Conference misery::feline_v1

    You are really having a tough time with this new kitten.  I can
    understand how you are feeling.  You are angry at the breeder for
    selling you a kitten who isn't well, and feel bad for the kitten
    for having to go through all of this.
    
    I breed Birman cats.  I live in California.  In California it is
    not required by law that any kitten that I sell have a health
    certificate, but every kitten that I sell gets one anyway.  The
    health certificate must be issued by a licensed vet, and the vet
    must personally check the cat out before issueing one.  Many breeders
    here in CA do not give health certificates.  You might check with
    the authorities in NH to find out for sure if it is required.  The
    law may be that only animals sold to pet stores must have a
    certificate.  That wouldn't help you since you bought from a breeder.
    
    I think I would give the breeder the benefit of the doubt on the
    heart murmur.  When I take my kittens in for their certificates
    my vet often has a hard time listening to their hearts because they
    are purring so loudly.  We have actually tried tapping their noses
    and pinching their paws in an attempt to get them to stop.  There
    is a slight chance that her vet wasn't able to hear it.  There is
    also a chance that the kitten never saw a vet at all.  If she gives
    her own vaccines, the kitten may never have been to a vet.
    
    Also keep in mind that a kitten can pick up an upper respitory illness
    very easily if they are stressed.  Moving to a new home is very
    stressful on a young kitten (before four months of age).  Some kittens
    can become sick.  Also, if the kitten was vaccinated shortly before
    you picked him up, that would increase his chances of catching a
    cold when he got to your house.  Most vaccines that are used are
    modified live virus vaccines and they give the kitten a little bit
    of the illness in order to stimulate the kitten's body to produce
    antibodies to the illness.  Add stress to this and you have a high
    potential for the kitten becoming ill.
    
    I am definitely not trying to defend this breeder.  From the sounds
    of it, she may have been trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
    I think it might be a good idea for you to consult a lawyer and
    find out what your legal rights are.  Did she make you sign a contract?
    Did the contract cover liability in case the kitten became ill?
    I just wanted to arm you with more information in case she gives
    you any more trouble.  You might try sending her a registered letter
    telling her of the problems you are having.  Then she can't ignore
    you and you have proof that you have notified her of the problem.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Jo

    I agree !!!
    
    If this women doesn't know the difference between flea bites and
    kitten nip bites than she shouldn't be breeding and selling 
    kittens.
    
    Sandi
    
    

    
    Re: .0
    
    Geez, I can imagine how youy feel!!  I know how angry I get when
    I buy something defective from a store ... I rush right back and
    return it!!  But kittens are different, especially this one since
    its apparent that he has already found a place in your heart!
    
    Good luck getting the money from the breeder!  I'm sure that something
    can be done about it, but just remember, if it going to cost you more
    than you've already paid both in $$vet bills and time/aggravation, 
    you might want to forget it.
    
    Karen

    As an addendum to reply .1
    
    It is not required by law that a kitten have a health certificate
    at the time of sale *unless* the kitten will be shipped.  It is
    not the state of California that requires this, it is the shipping
    companies (airlines, etc.).  I get one anyway because it protects
    me as well as the buyer.  If the kitten has a health certificate,
    then there is no doubt that the kitten was healthy at the time of
    the sale.
    
    Jo

    
    It sounds like this woman is ignoring you because she's well aware
    that she sold you a sick kitty.   If you wrote her a check - cancel
    it until the matter is settled to both parties satisfaction.  If
    you gave her cash, well, keep trying to reach her - get in your
    car and drive over if you have to.  The longer you wait to inform
    her that she sold you a sick kitten, the more you'll become 
    responsible for that kitten's vet bills, etc.              
                    
    I know I should give her (bredder) the benefit of the doubt, but
    I'm not convinced that this woman didn't know the condition of the
    kitten when she sold him/her.  As a bredder, how could she be so 
    blind......
    
    Good luck and keep us informed.
    
    Barbara
    

    Be prepared to give the kitten back to the breeder when you reach
    her.  This is probably what she will do, offer you a full refund
    in exchange for the kitten back.  If you do not give her back the
    kitten, the most you can hope for is to have her reimburse you on
    the costs of the vet bills.
    
    If you love the kitten and can't bear to part with it, you might
    want to chalk it up to experience and get the kitten some good medical
    care and put the whole thing behind you.  Was there a contract involved
    in this purchase?  Alot of kitten buyers shy away from contracts
    but they are necessary to protect both buyer and seller in a case
    such as this.
    
    It is good that you have shared this experience with us, may help
    others from getting into a similar situation.  Not only does a breeder
    need to spend time checking out the buyer, but the buyer needs to
    spend time checking out the breeder.  Trust me, not all breeders
    are like this, those that are give the rest of us a bad name.
    
    Hope it all works out okay and Frito is feeling better soon.
    
    Jo

    The feliner who suggested it may cost you more to pursue this
    breeder than you'd get back may very well be right.  You have
    to decide if you want to persever to make a point.   You may
    save other kittens and buyers from the same aggravation and
    suffering you and your kitten have gone through.
      You must decide right now how far you are willing to go.  I
    would also suggest that you call the local ASPCA and see if they
    can help you in any way.
      And I heartily agree with the registered letter.
      Good luck and keep us posted.
        Nancy DC
    

    
    
    Hi everyone,
    
    I called the breeder again and i'm still getting the "recording".  She
    knows that she gave us a sick kitten and she has our number but we
    haven't gotten a phone call from her.  My mother told me to stop
    payment on the check but if I do that then most likely i'd have to give
    Frito back and there is no way I could do that.  I'm still going to
    keep trying to get in touch with her so I can at least get reimbursed
    for the vet bill.
    
    Frito is on Anti-biotics twice a day.  He's doing much better.  I can
    count how many times he sneezes now during the day, before he'd sneeze
    about every two minutes and that's what convinced me to take him to the
    vet.  I give him a vitamin supplement once a day (vet gave it to me).
    Frito is starting to "liven up".  He runs all over the house and has
    more energy.  When I bought him he just layed there.  He didn't want to
    play or anything.  Now he's like a new kitten!  We've been giving Frito
    a lot of attention and love (and medicine) and you can tell the
    difference.  He's going back to the vet on the 20th of Feb. just to see
    how is leg and his respitory system is doing.  
    
