Conference misery::feline_v1

    The vet can tell you for sure by palpating her.  She really should
    have a checkup if you think she is pregnant (and it sounds like
    she very well may be).  You can even have a spay/abortion done if
    she is pregnant and do the declawing later if you don't have the
    money.  It doesn't all have to be done at once.  It isn't healthy
    for a cat to be in heat so much.
    
    Your vet can definitely tell you if she is pregnant, though.
    
    Good luck!
    

    I don't remember exactly what the charge is here for spaying a cat,
    but it's no where near $200 at the local spay and neuter clinic,
    I know.  Also, perhaps you could work out a pay-in-installments
    plan with your vet. 
    

    I am not sure exactly but I think it is under $100 - probably around
    $80 for a spay. But you could get a certificate from the Friends
    of Animals and that will reduce your cost. $ 200 is way too much.
    

    I think a spay around our neck of the woods is under $50.00 and
    believe me, it's cheaper than raising kittens properly!
    
    Karen, Tristan and Tenzing.

  RE: .0
    
   >    . .....Frankie and Baby are fixed
   > and declawed but Binky has yet to be.  At the moment I don't have
   > the extra 200.00 to have everything done.  
    
  RE: .replies
    
    I think that the $200 that .0 quoted probably included shot and a declaw
    procedure (I say this because the note referenced that the other two
    cats wer declawed as well as altered), and if you read the fine print on
    many of the low-cost spay/neuter certificates, that would disqualify
    the applicant from a reduced price spay/neuter.
    
    
    Deb

    To have all of her kitten shots (distemper, rabies), medicine for ear
    mites, spay and declaw cost about $170 for our baby. The spay alone
    only cost aroun %60.  But since your cat has already gone into heat,
    the spay will be about $25 more for a mature cat. 

    Doreen, if this happened only two weeks ago, even the vet won't
    be able to tell you if she is pregnant yet.  Palpation will not
    reveal pregnancy until the cat is at least three weeks along.  By
    the time they are three weeks, you can usually tell yourself.  I
    am not saying don't take her in, only that you should wait to take
    her in until it has been at least three weeks.
    
    If there were two tomcats, chances are that they never got to her
    because they were locked in battle over her.  Tomcats will not stand
    idly by and take turns with a female.  Usually they will fight until
    there is a clear cut winner and the loser runs away.  What you heard
    might have been the males fighting.  
    
    After a female is bred, they will usually roll all around on the
    ground, flipping back and forth.  This helps their bodies to ovulate
    (cats don't ovulate until mated).  It is also a good way to tell
    if the cat has *just* been bred.  This stage usually lasts about
    5-10 minutes and also includes alot of licking of the vaginal area.
    Hopefully you didn't see any of what I am describing going on with
    your female.
    
    Don't panic yet, there is a chance that she has not been bred. 
    Cats are not always regular in their heat cycles.  Some of my queens
    will be in heat for weeks, going in and out every week or so, and
    then won't be in for several months.
    
    I would suggest that you not keep her in the stairway anymore since
    the males found a way to get to her.  You can go ahead and have
    her spayed even if she is pregnant.  It may cost more.  I have never
    heard of it costing more for a cat that is mature, but I have heard
    of it costing more for a cat that is in heat at the time of the
    spay.
    
    Jo

    Thanks - No I didn't see any of those signs so hopefully she isn't
    pregnant.  She will be going to the vets in a couple weeks for spaying.

    
    Is neutering a cat the same amount of money as spaying?  I was told
    to wait until Frito was 8 months to get him neutered.  Is that too
    late/early?  I don't want him spraying the house.  He's a persian
    if that matters.
    
    Thanks
    chris

    Neutering is generally less expensive than a spay.  It's a much simpler
    operation.  8 months is about average.  The vets generally want to make
    sure their plumbing is fully mature to help in preventing FUS, a
    urinary tract problem.  Most males are ok waiting that long.  Our
    Tristan was done at 8 months.  He wasn't spraying, but he was starting
    to "jump Tenzing's bones" even though she was spayed.  His hormones
    were definately starting to act up.
    
