Conference misery::feline_v1

    I don't really have any advice to offer you, but I certainly can
    emphasize.  My cat is exactly the same way.  He is an indoor cat
    and he has so much love to give but then all of a sudden, for no
    apparent reason, he just attacks me.  I have actually had to go
    to the emergency room for stitches on my lip because he bit me so
    badly.  We were able to have him neutered when he was a kitten and
    the vet told me that the effect would not be immediate--he was right!
    Evidently, after they are neutered, it still takes a long time for
    the hormones to be absorbed.  It has been about a year and only
    about a couple of months ago did I notice a significant difference.
    He still plays rough but he does not attack me unless I do something
    to instigate it.  There were times when I seriously considered giving
    him away, but now I'm so glad I have him!  He has so much personality
    and he's so funny, he makes me laugh all the time!  I really believe
    the secret is to get them neutered.  If I were you, I'd talk to
    your vet (again) and try to figure out a sneaky way to get him 
    tranquilized so they can perform the operation.  Good Luck!
    

    Sounds like your cat was really scared (read "terrified"). Maybe you
    can bring the cat in at another date for neutering and stay with him
    while the vet administers a tranquilizer shot?
    
    Deb_who_has_had_similar_problems_with_her_boys

         I agree.....don't give up on him.  Why not schedule another
    appointment for surgery, ask the vet for a tranquilizer you can
    give to him at home and then take him in?
    
    
    
    Bob

    I would try again as well. When I got my Pounce he was a
    frail little thing near death. He was never aggressive
    like yours, quite the contrary. When he was just 6 months
    old I had him neutered. I was very afraid since Pounce
    had been an orphan and was such a runt. I wasn't sure
    how he would cope with the surgery. Now, he is a little
    darling, and getting him neutered made him even more
    affectionate. 
    
    My other cat Nutmeg is the exact opposite. She's got
    a lot of persian in her and is the boss. She was spayed
    when she was about 9-10 months because she went into
    heat and it drove me nuts. Both my cats are house cats.
    
    Around that same time we took her to Kentucky with us
    in a car. Since I knew how much she hated travelling,
    the vet gave me little white pills - tranquilizers.
    I broke a 1/4 one up in her food about 1 hour before
    departure and she slept through the whole journey.
    
    The name of the pill was acepromazine 10 mg 1/4 a
    tablet for the dosage. Maybe you can get your Vet
    to give you some of these for him, and take the
    cat in later once he's in sleeyville. Get him
    neutered, be patient and you may well solve your
    aggressive cat problems.
    
    Hang in there!
    
    
    

Thanks for your responses.  I should let you all know that after all the 
trouble on Tuesday, the vet gave me some tranquilizer pills (for Moo!) to 
give to him an hour before I bring him in again first thing Saturday morning 
(tomorrow).  So, we'll see how it turns out.  

I haven't really given up yet, but I'm feeling that he may be better off in 
a different situation- like living wild and hunting bears in the woods.

Thanks again-

    We had the same thing with Mocha. He would bite for no reason at
    all. Since he was a stray to begin with, manys the time he almost got
    pushed back out the door. We had him neutered a month after we got
    him and his behavior stayed the same. (I blamed it on Tim rough
    housing with him, but then what do I know.!!) The final straw was
    this past August when he bit Tim in the arm and the next day Tim had
    to go to the hospital because the pain in his arm was so great. The
    doctor said it would be touch and go for the next couple of days to
    see if Tim was going to loose his arm or not. I finally put my foot
    down and insisted he not be rough housed with anymore, and about a
    month later we got a 6 year old spayed female Himalayan and BELIEVE
    ME SHE HAS BEEN THE ANSWER. Talk about putting someone in their place.
    Guess she thinks she is still Mama cat and rules the roost with an
    IRON PAW. Mocha has not shown agressive behavior since Ming came to
    live with us. I know she is the answer because every once in awhile
    Tim still boxes with Mocha and Mocha no longer puts the ears back
    or has pupils so big that none of his beautiful blue eye shows.
    
    I do think a neutered male has a lot more potential.
    
    Let us know how you make out.
    