    I'll let everyone know the outcome of me calling the breeder.  I'm
    hoping the breeder will be understanding.  I've cooled off quite a bit
    since last time I wrote in here.  Frito's good recovery has made me
    "chill out". ;-)
    
    
    thanks everyone!
    chris

    How about stopping payment on the check, issuing another check
    for $200 minus the vet bill?
    
    Donna

    Chris
    
    Glad to hear that Frito is doing so much better now.  Now that you
    are chilled out, you will probably get a little farther with the
    breeder.  Plus, being calm, cool, and collected will probably make
    her take you more seriously.  
    
    I still don't think stopping payment on the check is a good idea.
    Besides, she probably already cashed it.  The ASPCA will probably
    not be able to help you unless you can prove that she has inhumane
    conditions in her cattery.  It is not their territory to police
    catteries to find out who is selling sick kittens.  
    
    Writing to CFA may at least bring you some satisfaction, but probably 
    won't get the cattery shut down.  CFA is in the process of forming an 
    ethics committee to investigate cattery complaints, but as of yet has not
    been able to really do anything to these people.  They can't close
    her down, the strictest thing that they can do is barr her from
    registering any kittens or showing in any CFA shows.  And to get
    that far you will first have to write a protest and then she will
    have to go before the board of directors and give her side of the
    story.  There is alot of red tape.
    
    If you do not have a contract from the breeder stating that you
    would be reimbursed for any medical bills within X amount of days,
    I am afraid you really have no recourse.  You can tell the breeder
    that you are upset and that you would like to have her pay you for
    the vet bills, but if she refuses then there isn't much you can
    do.  You could try taking her to small claims court.
    
    You have learned from the experience and so have many of us in this
    file.  Unless you are willing to give Frito back to her (and it
    sounds like you aren't), it may be best to just go on with your
    life and let this pass.  Frito has obviously benefited from living
    with you and it would be a shame to give him back to someone who
    wouldn't care for him properly.
                      
    To any of you that are buying a purebred kitten, contracts are so
    important, not just to the breeder, but to the buyer too.  That
    way if anything does go wrong, both parties are protected.  And
    a contract will help you if you need to take someone to small claims
    court.  It would also be good to ask the breeder if she gives health
    certificates when she sells a kitten.  If not, offer to pay the
    $15.00 for the certificate if she will take the kitten in for the
    exam.  It would be worth it and could save some money in the longrun.
    
    Jo

    
    Frito has been taken Amoxicillan (sp.?) twice a day.  Well, this past
    Friday Frito's medicine was empty.  On Saturday he was just laying
    around, listless.  He didn't have an appetite (which is not like him
    at all).  Yesterday, Frito was laying on his side and I went to go
    pick him up with one hand (he's still tiny) and his little legs just
    flopped like he had no energy at all.  I knew right then that something
    was very wrong and I felt his chest and it was very hot.  I called the
    vet and down we went to his office. He had a temp. of 102.8 (not as
    high as before but still high) and the vet said that his nostrils are
    so closed up that he might have to eventually get surgery to make them
    bigger because he can hardly breath.  The vet said that this is common
    with Persians.  My father is ticked off now and he's writing a
    registered letter to the breeder.  I should have done this right off
    but since Frito was getting better I was just going to blow it off and
    learn from my bad mistakes.  I know i'll get no money reimbursement. 
    Yesterday's bill was $83.00 and Frito has to go Wed. to the Vets again.
    As soon as I got the antibiotics in him he started to be playful again
    so that's a good sign!
    
    chris

    Chris,
    
    I wish you the best of luck with Frito and if there is anything
    that I can do to help, please don't hesitate to call me.
    
    Kathy Morrell
    

    Hi Chris,
    
    I was sorry to hear about your baby.  I was wondering which
    vet you were using?  If you haven't as yet tried Dr. Brody
    in Hudson on 102 - you may want to consider him.  He is
    the best diagnostician in this area!  He and all of his
    staff are excellent.
    
    I hope Frito feels better soon.
    
    E.T.

    Chris,
    
    My heart really goes out to you.  As the owner of two purebred cats,
    I know how difficult it is to find a breeder who you like and trust
    and feel comfortable doing business with.  It took me a long time
    to find a Ragdoll breeder who cared more about the cats than the
    money.
    
    Don't give up trying to nail this lady into the wall.  If you just
    take a back seat and learn from your experience as other noters
    have suggested, this breeder will still be out there breeding and
    selling sick kittens.  I can see learning from our experiences in
    certain situations but not when it involves living creatures with
    needs and feelings.  Please don't give up trying to contact this
    woman.  Hopefully, you will be able to reach her and work things
    through.  Keep us all posted.  There has got to be a way to resolve
    this.  I'm on your side and you can contact me off-line if you need
    to.
    
    /Roberta
    

    
    
    Sunday nite the breeder called me and said that she got our message
    about Frito on the recorder.  She said that she has been on vacation.
    She seemed very concerned and upset about Frito being sick.  I told
    her how two vets said that he had a heart murmer and he doesn't seem
    to be getting better.  She gave me two options: (1) give back the
    cat and get my $200.00 back. (2) keep Frito and when her next litter
    comes I get a free Persian kitten.  Well, there is no way I could
    give back Frito because i'm really attached to him.  My parents are
    mad at me because I should have asked for reimbursement on the vet
    bills.  I failed to ask the breeder  that on the phone and I should
    have but I wasn't prepared because I didn't think the breeder could
    be reached.  So, when I take Frito to the vets today, I have to
    have him write out his findings on Frito and send it to the breeder.
    In turn, she said she is going to send me a letter saying that I get
    a free kitten (this one better be healthy).  What would you do in
    this situation?  Even if I do contact her and ask for the vet bills
    to be paid by her, she will say "no" and i'm sure of that.  Also,
    i'm really worried about my cat because I don't know if he's going
    to get better.  Need some suggestions on the breeder situation and/or
    Frito's condition.
    