    Karen, Tristan and Tenzing.

    My vet says nine, but I'm not waiting that long to find out!!  They're
    going in for surgery between 7 and 8 months.  If you live in the
    Sudbury, MA, area (or close enough to it), they will honor the Friends
    of Animals spay/neuter certificates regardless of whether or not
    you own a purebred (some vets feel if you have enough money to pay
    for a purebred then you can pay full price for the spay/neuter).
    Anyway, all the hospital requires if you aren't a regular client
    is a certificate from your current vet stating that Frito is up
    to date on his shots, namely distemper.
    
    My parents have used the Sudbury Animal hospital for their pets
    for over 10 years and their staff is very reputable and caring.
                                        

    By the way, a neuter through Friends of Animals costs $21.  That
    includes everything.
    

    When I bought Sam, the breeder said to wait between 9 to 12 months.
    I had him neutered at 10 months and never had any problems.
    
    I had Sweetie spayed yesterday (at 6 months) and the cost was $69.00.
    
    Jeanne, Cali, Sam and Sweetie
    
    

    When to spay or neuter depends on the individual cat and the vet.
    Some vets will do it as soon as the cat is 5 lbs, others want to
    wait.
    
    In my kitten contracts, I give a maximum of 10 months for
    spaying/neutering and usually put the "spay/neuter by (date)"
    right in there so that the buyer knows exactly when it has to be
    done by.  This has worked out well, the buyers are less likely to
    forget that the time is approaching.
    
    Tilly was spayed at 5 months and had no problems.  My male kittens
    have been done as early as 6 months with no problems.  
    
    Persian cats generally are slower to mature, so you may be able
    to go longer before you have to worry about it.
    
    Jo

    I have never heard of these Kitten contracts...how 'official' are
    they and if a buyer does not follow the contract, are you
    able to get the kitten back?
    
    M&N

    My kitten contract was written by myself and then reviewed by my
    attorney to be sure that it would hold up in court if ever challenged
    (either by me or by the buyer).  My contract does state that if
    the conditions of the contract are not met, I can reclaim the kitten
    without reimbursement of the sales price (in some instances, depends
    upon which clause of the contract is broken).
    
    The contract is designed to protect all parties.  It guarantees
    the buyer that they are getting a healthy kitten (contract requires
    that I take the kitten to a licensed, practicing veterinarian for
    a health exam and health certificate prior to the buyer picking
    the kitten up) and if, upon getting the kitten home, it is deamed not 
    to be healthy by a licensed, praticing vet, they may return it to me 
    for a full refund of purchase price.
    
    The contract is two pages long and I think it covers just about
    everything that I could think of.  I feel secure in using it and
    my kitten buyers feel secure in using it.
    
    Maybe Anne W. would like to add a few words about it.  She just
    signed two of them in the last month!
    
    Most breeders will use some type of contract.  If you are buying
    a purebred kitten and they don't ask you to sign one, maybe you
    should ask them for one.  After all, they are as much for your
    protection as for the breeder's.
    
    Jo

	When we bought our Siamese kittens as pets, we signed an 
	agreement with the breeder saying that we would have them
	spayed/neutered at the appropriate age.  She held on to 
	the registration applications, saying she would mail them
	to us as soon as we sent her proof that the kittens had
	been fixed.  At that point, we could register our kittens.
	The applications are marked 'spay/neuter only'.

	My guess is that this ensures that we won't set ourselves
	up in competition with her.  We could breed the cats
	anyway, but wouldn't be able to pass along papers with
	the kittens, hence they wouldn't be worth much $$.

	The agreement we signed also indicates that the kitten
	is healthy, and lists the shots that it has had, as well
	as the administering vet's name.


	

    re: .17
    
    >> My guess is that this ensures that we won't set outselves
    >> up in competition with her.
    
