Conference misery::feline_v1

    Phil,
    
    I have two cats who have indoor cats only.  There was a time (several
    years ago) when I allowed them outside with me on leashes.  One
    was happy and other hated the leash and tried to rub it off her
    body!
    
    I believe that my cats are very happy indoors.  They have each other
    for company and plenty of windows to watch the birds at the various
    bird feeders we put out.
    
    Statistics (and common sense) prove that indoor cats live longer.
    They are not exposed to any potentially harmful substances such
    as bug spray or weed killer or other poisons that people use outside.
    They are not subject to being hit by cars, injured by other animals
    and most importantly, hurt by other humans.
    
    As a former human society employee, I spent too many years picking
    up absolutely beautiful animals that died because they were outside.
    It convinced me that indoors was the way to go for my cats.  I just
    love them too much to take a chance.
    
    Nancy 

Not surprisingly, this topic has been discussed many times before.  Please
see notes 8, 257, 1114, and 2120 for a start.  Particularly see 8.106
which is a good list of pros and cons for indoor and outdoor.

Since this is a topic that tends to get very heated, I'd really appreciate
it if folks would read what's been said in the other notes first and then
feel free to carry on a discussion if there are new points to be made.
Just please try to be polite and respectful of other people's positions.

Thanks,
Pam

    
    
    Moderator, if this should be moved to the Indoor/Outdoor note, feel
    free.  I think there just might be one somewhere!
    
    Well, just my 2 cents:     24 indooronly fuzfaces
    
    Advantages                               Disadvantages
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Longer Life                               Early Death
    Fewer Fleas                               Lots of Fleas
    $$$ - Much lower vet bills                $$$$ - high vet bills
                                               due to fights, animal bites
                                               car accidents, etc.
    Less worry - I know where they are        Lost sleep - cat outside and
                                               doesn't come home for n days
    No worms                                  Worms due to eating 'things'
    Less disease                              More disease picked up from
                                               other less healthy cats
                                               outside
    Very Happy Healthy Cats                   Less happy and healthy due to
                                               the stress of being outside
                                               with other animals, being
                                               rained on and snowed on if
                                               left outside, too hot in
                                               summer, etc.
    
    I'm sure there are many more reasons for either - these are mine.
    

    re: 2
    
    Pam, we must have been writing at the same time !!!  Sorry !
    
    E.T.

    
    I have 5 indoor-only cats, and besides all the advantages that Elaine
    mentioned, they also smell lots better!  You can bury your nose right
    into their fur and enjoy :^}
    
    Sandy

    Schnapps and Tequila are indoor-only.  Rici is indoor/outdoor.
    I definitely see advantages to both sides, especially in a country
    setting.  All three seem very contented, although Schnapps does 
    get jealous of Rici sometimes...

    I agree with you, Phil, my cats have always been indoor/ outdoor
    (they have a cat door, and are never shut out).
    
    But is this partly a UK, US thing?  I think indoor-only cats are
    very uncommon in the U.K.  The only ones I have ever come across
    were pedigrees kept for breeding.
    
    And obviously, it depends where you live.  I live on a very quiet
    road (dead end) in a rural area, not in a city.  I also try to keep
    my cats shut in at night (this works up to a point - when they simply
    decide not to come in, there is not a lot you can do about it!).
    
    Incidentally, one of my two cats hardly ever leaves my garden. 
    He is perfectly happy to sit in the sun all day.  In winter, or
    bad weather, they hardly go out at all!
    
    Helen.  

Additional thoughts on indoor/outdoor question:

cats are NOT native to the areas we are living in - unless you live in the
German Black Forest or a narrow band of forest in Scotland.  They are
very competent and determined hunters.  They are a threat to local native
fauna - and have threatened some endangered species, both through direct 
killing of the species and through destruction of the available prey for
the species in question.  Allowing any domestic pet to roam, uncontrolled,
is not just impolite to your neighbors, it is also not a good thing to do
to the environment.  Even in the cities and suburban neighborhoods, there are 
creatures that require protection from our cats -- bats and birds, for 
instance, both of which offer natural insect control.

And, finally, there is the issue of inflicting your pets on your neighbors.
They may not WANT a cat digging in their garden...even if they love animals,
they may love flowers, too.  It is plain courtesy to respect your neighbors'
properties - and absolutely required if you expect them to respect yours.
This is one aspect of the issue that seems to get little attention from
most cat owners and it is one of the most important reasons I keep my cats
under control - inside or outside in a portable habitat so they can enjoy
the fresh air - my neighbors on all sides have mentioned how much they
appreciate the fact that my cats are not a nuisance.