    
    Thanks
    chris

    If you decide to take the free kitten I have two suggestions:
    1. Get this agreement in writing and
    2. Insist (and have this put in #1) that the kitten be checked out
       by a vet and that you get a WRITTEN certificate of health.
       Furthermore, insist that (again in writing) if your vet determines
       the kitten to be unhealthy within 48 hrs of bringing it home,
       that she reimburse you for any vets bill incurred.
    Oh - and you might also insist that you get to pick the kitten
    yourself.  Otherwise, she might pass of a low quality kitten on
    you since its a freebee.
    
    Lets face it, even in 48 hrs you get attached to a kitten so this
    return it for you moneyback stuff just doesn't work!

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I think her offer of a free kitten is more
    than fair and will offset the vetr costs you've spent on Frito.  I'm
    glad both of you have had the opportunity to talk and settle things.
                                              
    Another happy ending!
    
    /Roberta
    
    

    I wouldn't be so sure about the breeder not agreeing to pay Frito's
    vet bills.  As you said, you were surprised that she called you
    back.  But apparently she was out of town, not just ignoring you.
    
    I would contact her again to further discuss Frito's condition,
    and mention to her that you will be forwarding to her a copy of
    your vet's report on Frito's health and copies of all of Frito's
    vet bills that you EXPECT her to reimburse you for.  The breeder
    gave you her options, now it's time for you to give her your options.
    Try to get her to pay for all your vet bills, and if that doesn't
    work, at least get her to pay a portion - start at 90% or so.  
    
    Even though she has offered to give you another kitten free of charge,
    it doesn't help you with your present situation.  It is nice and
    generous of her, but doesn't overcome the fact that she sold you
    a sick kitty who is accruing lots of vet bills.
    
    Good luck.  And I hope Frito is feeling better.
    
    	-Nancy

    I agree with Roberta.  I think the breeder has offered you a fair
    compromise.  If you want to be reimbursed for the vet bills, you
    should also give Frito to her, maybe she would also refund the fee
    you paid for him in that case, I don't know.  Since you have no 
    contract that states that she will reimburse you for vet bills within 
    a certain amount of time, you have no legal way of forcing her to 
    pay you.  Instead, what you can do, is take her up on her offer of 
    a free kitten next time (she will be the one to decide which kittens 
    are to be offered as pet quality since you are not in a position to 
    make that judgement), and insist on a contract that states explicitely 
    that the kitten will be delivered with a health certificate from a 
    licensed vet, and that if it develops any symptoms of illness within 
    the first 48 hours, you can take it back for a full refund of your 
    original payment on Frito.
    
    One of the reasons that it isn't fair to make her reimburse you
    for your vet bills (please, no flames here.  I am expressing an
    opinion of my own that has been developed over the last few years
    from my experiences as a breeder, and from the experiences of other
    breeders with whom I am acquainted) is that veterinary medicine
    is not like human medicine.  It is not an exact science.  Alot of
    veterinary medicine is done on a trial and error basis.  Since the
    patient cannot tell the vet what the symptoms are, and where it
    hurts, the vets have to guess.  Then they will choose a medication
    based on trial and error.  Often, the choice of medication can depend
    on whether a drug representative has been there that day giving
    samples and telling the praises of his product (this happens in
    human medicine too sometimes).  Vets are not pharmacists.  Alot
    of their drug information comes from company reps.
    
    The point of all of this is that trial and error can be costly.
    The first medication doesn't make the cat better, so you have to
    take the cat back for a recheck.  There is a charge for the second
    office visit, exam, and medications.  Often, the vet will insist
    on a recheck which will cost you more.  I am not saying that Vets
    do this on purpose to get more money out of you.  The don't usually
    do that type of thing.  What I am saying is that different vets
    will treat the same illness in different ways.  One vet may hit
    the nail on the head the first time and be able to clear up your
    cat's problem with just one visit.  Others may take another line
    of treatment and it may be more costly.
    
    I feel that since you had the cat treated at your vet, and you chose
    the treatments (what else could you do but treat him, I understand
    that), then you are responsible to pay for them.  Since Frito has
    a heart murmur, you may want to reconsider keeping him.  Did your
    vet give you any idea of how this might affect him in the future.
    As a footnote though, Jesse, a cat of mine who died recently, was 
    diagnosed as having a heart murmur in December of 1986.  His death had 
    nothing to do with the murmur, which the vet said he had probably had all
    of his life. He was about 17 and a half when he died.
    
    You will do what you feel is the best for you.  My feeling is that
    if you want reimbursement for the vet bills, then you shouldn't
    expect the free kitten or the fee back for Frito.  Otherwise, accept
    the free kitten with a very straight forward contract about it's
    health and what steps will be taken should it not be healthy.
    
    I hope this doesn't sound like I am trashing vets.  That was not
    my intention.  I was in a similar situation with Kalliste when I
    first bought him, but I didn't tell the breeder.  Kalliste had
    Chlamydia which is very common in cats.  He could have caught it
    anywhere.  There is no way to prove that he had it when I got him.
    I had a health certificate on him when I got him.  I didn't know
    that it was Chlamydia and kept taking him to my regular vet to try
    to clear it up.  Two month and $500.00 later, I decided to try a
    feline opthamologist.  It took two visits, about $150.00 and three
    weeks to cure him of the Chlamydia.  Had I taken him to the specialist
    in the first place, I would have saved myself a bundle.  When it
    was all over I told his breeder about it.  She said "you should have 
    called me, I would have told you what medication works best on
    Chlamydia and we could have taken care of it in a matter of weeks".  
    She then sent me a check for half of the vet bills.  And you know
    what, she was right about the medicine, it was the same one that
    the opthamologist had used. ;^)  I love happy endings.
    
    Jo

    When I first got my kittens home they had a very persistent viral
    infection that took almost two months to clear up.  They sneezed
    a lot and had frequent, runny stools with blood in them.  They spent
    almost every Saturday at the vets while she tried them on different
    antibiotics (Albon finally cured it but then again, it could have
    been a combination of all of them in the long run!).  I was extremely
    lucky in that she only charged me for the first office visit and
    from then on it was only the cost of antibiotics which was minimal.
    She even administered the felv vaccinations without charging an
    office visit on top of the cost of the shots.  I think my vet could
    be an exception to the rule since I know a lot of people who have
    gone through what Jo stated in her previous reply (experiment with
    this and that and all of sudden you find yourself going broke from
    veterinary expenses).
    
