Conference misery::feline_v1

    Excellent points, Nancy!  Our love for our pets can sometimes
    blind our better human judgement.  
    
   Mary-Michael 

    
    Nancy,
    
    	I had some of the same thoughts, you said them well.  I think
    (and know in a lot of cases) that people are trying to educate.  When
    an issue is close to your heart, it is sometimes difficult to keep the
    emotions from coming through.
    
    	If it is kept in mind when reading response and notes that to many
    people particular issues are extremely sensitive, many of the so-called
    contriversial response take on a different light.
    
    	Someone new to the file would not know of the sensitivities of
    other noters.  Just leading of a response that may seem overly heavy
    with a statement that to that responder this was a very sensitive issue
    may go a long way in how a person perceives a response.
    
    	Just my thoughts.  I try to bear in mind always that the noters in
    this file love animals (not just cats).  Anything that may be harmful
    or hurtful to an animal is very likely to stir emotions....anyone who
    loves animals will react the same way.
    
    Faith
    

    
    And of course, all noters trying to educate or inform or persuade
    others, must allow the others to maintain and discuss their own
    opinions, which may not ever agree with the majority opinion here.
    That's what Digital's P&P and Valuing Differences policies are all
    about. 
    
    Tamzen

    Nancy:
    Excellent topic!  I know that several times I have felt like
    deleting MEOWER POWER from my files after a nasty go-around.  But
    I feel that what I have learned from these notes is too important
    to dismiss it so quickly.
               
    Thanks for putting into words what I feel!  
               
    Anne
    
   

    Nancy, you certainly do have a way with words!  I like your style
    of writing a lot.  Ditto everyone else:  very well said!!
    
    I have learned so much from this notesfile and would hate to see
    it deleted because we have abused our privilege.  Many times I have
    been the perpetrator of such replies and flames and will now make
    it a point to think before I type.
    
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts,
    
    /Roberta
    

    WHEW!!!  I wasn't quite sure how that note was going to be received.
    Guess I can uncover my head now :-)
    
    I'm sure we've all spoken before we've thought.  I know I have.
    Just ask my mother :-)
    
    re: .4  Thanks for putting that in.  Its one point I forgot
    to make.
    
    I remember when Deb put in that note about valueing differences
    and the definition of Harrassment.  I wanted to dispute it so
    much because the issue was so important, but I couldn't.  Deb
    was absolutely right :-) and I had to shut up and let the woman 
    in the note alone to carry on her life as she saw fit.  
    
    You know, the feeling that gets in our way when we discuss
    sensitive issues like pet overpopulation, is the same passion
    and caring that makes the people in this notesfile so special.
    I wouldn't have it any other way.
    
      Nancy

    Yet another agreement, and, as Roberta said, you do have a very
    good way with words, Nancy. A very balanced approach.
    
    I have often been moved to tears by this notesfile, over tragic
    stories of cats' suffering. And sometimes tears of joy over wonderful
    resolutions to suffering. Unfortunately, sometimes I have been moved
    to tears of sadness and frustration when people hurt one another
    even when they are trying to do some good. Ohh, the terrible days
    of early indoor-vs-outdoor discussions, when the two sides were
    sometimes accusing one another of not loving their cats and being
    unfit to have cats. Those discussions were sometimes so ugly that
    they put anything of the last two years in the shade. Many times
    I was tempted to stop reading FELINE, and sometimes I did stop for
    a while. But, as someone else said, there is such a wealth of
    information here. And there is also so much goodwill and affection,
    for each other as well as for all living creatures. I have learnt
    a lot about accepting other people's opinions, even when I can't
    agree with them; things I used to reject out of hand I can now see
    some virtue in, even when they are not the "right" thing for my
    cats. 
    
    Enough stream of consciousness! Nancy, you done good! I like your
    metaphors a lot. The best form of education is to make the educatee
    want to emulate you because they admire you, not because they are
    browbeaten. Make them want to get to know you first. You Feliners
    are great, I only wish I could meet some of you - I feel very far
    away.
    
    Shayne (NZ)

    I would also like to add that in most controversial issues inherently
    there is no one answer that is known to be right, it is up to the 
    individual to come to his opinions no matter what the persecutors say. 
    