    Barbara
    

    My first cat Pussycat was feral for some time before he came to live
    with me, and he had an real "attack" problem.  I was told not to bring
    him back to at least a couple of vets.  What changed things was
    the combination of altering and his then being given some hormone
    (I think) that starts with p, I think it was a female hormone. 
    The hormone shot(? pill?) was a one-time thing, tried after the
    neutering didn't make any difference.  I also found a different
    vet who didn't get upset when Pussycat went into attack mode.  I
    think the other vets had made things worse by panicing.  The new
    (and still current) vet really loves cats, so he is very patient,
    and that seemed to calm Pussycat down a lot.  P.s.  I wore a denim
    jacket and dungerees around the house a lot until things sorted
    themselves out.  The hormone shot was what really did seem to help,
    though.  And Pussycat turned into a wonderful cat.
    

    The hormone shot that Karen speaks of is probably the same hormone
    as Megace and Ovaban (which are oral medication).  Megace and Ovaban
    are brand names, I can't remember what the name of the hormone is.
    Ask your vet about it after the neutering, it will help calm him
    down a bit.
    
    Since he just gets more angry when you punish him, why not isolate
    him when he goes into attack mode.  When he bites you, tell him
    NO and then put him in a room by himself for 10 or 15 minutes (we
    have used the bathroom for this, there can't be any toys in there
    or he won't realize he is being punished).  Then let him out again
    until he tries it again.  Just a suggestion.  We have used the method
    to modify other behaviors and it has worked.
    
    Jo

    .8 reminds me that the isolation tactic worked with Holly.  When
    she first came to live with us she tended to attack sweetie.  I
    would pick up Holly and close her out of the room Sweetieand I were
    in.  After a minute of her heartrending wails from the other side
    of the door, I'd let her back in and she'd behave herself.  I probably
    didn't have to do this more than ten times.
    

    I will try the isolation technique.  That sounds like a good idea-
    will let you know how it goes!  Thanks.
    

    Every suggestion I would have made, tranquilizing at home, another
    cat, isolation, has already been made here.  I just wanted to say
    that I hope you'll try these methods before you throw Moo outside!
    Sometimes  you have to be super patient and super persistent and
    it pays off in the end.  Don't give up.  It'll be a helluva learning
    experience and very very rewarding if it pays off in the end.  
      BTW - Progesterone is a female hormone that begins with P.  The
    other one is Prolactin, however since prolactin is responsible for
    milk production (lactation) I doubt that's what was given.  Does
    Progesterone sound familiar?
      good luck - and keep us posted.      

      A recent issue of "Cat Fancy" (either Dec '88 or Jan '89..I'm not
    sure which..) has an article on this very subject. The people who had
    the cat that's featured in the article were about ready to quit...this
    guy actually would attack guests, furniture, dogs, and anything else he
    could get close enough to.
      The thing that changed him was the isolation technique.. As soon as
    any agression was noticed, he was ROUGHLY (Not so he'd be hurt..but
    rough enough to get his undivided attention..)grabbed by the scruff of
    the neck and the back legs--to prevent him from shredding the person
    who was holding him--and LOUDLY reprimanded as he was being transported
    to the bathroom. The bathroom had been arranged so it resembled a
    dungeon....NOTHING to play with, destroy, shred.... The first few times
    he was thrust unceremoniously into "THE CELL", he screamed and cried
    for fifteen to twinty minutes. Also...the first few times he was
    carried there he was a hissing, spitting, struggling terror... After a
    few weeks, he began to get the idea that his behavior was what
    triggered the loud words and the isolation in the dark, bare room.... 
    Slowly but surely the agression began to diminish....and one day the
    author looked out her window in shock...prepared to charge out the door
    and rescue the four-year-old neighbor's daughter who was hugging and
    petting this formerly ferocious beast... And she was informed by the
    little girl's mother that "This is the gentlest, friendliest cat they'd
    ever seen...." If only they knew what he USED to be...
    