    Please keep us updated on Frito and your situation.  I hope these
    replies are giving you some helpful insight.
    
    /Roberta
    
    
     

    
    
    Well, I took Frito to the vet yesterday and the vet said that the
    amoxicillan that Frito has been on for two weeks now doesn't seem
    to be working.  Now, Frito is on pills.  I forgot the name of them
    it begins with an "F" and the pills are small and white.  I am supposed
    to give Frito a pill once a day for 10 days.  It's not going to be easy
    and I asked if I could mash it up in his food but the vet said that
    he's got to take it whole because he will foam at the mouth because of
    its bitter taste.  I've never given an animal a pill down its throat
    before.  I tried this morning and he squirmed all over the place and
    wouldn't open his mouth.  They told me how to open his mouth and hold
    his head back but I think it's going to take two people.  Wish me luck
    I need it!  
    
    About the breeder.  This is what I decided to do.  Any opinions on my
    decision would be great!  
    
    The vet yesterday gave me a letter to give to the breeder stating the
    things that were wrong with Frito.  I planned on calling the breeder
    tonite and tell her that Frito is not doing much better and that he
    is now on pills for 10 days.  If he is not better within 10 days
    I will have no choice but to give him back to her and get my $200.00
    which was the cost of the cat.  I did tell her that I would like to
    keep Frito and take a free kitten but that was before I went to the
    vets and found out that he's on pills and not getting much better.
    If Frito does get better then in 10 days then I will keep him and
    take the free kitten.  Do you think this is fair?  It was a hard 
    decision to make by giving up Frito if he doesn't get better but
    I don't have the money for anymore vet bills and i'm still paying
    fro the other ones.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed..
    
    chris

	If you can part with Frito, maybe the breeder will refund your 
	money AND give you a kitten from the next litter.  This is being
	a little optimistic, but she sounds reasonable and you did spend
	a lot of money trying to make Frito(now her kitten) healthy.  
	If you decide to give Frito back, it's worth a try.  

	Becky

    Chris,
    My cat Kitty sent me to the hospital the day before Christmas from
    trying to give her a pill so be careful. What happened was one of
    her claws got stuck right in the vein of my hand, (I have large
    veins) my hand swelled instantly it looked like a balloon being
    blown up. I was scared. Any way after getting an IV and being on
    antibiotics for 2 weeks I survived. Any way I told the vet what
    happened and he sold me a device (I can't think of the name of it)
    I'll call it a pill popper, boy did that make life easier. You might
    want to ask your vet about it. Maybe someone in here could give
    you the real name of the pill popper?
    
    Jan  - Jezebel & Kitty
    

    When my Ragdoll kitten was giving Tribrissan pills for a viral
    infection, he foamed at the mouth from the bitter taste.  He fought
    me while I was trying to pill him and some of the coating rubbed
    off on his tongue and teeth.  He was running around the house foaming
    at the mouth and shaking the saliva all over the carpet.  It was
    awful.  I had to contain him and keep wiping his mouth with a
    washcloth.
    
    I hope Frito is better soon.  Sounds like you're much too attached
    to him to have to give him back.
    
    /Roberta
    

    Somewhere in here is a note with suggestions for how to give cats
    pills.  What works best with mine is to tuck them under my left arm
    while I have them between me and the side of the chair, hold their head
    with my left hand over the top, and push gently down of the
    front of the lower jaw with my right hand, then hold the open jaw
    open by placing my left thumb and finger in the back of the jaw (left
    hand still in place on the top of the head), and pop the pill in
    with the right hand.  Those bitter pills that cause mouth foaming
    are a real mess.
    

    RE: -1
    
    1971.16
    
    

    I think your decision is a fair one for you and the breeder.  Reply
    .22 was a little optimistic about getting money back for Frito,
    giving him up, and still getting the free kitten.  I am not sure
    if that would be feasible from the breeder's point of view.  You
    weren't treating *her* kitten, you were treating *your* kitten.
    He belonged to you at the time the treatment was given.  But it
    does sound like she wants to make restitution for your problems
    with Frito so she may be willing to work out some sort of compromise.
    The money that you have paid so far has gone to A) the breeder for
    Frito,  B) the vet for treatment.  Her liability to you is limited
    only to what you have paid her since there is no contract stating
    otherwise.
    
    If you aren't happy giving Frito pills, have the vet prescribe another
    antibiotic that can be used in liquid form.  Tribriserin isn't your
    last hope.  There are alot of other antibiotics.  I have had very
    good results with Clavamox and Cefadrops, both of which are liquids.
    (He does have an upper respiratory infection, doesn't he?  I have
    used these two meds for URI)  I have also found that the longer
    the cat has been sick, the longer it will take on antibiotics to
    make them well.  He has been sick for about a month, so ten days
    on meds might not be enough.  Be sure that you are absolutely religous
    about giving the medication to him every day.  Try to space the
    doses out in equal amounts of time between doses.  (Twice a day
    at 7:00 AM and 7:00 PM, three times a day at 7:00 AM, 3:00 PM, and
    11:00 PM, etc.)
    
    I am glad that you and the breeder are able to discuss this with
    each other.  Things like this can be very emotional for both sides.
    
    Jo
    

    Jo, I can see your point about a breeder cannot always be responsible
    for the health of a kitten.  Kittens pick up illnesses quite easily.
    But the fact that when Chris brought Frito home he was limping and
    had flea bites - I think Chris is entitled to reimbursement for
    some of her medical bills.  From her original note, I don't know
    if Frito was sneezing when Chris first bought him, but if he was,
    I would then expect Chris to be reimbursed for part of those medical
    bills as well.  I think the issue revolves around the fact that
    Frito did have health problems when Chris got him.  If Frito was 
    perfectly healthy when Chris got him and developed these ilnesses 
    later, I would hold a different position.  
    
    But at this point, I would still recommend forgetting about the
    $200, forget about the new kitten, and try get reimbursed for some
    of the medical bills.