    Three outdoor kitties here. They have the barn for shelter and 10 acres
    to rule. Have never seen one of them off of the property or near the
    road. No fleas, wormed regularly,greet me every morning to escort me to
    the barn for breakfast. All spayed, happy, and healthy. Never had an
    emergency trip to the vet.
    Sandy owned by Nicki, Chessie, and Tinkerbell
    

Cardigan & Milo are indoor-only for any number of reasons.  The most important
reason is my proximity to a _very_ busy major road and the number of dead
cats I find in it.  Both are allowed out in the yard with me when I'm out so
long as they stay in sight.

In my last house I lived far from town.  I allowed my cats to make their own
determination as to where they would spend time -- except the long-haired ones.
When total fur-covered population [dogs, cats & rabbits] was pushing 50 I had
not the time to de-burr long-haired critters. [Except for one persian who 
insisted that he was king of the high plains, so I got out the clippers and
kept him trimmed until he was placed -- hey, it may be blashpemy, but he was
much happier].  No one ever wandered far from the property, most never left
our land.  Rick is of the opinion that this was a function of my 'sucker 
pheramones' -- in other words 'if I were a homeless critter, _I'D_ hang out 
here...'

In general Milo & Cardigan [and Maggie until her final illness] have not 
endured the ticks, fleas, chiggers, worms, etc. that I fought with most of my
outside cats. Milo hasn't shown a whole lot of interest in the outdoors since
that raw November day I brought him home -- he believes in woodstoves, kitchen
appliances, and a roof over his head with a sunny open window in pleasant
weather for that touch of nature.  Cardigan chafes a bit at being kept indoors,
but she doesn't pine and she's far from miserable.

My neighbor's cat, Carson, is a mostly outdoor cat.  He's a sensible boy who
hangs out almost exclusively in _my_ yard [I've never fed him or anything, we
just chat and occasionally he asks me to scratch him] when he's not harrassing
the Labradour retriever next door.

All considered, I'm more concerned with the quality of love and caring that cats
receive than I am with where they spend their time.

  Ann

    Well, I have 8 indoor only kitties now.  One is a scottish fold
    queen who just arrived and for obvious reasons is not going outside
    for a long while, if at all.  She'll be leash trained first.
    
    Of the others, 5 are leash trained (Bumpy, Mao, Isis, Dundee & Flame)
    and we're working on Bonnie.  Bob shows absolutely NO interest in
    being outside.  He's an x-feral.  Clearly the the first 5 and Bonnie
    absolutely L*O*V*E their foray's outside and would love to be
    off the leash.  And clearly I don't take them out nearly enough
    as far as they're concerned.  :-) I sometimes feel bad that they 
    can't run but we live on a busy street and even if we didn't, I 
    made that decision long ago.  I feel that I owe them some stim-
    ulation and change of scenery in exchange for restricting their 
    lives so during the good weather I set aside a portion of every 
    day - probably about 1/2 to 1 hr - when I go outside with them 
    on their leashes so they can play.  
      Frequently, I'll unhook a leash and walk someone through other 
    areas of the yard or down the street a bit.  Or I'll play string
    outside with them.  One can frequently find me running around on
    a Saturday morning in my bathrobe and slippers chasing some bratty
    cat who has run into the neighbor's yard instead of going "in the 
    house" as they have been commanded.  If that ain't love, I don't
    know what is  ;-}
    
      Nancy DC

    I grew up having indoor/outdoor cats.  I got tired of burying
    them as they got hit by cars - on a quiet road, no less!
    I currently have four indoor cats, and yes, they want outside,
    who wouldn't on a lovely spring day?  But we have a dog that
    has attacked and injured cats loose in the neighborhood, and
    neighbors who do not appreciate cats like feliners do.
    I do not live far away from where Snowball the arrow cat got
    it.  Living in the country does tend to make children bored
    and do cruel things for want of something better to do.
    I do, however, have a chicken wire enclosed, including
    top, 2x4 wood framerun, (somewhat like a dogrun) that I put them in while
    I'm out in the backyard.  They are protected, but get to enjoy
    the sun & bug catching.  This is a moveable frame that I can
    put out of sight when not in use.  I have also used leashes, but
    the framerun is safer & easier.
    
    Feline Cautious-
    
    Lynne
    

    I have 16 indoor only cats, and wouldn't have it any other way.
    
    From what I know of feline behavior, I know that if I had an outdoor
    cat, even though I may never see him leaving my property, he would
    probably have a territory that ranged several miles.  Too many things
    can happen within that territory.  It took losing 4 cats to outside
    dangers before I was finally convinced that my cats should be inside.
    It wasn't that hard for me to convince my remaining four cats. 
    The older one took to it right away.  The younger ones were a little
    stubborn at first.  
    
