Conference misery::feline_v1

    I am assuming that since you have spoken with her breeder about
    the pedigree, and the genetic makeup of her parentage, that your
    cat was bought for breeding purposes.  If she was purchased as a
    pet, the first step would be to call your breeder, and tell her
    that you are considering breeding, and ask her if this cat is of
    a good enough quality to breed.  
    
    I don't know if I can remember all of your questions, but I will
    try.  Whether or not your kittens are registered as Hybrid Himmy's
    or as Persians I believe would depend on the association that you
    wish to align yourself with.  Since I show only in CFA, I will tell
    you what they would consider your kittens.  In CFA, Himalayan is
    a color division of the Persian breed.  Therefore, all your kittens
    would be registered as Persians, regardless of their color.  The
    kittens would be registered under whatever color they turn out being,
    whether they are tortie, tortie point, solids, etc.
    
    Any pointed pattern kittens that you get will have blue eyes, since
    the blue eye color is linked genetically with the pointed pattern.
    
    If you bred your tortie girl to a seal point male, I would think
    that you would be able to get some pointed cats, but as far as what
    colors, that is more difficult for me.  I would guess that you might
    be able to get seal points, flame points, tortie points, since you
    say that your girl is a first generation hybrid (one of her parents
    was a pointed cat, right?).  The pointed pattern is recessive, so
    the kittens would have to get the gene from both parents in order
    to show the pointed pattern.  You would might also get some solids,
    but Cin would have to help you with the color possibilities.  I
    would think that you might even be able to get some torties.  If
    the seal male carries the recessive gene for blue, maybe you would
    also be able to get blue-creams (one of my favorite colors).
    
    The first step is learning about your chosen breed's standards.
    
    
    Jo

    Hi Valerie, welcome to Feline.
    
    Cin Gerry used to breed Himmies.  She is an active participant of
    this file and also an Exotic Shorthair and Persian breeder.  Cin
    is very knowledgable too.  She owned the Cat of the Year in 1985
    I believe, Thesauras' Great Balls of Fire.  I think the association
    was CFF.
    
    The breeder you purchased Maxine from should be a wealth of information
    for you in regards to breeding her if she was sold as a breeder
    quality cat.  She sounds lovely.
    
    Good luck to you.
    
    --Roberta
    

    Thanks for the quick reply.  Yes I bought her as a breeder.  Seeing I'm
    new to all this stuff, Could you explain the different cat divisions to
    me.  It is my understanding that being a first generation hybred himmy
    she can not be shown because hybreds are not reconized by the CFA is
    this correct?  What about her future generations.  Pointed kittens yes
    what about solids?  If what you say is true and they are classified as
    true Persians then they would be showable?
    
    Bear with me I'm new to all this -- could you explain to me the
    difference between tortie and tortie point. 
    
    Valerie

    In CFA, himalayan is a color pattern of a Persian cat.  Since the
    cat is a Persian, just like a Persian, then it isn't considered
    a hybrid.  Judging from the titles that your cat's parents have,
    I would say that the breeder you bought her from was breeding and
    showing in another assocation, maybe TICA (who else gives titles
    of double CH guys??).  In CFA, your kittens, regardless of color,
    would be registered under the Persian breed.  Your kittens will
    be registerable, and showable (providing they are good type) in
    CFA under the breed name of Persian, even if they have the Himalayan
    pattern.
    
    A tortie is a cat that is black and orange all over it's body. 
    A tortie point is a cat that has the black and orange only on it's
    face, ears, legs, and tail.  The tortie pattern would be on the
    same places that the color would be on any other color pointed cat.
    
    Jo

    thanks Reberta for the info I look forward to talking with Cin.  That
    name Great Balls of Fire sounds so familiar to me I'm going to check my
    pedigree when I get home.  I think my little girl has T-Renn on her
    father's side. Wouldn't it be nice if she was related to a fellow
    noter.
    
    Yes, the breeder (Alto Cattery, Deerfeild NH) where I bought her was
    very informative.  But never owning a cat before there is only so much
    information you can absorb, I'ts amazing how much is involved in
    breeding cats.
    
    This is all very exciting to me.  As you probably can tell Im just
    thrilled with my little girl.
    
    Between you and me, both my husband and my 7 year old are very jealous...
    The competition is stiff.......
    
    
    Valerie

    Jo,
    It is my understanding that Tortie is strickly a female color does that
    also apply to the tortie point.
    
    You mentioned about the titles given cats.  I'm not sure what division
    the cats were shown in either, or what the criteria is for each division. 
    I assume from your reply that there are more then one and the standards
    differ for each?
    
    Maybe you could help me understanding her pedigree papers. There are a
    lot of titles on it that I am not able to understand what they stand for.
    I'll look them up tonight and write in tomorrow I sure would appreciate
    the help.
    
