Conference misery::feline_v1

    Di,
    
    
    A spay certificate is like a money off voucher - you get your cat
    spayed for a reduced price.
    
    Declawed cats have had their claws surgically removed. Like having
    your finger nails ripped out and the root killed.
    
    
    Lisa plus P&R
    

    To the best of my knowledge, vets in the UK will not declaw cats.
    
    Helen.

    re: .2 - Maybe its because cats are generally indoor/outdoor in the UK
    that the vets won't declaw them.

	Spaying is neutering a female,
	Castration is neutering a male.

	I have not seen any certificates in the UK to have this done on the 
	cheap, I had my stray castrated in November, I can't remember the 
	exact amount it cost, but it was under �20. 
	The whole lot - injections, worming, ear miting, and castration was
	about �40.
	Spaying females costs more, and is a bigger operation.

	In the UK, most people have indoor/outdoor cats, and even the with some
	purebreeds that are kept indoors, it is not our custom to declaw.
	
	The vet I use will not declaw, if you can't keep the cat for any
	reason, you are unlikely to find it a home, so it will have to be
	put down.

	Heather
	

    re: .1
    
    > Like having your fingernails ripped out....
    
    Well, I am not going to get into it with anyone... but I need to
    comment about the wording of your note..... 
    
    Having a cat declawed is NOT like ripping your nails out... the cat is
    totally asleep, and it is surgically done with cutters...  the cat does
    not feel it as it is happening... I watched 3 of mine be spayed and
    declawed... and none of the close to hundreds of cats my family has had
    (since I was a kid), had any adverse reaction to the declawing.... as I
    would if my fingernails were "ripped out".
    
    The picture painted in .1 is very graphic... but not quite accurate!

    Thanks .5 for making your comment. I too have had my cats declawed
    and they didn't rip them out.!!! The cats when they returned home the
    next day walked and ran just like they always did. (obviously they
     weren't having any pain.)
    
    Some peoples opinion of the veternarians must not be too high if they
    think a vet would "rip out their nails.."
    
    To each his own.....
    
    Barbara

    
    One of my cat booklets says that vets will not declaw cats unless
    there is a medical reason for it, dont know whether this is a legal
    thing, or wherther it is a rule of the BVA or RCVS but I don't think
    you can get it done anywhere in this country (U.K.)
                                                                  
    personally I thing declawing a cat is ...
    
    Ha. 
    
    Got you there, you thought I was going to say someting didn't you !

    I think what is important to consider about declawing is that some vets
    are very adept at the procedure and others are not.  Like Barbara's two
    cats, I have other friends who have declawed their kitties with no
    adverse affects.  A vet who is highly skilled in declawing can make a
    big difference in how the individual cats involved will react after
    surgery.
    
    
    --Roberta
     

    As a matter of interest how much would it cost to neuter a cat in
    the States, my vet is going to charge about 15 pounds (about $25?)
    for a male. 
    
    Also in this country there is the Peoples Dispensary
    For Sick Animals (PDSA - is it still going ?) whose purpose is to
    provide cheap/free vetenary care for people who cannot afford regular
    vets bills, I suspect that they would do free/cut price neutering,
    and they have, or used to have, surgeries in most major towns.
    
    
    Martyn.
    

    Martyn,  $25 for a neuter here is very cheap!  When I had Murdock
    neutered and given a rabies shot, the bill came to $88 !!!  I almost
    passed out!  The neuter itself was $25, then I was charged a hospital
    examination (probably very cursory) of $24, anesthesia cost of $23,
    pre-op blood work cost of $8, and $8 for a rabies shot.  Needless to
    say, I have changed vets, and am very happy with the new one.
    
    --Roberta
    

    We acquired 2 of our 3 cats from the local Humane Society.  They
    require you pay $21.00 toward spaying or neutering when you take the
    cat and they reimburse the vet.  Our vet spays or neuters for the
    $21.00 so no extra cost is incurred.  Some vets cost more.
    
    Our vet is adamant about two things:
    
    1.  An outdoor cat here in the mountains will die - we have predatory
        birds, coyotes and cars.  Denise, the vet, says - "Keep your cat
        in.  It will live a long life."
    
    2.  Having established rule 1 - Denise says that declawing a cat will
        make you a happy camper.  She is very adept at this procedure.  I
        think she charged us $40.00 for declawing Amber (our 5 year old)
        and $20 or $25 for Darwin and Curie as they were also neutered
        and spayed.  The declawing was not done at the same time as the
        neutering.
    