    I think it is important to provide indoor cats with lots of
    environmental stimulation in order to keep them from getting bored.
    I use bird feeders, cat gyms and trees, toys, and anything else
    I can think of.  My three converted housecats need this stimulation
    more than my Birmans.  My Birmans are oblivious to the world outside,
    and are not tempted by it.  Most of them will retreat from an open
    door.  Another consideration for me in bringing the housecats in
    was that I didn't need the added expense and worry of trying to
    keep my Birmans healthy when the indoor/outdoor cats were bringing
    home little nasties to them.  
    
    Jo

    
    
    	While I agree with the other noters cautions about outdoor
    	dangers, I still feel very fortunate that I live in a rural
    	enough area to let Catnippy go in and out. She sleeps right
    	in bed with me every night when the weather is not to her
    	liking and she doesn't fuss to go out when it is snowy or
    	raining. When the nice weather does come, she is out like
    	a shot and is hunting all the "wild things" that are out
    	there. She is happy. I kept her in for about 4 years when
    	I lived in residential areas and she was cranky, hard to live
    	with, fussing all the time about the "other cats" that would
    	cruise past the windows where she could see them and I felt
    	really bad for her. Although I do stay up late during nice
    	weather waiting for her to come home, and then wake up several
    	times in the night to see if she HAS come home (leave the door
    	open a bit for her) and generally live with dark circles under
    	my eyes during her 'hunting season', I would not keep her in
    	unless I really had to. It has made too big a difference in
    	her personality. I guess a residential area would do it but
    	I would not deliberately move into one again (Catnippy being
    	one of the big reasons).
    	Just our two cents worth.
    						kim and Catnippy

       I have four indoor-only cats. Two of them were formerly "outdoor"
    cats. According to EVERY report in every cat/animal/humane society
    publication I have ever seen, outdoor cats are in SERIOUS jeopardy
    almost constantly. According to the many articles in these
    publications, the average "Feral" cat's lifespan is less than 6 months.
    The reasons are many..a primary one being the fact that domestic cats
    are NOT "wild animals", and are not very adaptable to modern
    society--with it's hectic pace and multitudinous automobiles. I see the
    sad result of outside cats about 2 or 3 times a week....on Rte 20, Rte
    290, Rte 495, and Rte 117. On average, I have seen 1000 dead cats per
    year on those roads, or about three per week. After years of seeing
    this, I still get a sick feeling every time I see a broken little body
    on the roadside....I don't think I'll ever get used to it.
     
       When we got "Stormy", she was:
                         (1)Skinny.
                         (2)Covered with cockle=burrs (3 hours of clipping)
                         (3)Had ear mites.
                         (4)Was absolutely filthy.
                         (5)Would probably have died since the temperature
                            went down to -15 the next night...
       When we got "Miss Meow", she was:
                         (1)Covered with fleas.
                         (2)Had an ear infection.
                         (3)Skinny.
                         (4)Was thought to be grey...turned out to be pure
                            white after having the filth removed.
    
       Neither of these cats had any real problem adapting to the "inside"
    life. "Miss Meow" likes very much to go outside in the summer and eat
    some grass now and then. We--believing that the ownership of pets
    requires a certain OBLIGATION to those creatures--believe that she has
    this RIGHT, but we also believe that we have the RESPONSIBILITY to be
    out there with her to make sure she's safe. Once she's had a bit of
    grass, she has no problem coming back in. "Stormy", having been out in
    a terrible storm the night before we found her, has had NO desire to go
    outside since we've had her. She seems to RELISH stretching out on soft
    things and living the life of luxury...always with food and water at
    hand, a clean litter-box, and much petting and love always. 
      Our other two--one with three legs and the other a FeLV+ kitten--have
    never expressed any evidence of a desire to go outside..
    
      Since we have two FeLV+ cats, this is but another reason why we do
    not allow our cats to roam. We do not believe that allowing FeLV+ cats
    to intermingle with neighborhood animals would be wise nor responsible.
    
      Another reason is the fact that we have a fairly large population of
    Owls in New England, and a large Owl has little problem attacdking and
    killing a cat for food. Foxes and Coyotes are also cat predators.
    
    
      I believe that there ARE WAYS to allow cats outside... One way is to
    build an outside "Kitty-Condo" using various sizes of cages and
    attaching them to a "cat-door" accessable to the house. 
      
      We have a great time with our 4 indoor cats and 9 indoor dogs.....and
    not a single one of them has any neurotic problems caused by being
    inside animals... 

