Conference misery::feline_v1

    Well, Roberta - I'm very lazy when it comes to scoring at CFA shows.
    and, as Cin will tell you, at CFF shows also !!
    
    I rely on,  "Dial_A_Grand"  - greatest thing since sliced bread.
    
    All you do is wait until the Thursday after a show, and call CFA's
    Dial-A-Grand phone number - they will voice prompt you to enter
    your cat's registration number, and you will receive back your
    cat's current point count - Grand points.
    
    The phone number is:   201.531.8644
    
    Now, for CFF, that's another story - I'll let Cindy have that one
    (in detail - maybe I'll remember it someday).  I just learned that
    you get points for breed wins.  I guess one important thing to 
    remember is to make sure to take the Absentees and transfers for
    EACH day and to be sure to get the Shorthair Championship and
    Longhair Championship counts and the Allbreed Championship count
    for EACH day.  Now, if you have lots of patience, you can 'once
    in a while' call Barbara Haley and if you don't do it too often,
    she will give you your grand points.  Oh yeah, you need 150 points
    and a 5th best cat to Grand, and then another 100 points and a
    Best Cat to Master Grand (under 3 (?) different judges). Oh, you
    need 4 winners ribbons to Champion.
    
    Go Cin !!
    
    E.T.

    I gues it depends on what you mean by scoring....
    
    There is scoring points for Grand Championship (also Master Grand in
    CFF) and there is scoring points for National Wins.  
    
    The breed points in CFF count towards National Wins only, E.T., Not
    Grand or Master Grand.  Of course, so do your 1-10 place wins.
    
    I'm going to assume that you want to know how to keep track of your
    grand points.
    
    In CFA you need 200 points.  You get those points by defeating other
    champions either within your breed, or by finaling.
    
    Within the breed, the judge will hand a Best Champion (orange) ribbon
    on the best Champion of the Breed.  You get a point for each Champion
    that you defeated, not counting yourself.  
    
    In a final, you should keep track of the title of each cat that is in
    the top 10.  
    
    For Best Champion, you get the championship count - 1 point...if it's
    an AB ring, you get the AB count, if it's a speciality ring you get the
    speciality count.  If your 2nd Best Champion, you get 90% of the Best
    Champions points, 3rd gets 80%, 4th gets 70% etc.
    
    
    In an AB ring, there is also a Best LH and Best SH Champion....besides
    Best and 2nd AB....in these cases, you may be 2nd Best SH CH, but still
    3rd Best AB....you would get whichever is worth more points.
    
    But,like E.T. says, call Dial-A-Grand....I do like to try to figure my
    points myself during the course of a day.  How else do you know when
    you've granded!!!
    
    
    
    Now, in CFF, it's a little different...
    
    If your competing for Grand Points, then Best Ch gets all the points,
    and 2nd Best Ch gets 1 point less....3rd Best CH gets 75% of the points
    of the 2nd place cat, 4th Best Ch gets 50% of the 2nd Place Cat, and
    5th Best Ch gets 25%...any lower than 5th Best Champion gets nothing!
    
    
    For Master Grand, its only the first and 2nd Best Master Grand that get
    points, and then it's all the points for 1st, and 1 point less for 2nd.
    
    
    In CFF, you must also have a Top 5 win to Grand, and a Best Cat to
    Master Grand.
    
    cin
    

    Elaine, I have heard of Dial-A-Grand, but didn't realize it was
    for CFA.  Good stuff!!  I'm lazy too, and would rather just sit
    there and collect rosettes, than worry about scoring points.  My
    worry was, what if Murdock became a grand on day 1 of a two day
    show and I didn't know it.  Then on day 2 he would compete as a
    grand instead of a champion.  In CFF, everyone keeps track of their
    points in case of an event like this.  But since I was only showing
    Kirby in kitten class, and didn't care about titles, I never bothered
    with understanding how to score.
    
    Thanks for the info!!
    

    Roberta,
    
    In CFA, you cannot transfer from Champion to Grand overnight.  If you
    go into the show on Saturday as a Champion, if doesn't matter if you
    score enough of your points to become a Grand, you still compete as a
    Champion.
    
    Both days of a CFA show are considered ONE show....
    
    In CFF, each show is considered a separate show, so that's why you can
    transfer classes between Saturday and Sunday.  That's also why you take
    your rosettes from Saturday down on Sunday morning, but you can leave
    them on your cage at a CFA show.
    
    cin
    

    Just a couple of clarifications on CFA points.  Since Murdock will
    be in premiership, then he won't be awarded a Best Champion ribbon.
    In premiership in CFA, they do not award a Best or Second Best of
    Breed, or a Best Champion.  The only way to get grand points in
    premiership is by finaling.
    
