Conference misery::feline_v1

    Elaine,
    
    I think it would be interesting to try to discuss some of these things
    without it happening because someone enters a note that alot of people
    disagree with.  For example, I think it would be interesting to have a
    discussion on "responsible breeding practices" rather than trying to
    all get our views in on a single person who happens to write a note. 
    That way when someone enters a note offering stud service or selling
    kittens or whatever, we could simply refer them to the discussion on
    responsible breeding and let them decide if what their doing is
    correct.  It may also help to eliminate the feeling that someone is
    getting beaten up on.
    
    I actually planned on attempting such a note, but I figured that I'ld
    let things cool down a little this week, and maybe enter something like
    that next week.
    
    I mean everyone's got an opinion, and mine isn't necessarily right, but
    it always seems as if the discussion around most of these issues never
    really happens because one side or the other takes offense.
    
    cin
    

    Well, I know I'd love to see a note on breeding.  I want to learn
    more about it.  I think that the idea of moving the discussions
    to "neutral" territory is an Excellent one.  I agree 100% that it
    would help prevent "jumping on" someone who innocently enters a
    base note.  
      Besides, it'll help us hone our debating skills   ;-}
    

    In Canine, they do that by refering the noter to the keyword
    "breeding".  It seems to work okay, but sometimes things still get
    hot.
    
    Jo

The key point to me is not whether issues are hot, but whether people
carry on their discussions with respect and interest or whether
discussions degenerate into personal attacks.  The connection is that
"hot" issues seem to eventually generate "hot" behavior.

There are ways of phrasing things that are inflammatory, even if nothing
overtly "illegal" has been written.  By illegal, I mean contrary to the
stated rules of the conference or to DEC's Policies and Procedures
manual.  There are also ways of phrasing things that get one's point
across without being insulting or provocative.  It's a very fine line
here, and I suspect it's a really subjective line as well.  

I wish I could provide some wonderful example here to show the difference. 
I've been thinking for awhile that someone should write a style guide for 
notes discourse that covers issues like ad hominem attacks and how to avoid 
them (ie how to attack concepts without attacking people).  If anyone
knows of such a document, please let me know.

There are certain topics that are guaranteed to raise sparks and there are
certain styles of noting that will also serve to light a fuse.  I think
we've seen in the past that most FELINE noters don't really enjoy notes
that are very controversial and raise alot of heat without much light.
As a private individual I know that I don't enjoy that sort of thing.  As
co-moderator of this file I feel it is my duty to put a stop to such things
and I will continue to do so.  

Pam

    re: .4 I think I may be able to point to a few Techniques that
    would help to keep notes from sounding too aggressive.
    
    1. Talk about a behavior, not the person.
      e.g. "People who keep their cats indoors are Hypocrites"
                  vs.
        "To claim to love your cat and then keep it locked up seems
        hypocritical to me."
        or.
       "That behavior strikes me as hypocritical"

          In the first case you are making a statement about the entire
    individual (and their worth)...rather than making a comment 
    about some particular behavior.  Attacks directed at the individual
    will elicit defensive behavior much more quickly.
    
    2. Take responsibility for your statements, thoughts and feelings-
    "I think ", "It seems to me", "I see that as" etc  
     or "I get angry when you do that"  vs "You make me angry"
     In the latter case you are blaming your feelings on someone else
    rather than stating how you react to a behavior or situation.
    
    3. Pay close attention to the use of value-laden words.
       There are words in our society that have positive, negative and
       neutral values.  Two words that have virtually the same meaning
       but different values can give a totally different "color" to
       a statement.  For example, inexperienced or uneducated vs stupid,
       Contradictory vs Hypocritical.  And the same word can have 
       different values depending on how its applied.  For example,
       If a man is 'ambitious' its generally positive, but if a woman
       is called 'ambitious' it tends to be negative (in our society).
       I'm having a tough time coming up with specific examples.  Just
       think about the words you're using and try to stick with neutral
       or positive words as appropriate.
    
       Well, those are some of the techniques I try to use when I write.
    I don't always succeed in conveying what I want to convey, but I
    think this helps.
      If you are not sure of "value-laden" words give me some examples
    and I'll do my best to define their "value".
      Thanks
       Nancy DC
    
    

    re: .1 - I agree with cin, I'd like to see some
    notes on responsible breeding practices. I entered
    into this notesfile days ago, added a note looking
    for a male cat to breed with my female and felt
    like I was under fire...needless to say, I backed
    out....I would have preferred to have been able to
    go into a file on breeding and read about the pros
    and cons...I definitely am not an expert. I'd
    like to hear the good and bad points before I change
    my mind about breeding my cat...I realize that there
    are kittens galore at all of the humane societys...
    in fact, I plan to visit one this weekend and maybe
    get a cat or kitten there.  I'd be interested in 
    hearing why breeders made the decision to be breeders, 
    some of the problems that they have faced, hassles etc.
    Also, how many different kinds of breeds of cats are
    there?
    