    	-Nancy

    
    
    Me and about 5 other people tried to get Frito's mouth opened
    and he got a little taste of the pill and flipped out!  I just
    got off the phone with the vet and I told him that I can't get
    the pill down the cats throat and is there anything else I could
    possibly give him.  He suggested that I bring him in there for
    10 days and let them give Frito the medicine.  Believe me, if I
    had a lot of money that's the first thing I would do but it's
    $12.00 per day for 10- days...Yikes!  So he is going to give me
    another liquid but still thinks that the pills would be the best.
    Now I feel rotten because I can't put Frito into the hospital. :-(
    I'm just hoping that this liquid does work.  
    
    -chris

    I think I take exception to your position Jo.  Lack of a
    contract does not necessarily mean the consumer has no
    recourse against a 'defective' product.  This type of situation
    may fall under the implied warranty laws.  Of course, the
    burden may be on the consumer to prove the product was defective
    when purchased.  Probably the purchase of animals does not fall
    within these laws, but you never know.  Implied warranty simply
    means that the product should perform as advertised and be free
    from defect, *regardless* of whether or not there is a disclaimer
    absolving the seller of such guarantees.  Many times you'll see 
    on the label of a product something to the effect of 'we make no
    guarantees about this product or its performance'.  These mean nothing,
    they do not stand up in a court of law.
    
    It would be interesting to know if any situation of this sort has
    been brought to court.  Any previous legal decisions would have set
    precedent.
    
    Myself, I would request full reimbursement for vet bills.  If I didn't
    get it I would see her in court, absolutely no question about it.
    
    Donna 

    Okay, I have already replied to Chris by mail, but I thought I'ld
    put my feelings here, as another breeder.
    
    Whenever I sell a kitten, I always suggest that the kitten is brought
    in to the vet for a "Well Visit" within the two weeks, preferably,
    the first week.  If the kitten is found to be unhealthy for any
    reason, I would do one of two things....either refund them for the
    medication part of the vet bill, or take the kitten back and give
    them a refund of the purchase price.  
    
    I, myself, give a 30 day health guarantee....but the "well visit"
    must be done to receive the 30 day health guarantee.  If a kitten
    got sick after the first two weeks and was not brought in for a
    "well visit" the offer of payment for meds/vet bills is no longer
    available.  I would, however, offer to take the kitten back and
    refund the original purchase price, minus the original deposit,
    which could be used towards the purchase of another healthier kitten
    if the buyer so desires.  The original deposit on any kitten is
    non-refundable under any conditions....this is stated explicitly
    in writing up front.   
    
    Since Chris brought her kitten into the vet less than 48 hours after
    she brought it home, I do believe that the breeder is responsible
    for at least part of the medication part of the vet bill....but,
    she should also have input into the treatment that the kitten receives
    and should be allowed to take the kitten to her vet if she so desires.
    
    I, personally, would question the integrity of any breeder that
    would let a kitten go with a severely sprained leg anyway....
    
    Jo, if you had a kitten that was limping....would you let a pet
    person, who had already stated she had never owned a cat, take the
    kitten home???  I would have let her come and see the kitten, but
    I would not have let it out of my house until I KNEW for sure the
    kitten was A-Ok.  And knowing you as well as I do, Jo, I think you
    will probably agree that the breeder didn't seem to care a whole
    lot about the condition of the kitten when she sold it.  You or
    I wouldn't have let that kitten leave our house!!!
    
    cin
    
    
    

    When I purchased my Ragdolls, I too, was required to take them in
    for a "Well Visit", only her contract stated within 48 hours.  This
    upset me because I felt that since I was paying her big money for
    two pedigreed cats, they damn well better be healthy.  Shouldn't
    it be the breeders responsibility to take the kitten to the vet
    before the buyer takes them home?  Why is it the buyer's
    responsibility?  Please, I'm not flaming breeders here; I have many
    breeder friends and know that all of the breeders who participate
    in this file love their cats more than anything.  I'm just curious
    as to why, in addition to paying for the kitten, the buyer also
    has to fork out an extra $20 plus for a vet visit?  If it is for
    the protection of the buyer, please elaborate (in case I missed
    something earlier).
    
    /Roberta
    
    

    
    
        I've been watching this note with alot of interest.  As this
    note has been getting more involved the emotion that has hit me
    is quite frankly sadness and sincere deep sympathy for the buyer.
    Take into consideration I am not a breeder and quite truthfully
    no next to zilch as far as breeding policies, standards, etc....
    I have learnt alot from this note though and I'm glad for that.
    So from my standpoint this is what I see and probably why I feel
    so terrible for the buyer:
    
           She went in good faith to pay $$'s for a kitten to love and
    bring into her home.
    
            She has had to endure the anticipation of a confrontation
    with the breeder whom she didn't know at that time wasn't ignoring
    her phone calls while having to also worry about the kitten's health.
    
             She has had to put in more money to try to rememdy the
    problems which were there from the beginning.
    
              She has become attached to Frito and if it were me with
    the way the kitten has been ill that would only make me more attached.
    
              She has to deal with the conflict of keeping or giving
    up Frito.
    
               She has to deal with wanting to take the best possible
    care of the little one but now can't because of the bills being
    incurred.  
    
                Now I don't know what anyone else is gathering from
    all of this but it sure seems to me like she is really getting 
    a rough ride.  If I had the money I'd pay the $120 for Frito to
    be boarded.  Maybe thats why I can sympathize so much, I know very
    well I could be in the same position if it were me instead.  I have
    a tough time with one of the options is to bring the sick kitten
    back.  I wouldn't be able to but if I was faced with I can't afford
    it (when the kitten was sick from the beginning!!!) I might be forced
    to and that is the biggest shame of all.  Whatever you do I'm behind
    you because I can see exactly what kind of a corner you've been
    backed into.  I , myself, would try to get the money for the vets
    bills out of her but then only you know when you've had enough.
    
                Hang in there.
    
                                                          kim

    The reason I require the vet visit is for the protection of the
    buyer!!!  It is also to protect the kitten, which can quickly pick
    up a cold or other minor virus from the stress of moving.  That's
    why I say 1 to 2 weeks, that way if the kitten is going to catch
    something from the new environment, it will be treated promptly.
    I also feel that the new vet should get a chance to see the kitten
    before it gets sick....I take every new kitten or cat that I get
    in for a vet check no matter what!!!  
    
    I also suggest at this time that they FelV check the kitten, since
    I don't do the Felv tests on kittens.  I don't know if other breeders
    do these or not.  
    