    In CFA, if the ring is allbreed, they will select a best and second
    best LH premier, and then a best and second best SH premier.  Two
    of these cats will then become Best and Second Best AB premier.
    There is no third or fourth best allbreed premier, since that would
    cause the judge to have to rank the other two cats, something which
    they do not do in CFA for premiers and champions.  
    
    The important thing is that when the announcer says that he will
    be giving the "count", get your pens ready.  Take down the count,
    that will tell you how many cats are competing in each catagory.
    They will say how many are entered in *premiership*, and then how
    many premiers.  You need to know how many premiers there are.  If
    you make Best AB premier in an allbreed ring, you get take the count
    for AB premiers, and minus one for yourself, and that is how many
    points you got for that ring.  
    
    Let's say that the count is 11 LH Premiers, 9 SH Premiers, for a
    total of 20 AB.  If you were Best Allbreed Premier, you would get
    19 points.  If you were second best AB premier, you would get 90%
    of what the best premier got, or 17 points.  If you were in an allbreed
    ring, and got Best LH Premier, but weren't best or second best Allbreed
    premier, then you would get 11-1=10 points.  Are you with me?? 
    If you were in an allbreed ring, and got 2nd best LH premier (which
    is were most Birmans are placed, ;^D), you would get 90% of 10,
    or 9 points.
    
    To grand in premiership your cat needs only 75 points.  That is
    less than granding in championship because there are less cats
    competing in premiership.  You can still call Herman (AKA Dial-A-Grand)
    and get your points from him.  Cin is right, you compete in the
    whole show under the same title that you started with.  Also, you
    have to claim your Premier title with CFA before the opening day
    of his next show.  To do this, simply fill out the form that is
    located in the catalog, and mail it with a check right after the
    show.  Premiers must get their winners ribbons first before competing
    for their grand points.
    
    Also, Cin, the Best Champion ribbon is purple now.
    
    Jo
                             
    

    Jo,
    
    You can be 3rd Best AB Premier, just like you could be 3rd Best AB
    Champion....if, for example
    
    Best Cat in Premiership is the Best AB Champion/Best LH CHampion
    2nd Best Cat in Premiership is 2nd Best AB CH/Best SH Ch
    3rd Best Cat in Premiership is 2nd Best SH CH or LH CH....wouldn't this
    still be 3rd Best AB???
    
    That's the way it works in CHampionship....
    
    The only way to score beyond best and second is to also make the top
    10.
    
    Or doesn't 3rd AB count in premiership???
    
    

    Cin,
    
    you can only be 3rd best AB premier *if* you also make the top ten
    final!  Very often in CFA out here, the premiers are awarded their
    premiership wins, and do not get in the top ten final.  If you are
    in the top ten final, then the judge doesn't have to make a separate
    determination about who was third and who was fourth best premier.
    I should have been more clear, but from showing Westie, the one
    thing that I did learn is that it is even harder to get in the top
    ten with a premier than with a champion in a championship final.
    
    So, you are right, if you are 2nd Best LH Premier and also 10th
    Best AB cat, you get to count 80% of the points that the Best allbreed
    premier got.
    
    Jo

    I'm not even going to try to understand all this!  Way too confusing.
    Guess I'll rely on Herman.
    
    One thing that makes no sense, Jo, is that you said it is more
    difficult to make a final in premiership.  I would think with the
    smaller class, making finals would be a lot easier than in kitten
    class.  The kitten classes in the shows I have been at have been
    so huge, that I was surprised my cats even finaled at all.  I told
    Cin off-line that I am really looking forward to the day when when
    of my cats makes an *allbreed* final.  So far, all of their wins
    have been in specialty rings.
    
    I understand how to tally points, but not this stuff about 3rd and
    4th AB premiers.  Are you talking about finals wins, or just wins
    against other premiers, but not the entire alter class?
    
    I'm almost sorry I started this topic!
    
    :^)
    

    Well, there are lots of reasons that I think that it is harder to
    final in top ten in premiership class than it is in championship.
    The biggest reason is that the premiership classes are smaller,
    and that the competition is very tough.  You are up against a class
    which is mostly grands, whereas in the championship class, the class
    is very large, and made up of lots of champions, and opens, in addition
    to grands.  Out here, in premiership class, the top ten finals are
    usually 10 grand premiers.  The premiers have to rely on the Best
    and 2nd Best PR wins to get their points.  
    
    The reason premiership is harder than kitten class in terms of
    finaling, in premier class, your cats title is right there for the
    judge to see.  Don't think that there aren't some judges who decide
    who will be in the finals based on their titles.  In kitten class,
    all kittens are equal, since no titles are given to kittens.
    