    JM

    My Meggie, who came to me this summer as a pregnant stray, will still
    beat up on my two boys.  Whenever I see her being aggressive toward the
    boys, I always grab her and put her in her room to isolate her.  If she
    was fighting, I'll put her in the large kennel that I refer to as the
    kitty jail.  She absolutely hates it in jail.  Anyhow, last week, Meg
    picked a fight with Chauncey.  I hollered at her, and she ran up stairs
    to get away from me.  By the time I got to the top of the stairs, I
    found her sitting in 'jail' with her head hanging down in shame.  I
    closed her into the kennel, closed the door behind me and let her stay
    isolated for about an hour.  She's usually pretty calm when I let her
    out.
    
    Of course, she must figure that jail is worth it, cause she keeps
    beating up the boys!
    
    Mary

    Kitty Jail!  What a great idea!!
    
    T.K. could use a kitty jail for all the times I've caught him beating
    up on Nikki.  The spray bottle doesn't do a bit of good.  Hmmm...
    time to get the doggie kennel out of the basement!
    
    Thanks Mary.  You're a riot!!
    
    
    /Roberta
    
    

    
    Re: T.K.??
    
    	Hi Roberta,
    
    	What does T.K. stand for??  I didn't know there were two
    	T.K.s out in Note land!  My T.K. stands for That Kat!
    
    Re: Jails
    
    	I wonder if this will work on Cinamon, the 14 year old cat
    	who has just taken to tipping over trash cans!
    
    	karen

    T.K. stands for Tabby Kitty.  Couldn't think of a good name for
    him and just called him Tabby Kitty then shortened it to T.K.  The
    name really fits him!
    

    Jail, did someone say Kitty Jail - I just happen to still have a
    full size "Kitty Jail" for sale!
    
    E.T.

    Well, Moo was neutered on Saturday morning.  The tranquilizers helped
    a little, and so did me being there to put him in the chamber used
    for the anaesthetic.  It was over very quickly, and he spent the
    entire day sleeping once he found a comfortable spot.
    
    Yesterday he was relatively well behaved and purred most of the time.
    I used the isolation technique once, successfully.  It's still too early
    to tell, but he seems a LOT quieter than his usual self.  Your notes
    really helped me to be patient with Moo and not give up.  Thanks!
    
    Hopefully this is the HAPPY ending to the Moo ordeal.
    

    Well, aja is a recursive attack cat. She attacks herself and then
    punishes herself with a good beating!!!
    
    Last night she chased her tail, bit it, got mad at herself and started
    rabbit kicking herself in the throat. The more pain she caused herself
    the madder she got. The madder she got the harder she kicked!!!
    
    She ended up rolling all over the red living room carpet, poofing
    off little tufts of fur. She finally won (or lost?) the fight and
    hid under the blankets on my bed...
    
    Edd

    re: .19
      This doesn't sound like "normal" behavior (who's to say what's
    normal for a cat).  What concerns me is the fact that the cat 
    seems to be inflicting damage on itself and doesn't understand
    that it is responsible for what's happening.  
      Do you try to stop this behavior?  Maybe you could find a stuffed
    toy that you could get Aja to beat up on rather than herself.  This
    is rather strange.
      Nancy DC

    She doesn't do any real damage to herself (at least nothing like
    what she does to me). Apparently this feedback loop she gets herself
    into has properly functioning limiting circuitry.
    
    She's got Senor Mouse (ol' beer breath himself) to beat up, and
    he certainly takes his share of abuse, but apparently she likes
    a good challenge with someone of equal prowess.
    
    I guess. Maybe. I dunno. Maybe she's just stoopid....
    
    Edd (currently nursing a hefty aja-induced gash on his arm)

    I got a mail message explaining your enjoyable messages so that
    I would not worry.  
      Does this make you the "Dave Barry" of the feline world!
       Nancy DC
    

    Hey, who's spreading tales about me outta class??
    
    Not to worry, I'm the kinda guy who cheered this morning when he
    saw a squirrel run across I290, change it's mind, turn back, dodge
    an 18 wheeler, change it's mind a second time, sprint across 3 lanes
    narrowly being missed by 2 cars and finally making it to the 
    median. All this without Reeboks.
    
    I actually clapped my hands..."Nice going!!!"
    
    Edd

    GRAB THAT SQUIREL FOR THE NEXT OLYMPICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

how is Moo doing?  Any luck with the isolation technique?  Maybe you ought
to ask the vet about that shot with the female hormones?  maybe that would
help to curb his behavior?  

Holly