    Actually, reputable breeders put this clause in as an aid 
    against over breeding.  There are tons of unwanted cats out
    there, and if a cat (or dog) is sold as pet quality, it 
    shouldn't be bred so that it won't contribute to the over
    population problem.  Most good breeders don't really make 
    any money off it, it's a hobby more than anything else.
    
    Karen, Tristan and Tenzing.

    
    
    I want to get Frito fixed at about 8 months.  The breeder gave me
    a record of his shots but I have a feeling he never got any shots.
    I had some problems with purchasing Frito (in another note) and the
    breeder does not seem honest.  Question is:  The vet won't be able
    to tell if Frito really got those shots, right?  The breeder gave
    me a copy of the records but it wasn't done by a vet.  What should
    i do?
    
    
    Thanks
    chris

    I think if you really believe Frito hasn't had any shots, that the 
    vet can just give them again.  When we got Tristan we didn't know
    his medical history, so the vet just gave him the whole routine.  Ask
    your vet if there is any risk in a double-dose, just in case, and if
    not, have the whole series done.  Better safe than sorry.
    
    On the other hand, Aisha's breeder (Aisha's one of our borzois) gave
    all her first puppy shots, so we had no "official" vet record.  However,
    she was a reputable breeder and we trusted her.  We showed the vet
    the list of shots she'd had and he went from there.  So it's not
    unheard of for breeders to do their own shots.
    
    Karen, Tristan and Tenzing.

    My kitten contract contained a 48 hour health guarantee, a spay/neuter
    agreement, and stated they must be kept strictly indoors.  Of course
    after developing a good rapport with my breeder during the months
    I was waiting for my kittens (we spoke pratically every week), she
    changed the 48 hour health guarantee to a lifetime one.  She
    adminstered the kitten vaccinations herself and wrote them on the
    contract which I brought to my veterinarian on their first office
    visit.  The contract also stated that if for any reason I have to
    give up the kittens, to contact Linda (the breeder) first and she
    will buy them back from me.  I think it's only right to contact
    the breeder of the kitten in an extreme circumstance and would have
    exercised that option anyway regardless of whether or not it was
    written in the contract.
    
    I feel that contracts are necessary as they protect both the buyer
    and seller in the event something happens.  In one of my Ragdoll
    Review newsletters, there was a story about a woman who bought a
    male Ragdoll back in 1982.  She then went out and purchased a female
    Siamese and never had the two cats altered.  One Monday in 1987,
    a Massachusetts Ragdoll breeder received a phone call from the wife
    of the Animal Control Officer in Sharon, MA.  To make a long story
    short, someone had called in saying there was a woman with an abundance
    of pets that they suspected were being abused.  When the authorities
    arrived on the scene, they found over 100 kittens that these two
    cats had produced along with a lot of inbred offspring.  In addition
    to the cats and kittens, the woman also had 38 dogs and 28 tortoises
    running loose in her house!!  Apparently, the breeder who sold this
    woman the Ragdoll (not the Mass breeder mentioned above; the breeder
    in question had since gone out of business) had never followed up
    with the buyer on the status of neutering.  The Mass. breeder
    drove out to Sharon and rescued the Ragdoll who is now an intregal
    part of her breeding program (he was extremely feral and had to
    be tamed).  The authorities in Sharon worked very hard and were
    able to find homes for all of the kittens.
    
    Breeders:  Is it customary to follow-up with your buyers on the
    status of spaying/neutering if the kittens were sold with a spay/neuter
    agreement?  The above story had me in tears when I read it.  It
    really is a prime example of just how important it is to alter our
    pets.
    

    Getting back to an earlier note, the reason for the spay/neuter
    is not to keep away the competition, but to prevent overbreeding
    and more unwanted animals.  On the competition level, the cat can
    still be shown if it is of good enough quality, and if someone shows
    one of the cats of my breeding, that helps me by giving recognition
    to my cattery.  
    
    It is very important to build a rapport with your breeder.  She
    can offer you invaluable information about your breed that most
    vets will not know.  Most vets don't even know what a Birman is
    let alone having ever seen one.  
    
