
    frozen ground.  

    
    these fools are probably so ignorant, they would just think the cat
    had gone through the "change"--if they even realized she had stopped
    having kittens!   good luck...
    
    diane s&s
    

    
    I agree that letting your cat get pregnant constanly  is bad.  I agree
    that animals should be spayed/neutered.  But I DONT agree that I or
    anyone else should play God.  This is the attitude that is sweeping our
    country and raising our taxes.  Perhaps the money being spent for
    animals should be spent on humans instead.  Great idea.  Perhaps
    companies should be pressured into taking on that responsibility. 
    (Make it profitable to be nice.)But I don't think that means that we
    should go door to door cat-napping promiscuous cats.  OR asking
    promiscuous cats' owners if they care about their cats and on the basis
    of that, cat-napping them.  Who are we?  How about calling one of those
    agencies that we've paid so much for and reporing abusive behavior? 
    And you could definitely be sued for cat-napping and neutering/spaying
    a cat.  They might sue you for future income that *could* have been
    generated from kittens.  Or for emotional harm to the owner.  (The
    owner's belief in the beauty of life was renewed each time he/she saw
    their cat give birth.)  Yes, I know that's all BS but there's lots of
    BS in courts these days.  I would not incourage anyone to do anything
    illegal.  I'm sure Digital would not want any encouragement of illegal
    behavior going on in their notes files!
    
    

    re: .20 -  I agree that we need to use discression in our actions
    and I'd like to respond to three points you made.
    
    1. regarding those agencies that we send so much money to -
    it is very well known that groups like the MSPCA are severely
    underfunded to tackle a problem of this magnitude.  We, therefore,
    can not just leave it all up to them and expect the problem to
    be taken care of.  If we had that attitude then alot of helpful
    things would never happen - things like fundraisers for a local
    homeless shelter or aid to the elderly.  There are groups to deal
    with those issues too so why should we intervene?
    
    2. Neutering someone elses cat - I feel that in some cases, not
    to act constitutes standing by and watching something bad happen.
    If a cat is suffering because its owners don't understand that 
    they should get the cat medical treatment or get it neutered then
    I feel there are times when we SHOULD act and intervene.  I'll
    never know if Jesse had "owners" but I do know that if he did,
    they were negligent.  I will NEVER regret taking him in and to
    the vet.
    
    3."  Perhaps the money being spent for animals should be spent on 
    humans instead."  My personal feeling here is that the attitude
    that humans are more important and more valuable than animals
    is directly contributing to many problems in our world.  Its ok
    to hunt animals to extinction or to destroy rainforests and all
    the life contained therein because it serves humans!  ALL life
    is valuable and I don't feel that anyone should ever feel its 
    wrong to contribute to the welfare of animals.  We all do our best
    and all contributions are valuable.  One of my favorite quotes is:
    
    "Teaching a child not to step on a caterpillar is just as important
    to the child as to the caterpillar."
    
    My .05  (its too much to be called my .02)
    
    Nancy DC
    
    

    Thanks, Nancy, I couldn't have responded better.
    
    BTW, I think this is the 2nd time you've put that quote in....I've used
    it many times since I read it the first time.  It's so true...
    
    cin
    

And, along with the idea that animals are not intrinsically "more" 
valuable than humans, stands the idea that humans are responsible for
"repairing" the damage we cause by moving animals out of their natural
habitat or intervening in the natural controls of nature on population
density.  We have "damaged" the domestic feline's relationship with
nature - by moving cats into environments to which they are not
native, and where they must depend on us to both keep them alive
AND control their number so that they do not render greater harm or
over-populate to the point of extinction.

No human has the right to betray that trust...and all humans have the
responsibility.

A comment on potential for "legal" action if you take action to
control the movement/reproduction of a cat:

virtually every community in the USA has "nuisance" control laws.  A
free-roaming cat is considered a nuisance the instant anyone complains
about the damage/hassle caused by the cat.  The "owner" of such a cat
is legally liable for any and all costs associated with the nuisance.
If anyone who has a free-roaming cat ever threatens lawsuit, they are
"claiming" the cat and CAN BE PROSECUTED.  Their lawyer would strongly
recommend, therefore, that they do not CLAIM their cat, much less
press for legal action.  This data is from my lawyer when I asked about
this situation.

Well put, Nancy.  The first time I saw that quote was in a flyer from 
the Humane Education Society of the United States.  I believe it was 
part of their information packet they send to school teachers who have 
agreed to educate their classes on humane treatment of all creatures.

Pat

     <<< Note 3771.23 by FORTSC::WILDE "Ask yourself..am I a happy cow?" >>>
                       -< about the probability of suit >-

And, along with the idea that animals are not intrinsically "more" 
valuable than humans, stands the idea that humans are responsible for
"repairing" the damage we cause by moving animals out of their natural
habitat or intervening in the natural controls of nature on population
density.  We have "damaged" the domestic feline's relationship with
nature - by moving cats into environments to which they are not
native, and where they must depend on us to both keep them alive
AND control their number so that they do not render greater harm or
over-populate to the point of extinction.

No human has the right to betray that trust...and all humans have the
responsibility.

A comment on potential for "legal" action if you take action to
control the movement/reproduction of a cat:

virtually every community in the USA has "nuisance" control laws.  A
free-roaming cat is considered a nuisance the instant anyone complains
about the damage/hassle caused by the cat.  The "owner" of such a cat
is legally liable for any and all costs associated with the nuisance.
If anyone who has a free-roaming cat ever threatens lawsuit, they are
"claiming" the cat and CAN BE PROSECUTED.  Their lawyer would strongly
recommend, therefore, that they do not CLAIM their cat, much less
press for legal action.  This data is from my lawyer when I asked about
this situation.

    I didn't know that about the nuisance laws.  That's very interesting.
    
    I believe that we shouldn't go around just casually sticking our
    hands in other peoples' lives, but I do feel that there's a time
    when all of us have to decide whether or not we feel a responsibility
    beyond our own lives.  I've already made that decision and it 
    changed my life.  I don't feel its wrong if someone decides not
    to expand their responsibility, its a very personal choice that
    that must be made deep in a person's heart and must be true to
    what that person believes and who they are.
    
    You know, if nothing else this file has made me really think about
    alot of issues.  Many are things that I may never have considered
    before.  I'm learning a whole lot more about myself - especially at
    those times when I've said one thing and then realized that living
    it is another story.  I feel much more aware of who I am and what
    I really believe - and the price for NOT being true to that person.
    
    Guess that's part of what this file is all about.
      Nancy DC who's feeling introspective today