    Valerie 
                                  

    Tortie point is still only a female color.  The genetics of tortie
    points are the same as for torties, but the pointed pattern restricts
    the color to just the points.
    
    There are many cat associations.  I choose to show and register
    my kittens in CFA, the Cat Fanciers Association, only.  There is
    also TICA, The International Cat Association, CFF - Cat Fanciers
    Federation, ACFA - American Cat Fanciers Association, UCF - United
    Cat Federation (not sure on that one).  Probably others that I am
    forgeting.
    
    CFA is that largest of the associations.  CFA only awards two titles
    in it's shows, champion, and grand champion.  There are other awards
    that you can achieve, but they do not give double championships,
    or triple grand championships, or supreme grand championships, etc.
    
    Jo

    Alto Cattery belongs to Lois Chase who owns a cat out of Great Balls of
    Fire, my Cat of the Year.
    
    I had a funny feeling when I read the original note that this cat might
    be related to me...or Fire!  ;-)
    
    cin
    

    Cin, isn't Alto Alice Chase out in Deerfield , near me, next town to
    Candia?  I met her in Salem last weekend, and saw her cats and pics
    of her himmys and her boy out of Fire. hmm. i thought this all 
    sounded familiar.  My Lily is a double on Fire if I remember
    correctly.  Such a small world!
    
    E.T.

    Valerie, getting my first 2 purebred cats was also very exciting,
    much to my husband's dismay!  You're right, the competition is very
    stiff!!
    
    I had a feeling Cin was going to get right on the phone to you!
    
    :^).
    
    Lots of stuff to learn but you sound determined to learn it all.
    My neighbor has a bluepoint pet quality Himmie and he is gorgeous.
    
    
    --Roberta
    

    Yes, It's Alice Chase....I always get her first name mixed up, probably
    because I deal with a Lois Chase for work here at DEC.  
    
    From talking to Valerie, I'm sure her cat is very nice.  Sounds like a
    beautiful pedigree....of course, with Fire as her Grandfather, how
    could it not be!!!!!  
    
    There are lots of "Fire" kids out there!
    
    cin...who always enjoys finding another one!
    

    Hey!!  We're related too!   I have Fire's son, Flame.
      Nancy DC

    Hi all,
    
    well after making a phone call to Alice Chase yeaterday afternoon and
    looking over Maxine's pedigree, this is the scoop.  Maxine is not
    related to Fire, I'm sorry to say.
    
    Her Grandfather was Ky-Ro's Top Billing of T Renn.
    
    The reason why Fire sounded so familiar was that Alice has a beautiful
    male from him that she showed me on the day I saw Maxi and the name
    Great Balls of Fire is not easily forgotten.   I got his pedigree mixed
    up with Maxine's.
    
    But now after all this you have all convinced me that I need to have
    one from Fire's line.   Perhaps in a year when Maxine is ready to be bred
    I might be able to find a stud male out of Fire.  Anything out there
    Cin??
    
    Alice has a very nice flame point male that she will allow me to breed
    Maxine to.
    
    As I had explained to you on the phone yesterday, I really wanted to
    breed her to see if I could get sealpoints.  You suggested breed to a
    Flamepoint.  If I breed her directly to a Sealpoint would that increase
    my odds of getting seals in return?  And what about the sexes of the
    kittens?  Alice mentioned only sealpoint males and solid females.  How
    can I increase my chances of getting pointed females?
    
    I must tell you I am really enjoying talking with you all, thanks for
    the feedback.
    
    Thanks Cin for explaining to me about the titles on Maxine's pedigree.
    
    Its clear now that the term Dbl. Ch, is referring to being champion in
    two different divisions.  The other titles that I was confused was
    CFF Ch. -- which I now understand it to be referring to the Cff
    division  and Dbl Grc-- I assume is grand champion in 2 different
    divisions as well right?
    
    I just received the confirmation of Maxine's CFA registration
    yesterday, How do I go about registrating for CFF, is it unnecessary to
    have both if I don't plan to show her?
    
    Talk to you soon.
    
    Valerie
    
    

    I am wondering if by divisions you mean associations.  A cat can
    be a champion in two different associations.  
    
    TICA, another association, does give titles like Grand, Double Grand,
    Triple Grand, Quadruple Grand, and then Supreme Grand Champion,
    so your title of Double Grand may indicate the cat's title was earned
    in TICA, or it may refer to the cat having granded in two associations.
    The best way to know for sure is to ask Alice.
       
    Some breeders will make different pedigrees for different registering
    associations.  That way, if the pedigree is a CFA pedigree, all
    titles listed on it will have been earned in CFA.  Other breeders
    will give the association's initials first, like CFF-CH before each
    title.  Can be confusing when someone show's in alot of associations.
    