        One other point...A recent issue of "Audubon" magazine states that
    over 40,000,000 birds are killed in the United States every year by
    free-roaming domestic cats. According to this report, Great Britain has 
    a similar statistic, porportional to the population of course.
         We FEED wild birds year round, and I've had to chase neighbor's
    cats away from my bird feeders on more than one occasion...but I've
    also found clumps of Chickadee feathers on occasion...and each time it
    makes me madder'n the dickens and a bit sick...
       
        Our cats seem to LIKE to watch the birds, but never exhibit any
    evidence of excitement relative to a predatory instinct...they seem to
    be more curious than anything...

    I think there is a difference between cats that go outside when
    they want to, and stray cats!!  My cats, as previously explained
    are indoor/ outdoor with a cat door.  They are also wormed and flea
    sprayed regularly, properly fed, and healthy.  They are not starving,
    freezing, filthy, etc., and I don't believe that anyone in this
    file with outdoor cats is advocating throwing them outside and ignoring
    them!!!
    
    Incidentally, I'm intrigued by the "indoor" dogs.  My dog only goes
    outside when we take him for a walk, or are around in the garden;
    does this qualify as "indoor"?  I can't imagine a dog that literally
    never goes out!
    
    Helen.

    Helen, I agree with you on all counts.  This discussion has been
    ongoing in Feline and is extremely controversial.  Best not to get
    upset and angry over the viewpoints of the indoor-only folks; I
    just smile now and keep my thoughts to myself.  They would only
    aggravate and add fuel to the debate which Lord knows has gone on
    long enough.
    
    Try not be oversensitive and realize that all of us here in Feline
    care about cats very much and want to do what is best for them.
    If you feel letting your cat go outdoors is the right thing to do
    then that's all that matters.  I have two that go in and out and
    three that stay in.  All are healthy, happy kitties free of parasites
    and diseases.  I would love to be able to let the three that stay
    inside out into an enclosed and protected area someday so they can
    enjoy the fresh air and sunshine.  I know they would enjoy themselves
    immensely.
    
    --Roberta
    

     Re .17
    
      It may be wise to re-visit .15 and look at the TITLE of my reply before
    attacking....I have no desire nor interest in telling or coercing
    ANYONE into what to do. I sincerely hope you remain lucky with your
    animals. 
      I have picked up four of my neighbors' cats and two of their dogs from
    the side of the road over the past five years....maybe that has
    effected my thinking...I'm getting a bit TIRED of digging graves.  
    
    
      I have a 50' X 50' X 7' chain-link fenced in area attached to the
    side of my house where my dogs are allowed to play in safety and
    security for hours every day. The times they are allowed to go out the
    OTHER door they are under full supervision at all times.
    
    
       I'm not in conflict with the MAJORITY of the people who participate
    here...as I believe that most ARE responsible pet owners. I believe
    that cats and dogs should be treated like 2-year-old children who never
    get any older mentally, because that is basically true. If I had kids 2
    years old I wouldn't let them roam the neighborhood unsupervised, so I
    won't with my animals... Not only to protect them, but to prevent them
    from soiling my neighbor's garden (cats) or harrassing people and other
    pets(dogs). If you are in disagreement with me on these points, you are
    certainly entitled to your beliefs. However, violent disagreement will
    NOT change my beliefs.
    
    JMcD

    RE:  .16  I read in "How to Talk to Your Cat", that cats 
    are MISTAKENLY given a bad name for killing birds.  Through 
    autopsies performed on kitties that had passed on, the study concluded 
    that only a very small percentage of kitty stomach contents are bird
    remains.

    Well, we have three indoor kitties but have managed to turn our
    deck into a cat run so they are able to get some fresh air and munch
    on the oates and wheat that we plant for them.  The area is completely
    enclosed (though we did have one incident where Stitch did find
    a way out and ended up on roof top a city block and a half away
    - the opening was discovered and immediately fixed).  I feel totally
    relaxed leaving them up there while I leave the house knowing that
    they are safe.  They will come down the front steps with us in the
    early morning when we get the paper but are never allowed out on
    their own.  I just personally feel better knowing where they are
    - just less for me to worry about I guess - so it's indoors for
    us with a roof-top enclosure which they really enjoy.  If anyone
    has the room a little chicken wire and redwood fencing can work
    wonders and keep your critters real happy.
    