    The important thing is to keep an open mind see what others have to 
    say and then develop your beliefs, keeping in mind that you or others
    could be wrong later on and therefore to constantly steer your belief
    system in the right direction.

    Nancy,
    
    You certainly do have a way with words and you spell it exactly
    the way that it is.  Since I am a dog breeder and have been attempting
    to get into the cat fancy I too have had difficulty understanding
    where some of these comments are coming from.  Someone new to these
    notes files are not aware of everything that may or may not be of
    a sensitive nature.  We are all human beings here and we wouldn't
    be in this notes file if we didn't love animals.
    
    If someone has a breeding practice that seems offensive to some
    of you did you ever consider inviting them over and discussing some
    of these things face to face after getting to know them alittle
    bit first.  Most people will do what they want to no matter what
    someone says to them but if they could see the benefits to  good
    breeding programs and the harm in poor practices maybe then they
    would make the decision to change their practices.  No matter what
    you do or say a "bad" breeder will remain a bad breeder if they
    fully well know what they are doing and they are doing it for the
    wrong reasons.  This notes files is an excellent source of valuable
    information regarding proper breeding practices but please remember
    that education should be one of the primary goals.  A properly educated
    new breeder can contribute so much to the fancy but if we turn them
    off from listening to us we will not have accomplished anything
    we are striving to do here.
    
    Again, Nancy you said it so well and I hope that some of you can
    find it in your hearts to contact people who have come out with
    controversial issues and invite them to cat shows, your cattery
    and feline gatherings to get to know them and help them see the
    other side of the coin for themselves.
    
    Nancy

    Well said, Nancy Jenkins!  I personally feel that it is a breeder's
    choice as to whether or not they want to show their cats and they
    shouldn't be tarred and feathered if they choose not to do so. 
    On the other hand, good breeding practices are a must!  I would
    never buy an animal sight-unseen unless it was on the recommendation
    of a person I know well and trust.  The last thing I want to do
    is contribute to someone's inept breeding program or worse, someone
    who treats the animals poorly and houses them in deplorable conditions.
    Unfortunately, many of these types of breeders do exist, and it is
    those types I would like to see disposed of even if they do show
    extensively and are out to improve the breed!  The breeders who choose
    not to show and are breeding for the love of the cats and placing
    them in good, loving homes with appropriate spay/neuter contracts
    are doing nothing wrong in my book.  Not every person who breeds
    has the bucks or the desire to show.
    
    While we're on the subject, nothing ticks me off more than going
    to a show and seeing a cat that hates to be shown.  Many times I
    have approached a breeder who dismisses the cat's behavior with
    a comment such as "oh, he's always like that; he hates going to
    shows."  I have seen cats hide behind curtains and literally freak
    out, vomit in the cage and be forced to lie in it all day, and even
    ones that try to escape from the show hall.  Granted these are usually
    the exception to the rule, but for God sakes, if the cat doesn't
    like to be shown, then don't show it!
    
    Off of my soapbox.  Again, Nancy, I liked your thoughts a lot.
    
    --Roberta
    

    Roberta,
    
    Re -1, we're slightly off track but I can't resist reinforcing your
    comment about showing reluctant cats (and I'm quite positive none
    of the feliners, who all LOVE their cats, would be guilty of this).
    I show Kimi and SUra a modest amount (between 3 and 6 shows a year);
    they find it boring, but are quite confident about it, sitting up
    in their cages and talking to the spectattors. Usually they go to
    sleep after judging. The boys are both Premiers, so have been
    reasonably successful. There is one Burmese around who is a
    contemporary of Sura (a few months younger). He hides under his
    rug every time he is shown, and obviously hates it. His owner seems
    quite competitive; she gets quite upset when her cat doesn't win.
    When he and SUra compete,  sometimes he wins and sometimes Sura
    wins, so they are about equal in quality. BUT she has taken that
    cat all around the top half of the North Island to shows. He is
    a Grand Premier while Sura is "only" a premier (our methods of gaining
    the titles are different from yours, there are no points invloved),
    but I feel Sura enjoys his weekends more!
    
    Had to get that off my chest! And your're right, Roberta, people
    can love a breed and give their cats a wonderful upbringing, finding
    great homes for them, without being into showing and titles.
    