    All my kittens are usually vet checked within the week that they
    are picked up.  
    
    Breeders can't be responsible for everything that can happen to
    a kitten, but by requesting the wellness visit, they can hope to
    catch any possible illness as quickly as possible.
    
    I think this discussion is very interesting.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    RE: .29
    
    Chris,
    
    where do you live? I'm real good at pilling cats, and if you are in the
    greater Waltham Ma, area, I'd be glad to help. If not, I've got one of
    those "Bullseye" pet pillers that I'd be glad to lend you (send me mail
    if you'd like to borrow it and we can work out the logistics). It works
    when all other methods fail. Also, another "trick" that I sometime use
    on "bitter pills" is to coat them in butter.
    
    
    Deb

    I think your arrangement is quite reasonable Cin, paying for
    the medication part of the bill.   I hope noone feels that
    any general indictment of breeders is being made here.  The
    breeders in FELINE are a good example of reputable, responsible
    breeding.  I question whether the breeder under discussion in
    this note really is.   My feeling is that she isn't, and that
    is what dictates how I would handle it.
    
    Even allowing for the 'individuality' of veterinary treatment
    that Jo mentions, it would seem some reimbursement would be in
    order.  Giving the cat back for a refund just doesn't feel
    *right* to me.
    
    Donna

    I second .35.  If you live anywhere near Nashua (where I work) or 
    Shirley, MA, I'll help you pill.  I'm good at it too.  I've never
    had trouble pilling any number of cats.  In fact, our new cat
    Max needs pills for round worms and even though he'd only known
    me for a couple of days he didn't react much at all.  I pilled
    him so fast it was over before he knew it.
    
    Good luck,
    Karen, Tristan, Tenzing and Max.

    I don't know if this is really proper to bring this up, but we are
    all talking about what the breeders responsibility is here....
    
    What about the buyers responsibilities???
    
    I think Chris did great by bringing the kitten in right away, but
    should she have called the breeder immediately, before bringing
    the kitten in???  Should she have questioned the sneezing, and limp,
    and offered a deposit and picked up the kitten later??
    
    I'm not saying that the breeder isn't responsible, but the only
    person that can protect the buyer is themselves.  There are good
    and bad breeders.  
    
    How about some ideas on how a buyer can protect themselves from
    getting in this situation???
    
    I have a few myself, that I'll list:
    
    1.  Always request the health guarantee and terms in writing.  If
    the breeder won't give you at least 48 hours to return the kitten
    if it isn't checked out healthy from your vet, DON'T BUY!!!
    
    2.  If anything doesn't appear right with the kitten, don't be sucked
    in by a cute furface.  If you really want that particular kitten,
    be patient, and ask if you can leave a deposit and pick the kitten
    up when the problem is gone.
    
    3.  Be very aware of the environment that the kitten was raised
    in.  If buying from a breeder, ask to see the cattery....if they
    won't let you see the cattery, DON'T BUY!
    
    4.  Always bring a new kitty to the vet to be checked....I suggest
    within the first week or two.  This way your vet gets to see the
    new kid before it gets sick. (ideally)
    
    5.  Always isolate new comers from current residents.  Some "problems"
    can be hidden quite well, if a breeder wants to.  Problems like
    ear mites and fungus are alot easier to "clean-up" on one cat than
    many.
    
    6.  Make sure your informed about the breed your buying, and question
    the breeder.  
    
    Any other ideas on what a buyer can do to protect themselves???
    
    purrs
    cin...who remembers the line...let the buyer beware!
    
    

    And if you live near North Grafton, call on me.
    
    I second Deb's suggestion to coat the pill with butter.  Give it
    a liberal coating to help disguise the bitter taste.  Worked for
    us.
    
    /Roberta
    

    Cin, you bring up some great points in .38!  It is so important
    to research a breeder and interrogate (probably a bad choice of
    wording) them with questions as they do the buyer.  There has to
    be a good working relationship on both sides.  I spoke with many
    breeders while researching Ragdolls and although most were nice,
    none of them were as open, honest, and trusting as the one I chose.
    It is the buyer's right to know how the breeder houses her cats,
    what type of care they receive, what the contract states, and
    most important, how much they know about their chosen breed.  I
    think that the two personalities just have to click.  For example,
    a very conservative person probably wouldn't feel comfortable doing
    business with a breeder who thinks nothing of throwing a few swear
    words into the phone conversation (like my breeder did; she was
    hysterical with some of the stories she shared).  Another person
    might have been taken aback with such a casual attitude.
    
    This is a great discussion and I've learned from it.  Thanks.
    

    Cin,
    
    I think you're right on all counts.  Unfortunately, when buying
    a purebred, too many consumers don't really know *what* to be
    looking out for.  They have no awareness of the potential pit-
    falls until it's too late.  Buyers do have an obligation to be
    informed, though an uninformed buyer does not abdicate the
    breeder of their responsibility.
    
    Donna

    I agree, Donna, but, just likes there are good and bad used car
    sales persons, there are good and bad breeders.  
    
    The best way for a buyer to protect themselves is to be informed.
    
    You wouldn't think about buying a major appliance or a car or other
    large investment without checking around a little....the same goes
    for breeders.  I mean buying a kitten is not only an investment
    monitarily, but also emotionally.  I think a person would want to
    be even more informed.
    
    The bad breeders are there because buyers buy on impulse.
    
    Be cautious!
    cin
    

    I think that some very good points have been made.  First of all,
    let me say that I had forgotten all about the fact that Frito had
    been limping when Chris picked him up.  That does change things
    a bit.  But, how much of the vet bills were directed towards the
    limp?  I don't remember.
    
    I kinda got off on a tangent in my earlier reply and may not have
    stated what I intended too.  What I was trying to say is that Chris
    would probably have to decide between several options, but that
    her breeder would probably not willingly pay the vet bills, and reimburse
    her fees for Frito, and give another free kitten.  She would probably
    not willingly do all three.  She would have to be forced to do so
    through the courts.  I detected a note of reluctance on Chris's part
    to go through with a court battle.  As an earlier reply stated,
    she has been through so much already.  I do sympathize with her.
    She bought a kitten with good faith, and now she is having nothing
    but heartache.
    