    That first AB final is very thrilling, and so is every one after
    it.
    
    Jo

    Jo,
    
    Is there ever a final that isn't thrilling???
    
    After almost 10 years, I still get clammy palms sitting in the final
    ring!!!
    
    cin
    

    Cin,  I bite my nails too!!
    
    Jo

What is the youngest age that a cat may be shown.  Our cornish rex (named rex)
is about 4 months.  We would be interested in showing him eventually but
Im wondering what age CFA allows them to be shown at.

Ira 

    re: .12 and age limits...
    
    Kitten class runs from 4 mos to 8 mos, and from 8 mos on, the cat
    can be shown either altered or unaltered (two different classes
    for the adults)...this is for pedigreed cats (not sure if the
    various associations treat household kittens the same as cats
    or what).
    
    Did Rex's breeder sell him as a show-quality cat?
    
    	Pennie

    Another important thing to remember, you cannot show altered kittens
    in CFA (we are talking purebred classes, not household pets).  So,
    if you plan to show as a kitten, then enter premiership later on,
    don't neuter or spay until the cat is 8 mos old.
    
    Jo

    re: 10 & 11
    
    I clutch the chair and look away until the ribbon is hung.  Then
    Cin tells me who got what.  Then, anything can happen.....
    
    Roberta, I am assuming that Herman is the CFA DIAL-A-GRAND voice??
    
    It makes the shows a little less stressful for me - I sorta wander
    around in a sleepy daze for two days and get yelled at by Cin cause
    I forget to bring my catalog to the ring !!!  sigh  After last
    year, I am socred_out, if ya know what I mean.  I do try to at least
    bring the catalog to the ring now - I'm gettin' better!
    
    E.

    E.T.
    
    I remember the first few rings Lil took Best of Breed, it was only a
    little too obvious that you didn't expect it!!!  Gotta keep them judges
    thinking that you win all the time....
    
    tee hee...
        

    I'm with Cin, a good poker face is a must.  Some judges aren't
    confident in themselves.  And if they think that they did something
    that wasn't expected, or wasn't happening in other rings, they get
    worried that they didn't do the right thing.
    
    
    Overheard comments from the front row:
    
    "well *thats* a switch"
    
    "I guess everyone is getting a chance at best of breed in this show"
    
    "this judge walks to the beat of a different drummer"
    
    
    Always remember, the front row is only about 12 - 24 inches from
    the judges ears!! :^)
    
    Jo
    

Rex is breeder quality...which I think is inclusive of show quality.  He is
from a line of grand champions according to his breeding tree.   He is four
months old now so he probally could be shown in that class.   Another question,
do you have to have a cattery name to show?

Ira

    Breeder quality doesn't necessarily mean that he is show quality
    too.  The best way to know what to expect is to call your breeder,
    tell him or her that you are thinking of showing him, and see what
    the breeder thinks he will do.  
    
    I usually don't sell cats for breeding that can't make it in a show
    hall, but many breeders will sell cats for breeding purposes only.
    It is fairly common.
    
    You do not have to have a cattery name to show.  In the case of
    your kitten, his breeder's cattery name will be the first part of
    his name, then next comes his name, then, if there is room, you
    can add your cattery name to the end.  If you want to add a cattery
    name to the end, you must first register it with CFA, and pay the
    fee.  Also, even if you register your cattery name, your cat's name,
    including spaces, cannot be longer than 35 characters.  So, if your
    cats name is long, your chosen cattery name might not fit.
    
    You can show unregistered kittens, but any points that they might
    make will not be scored for regional or national wins.  You may
    not show unregistered cats in championship or premiership.
    
    Jo

    re: 16
    
    Cin, I don't expect ANY time she takes it!  It's more of a thrill
    each and every time, but, yup, I do now try to use 'the face.'
    
    HA HA yourself!  I know you still laugh at me...
    
    

    Boy, are you right about that Jo.  We did that to a judge in
    Warwick - he really turned things around - methinks he was
    new - really made him feel like he blew it!  AND HE DID!
    Cin and I sit in the two seats right in front of the table
    when our cats are up.  When the Birmans move out, we
    (the Exotics) move right in !!
    
    What's cute, sort of, is when all the Exotic numbers go down,
    and the wins are hung, and we are taking our cats back, is
    the muttering overheard on the way back to the bench, which
    gets much louder as we get closer to our cages !!! 

    Cin and Elaine, you'll have to show me "the face."  I'll probably
    need to use it too!!  Murdock's last two kitten shows are Boston
    and Salem, then we go for titles!  He's got competition in Boston;
    a seal male Birman kitten, 5 months old.  There are no best of breed
    wins in kitten class, right?  What will the judges award?  Best
    of color class only??
    