         When we had the cats declawed, I was worried as I'd heard old
    horror stories about this.  I made Marsha pick the cats up.  She called
    me at work and reported they had survived.  I envisioned little
    bandaged feet and cats tipping over on their noses.  I finally got
    up the nerve to ask Marsha how they looked - she said "They're
    jumping".  So much for worrying.  Denise operated then kept them still
    and sedated for 24 hours to get a start on the healing process and
    they never seemed to feel pain.
    
         So, this formerly "outdoor"/"don't declaw" advocate seems to have
    changed to an "indoor"/"clawless" fan.
    
    Denise

    Whoa! Hold on people!!!!!
    
    When I wrote .1 I was just about to go into a meeting - I was in a
    hurry and just used the first words that came into my head. Please
    excuse me for being normal :-)
    
    Lisa plus P&R
   

       This "declawing" thing is an issue that there are NO "cut-and-dried"
    answers for. To say that de-clawing is like "ripping your nails out"
    would be akin to saying that spaying is like "ripping your guts out"...
    
      Each individual case deserves to be understood. I have a cat with
    three legs....he got into the engine compartment of an
    automobile...person didn't know...started car. His left-front leg was
    mangled to the point that it could not be saved. If he didn't have the
    remaining leg de-clawed, he would be in trouble...if he decided to try
    to climb something, he'd be "hung-up"..unable to go either forward or
    backward.
    
      I currently have a male stray in the vets to be neutered and have his
    front feet declawed. The alternative to this would be MUCH pain and
    probably some exhorbitant vet bills. I have 4 other indoor cats. This
    fifth male has been terrorizing the neighborhood...not because he's a
    bad cat, but because he's been starving due to neglect and learned to
    fight for the other neighborhood cat's food to survive. If I didn'thave
    him declawed, his dominant nature would most likely result in various
    wounds on my other cats,and the fighting would not be in any of these
    cat's best interests. 
    
      If a person has a house full of expensive furniture, declawing
    can save it from destruction. 
    
      GUess the point I'm trying to make is this:
      You have to judge EACH individual case on it's own...no blanket
    condemnation nor approval is possible with this...
    JMcD

    re:   all declawing notes
    
    I don't want to be a doggie downer here, BUT, I do believe
    that there are a 'few' other notes covering declawing.
    I think the base note was regarding spay certificates or
    something to that effect.
    
    E.T._grumpy_gus !!

    Yes I agree. Its my fault we rat holed - sorry. I mis-used a few
    words and look what happened. Sorry, egg on face time!
    
    How do I manage it!?!?!? Sorry......
    
    
    
    Lisa.
    
    

    Oh Lordy, don't worry - it's just that nails are such a hot subject!
    you manage just like WE ALL do when one of goes off on a silly
    tangent !!  Don't get ya withers in a dither over it !!
    
    I"m just in a very yukky mood this week - up to my whiskers, if ya
    know what I mean!
    
    E.

    Just to make it clear that declawing IS illegal in the UK, unless
    it is for medical purposes. 

    Thanks everyone for your point of view. I was not expecting quite
    so much of a reaction when I placed the note yesterday. It has cleared
    up my questions (and in the case of declawing has confirmed my
    suspisions). In England we definately do not declaw. As I have
    mentioned in a previous note it is considered cruel in this country
    to keep your cat inside. Obviously different countries have different
    cultures and opinions. As an island we have better quaranteen
    regulations than many countries so it is much safer on the streets.
    
    I know my cats would hate it if I was to have this done to them
    as they would have no defence when they go out. 
    
    Thanks again
    
    
    DI

    re: cost of neutering - BOY $25 is cheap cheap cheap!!  My local
    vet charges $45 for a neuter and $65 for a spay, both of which are
    extreemly reasonable.  My other vet used to charge about $75 for
    a neuter and $100 for a spay.  
    
    BTW - WHY WHY WHY do folks use the word Castration for a male neuter!
    I don't think there's a man around who doesn't "duck and cover" at
    the mention of that word.   Considering that we already have so
    much trouble getting folks to neuter male cats and dogs because they
    project their own feelings, it seems logical to me to discourage the
    use of the word "castration" in favor of the less emotional
    "neutering".
    
    Just my $.02
      Nancy DC

    Boy, the vets out east are so expensive!  My vet charges $22.50
    for a neuter and $30 for a spay.
    
    There is a clinic in Palo Alto that does them for even less, I think
    it is about $15 to neuter the cat of a non resident, and $20 to
    spay the cat of a non-resident.  If anyone is interested in more
    info about this, I will look up the number and post it tomorrow.
    
    Neutering and spaying should be cheap, IMHO, in order to encourage
    folks to do it.
    