    The breeder in this case was not being fair to Chris when she let
    the kitten go with a limp.  I don't remember if the kitten was sneezing
    at the breeders house or not, if it was, it should never have been
    let go.  Moving to a new environment is stressful enough for a kitten,
    if the kitten is harboring anything, the stress will bring it out
    full force.  I have to agree that the breeder wasn't acting in a
    responsible manner when she sold this kitten.  Unfortunately there
    are breeders like that out there, kitten buyers do need to arm
    themselves with a bit of knowledge before they put out a bunch of
    money.  It doesn't please me that there are breeders out there like
    that.  It shines a bad light on the responsible breeders.
    
    I don't know what the solution is to the problem of whether the
    buyer should beware or not.  So far there is no way to police catteries
    and make sure that everyone is on the up and up.  I am not sure
    that there is anyway to warn buyers either, other than with this
    type of discussion.
    
    One thing I am really proud of is that this is a very emotional
    topic, one that could produce alot of hard feelings, but so far
    the discussion has been great! No attacks and such.  I think that
    we Feliners have come a long way and we should be proud of it!
    
    Jo
    

    
    
    I went to the vets during lunch time and I gave them back the
    Tribrissen Pills and in return they gave me Clavamox which is
    a liquid :-). I'm planning on calling the breeder tonite and
    tell her the "scoop" on Frito.  Thanks so much everyone for
    the advice and help.  Believe me it helped!  When I do
    talk to her tonite I am going to ask for some reimbursement
    for the vet bills.  I'm just going to tell her that I don't
    feel that I should have to pay for the bills since I paid
    good money for a cat that should not have been this sick.
    I will be reasonable and only ask for her to pay for the medicine
    and follow-up visits.  I will not expect her to pay for the
    first office visit because wether Frito was sick or not I would
    have taken him to the vet just for a check-up.  I am still going
    to give Frito 10 days to get better on the new medicine and
    I hope he does get well because he's a real cutie but if he doesn't
    i'm going to feel terrible but will have to give him back to
    the breeder.  I will let you know how it goes with our conversation.
    I hope it goes well and there is no hard feelings.  
    
    
    Chris

    Chris, good luck with Frito.  I will be away from the office for
    a week and won't be able to check in with you to see what is happening.
    I have had good luck with Clavamox.  I think you will too.
    
    Jo

    Ditto on the Clavamox.  I couldn't pill Nikki when I first got him
    from the Humane Society (he had severe upper respiratory), so they
    gave me Clavamox.  I was able to mix it in with his food without
    him even knowing it was there.
    
    Can't wait to hear what the breeder says when you speak with her.
    
    Roberta
    

    Chris,  I agree with the note that says you shouldn't have to be
    going through this.  Please let us know how Frito is and how you're
    coping.
    
    I'm really hoping that this weekend is going to put you on the path
    to better things.
    
    Kate
    (Isis, Tarot and TC have their paws crossed for Frito)

      I just had to throw in my two cents on behalf on novice
    buyers.  I remember when I got Bumpy-tail and Mao I had
    little or no understanding of cat interaction.  For example,
    Bumpy was in a cage with another cat named "Spongy" (boy their
    previous owners had a thing for wierd names) and at the time
    I had no idea that unless the cats were housemates to begin
    with, they never would have tolerated each other in such close
    quarters.  In fact, Bumpy was totally comfortable with Mao who
    was 5 months old at the time.  If I had known that Bumpy and
    Spongy were housemates I would have felt obligated to take
    both of them together.  And this was after having had a cat
    for 1 1/2 yrs. (Kathryn who died)
    
      I'm getting carried away.  Anyway, the point is that new
    cat owners are very naive.  I can't believe how much I've
    learned in the 9 years I've had my crew.  Its perfectly
    reasonable for a novice buyer to take the breeder's word that 
    "Its just a little sprain", the breeder is the "expert".  And why 
    shouldn't the kitten sneeze?  I sneeze once in a while, it 
    doesn't mean that I"m sick.  
      See what I mean.....???
    
      About the only thing a new cat owner can do is read up and 
    take a friend along who is knowledgeable about cats.
    
      Nancy DC
    

    But, would you blieve the used car salesperson who told you the
    car was only driven on Sundays by a little old lady???  
    
    Just like any other business, there are reputible and not so reputible
    breeders, pet shops, etc.  
    
    I think if we expect that all breeders are going to be honest, were
    fooling ourselves.  Some people are in the game just for the
    money...how their making any, I can't understand, cause I certainly
    don't, but that's another thing.  Those people are going to be like
    the unreputable dealer in any other business.  
    
    The only way for the consumer not to be taken advantage of is to
    be knowledgable about what their buying.  I often think that people
    would do more research on a major appliance, used car, or other
    material thing their buying than they will bother to do for a living
    thing, and that bothers me.  A kitten will live longer than most
    other major purchases will last....what's so wrong with taking a
    little time and doing a little research.  I don't happen to think
    that "I've never owned a cat before" is a good excuse.  There's
    plenty of information available out there even if you just visit
    the library.  
    
    I try to give as much information as possible to people who are
    buying my kittens.  I try to screen people very carefully, and pick
    good homes.  Not every breeder is like me.  
    
    I guess I'm trying to put the responsibility on becoming informed
    on the person whose going to suffer the most if their not...the
    buyer.  
            
    
    Purrs
    cin
    
    

    I'm really in strong agreement with Cin on the issue of
    the buyer taking the time to educate themselves about the
    product they are about to buy. (the same way I think people
    should take the time to learn how to use NOTES, but I
    won't bore you with my personal soapbox on that).
    It's not like you're spending a mere $25 after all.  It seems
    that the cost of a purebred may run from $100-300.  I don't
    think it unreasonable to suggest that a buyer is under some
    obligation to find out what they are getting into.  I wouldn't
    buy anything of this value without shopping around and doing
    some research. 
    
    Donna

    
    
            I like this I'm in agreement with both ideas :^).  However
    I have to throw in another view point.  No, I personally do not
    think that the buyer should have any weight of responsibilty as
    knowing alot about all kinds of things...  geez I can't seem to
    get my words out today ...
    