    
    Giudi

RE: .20

This is from several sources - PBS documentaries, DISCOVERY channel programs,
articles in several magazines, my vet, the local Audobon Society, 
the state conservation group most concerned with several species of birds
that nest near my home, and the local ASPCA: 

Cats KILL birds very effectively - they only eat them if very hungry.  The
predatory instinct of our feline friends is so strong, they hunt
EVEN WHEN NOT HUNGRY....unlike most predators natural to the environments
in which we live.  Cats are a very BIG threat to birds, and are considered
the PRIMARY threat to many endangered species of birds around the world.
They are also a threat to other small animals that are the primary prey
for OTHER endangered species.  When domestic cats roam an area, they can
have a negative impact on much more than just birds.

    re: .22 - Thanks - you said that better than I could have.  Cats
    DO kill birds even when the cats are well cared for and well fed.
    Our neighbor's cat, Goliath, is a case in point.  We tried to
    rescue a chicadee from him one day.  Unfortunately, we weren't
    fast enough.
      I don't think he ate the bird.
      Nancy

	I have two outdoor cats who occaisionally - fead time and sleep time - 
	deign to come inside. I've a cat-flap that they use to come in and out.

	They love going out in the rain, and when its really windy - they will
	play for hours with all those leaves and flower petals that dance around
	in the wind, and they try to "catch" the raindrops.

	Other things they bring in for me are elastic bands and plastic
	ciggarette wrappers (Yodas favorite) and garden worms (Ciders 
	favourite).

	They do catch birds - but not many (3 in total last year), they lollup 
	down the garden so slowly and in full view, that the birds have gone 
	ages before they get anywhere near them.

	But, as said before, cats naturally catch birds - I don't understand why
	anyone should why try to stop them enough to shut them away.
	They'll catch the slower birds and the ones that aren't too well, thus 
	ensuring that the fit and healthy ones are the ones that breed.

	At the end of the day, I end up buying birds that have been killed
	for them by feeding them chicken cat-food, and other birds - Woodpigeon
 	is one of their favourites.

	Heather

    I'm quite glad that cats kill and so is my other half.
    
    Being a townie she cant stand the thought of there being mice and
    rats around the house now so are mottley crew are going to come
    in very handy for keeping the rodent population down.
    
    Did you know, that in the U.K.there has never been a recognised
    threat to Cats from foxes? Coyotes probably are another matter but
    we dont have that problem.
    
    I feel that you have to look at you own perspective as to what you
    expect a cat to be. For me it is an animal that kills small prey
    and spends most of its time outside. If I couldnt offer a cat some
    room to expand its territory outside of a flat/house then I wouldnt
    have one.I like seeing them enjoy the freedom the outside can offer
    but I'm used to that. Its what I was brought up to expect and I
    belive it right.Notice please I'm not knocking any owners of indoor
    cats because this is only my way of looking at my cats and the way
    they live. ( I dont like the freezing noses @ 3.00am on a winters
    morning when they come in from the prowl but I 've yet to find cat
    nose-warmers:-)
    
    Phil[]
    
    

    Re: .24
    
    elastic bands can be very dangerous if the cat swallows it, as it
    can cause blockage of the intestines.
    

    
>    elastic bands can be very dangerous if the cat swallows it, as it
>    can cause blockage of the intestines.
 
	Seroiusly, I don't think this is a problem. There's nothing much I can 
	do about the availability of elastic bands in the area,  

	and swallow?.........he pounces, plays, and brings them home as a 
	present, no intention of eating them, he's much more tempted by the 
	food in his bowl!

	Now, if he could catch a pheasant, I would be pleased!

	Heather

    If he could catch a pheasant I bet he wouldn't share!!  :-)
    
    Outdoor cats aren't the only ones who help by keeping down the
    rodent population.  When we first moved into our current house,
    many many years ago when the catcount was 3,  we knew that we
    had mice in the house.  Well, one night I was awakened by a
    comotion in the bathroom and some very high pitched squeeking
    that ceased abruptly.  
      I never saw a sign of a mouse after that!  Of course, now
    the gang has to content itself with hunting crickets in the
    cellar  :-)
      N
    

Yet one more opinion...

depends on the circumstances and the cat.  My (currently 20 year old) kitty, 
Omics, is now strictly an indoor cat.  Sometimes in the spring and summer 
she spends time on the back porch.  Maybe once or trwice a year she will go 
outside with me for maybe 5 minutes.  The decision to be an indoor cat was 
at least partially hers, and happened about 6 years ago.  Because she is 
frail, indoors is the only safe, non-threatening place for her to be.  
In her first 14 years Omics was most definitely an outdoor cat.  In those 
days it was safe for her to be outside.  She slowly changed over herself 
until she was no longer asking to go outside.  When she was about 12 I got a 
litter box.  I dreaded the time when she could no longer go out, but she 
apparently didn't.  She has seemed very happy and content indoors.  I think 
the key is safety and comfort.  

You might also consider the neighbors.  Do they mind if your cat hunts at 
their bird feeder?  or uses their garden as a litterbox?  or uses their 
child's sandbox as a litterbox?  Is your cat innoculated and free from any 
parasites that might be spread to the neighbors cats, etc....  