    Shayne (and two show cats!), New Zealand

    re: .12 - I know from experience that showing a cat that hates
    to be shown is NO FUN.  Its only fun when the cat either likes
    it or at least doesn't mind.
      Nancy DC

    Thanks, Shayne.  Your boys sound wonderful and I think it's great
    that if a cat likes to be shown, then go for it!  I'm really looking
    forward to showing Kelsey and Kirby in September but plan on being
    sensitive to their reaction to showing.  While we are expecting
    a certain degree of initial stress, if it amounts to anything
    significant, they will be taken home pronto.
    
    As mentioned before, the breeding practices and overall treatment
    of the animals is first and foremost in my book.  IMHO, showing
    is a luxury, not a necessity.
    
    Congrats on Kimi and Sura's premiership!
    
    
    --Roberta
    

    Part of the reason why some cats don't like showing is because they
    are terrified, and have never been exposed to that kind of atmosphere
    before.
    
    I think that early socialization of kittens is the most important
    thing you can do.  Show cats have to know what to expect from a
    show.  Not any cat can be a show cat.  I practice with my kittens
    at home before ever taking them to a show.
    
    I think that a mistake that some people make with their show cats
    is treating them like pets when they are home.  I am not saying
    that treating a cat like a pet is bad, all my show cats are pets
    first.  What I mean is that alot of people feel that if they pick
    up a cat, and the cat wants down, then they put it down.  Show cats
    can't act that way.  At a show, the judge isn't going to put the
    cat down if it wants down.  Not unless it is about to take his arm
    off anyway :^).  At home, the cat should learn to be handled the
    way a judge would handle them.  Once that is learned, then I think
    that the cat is much more comfortable at the show, since he knows
    what to expect, and knows that he will live through it.  
    
    There are certain cats whose temperament is just not suited to showing,
    no matter what their early socialization was like.  These cats
    shouldn't be shown.  But, most cats, given proper exposure to the
    kinds of things they will be expected to do at shows, will not mind
    showing a bit.
    
    Also, I think that there is a difference between a cat that truly
    hates showing, and one that is momentarily affected by something
    negative at the show.  A lot of things can affect the cat at any
    given stage of the show.  If you are showing a male, he may get
    a wiff of a female in heat, and not want to do anything but go and
    find her.  On the other hand, you may be showing a female who happens
    to be in season.  She is not going to want to stretch out, or do
    anything except squat on the table and tread.  My point is, that
    if the cat is acting up for the duration of the entire show, then
    yes, something is amiss.  But, as spectators, we don't always see
    the whole picture with a cat that is acting up.  We may only see
    it act up in one ring, and not see that it was a perfect angel in
    all other rings.
    
    I realize I will probably be flamed for these statements, but such
    is life.
    
    Jo

    Jo, I have no flames with what you wrote at all.  The cats I saw
    at the shows were truely terrified and each of their owners had
    told me that they always act that way at a show.  One incident in
    particular really affected me:  I was helping a friend show her
    new kitten and the woman next to us (a breeder) had just put her
    cat (a whole male) in the cage and I could tell he was very upset.
    I asked her what was wrong with him and she nonchalontly(sp?) replied
    that he hated to be shown and always acts that way.  Then she walked
    away to do something and I went over to her cat and started talking
    to him.  All of a sudden he started vomiting violently; this wasn't
    a hairball kind of vomit, it was actual food being expelled everywhere
    in his cage (sorry to those with a weak stomach).  He was shaking
    his head and gagging and I felt so bad for him.  His cage was covered
    and he was trying his darndest to bury it.  I ran to find his owner
    but couldn't locate her.  When she finally returned, her reaction
    to this poor cat was hardly of concern.  He was now hiding behind
    his cage curtains, obviously upset.  She took a towel from her duffel
    bag and proceeding to cover the vomit with it -- didn't even try to
    clean it up!  The poor cat was forced to lie in his own vomit all
    day!  Why didn't I report her to the show manager?  What good would
    it have done?  She had many friends there (including the woman I
    was helping show) and was well respected in the cat fancy.  But I'll
    tell you, I had to bite my tongue but good for my friend's sake!
    