    Thanks for listening!
    K

    Hi there,
    
    I am sorry that you felt like you were under fire after putting
    your note in.  Actually, your note came just after we in feline
    had discussed how to give out information with out offending the
    asker.  I thought that most of the replies to your note were very
    good, meaning, they tried to give information without passing judgement
    on you.  I hope that my note did not offend you.  I was trying to
    give you information about stud fees, etc. so that you could decide
    for yourself what would be best.
    
    There is a note already called "breeders sign in here", that has
    a bit of information in it.  I would be very willing to participate
    in a breeding topic, but in the past I have found that the majority
    of the noters are pet cat owners, and have little interest in breeding
    topics.
    
    Jo

    I apologize for using the words under fire...I
    realize that it was too harsh of a phrase to use...
    I guess I just didn't expect to get this type of
    answer being new to the feline notesfile...I've
    been trying to go back through and read as much as
    I can, but there are so many notes...and I do have
    to work too. 
    
    I would like to read the section that you
    mention...Breeders sign in here...can you
    direct me to it?
    
    Thanks!  K

    I did a show keywords and came up with two for breeding.  One is
    BREEDERS and the other is BREEDING_ISSUES.  When I called up the
    directory for these two, the topic I mentioned "breeders sign in
    here" did not show up.  But, there were a couple of others that
    did show up.  One of them was note 49 which has a very lively
    discussion in it about why breeders sell pet quality kittens with
    neuter/spay contracts.
    
    If you want to start a new breeding topic and ask specific questions,
    I would be willing to share my opinions and feelings.  But, this
    might be opening a can of worms.  There is a lot of disagreement
    about what constitutes "responsible" breeding practices.
    
    Breeding cats is a very important part of my life, I don't know
    what life would be like for me if I didn't do it.  Therein lies
    the problem, I tend to get very emotional about it.  I have tried
    to keep myself in line, please let me know if I get out of line.
    
    I breed Birman cats, live in California, and show extensively. 
    I am up for the discussion if you are.
    
    Jo

You're right about the keywords Jo.  I had originally put the keyword
BREEDERS on notes where someone mentioned the name of a breeder 
thinking it would help the community locate breeders of a particular
type of cat.  I just recently put in the keyword for BREEDING_ISSUES 
as a result of the recent discussions.

In this case, DIR/TITLE=BREED was much more useful.  I've culled the results
down to the following list, all of which are fairly germane to the
discussions at hand.

Pam

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  Meower Power
Created:  9-FEB-1986 06:45         2714 topics        Updated: 27-JUL-1989 16:58
                  -< See note 1.14 before posting adoptions >-
 Topic  Author               Date         Repl  Title
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   345  DONJON::SCHREINER    10-OCT-1986    45  Cat Breeders, please sign in here!
   352  USHS01::MCALLISTER   13-OCT-1986    71  Ask the breeders...
  1147   ATEAM::DOIRON       29-FEB-1988    16  ??BREEDING??
  1173   AIMHI::TOMOLONIS    11-MAR-1988     4  BREEDING
  1361  TPVAX3::ROBBINS      12-MAY-1988    16  Question for Breeders?
  1655   TWEED::R_SICILIANO  12-AUG-1988     7  Question on "Breeding"
  1936  CGVAX2::RECORD_ADMIN  3-NOV-1988     8  Breeder Listing Wanted
  2293    SWAT::COCHRANE     13-MAR-1989     5  Questions on Breed Standards

    Pam,
    
    Thanks so much.  This new keyword is just what we needed.
    
    Jo

    Looks like I have a lot of reading to do. I am a
    cat lover but, not a knowledgeable one....I will
    do my homework though, (as time permits) to learn
    as much as I can about felines, spaying, 
    overpopulation...etc.  I honestly didn't realize
    the extent of the overpopulation problem...I do
    plan to take a trip to the Framingham Humane
    Society sometime soon (have to get my husband
    geared and ready for it...since I know I won't
    walk out of there empty handed!!!)
    
    Thanks for the info!!!!!!!!!
    Karen

    Good for you Karen!  I look forward to more kitty 
    stories.
      Nancy DC