    If he finals in CFA, I'll probably faint!!!
    

    hmm.. now I am curious( not  to mention confused).. but what is 
    "The Face"..   and do "Aunties" get to use it?.. once we know
    what it is.. 
    Kate

    Roberta, I'm not sure, but if there are more than two or three
    kittens in his class, there may or can be a breed award in CFA.
    Jo will know for sure - I've never shown a kitten CFA.
    
    Boy, that first final Lil made, Cin had to scrape me off the floor.
    I was so stunned that I almost missed it - usually, I am late to
    finals cause I don't think she is going to make them, so I don't
    always listen for the number, and Cin has to find me and yell
    at me to get my cat up there before I miss it !!  Again I say,
    I'm gettin' bettar !!  Now I say, " Whatsamatta with that dam&*
    judge, what didn't he put my cat up?"  Is he blind.....
    
    It'S fun !!    See you in Salem.
    
    E.

    Well Kate, Aunties can use it if they are sitting in the front row
    in front of the table.  I remember Cin's face when Stripees Granded!
     
    The 'face' is:
    
    Sitting on the chair in front of the table very still looking
    straight ahead and not really at anything, with a very calm
    'BLANK' look on your face not expecting anything, and after
    the win is hung, still not showing 'ANY' expression on your
    face.  That's why I usually have to look away (to the side
    when the judges stand there for 20 minutes with the ribbons
    in their hands walking back and forth in front of the cages
    trying so hard to decide with Exotic to hang what on.  It's
    enough to give a person worms !  Sometimes they put down the
    whole handfull of ribbons and start again - they wash their
    hands, open a door, either just feel around or sometimes 
    they will take two or three of them out again for another
    look.  Then they will act like they really love one of them
    and that get gets nothing hung.  Weird !  There really is
    no way to second guess them.  I find them not to be very
    consistent as a general rule.  Maybe the cat that a judge
    like last week, feels different then next week.  Probably 
    true.

    Ok,a BLANK look.. no problem..:*).. just do not tell Pookie
    that I was not constantly shopping for more  "pressies"
    for her.. I tell her that is why I am going to the shows..
    and we know that Happy expects that these trips will net
    her more treats.. and I think Preshhie(yes Cin and E.T.
    this is Daddys fault.. he says her name is bigger than she is..
    so he has been calling her "daddy's little Preshie":*), he calls
    Happy..Daddys little(?????) Happycat..with "happycatsmile.. and
    he calls Pookie.. his Pooker-roo, much to her dismay, I might add..
    oh yeah, I disgressed. well it will go well when I do my BLANK LOOK....
    As I was saying.. I think Preshie falls in the middle.. of the toys
    and treats catagory..she is leaning towards the "treats" though..
    Like I said Cin.. She is definitely Happys baby.. a chip of the old
    block.. of course if Pookie ever heard me  say that... she would
    probably call her atty and try to have Happy  proven an "unfit mummy..
    .. ok.. see you in the front row..Save me a seat.. BTW.. Shoudl I wear
    my sunglasses?.. heh-heh
    Kate

    RE: .25
    
    ET-
    
    never mind describing 'the look' how about a lil' (no pun intended)
    update on Lil..... :^)

    Elaine, 
    
    As you have seen, judges practice the "look" too.  That is why they
    can mush over a cat, then dump him in the class, it is a ploy to
    through us all off the track. :^)
    
    Roberta, since Murdock is a seal and will be competing with another
    seal male, they will be in direct competition for the blue and red
    ribbons, 1st and 2nd place.  Then, whoever gets 1st, will go against
    the 1st place winner out of the seal female kittens for the best
    of color class award.  If there are no seal females, the 1st place
    winner will be best of color class, and the 2nd place boy will be
    second best of the color class.  If there are no blues, then that
    would be the equivalent of awarding a best of breed.  If there are
    blue kittens, then the only way to know which kitten the judge liked
    best between the best of seal color class and the best of blue color
    class will be if he finals one of them.
    
    There are two shows a year in CFA in which best of breed is awarded
    to kittens, the qualifying show and the invitational.  
    
    Jo

    Ok, sorry to be late - but, there won't be any babies - seems that
    she aborted the little devils - she is FINE and took care of things
    like a real champ!  She's had one heat and we will probably breed
    her again on her next heat.  Sometimes first litters don't work
    out as planned.  Lil's a real pip - she had both the vet and me
    fooled!  She never even batted a long eyelash over the whole 
    business - she was too busy playing.  Guess we will have to 
    wait for babies for a couple more months.  That's ok with me
    cause I love to show her and see her on the table!  I'm looking
    forward to Salem and Milford and Warwick.  Fun times ahead -
    hope to some of you all at some of these local shows.
    
    E.