    Jo

      Re .18
     
       There are more than one discussion on the indoor-outdoor issue in
    this file, and nobody's mind has been changed that I'm aware of with
    all of the arguments. In the U.S. there are many areas where it's
    perfectly safe to have an outdoor-indoor cat, and other areas where
    it's almost a certain death-sentence for a cat to roam around outside.
    If yuo look back a few notes at the "Luke-the-Drifter" note you'll see
    what CAN be the result of having an outdoor cat in an area that isn't
    safe for it. Luke has a dislocated hip and a broken sternum
    (breastbone) that is PROBABLY the result of a confrontation with an
    automobile---and a VERY lucky one from Luke's standpoint. Around my
    area the traffic and un-restrained dogs are reason enough. I see
    literally 3 to 5 or more lifeless little cat bodies on the highway on
    my way to and from work EVERY WEEK!! Yet when I was a kid on the farm
    we had literally dozens of cats and I don't ever remember one being
    killed or maimed. All ofthem that I remember died of old age or some 
    unforseen disease. 
    
    JMcD

    
    
    Jo, up here in San Francisco I paid $ 35.00 to have Bailey neutered.
    Guess that's another reason to move to the 'burbs. ;-)
    
    Marlene
    
    

    
>    BTW - WHY WHY WHY do folks use the word Castration for a male neuter!

	Because there is no such thing as a male neuter (or female neuter)

	Castration is removal of the testicles, 

	Spaying is removal of the ovaries.

	Neuter is neither male nor female.

	If I had my ovaries removed, I would still be female, I would not be
	a neuter.

	I have two male cats, they have been castrated, there is no way that 
	they are neuter.

	Heather

	PS, my male vet uses the term castration.
	

>>>>	Castration is removal of the testicles, 

yes, and some folks (MEN and BOYS in particular) "internalize" this fact
and are extremely reluctant to have the procedure done to a cat/dog that
they know.  This leads to unwanted kittens/puppies.  The animal care
industry, which includes vets and humane organizations, decided to choose
a term that was not so "threatening" to the male humans who often refuse
to hear of "castrating" their dogs and/or cats.	 That is also the reasoning
behind the term "spay" for animal hysterectomies.

We DO tend to assume our animals feel like we do and have the same desires
that we do....when, in fact, there is a great deal of science-based evidence
that animals like cats and dogs have a vastly different attitude and
approach to the whole issue of sex/reproduction.  It is primarily an
instinctive process with no evident lasting emotional impact to either
the male or the female....the female even fails to recognize the offspring
once they are weaned and removed from her presence for more than a week.
this is pretty good evidence that the recognition factor is based on
"odor recognition", not a deep emotional committment to the offspring.

    re: castration - YES! I've been complaining about the use of
    this word for ages.  In my eyes its pretty darned stupid to use
    a term that is likely to discourage folks from doing something
    you really want them to do.  
      Nancy

> The animal care
>industry, which includes vets and humane organizations, decided to choose
>a term that was not so "threatening" to the male humans who often refuse
>to hear of "castrating" their dogs and/or cats.	 That is also the 
>reasoning behind the term "spay" for animal hysterectomies.


	Wrong.

	My vet uses the term castration, as that's what it is - removal of the
	testicles.

	He uses the term spay, as that's what it is - removal of the ovaries.

	I have not heard him use the term hysterectomy, none of the cats I have
	had, have had to have their womb removed.

	To use the term Neuter, means that not only have you lost the 
	reproductive organs, but you have also lost your sex, ie you are no 
	longer male or female.

	Are you saying that men would prefer to be called neuter rather than
	male if they were unfortunate enough to loose their testicles?

	Heather

    Heather, 
    
    Are you noting from the UK?  Here in the states, a spay (ovario-
    hysterectomy) does include removing the uterus.
    
    Jo

    I think that the quote from Dian's note should be qualified to read "The
    animal care industry in the US..."
    
    And by the way, I've seen articles and vet literature that back up what
    Dian said.
    
    Deb

Re:  rather be called "neuter" than castrated.....

actually, most men I know just can't even think about it... 8^}

			D

    STOP RELATING NEUTERING ANIMALS TO NEUTERING HUMANS!
    
    That's what's causing all the trouble.  It is irrelevant what a
    male human would want to be called if he happened to be castrated.
    The point is that we want people to neuter their pets and using
    such a threatening term as castration discourages the goal.  It
    doesn't matter that castration is a more accurate term!
    
    Please - lets keep our goals in mind here.
    
    Nancy DC who-is-feeling-hot-and-frustrated
    

    From ``The American Heritage Dictionary,'' (Office Edition)
    
    CASTRATE;  To remove the testicles or ovaries of.
    