Anne

    
    
    My "gang", all five of them, are indoor cats.  Two of them are
    converted outdoor cats, and have adapted nicely.  We have an enclosed
    porch which runs the legnth of the house.  They all consider this
    to be "ouside" now.  We have a litterbox on the porch, and on cool
    to hot sunny days, that's where you'll find one or two of them.
    
    They love to stretch out on the wide windowsills and soak up the
    sun.  It also affords them a woderful view of the(small) front yard
    where we feed the birds.  I think that they assume that the birds
    land in the yard just for their amusement.  I have had a few escapes,
    thanks to Isis (who should have been named "houdini"!!), but find
    that they don't wander too far away.  This is a relief to us, as
    we live off of a well traveled road that is really a highway through
    the center of the city.  We too have seen a lot of "road kills",
    and it bothers us that so many people still let their animals loose.
    
    Occasionally we let them out with one of us in the front lawn (which
    is fenced in), but only one or two at a time as they are quick and
    try going under or through the fence.  They enjoy their little jaunts
    on the lawn, but really do prefer to be inside---where the food
    is plentiful and the waterbed is warm!!
    
    Even Isis--who initiates the "breakouts", usually can be found about
    four feet from the door--anxious to get back in, so she can EAT!!!
    "Oh, please mommy, feed me!!! Can't you see I've been gone *forever*
    (about ten minutes), and I've lost ssoooo much wieght!!!(about 1/4
    of an ounce)And I *promise* I'll *never* open that awful door again!!!"
    
    Yea, right!!  ok, ok, I'll feed you--but didn't you just get fed
    about an hour ago!!???
    
    "No, mommy--that was the other four, I didn't eat *anything*, honest!!"
    
    So she gets fed, goes out to the porch and procede to put paw to
    the door and pull--but finds out quickly that the latch has been
    bolted.  Kitties are such born liars, aren't they??
    
    
    Any way, I don't find that they miss going "out" as long as they
    have the porch and open windows to sit in.  They're really funny
    in the winter when they want to go "out".  I open the door and one
    or two rushes out as I quickly close the door against the bitter
    cold(usually around 32 F.).  I go to the kitchen to put on water
    for the tea and go back into the living room to turn on the tv for
    the morning news.  There, in the window, looking in--is a desperate
    kitty face.   "MMMooooommmmmmyyyyy!!!!! PPPPllllleeeeeaaassee, let
    me(us)in!!!  It's *freezzzzzing* out here and we're going to *die*
    if you don't let us in *NOW*!!!"
    
    And people wonder if cats like living indoors!!??
    
    Mine do.
    
    Debbi and the gang

    Cats catching mice - this actually works both ways.  The only time
    we have mice in the house is when someone brings them in.  I think
    Pandora has a secret pocket, because she is quite capable of coming
    through the cat door and walking past us, apparently without a mouse,
    strolling into the living room, sitting down - and suddenly, look,
    a mouse!
    
    I spent a good half hour last night taking the house apart (moving
    furniture, washing machine, etc.) in an attempt to capture a very
    much alive field mouse.  This mouse had survived being brought through
    the cat door and thrown down the stairs by Dora.  You will be pleased
    to hear (or perhaps you won't, if you don't like mice) that the
    mouse was eventually captured and released unharmed.
    
    Helen

    re. -.1    Agree on the mice DUE TO CATS.  Vanessa has lost cat door 
    privileges at night.  No more hearing the cat door flap at 3:00 AM and
    a bit later, high pitched squeaking. 
    	So, this particular formerly-nocturnal animal is now active during
    the day and sleeps at night.  
    	Now if I can just get that little guy who's taken up residence in
    the kitchen cabinet near the door...
    	- Chris

    
    Rusty is an indoor/outdoor cat.  Since the weather is getting warmer I
    let him out during the day and in at night.  We live on a
    semi-busy country road and I fear he could get hit by a car in the
    evenings.  He has also lost his rights to prowl during the evenings
    because the little nut got sprayed by a skunk.  Fortunately, he did 
    not leave a smell in house.  Now that warm weather is coming upon us we
    also have to watch out for foxes and fisher cats (sp?).
    
    Val

    Chewy almost deserves her own note in here.
    
    She seems to be getting worse.  Since the addition of Zula a year ago,
    she stays outside for longer and longer times.  First it was for 8 
    hours at a time, then a day, then two, and now it is about 5.  I see
    her at night but she won't come in.  She just sits there stairing at
    me.  Finally, I just pick her up and drag her in just so that she will
    eat some real food (hate to think about what she's eating.   She's
    getting very skinny and is filthy.  I give her a bath but within a few
    days, she is filthy again.  
    