    Also, I think the hardest part of showing house pets, purebred or
    not, is keeping them in a cage all day.  My cats are not confined
    at home, to a room or a cage; they have the run of the house at
    all times.  I think that is what would upset my cats the most; not
    the handling but the confinement aspect.
    
    Again, most of the cats I see at shows seem naturals at it, are
    well behaved, and sometimes very comical, almost to a point of showing
    off!  And most of the owners who have cats that don't like to be
    shown simply don't show them.  My flames are with the people, like
    the woman above, who have no regard for their cat's feelings,
    only their desire to win and/or advertise their cattery name.
                         
    --Roberta
    

    re:16
    
    Gee Roberta, there are folks like that I guess, but I wonder
    what the percentage of jerks vs. responsible folk that show
    and care greatly for their animals and try to make them as
    comfortable as possible.  People will be people - it's too
    bad that the public has to see the bad examples of exhibitors
    within the fancy.  
    
    I agree with Jo - there are many reasons why a cat is uncomfortable
    at one show - then, when taken out again, is fine.  That has happened
    to many of my show kids.  It sometimes does take a few consecutive
    shows before you fully realize that it's really not working.  I'm
    wondering if you will show your babies after Framingham if they
    exhibit a little negative behavior.  I always tell folks not to
    judge by just one show.  Every cat seems to react differently to
    each show hall - each hall has different smells - different exhibitors
    different cats present.  Some shows go very smoothly - some, you'd
    wished you'd have left your cat home and gone to a dog show as an
    exhibitor!!  The next time you take the cat out, it prances around
    on the table like a queen/king !!  Cats are like people in that
    their mood for the day depends on how they are feeling.  If we
    leave the house at 4:30 am, that sometimes upsets them, etc, etc.
    etc.
    
    The bottom line is that the person that you saw neglect their cat
    is in the minority, in my opinion.  I, too, see things that I don't
    like at shows - like not feeding a cat all day or giving it water
    cause it's ruff will get wet - but, there are reasons why - I'm
    not saying that they are good reasons - but they exist.  Is it
    harmful to the animal - in the long run, I'd say no.  People raise
    their children differently - people also raise their animals as
    they see fit.  Some good - some bad.  Thank God the majority of
    folks in the fancy really love cats, and take pretty good care of
    them.
    
    E.T.

    Roberta, 
    
    My cats aren't caged at home either, and they don't seem to be too
    upset with the benching cages or judging cages.  They sleep almost
    the whole day, when they aren't in the ring.  When they get up and
    want to come out of the cage, I let them out.  I always get a grooming
    space, so will let them lie on it between rings if they want.  Laci
    is notorious for not wanting to be in her benching cage.  She spends
    most of the show lounging in my lap or on the grooming space.
    
    Try to get your cats used to it by letting them spend short amounts
    of time in the carrier.  That way it won't be so scarey to them.
    And like Elaine said, don't judge their reactions on only one show.
    This will be a totally new experience for them, it may take them
    a couple of times to fall into the routine.  Also, it will probably
    be easier for Kirby than for Kelsey.  Younger kittens seem to think
    it is all one big party.
    
    Thank goodness that the jerks in the cat fancy are a minority and
    not the majority.  I have never witnessed an situation like you
    describe, but I am sure that people like that do exist.
    
    Jo

    Jo and Elaine, your thoughts and ideas are definitely valid.  I
    am of the sort that worries a lot and tends to go overboard.  I
    equate stress with sickness, meaning if Kelsey or Kirby stress out
    at the show, they are automatically going to come down with a virus
    or something.  I know it sounds crazy but the thought of it happening
    scares me.  The night before Shelby died I had given him a bath
    so Linda could see him all nice and pretty.  And I started to blame
    myself for bathing him when he died the next day.  Of course it
    was mere coincidence... but Shelby  hated baths and got really stessed
    out from them... had the shakes and everything.  When I bathed Kirby
    last night he was really good in the sink... didn't fight me.  But
    after the bath he was shaking like a leaf in the towel... and even
    more when I tried to blow dry him so I just towel dried as best
    I could and left him in the bedroom to dry naturally where it was
    warmer.  When he was almost dry and I let him come downstairs he
    started to sneeze and make little choking noises and I immediately
    freaked out thinking he was going to get sick from the stress of
    being bathed.  He started playing after that and he is now perfectly
    fine.  I know I'm rambling... but a bath is a preparation for
    a show... and if it stresses him and the show stresses him, then
    I am going to need medical attention myself that day!  Reading your
    notes really helps though.  And that lady's cat I saw really was
    an exception to the rule.  I was sorry I had to witness it and even
    sorrier that I didn't speak up and say something to her.
    