    NEUTER:  2. Lacking sex glands or sex organs.
             2.a A castrated or spayed animal.
    
    SPAYED:  TO remove the ovaries of (a female animal).

>  Re:  rather be called "neuter" than castrated.....
    
    Actually, I think that the corect term is Unix  :-)
    
    Deb

    Anybody ever get their cat a vasectomy?
    
    Dave
    
    P.S. What does "duck and cover" mean?

    I know someone who had the vet give one of her stud cats a vasectomy
    so that she could use him to bring the girls out of season without
    getting them pregnant.  
    
    For the pet owner, there would be no point.  The idea behind neutering
    is more than just preventing pregnancy (in terms of pet ownership),
    it is also to modify certain male behaviors, such as spraying, 
    agressiveness, and mounting females.  A vasectomized cat can still
    do those things.
    
    Jo

    re duck and cover - 
    
    back during the 1950's, when some folks thought nuclear war was
    survivable, there were some training films made that drilled that the
    proper response to a warning of an impending nuclear blast was to "duck
    and cover" (duck under something and cover yourself up). The movie 
    "The Atomic Cafe" is a documentary film made in the mid '80s that showed
    excerpts from a number of training films of the '50s, and makes odd
    entertainment...
    
    re getting a cat vasectomized - seems much easier to just castrate it.
    
    :-) 
    
    I couldn't resist.
    
    Jack
    (who doesn't cringe anymore at the word, I've been threatened enough
    to recognize the empty threats) (They WERE empty threats, weren't
    they, Nancy?) 
    
    Nancy?
    
    Nancy? 
    
                                                              

    
    Re: .35
    
    Jesse says that from where he sits they were not empty threats.
    
    Kirk
    

>    STOP RELATING NEUTERING ANIMALS TO NEUTERING HUMANS!
>    
>    That's what's causing all the trouble.  It is irrelevant what a
>    male human would want to be called if he happened to be castrated.
>    The point is that we want people to neuter their pets and using
>    such a threatening term as castration discourages the goal.  

     This seems to be contradictory, your first line says I shouldn't relate
     the two, and your last sentance does.

     My vet did say he was going to remove the ovaries, he didn't mention 
     anything about the womb, would it be possible with a cut less than 2cm 
     long?
     (It wouldn't have made any difference to my decision if it did).

     And from the Little Oxford Dictionary:

     Castrate:      Remove testicles of
     Hysterectomy:  Sergical removal of the womb
     Spay:	    Sterilize (female animal) by removing ovaries
     Neuter:	    Neither masculine nor feminine 

     Looks like the only term that can be applied to cats and not humans could 
     be spaying, and that would depend whether you class humans as part of the
     animal kingdom.
	
     So, my two male cats were castrated, and so says my male vet, and the 
     Little Oxford Dictionary.

	Heather

     STOP RELATING NEUTERING ANIMALS TO NEUTERING HUMANS!
>    
>    That's what's causing all the trouble.  It is irrelevant what a
>    male human would want to be called if he happened to be castrated.
>    The point is that we want people to neuter their pets and using
>    such a threatening term as castration discourages the goal.  

    
    You know I used to think I was reasonably clear when I wrote.  now I'm 
    not so sure.  below is a prime example of what I was talking about.
    
    >	Are you saying that men would prefer to be called neuter rather than
    >	male if they were unfortunate enough to loose their testicles.
    
    
    The issue is NOT what a human male would like to be called if he were
    castrated.  The major problem is that when the word castration is
    used some people relate it to themselves.  When the word Neuter is
    used most folks think of their pet.  We're not talking about neutering
    humans, we're talking about neutering pets. 
    
    Clear?
    

    I think it is time to drop this topic, n'est pas?
    
    Jo

	Why not just use the work "fixed"?  Nice generic work, even
	if used as slang...

	My two male cats are fixed!  If I got a female cat, I would have
	her fixed!  

    re:  39
    
    
     I  AGREE.

    re: .40  My friends say that their cats were "broken".  The reasoning
    being why do they call it "fixed" when it don't work no more.
    :-))))

re: >Boy, the vets out east are so expensive!  My vet charges $22.50
    >for a neuter and $30 for a spay.

    I don't know about this.  I got my cat castrated for $28.00, and due
    to the logistics about getting him  there,  the  vet  put  him up in
    there kennel for two night (included).   The cat ("Bobby") is 5 yers
    old.  This is in good ol' expensive Masschusetts .... ;^)
    
    However, it took him several days to get over the anesthesia ...    

    Bob