    I call her several times every night and morning.  Sometimes I get a
    glance of her, other times she isn't in site.  Last night she came
    up to me when I came home.  I started patting her (she is very pleasant
    outside).  I was planning on kidnapping her and bringing her back
    inside.   I was scratching her neck and when I went to scratch
    underneath, I noticed that all of her fur was very scruffy and wet
    under her neck.  I couldn't tell if it was blood or not.  She didn't
    seem to be in pain.   I grabbed her, to bring her inside but she got
    away and wouldn't come out from under a car.  I called her several
    times last night and she was no where to be found.  I pray that she
    wasn't hit or wounded from a fight.  I called her this morning and
    there was no sign of her.  
    
    As soon as the weather gets cold and it starts snowing (can't wait!!!),
    I'm going to attempt to force her to be an indoor cat.   It's too hard
    right now.  Once it is cold, she may not mind staying in as much.
    I figure if I can force her to become an indoor cat during the winter,
    by spring, she may forget what it is like outside.  I think that it's
    my only hope in getting her to adapt to my other two.
    
    I used to believe in having outdoor kitties.  No more.  I'm afraid to
    let Zula out.  No one around has ever seen an Abysinnian and everyone
    oooh's and ahs when they see him.  I'm afraid he'd get swiped by some
    admirer.  He's also not too "street wise" and I'm afraid he'll get
    hit.  He's too precious to me to take a chance.  I do occasionally
    take him outside when I'm with him.  He LOVES it outside.  I think that
    this is going to stop too.   The other day, I was 20 feet away from him
    and he rubbed up against a car.   He was COVERED in silver paint!!!
    What a mess.
    
    Ziggy is now 6 months old and he has no desire to go outside.  I leave 
    the door open if I'm on the deck and he won't even stick his head out.
    What they don't know, they don't miss.  He is also very light blond
    and VERY fluffy.  I couldn't imagine what his fur would look like if
    he was an indoor/outdoor kitty.
    
    I really hope that Chewy is ok.  
    
    Pam

    Pam, is Zula leash or harness trained?  Maybe you can make him a run in
    the backyard so he can enjoy outdoors but have limited space to "roam"
    in.  Kelsey and Murdock have adapted quite nicely to their runs, and
    most of the time chase bugs, eat grass, and find a nice shady spot to
    lie down in and watch the world while I sit nearby and read a book and
    keep an eye out.
    
    Regarding Chewy:  I'm sorry to hear she hasn't adjusted.  I remember
    when Chauncey was alive I could never get him to stay inside, even in
    the coldest of weather.  He became very nasty indoors, and would
    frequently beat up on T.K. and Nikki.  He had been best buddies with
    Nikki until T.K. came along.  I noticed that the addition of T.K. made
    Chauncey very resentful.  We would go for days at a time without seeing
    him, only to be told he was with a neighbor or someone else in the
    complex being catered to and fed.  I wonder if Chewy disappears into
    other people's houses too?  As hard as it may be to think about, do you
    think she might be better off in another home, as an only cat? 
    
    These are just some thoughts to ponder over.  I hope things get better
    for you soon.
    
    ---Roberta
    

    Hi Roberta
    
    There's no doubt in my mind that Chewy would be better off in another
    home with no other cats.  You know thought that it's very hard to place
    an adult cat.  She just turned 3 years old.   I have her on a waiting
    list at Kitty Angels.  Everyone loves her at the complex so maybe some
    people give her treats.  I don't know.  She is awful thin though.
    
    For a few days, since she wasn't comming in, I was feeding her outside
    on the balcony.   Then I realized that she'll never ever come in if
    I do that.  So for the last few weeks, I haven't been feeding her at
    all, hoping that she would finally stop being so stubborn and come in
    to eat.  She knows though, when she comes in to eat, I make her stay
    in for the night.  I like to see her with a warm dry bed.  That
    thinking didn't work.   She'd still stay out for 4 or 5 days at a time
    and is just getting skinnier.  Last night I gave in and fed her
    outside.  Boy is she stubborn.  At least I'll know she's eating.  I
    hope she isn't too stubborn when the cold weather comes.  Right now,
    she stays out rain or shine.  
    
    Last night I saw her.  I had my robe on and my brother was comming in
    so I asked him to check her neck.  I could see from a distance that it
    still looked ruffled and wet.  He couldn't tell if it was blood or not.
    She still doesn't appear to be in pain.  I asked him to pick her up and
    bring her in but she started flipping out and scratched him, so he let
    her go.  I told him that maybe it was from a dead animal.  He said that
    it smelled rotten, like a dead animal.  I then put food on the balcony
    and figured that I could grab her when she came to eat.  Not a chance.
    The door was closed and as soon as she saw me walking towards the door
    she took off.  I want to nab her to give her a bath and check her out.
    