    However, I AM looking forward to the Framingham show alot.  And
    Kelsey and Kirby have a string of admirers attending, including
    a friend with a video camera who insists on taping them that day.
    It is going to be a fun time for all and I plan to thoroughly enjoy
    it!  And if there's another show in Marlboro this November, I'd
    like to enter them there too.
    
    --Roberta (who's beginning to chill out!)
    
    
    

    Roberta,
    
    Blow drying is good for them since it warms them up faster and they
    won't catch a chill.  Do you blow dry your own hair?  If so, start
    bringing Kirby in the bathroom with you when you do, and talk to
    him encouragingly as you dry your hair, so that he can get used
    to the sound.  Once he is used to the sound, then you can pet him
    and point the dryer on him for a few seconds.  If he freaks out,
    then you can just go back to talking to him while you use it on
    yourself and try again in a few days.  Get him used to it gradually.
    
    Blow drying has another benefit.  When you dry them with the dryer,
    comb the hair gently in the opposite direction of the growth.  This
    will make the coat dry nice and full and give them a really handsome
    look.  Be sure to comb the ruff upwards towards the chin, and comb
    the tail hairs gently towards the body.  Be careful with the tail
    hairs, they take forever to grow back, and you don't want to pull
    them out.
    
    Well, all, I am off to Medina, Ohio!  Can't wait to meet fellow
    noters and Birman fanciers Linda Sobek and Nancy Jenkins.  See you
    all on Tuesday of next week.
    
    Jo

    re: cages - If anything Dundee wants to STAY in the cage by the
    end of the day.  I bring the fake-fur bed with us and by the end
    of the day, for finals I carry cat & catbed to the ring.  I figure
    he's earned it  :-)
      N
    

    re:19
    
    Roberta, you have every right to worry about them getting sick
    from exposure to other cats.  I have 'seen things' at shows that
    I'm not exactly crazy about either.  Maybe not as severe as what
    you mentioned earlier, but 'things' I'd rather forget.
    
    The funny thing is that with each and every cat I've shown, they
    automatically become the healthiest cat in the house.  I think
    the repeated exposure builds immunity!  I really do.  It's kind
    of like when I used to work in the lab in a hospital, the first
    6 months of a new job, I'd feel really crummy and then start
    feeling great each new day.  
    
    I still spazzz out before each show, so don't feel silly or
    anything!  You WILL have fun and we will have fun watching
    get excited over your first ribbons!!!!!
    
    E.T.

    Black Thunder was definitely not happy at the Concord Show (her first).
    
    She kept hiding behind the curtains, and trying not to come out of the
    cage.  She wouldn't eat or drink anything all day.  I felt so bad for
    her.  When it came time for the show rings, she was petrified and
    didn't look like her beautiful, happy, inquisitive self.  By the third
    ring, she paniced.  She tried to bite the judge and almost got away
    from me.  I decided than that showing was not for her.
    
    If I had started Thunder when she was a little kitten, she probably
    would have enjoyed it, but putting her in for surgery and not knowing
    what was wrong with her made for no early shows.  I don't regret not
    showing her but I know if I ever have a kitten again, I will definitely
    try to show her/him early to acclimate them to it.
    
    The showing was more for my enjoyment and the possibility of having
    ribbons to show off.  Not for Thunder.  After the third ring, I pulled
    Thunder out of the show.  She had been through enough in her short life
    and didn't want to put her through the trauma.
    
    I give Nancy and Elaine and Robert and all the other exhibitors credit
    for showing their kittys.  It is a lot of work.
    
    Sandi  (mom To Lightning, DejaVu and Thunder)
    
    

    re .23
    
    Oops....
    
    Meant to say credit goes to Nancy, Elaine, RobertA ......