    Jo
    

     
    My wife and I are going to a womans house tonight to look at a flame
    point Himmie.  The woman said these are very rare... she also said
    she does not know how the flame point kitten was possible since she
    though a flame point male had to be bred with a flame female, this
    was not the case.  Is a flame point a harder to find type?  Also, what
    are some of the things I should look for to make sure I'm buying from
    a reputable breeder?
    
    Tks,
    Tim
    

    Tim,
    
    
    
    I don't breed himmies, but do breed Exotic Shorthairs, so I don't
    know if flame points are rare.  
    
    That can be a difficult question to answer.  Breeders have different
    opinions of what is reputable.
    
    My opinion is that the home/cattery should be CLEAN, the animals
    healthy, and not afraid to be handled by those visiting.
    
    I also think that if a breeder stands behind their animals health
    wise, that that's a very important thing.  Breeders offer various
    types of health guarantees and return policies.  The kitten/cat
    should have had at least 2 of it's three kitten shots, or the
    cat should be up-to-date on it's shots before your take ownership
    of the cat, or arrangements for you to vet the animal.
    Your breeder should have the pedigrees for both the male and female
    parents to your kitten, with the litter registration - if you are
    purchasing an animal that will be altered, your breeder may not
    release the papers on your kitten until you provide proof of spaying
    or neutering.  Then send the litter slip and pedigree on to you.
    Your breeder should encourage you to call with ANY questions you
    might have after you take your kitten home, and the breeder should
    be prepared to answer your questions or find the answer for you.
    Not just sell you a kitten and then disappear out of your life.
    
    I guess that the bottom line is that you should feel comfortable
    with all aspects of the visit and the terms of the agreement.
    If you don't, you should discuss your feelings with the breeder
    to see if you can reslove them.  If you have any more questions,
    either post them here or send mail.
    
    Good Luck
    
    Elaine
    
    I think that a responsible breeder should be participating to some
    degree in showing their line at shows.  This ensures that the breeder
    is breeding to the current standards published by the various
    assiciations.  Folks will either agree or disagree with this opinion.
    If breeders are using the same breeding pair all the time, and not
    renewing their breeding stock, they may run the risk of maintaining
    the same health problems in the line (if there are any), not improving
    the type in their line, and not breeding to the current standards.
    
    If you have questions about flame points, you could give Bobbie Beyer
    a call - she breeds siamese including flame points.  603.882.8814 in
    Hudson New Hampshire.  I'm sure she'd be happy to answer some of your
    questions regarding the genetics of the flame point - and there are
    breeders here in Feline, if they get a chance to read and answer you
    before your appointment tonight.

    Re .15:
    
    When you mentioned that the breeder told you that she doesn't know how
    she got a flame point kitten in her litter, then all the alarms went
    off for me.  A breeder who is worth his/her salt will have a working
    knowledge of genetics and of color inheritance, particularly in their
    own breed.  
    
    If you are just looking for a nice pet quality kitten, then base your
    judgements on your feelings when you meet the breeder and see the 
    conditions of the house.  Try to be objective and make a rational
    decision, even if the kitten is cuter than can be. :^)
    
    Jo

    
    
         Amen to E.T. and Jo's notes
    
         I was sort of shocked about the flame point business.
    
         Barbara

    Flame point himalayans are not rare, however, you are more likely
    to fine a Flame Point male than a female because of the
    color/sex-linked genes.
    
    As a former breeder of himalayans, flame points in particular, I
    can tell you there are many ways to get Flame Point males, but in
    order to get a Flame Point female, you must have a Flame Point male
    bred to one of the following:  Cream Point, Flame Point, Tortie
    Point, or Blue Cream point, or any Hybrid of the same color.  
    
    I am currently breeding Exotic Shorthairs, but if you'ld like further
    information as well as a few established, reputable breeders, just
    drop me mail to ICS::GERRY. 
    
    As Jo said, I'ld be cautious of any breeder who doesn't know why
    they got a particular color.
    
    cin
    

    
      Thanks for all your replies.  The breeder seems very concerned about
      the kittens- she has a vet certificate, and specifically requested
      pictures in the future, and other signs of being very concerned.
    
      However, she did seem confused about the genetics, and said she would
      look into it further...  When she referred to the kitten as being
      rare, perhaps she meant becuase it was a female, which is not as 
      common as a male flame poing. 
    
      I'll let you know how it turns out.
      
      -Tim
    

    
    I stopped in Friday afternoon and saw the kittens.  I was not very
    impressed with the breeder.  The mother of the kittens was in dire 
    need of brushing and perhaps a bath.  I also commented that the mother
    seemed very small for a himilayan.  The woman said that she was very
    dissapointed in the mother after she reached maturity, becuase she
    was so small.  Yet she still uses this cat for breeding time after
    time.  She also does not show her cats.  I did feel bad becuase it's
    obvious she breeds the cat as a second income, her apartment was
    sparsley furnished, and she had two young kids.  But I decided I
    will look elsewhere for a himmie or persian.
    
    -Tim