    She seems to have a few feline friends outside.  I see her now and then
    go up to them and they walk off together.  She just doesn't want to be
    inside with my two cats.  
    
    Anyone have any idea what she could have gotten into?   She doesn't
    seem to be trying to clean it.  Maybe it is a chemical, oil, etc???
    Remains of a dead animal (but then I would think that she would lick 
    it off)??
    
    Zula isn't leash or harness trained.  I'm in a no-pets apartment so I
    can't make a run outside for him.  He's so mellow, he probably wouldn't
    mind though.
    
    Pam

    I'll bet she was bitten in that area and the wound abcessed.  Abcesses
    smell horrible!  Try to get her to come inside so you can examine her
    further, even if you have to wear thick gloves to do it.
    
    I can certainly feel for your situation.  It is very frustrating to
    know you are doing the best you can only to have your actions rebuffed. 
    Perhaps you can ask around and see if someone in the complex might like
    to adopt her instead of sending her off to the shelter.
    

is it possible to get a tokyo cage?  You should grab that kitty and get
her inside, caged so she cannot bolt out a door.  She sounds like she
needs medical care, nutrition, and some handling before she turns completely
feral.  You are right in assuming she will not adjust unless you force
the adjustment...and it won't be easy.  However, as you said, placing an
adult FERAL cat is impossible..whether you decide to keep her or not, you
need to tame her before it's too late.  If you keep her caged and indoors,
you will be able to handle her and remind her of the attention she is
missing.....I would be very concerned about the neck wound...it sounds
like a wound to me.  And potentially a very serious one.

		Good luck

    I don't plan on putting Chewy into Kitty Angels.  They are looking for
    a home for her while she stays with us.
    
    If the wound abcessed and burst, does that mean that if I clean it, it
    will heal?  Or does that mean that it is now infected?
    
    Thanks.  Pam

>    If the wound abcessed and burst, does that mean that if I clean it, it
>    will heal?  Or does that mean that it is now infected?
    
If the wound is puncture-like, in which there is a small opening and a
larger area of abcess under the skin, you can have a very nasty infection
set in....one which Chewy, in the condition you describe, would have a
very hard time fighting off.  It is really impossible to tell unless you 
get her inside and cleaned up.

    Well the wound is much more serious than I thought.  Friday night I saw
    her and took a look and saw a hole in her neck (under her jaw) about
    the size of a dime.  You could see the muscle beneath.  She then took
    a fit and escaped before I could get her inside.  I made an appointment
    for her the next day at the vet and spent Friday night trying to
    capture her.  Saturday morning I saw her again and took a closer look.
    It was even worse that what I thought it looked like on Friday night.
    Now Chewy had a 4" piece of skin/fur dangling from her neck.  The whole
    underside of her jaw was missing fur and skin.  It looked too bad to be
    from a  fight.  I had her in my arms and was taking her inside.   As
    soon as we got close to our door, she flipped out and escaped again.
    I then got a box and searched for her in the pouring rain.  Finally
    got her into the box.  It took all my bodyweight to keep her in the
    box.  
    
    Chewy will be ok.   I have a feeling she might have gotten nailed by a
    fan in a car trying to keep warm.  It has been getting cold at night.
    
    I now know that it's too dangerous for cats to be on their own
    outdoors.  There are plenty of woods around us and she still managed
    to get hurt.  She's been indoors/outdoors for 3 years but she did
    finally manage to get seriously hurt.  I'm just glad that it wasn't
    worse.  My other two will always remain indoors only. 
    
    Pam

    Pam, I'm so glad you finally caught Chewy and got her in. The poor 
    thing! And poor you! It's hard to know sometimes what's the right 
    thing to do, especially when your cat has a different opinion. 

    I hope her injuries aren't too bad and she recovers quickly. Good 
    luck in finding a solution that's agreeable to everyone.

    Linda, Misty, Cubby, Tweetie, Toby, and Peanut

    Thank God you caught her.  Please let us know how things are going
    with her.
    

    pam..
    
    here's another one glad you finally caught chewy.  has she gone to the
    vet's yet?  i know it will take a lot to "reclaim" her and get her used
    to her/your home again, but it is worth it.  may you have the strength
    to do what must be done (not weakening and caving-in is tough!)
    
    diane, stella & stanley                    

    Pam - I'm also glad you managed to catch Chewy.  Let me know how
    she is.  I think the cage idea is your best bet.  They're expensive
    but in this case I think it would be worth it.  Perhaps one of the
    breeders in this file has an extra one s/he could loan you.  I only
    have two, one of which is occupied full time by Batman and the other
    I need when they're showing the house, for the kittens.  
      Good luck.
       Nancy DC