    In my contract I ask for "right of first refusal" on the cat should
    the owner *ever* have to place it into another home.  That means
    that I must be contacted first before any other steps are taken
    to place the cat.  It doesn't mean that I will automatically buy
    the cat back (this could be unreasonable if the people have had
    the cat for 10 years or so), it does mean that if I can't take it
    in, I will help find a responsible new home for it, and if I am
    able to sell the cat, I will forward that money on to the previous
    owner.
    
    I give my own vaccinations.  If I didn't do my own, I would have
    to charge more for kittens.  I don't enjoy sticking needles into
    my babies, but it has to be done.  Most breeders give their own
    vaccinations for the same reasons that I do.  My vet knows that
    I give my own shots, and on occasion he has even shown me new
    techniques for doing it.  I keep very accurate health records for
    all of my cats and kittens, the buyer will just have to trust that
    I did give the shots.  When I give a shot, I note the serial numbers
    off of the shot vials on the health record.  That way, if the kitten
    has a reaction to the shot, we can track down that batch of vaccine
    with the manufacturer and see if there is something wrong with it.
    I also keep epinephrine on hand just in case of anaphalactic shock.
    
    If you aren't sure if Frito had his shots or not (my guess is that
    he did have them) have the vet do them over.  Better to be over
    protected than under protected.  It shouldn't hurt him to have them
    done again, but don't do them while he is showing any sign of illness.
    Most of the vaccines are modified live virus and give the cat a
    tiny bit of the disease in order to stimulate antibody production.
    The vaccines themselves will often cause runny noses, eyes and sneezing
    for a few days while the body starts its antibody production.
    
    Jo

    re .21
    
    What exactly is meant by a lifetime health guarantee?  Does this
    mean that she pays his vet bills for life?  I give a guarantee against
    genetic defects but have never heard of a lifetime health guarantee.
    Most of the 48 hours health guarantee's are to give you time to
    get the kitten to your vet within the first couple of days so that
    he may check it out and proclaim it healthy.  The idea is that if
    it is not healthy you may take it back immeidiately for a refund
    or another kitten.
    
    To answer your other question, which I forgot to do in my last reply,
    yes, I do follow up with the spay/neuter contracts.  Since the deadline
    for all kittens of the same litter is the same date, I jot a note
    on my calendar to call (enter buyers names here) to make sure alter
    has been done.  I had a problem with one buyer this past December
    and that was the reason for the new and improved contract.  The
    old contract would have held up in court if need be, but this contract
    doesn't leave anything out.  Needless to say, the cat is now altered,
    and both he and his owner (and me) are much happier.
    
    Jo

    Actually, the lifetime guarantee is not a health guarantee at all.
    What I should have said is that in addition to purchasing a purebred
    cat, I also made a very good friend.  This was Linda's way of saying
    that if anything ever happened to one of my Ragdolls she would give
    me another kitten free of charge.  She knows I am giving them the
    very best of care and realizes that if anything ever did happen,
    it wouldn't be deliberate on my part and I would be heartbroken.
    It is her way of making good eing the kind, caring person she is.
    The money isn't important to her; what is important is making sure
    that her kittens go to good, loving homes (of course I realize this
    is most breeders intentions as well).  We just took our business
    relationship one step further and extended it to friendship.
    

    Speaking of interesting 'contracts', there was an ad for Siamese
    kittens in last week's Nashua Telegraph.  The price of the kittens was
    $100, with a 50-100% rebate upon spaying or neutering.  I like that!!
    
    Mary

	We ended up developing a friendship with the breeder
	we bought our kittens from, too.  Now we call each
	other regularly to see how all the babies are doing
	and get together once in a while.  Once she realized
	that we were ok people, she gave us the registration
	certificates for the kittens long before we had them
	fixed (one down, two to go).  We've also got a standing
	agreement with her that if she has any other less-than-
	perfect specimens that we get first crack at adopting 
	them :^}

    RE:  .26 -- adopting less than perfect kittens.
    