    
    
             Anyway I know there are quite alot of "novice" cat owners
    who have always had their hearts set on a certain look (Persians,
    Siamese, etc....)  They are not concerned with doing "research"
    (they know the basics) all they are concerned with is getting the
    kitty of their dreams and give it lots and lots of love.  They are
    not concerned with is the little kitten sociable, showing symptoms,
    or are all of his markings perfect.  They don't care all they want
    is that kitten to love and they'll make do with it.  Of course no
    they do not intend on getting a sick kitten because of the $$'s
    they shelled out for this little furball.  If this doesn't make
    any sense I'm sorry I am having one of those days...  big time.
    
                                                                   
          kim

    Just got back from a week away from the office and am wondering
    how Frito is doing.  Any news?   I hope that the Clavamox did the
    trick for him.
    
    I agree with Cin that it is important for the new owners to do some
    research before plopping down $300+ for a kitten.  It is also important
    for the breeders to realize that a buyer may be a "novice cat owner"
    and may need some additional help and guidance from them.  But,
    the fact of the matter is, some breeders don't care about the future
    of the kitten, they just want to get the kitten sold and pocket
    the money.  Hopefully, Frito's breeder isn't one of those.
    
    Jo

    
    
    hi,
    
    I took Frito to the vet's on Sat. and his fever is down and the
    Clavamox did the trick, so far.  The Clavamox had emptied on Sat.
    nite so I was crossing my fingers and watching Frito.  when the
    Amoxicillan emptied the next day he was sick (depressed is more
    like it) and I had to take him right back to the doctors.  But
    it's Wednesday now and Frito is doing really well.  He sneezes
    from time to time but the vet said that he'll be doing that for
    the rest of his life.  He's very alert and hyper.  He's acting
    like a kitten should act.  Yesterday though, he had vomited on
    the bathroom floor.  My mother found it and I guess Frito tried
    to cover it up with newspaper so noone would see it.  So, so far
    so good.  I'm going home for lunch to check up on him.  He likes
    my dog's food and i've caught him eating it so I think that's why
    he vomited.  I'm keeping an eye out for him.
    
    Actually, before I bought Frito, I purchased a Persian book and read
    the whole thing.  But, that didn't make me learn everything about 
    Persian's.  I really should have been more prepared and knowledgable
    about Persians.  I guess it's because i've never had a cat before
    and always wanted one and I finally got to have one.  I jumped the gun
    a little!  Well, we learn from our mistakes, at least I do! :-)
    
    Take care,
    chris
    
    P.S.  How is everyone else's kitties doing?  I hope they're all
    healthy!

    I glad to hear Frito's doing better.  Just in case, I
    should mention that cats can't live on an exclusive diet of dog
    food -- it lacks some nutrient they need and bad stuff happens,
    like blindness, I think.  Or worse.  I don't mean that a little nibbling
    is a problem, of course.
    

    
    
    Hello,
    
    I couldn't find my entry "Fit to be tied" for the longest time.  Seemed
    that Clavamox did do the trick.  The Vet said that his sneezing is
    something that we're going to have to get use to because he'll be doing
    that for the rest of his life.  
    
    Regarding the breeder :  ~~:-|  (~~ means FLAMES!)
    
    I gave her a copy of the letter from the vet's saying all the stuff
    wrong with Frito.  It's been weeks now (I've been to Florida and
    back!) and I haven't heard a word from her.  No phone call, no
    letter, like she PROMISED.  Well, she's definatley in this for
    the $$ and not for the cats.  I'd like to meet her in a dark alley!
    ;-)  FLAME OFF...
    
    The only thing that i'm concerned with now is that the vet said  that
    Frito does not clean himself and cats usually do that.  I have to
    clean out his ears for him but last nite I noticed him cleaning his
    paws.  Is this a good sign or am I in trouble?  Frito is  8 months
    old.  I will be getting him neutered by the time he's 9 months.
    
    -cj

    re: .56
    
    Often a cat which has been (or still is) sick will not groom
    themselves.  He should start grooming more as he gets better.
    When we got Tristan he was a mess, with fleas, ear mites and
    coccidiosis.  It was months, maybe more, before he really
    started taking good care of his grooming chores.  Now he's a
    real beauty and is cleaner than either of our other cats.
    Keep hope -- Frito should start caring more about grooming as
    he starts to feel better.
    
    It's too bad about the breeder...  It's hard to deal with the
    fact that others don't care about animals like we do.
    
    Good luck,
    Karen, Tristan, Tenzing and Max.

    Glad to hear that Frito is doing better.  Holly has a case of
    the permanent sneezes, since she's probably a carrier of a 
    respiratory infection (Sweetie gets vaccinated at 6 months
    intervals instead of just yearly because of this), and it isn't
    really a problem for her.
    

    Why would Frito sneeze for the rest of his life?  Glad he's doing
    better; but not surprised that it turned out the way it did with
    that breeder--after having read the whole story.
    
    Karen  another-cat-mom-who-knows-only-my-own-experiences
    

    Glad to hear about Frito getting better.  You should look at his
    paw grooming as a good sign!  As he feels better he will start doing
    more and more.
    
    That breeder did turn out to be a flake.  Maybe her conscience will
    get the better of her and you will hear from her soon, but it doesn't
    sound like it.  I am just glad that Frito is doing better.
    
    Jo

    Re: .59
    
    about sneezing ad infinitum.  My vet said I'd notice slight
    symptoms of a "cold" from Holly most of the time, off and on.
    It has to do with her being a resp. inf. carrier.  What actually happens
    is that her eyes have a slight tendency to water and she sneezes
    fairly rarely.
    

    Chris,
    
    As far as having to clean Frito's ears, this is something that you
    may always have to do.  Because of the amount of hair and the ear
    placement on many persians, even if they try, they can't get the
    insides of their ears clean.
    
    Unfortunately, persians require much more human care than "regular"
    cats, and most breeds.  
    
    If you'ld like any other grooming/care tips for persians, give me
    a call.  You got my number.
    
    good luck
    cin
    
    

    Chris,
    
    I agree with Cin about them ears.  He really can only clean the
    outside, and that's not the part that gets dirty!
    
    Honey does an excellent job keeping Chauncey's and Julie's ears
    clean...too bad they don't return his favour!!
    
    Maybe Frito needs a little Dorito!!
    
    Mary