    Linda just bred one of her queens and told me if she has a few pets
    in the litter, she would give me another Ragdoll free.  Unfortunately,
    Dana wouldn't hear of it!  Oh, well... guess 5 is my limit for now.
    

    I think building a rapport with your breeder is important.  I have
    chosen great homes for all of my babies and have become good friends
    with all of them.  Even the guy who didn't want to neuter his baby
    when the time came!  (men can be very silly about that, especially
    if it is a male cat)  I like to keep up a good relationship so that
    I can still see my cats after they have grown up and moved away.
    I got Christmas cards and pictures from almost all of my previous
    buyers, and often they will come to the house to see the "new kids"
    when I have kittens.  I also like to see them take second kittens
    to help keep their first cats company, plus, since I know them so
    well already, I don't have to screen them again.
    
    Jo

    I agree.. Pookie and Happy still write to their "other mothers"..
    and of course they always ask for the other kids,, and they relate
    sories about their homes etc, Pookie's breeder Allison works in
    a real estate office near the nashua mall.. and I  stop in every
    now and again to say hi,, I usually bring some pictures etc..
    and last winter when Pookie had a bout with the pookie flu
    and fus, I called Alison , and she called me everyday to see how
    Pookie was doing..I used to put pookie on the phone,,, and she
    remembered allisons voice.. it was cute.. say hi to allison..
    pookie...she has given me some real good tips too..
    regards
    kate

    >I used to put pookie on the phone,,, and she
    >remembered allisons voice.. it was cute.. say hi to allison..
    >pookie...
    
        You mean my husband isn't the only one who puts the cat
    on the phone!  When I was travelling for my last job Jack would
    put Isis on the phone.  Guess she recognized my voice cause she'd
    lick the receiver.  I'd be calling cross country and end up listening
    to the cat lick the receiver!  If my employer ever knew what they
    were paying for!

    .. Oh  yes, my S/O leaves messages on my answering machine for them..
    you hear this voice.. Pookie and Happy .. this is your daddy...
    etc.. my mom will call and if I am not at home.. you will hear..
    Hi Pookie and Happy this is Nana.. how are you.. tell your mommy
    to call me.. be good Girls.. tee-hee
    Regards
    Kate

    Ok, I confess
    
    When I fly to shows, I call home Saturday night to report the
    days wins/losses to my friend who is taking care of the home
    front while I show her cat - she, of course, has to put some
    of the babies on the phone so I can talk with them.
    
    When I had two or three of my friend's show cats at the house,
    she would call every night that she didn't come over and talk
    with them.  They were so cute, tilting their heads when they
    heard Mom's voice!!  They KNEW who was on the phone.
    
    E.T.

    Gee, guess I don't have to feel so silly now, when my hubby has
    Trouble talk to the phone.  He even does it for his mother who has
    only met Trouble once.  And I thought I was the crazy cat lover
    in this family :-)  
    
    Bernice
    Mother_of_Trouble

    When Sklyer was a baby and his Mommy was away, I always put him on the
    phone to talk to her.  He still enjoys talking on the phone...
    
    Gee, Kate, I'm surprised Pookie doesn't have an answering service to
    inform callers that the Princess is not granting audiences today!!
    
    Mary

    .. Now you know why I have an answering machine, Mary.. my messageahas
     Phrase in it that states.. WE are all fine here.. and I had to
    ask Pookies permission  to phrase it that way,, I did have GEORGE
    AND GRACIE,, but she made me take it off..!!!Happy liked it!!!..
    its funny.. Happy will talk back to it.. especially if it is her
    Daddy,, Pookie sits there.. very regally.. and purrrrrrrrss.. but
    Happy goes  bonkers.. she talks and mews.. as if to say.. Daddy..
    hi.... it me.. Your Happy cat..  it is soooooooo funny..... it was
    funny
    when I brought home the machine.... her first question was.. did
    you use my "inheritance fund for this.....!!!!!!!!.. I calmly
    expalined to her No, Mummy used "mad money".. Pookie honey..
    her reply.. good,, now where is my mad money, mommy..?....
    Regards
    Kate