Conference misery::feline_v1

    You could try caging for a short time (a week or so) with the box
    inside the cage.  Or confine the pus to the bathroom with no rugs
    and the box & food & water.  Sort of start all over like she was
    a kitten.  Also, have you had the Vet check her out to see that
    she doesn't have an infection of some type?  Is something stressing
    her out that is new and different around the house?
    
    Good luck,
    
    E.T.

    Is this something that Mouse has always done, or just since you
    have moved?
    
    I agree with ET both about trying confinement and getting Mouse
    to a vet for a checkup.  If it's just the stress from having moved,
    the vet may be able to give her some medication to relieve her nerves
    which could help the box situation.
    
    	-Nancy

re .0    
    
>    	............. I've tried every brand of litter on the
>    	market, newspaper (suggestion from earlier note), and
>    	even potting soil. I've varied the amounts of litter 
>    	used, the frequency of changing the box ... 

My first inclination is to think that perhaps you've tried too
many different things too quickly.  You don't say how long ago
Mouse's problem began.  Did it begin with the move or before?
Can you tell us anything about the circumstances under which it
first occured?

The first order of business, I think, for any cat that is relieving itself
outside of their litter box is a trip to the vet for a urine sample.  I would
not presume this to be a behavior problem.  I would have the urine cultured
to check for the presence of bacteria.  Call your vet to ask how they would
like you to proceed with this.

Donna    

    Black Thunder the Wonder Kitty had this same problem.
    
    I read all the notes and tried all the remedies.  
    
    The ones that worked for me are.....
    
    	1.  The infamous aluminum foil.
    
    	2.  Watching Thunder like a hawk and GENTLY placing her in
    	    kitty box whenever she looked like she needed to use it.
    
    	3.  Using a special spray from the vet to de-odorize the carpet
    	    in the soiled areas.
        
    	4.  Scooping out the kitty boxes on a twice daily basis.
    
    Once in a while she needs to be reminded  but she is doing 100%
    better.  It just took a lot of patience (and love).
    
    Good luck.  It sounds like you love your kitty enough to try all
    the remedies before you give up.
    
    Sandi (Lightning, DejaVu, & Thunder's mom)
    
    

Some cats can be very possessive of the cat box and will make it difficult
for any other cat to use their box.  I would suggest you have a box for
each cat, and try confinement of the troublesome cat, along with her
own box, until she knows it is all hers.  then I would leave her box
in one place, use the same litter (try an unscented one), and see if
that helps.  You should be able to gradually let the cat roam the house
for longer periods of time before closing her up in the room with the
cat box again.  For the first few days, make sure the other cat does
not get a chance to mark her cat box...and don't let the troublesome
cat roam loose in the house unless you are willing to WATCH her and
her interaction with the other cat....no reading a book or watching
T.V. - you need to catch her BEFORE she marks and move her to her box
EVERY time you see her looking like she will use the rug.  This is
an excellent time for play with a kitty teaser or something.  Once
both cats have identified THEIR "place", the problem may go away.

As previously mentioned, some cats are also extremely picky about
how clean the box is - scooping twice a day is required by my brood.

    When I lived in the dorm/apartment with 3 other girls, scooping
    out the box was mandatory - just for ourselves (Nippa had a BAD
    stinky problem when she was very young).
    
    So if you start scooping out the box, I wanted to suggest something
    so you can avoid the problem we had.  
    
    When she saw us scooping out the box, the next time she went, she
    would go, next to the box, and rub everything into the floor (no
    lie, she was, and still is a brat about this - to this day I can't
    change her box with her present, and I always have to leave a little
    something in the clean box, or else there will be a problem).  It
    took a while to figure this out, but when we put 2 & 2 together,
    well, it has not happened since.
    
    Is it possible she feels the same ass Nippa about 'her' box?
    
    M & N 

      I agree with all those who suggest the vet.  Every thing I've
    ever read says that failure to use the cat box is an indication
    of a problem - often urinary.
      We had a little problem with Dundee when he was a kitten.  When
    we first brought him home he was tiny and we had some disposable
    litter boxes (very light plastic) for him because he couldn't climb
    upstairs to use the other one.  After he was able to get around
    we dispensed with the 2nd box.  That's when the trouble began. 
    Much to my dismay I found that he was using the box for stool, but
    peeing on the piece of carpet under the box.  I was puzzled.  It
    was clear that he understood he should use the box, yet pee'd on
    the carpet in front of it.  I called the vet.  The technician
    asked me how many cats I had and how many cat boxes.  When I said
    four cats and one box she told me to set up another box.  She explained
    that Dundee was probably hesitant to invade the big cats' territory
    so he wouldn't pee in the big box.  Since cats don't use stool to
    mark territory, he could leave that in the box without problems.
    I set up a second box and the problem dissappeared.
      Good luck.
        I suspect its either the stress of moving to a new place that
    smells so different - she's trying to make it smell like home -
    or an infection.  I've also found that positive reinforcement works
    better than negative  - In other words if she uses the box of her
    own volition, or if you put her in there and she goes then make
    a BIG deal out of it every time.
       Nancy DC
    

    
    
    
      has she been fixed yet?


            

    	I really appreciate all of the quick (and helpful) responses.
    
    	A little background should have been provided - Mouse has
    	had this problem on and off for the last year and a half.
    	For the most part she would use a sheet placed underneath
    	and around the box; gradually she spread out her territory.
    	The vet checked her over and found nothing wrong, simply
    	told me to try various brands, etc. Each "new" product or
    	method was tested for about two weeks. The two box method
    	didn't work either.
    
    	Two methods I haven't tried are twice a day scooping (I
    	clean once a day and replace every 3) and confinement. The
    	cage will have to wait until a weekend when I'm home - 
    	she screams like a Banshee when confined to even the bathroom
    	and my landlord may accuse me of "child" abuse - he has 2
    	of his own.  
    
    	While I don't think there is any stress associated with the
    	move (she was great for 2 weeks just after), nor a physical
    	problem I suppose another vet check-in couldn't hurt. She's
    	worth it .... but boy does she test my patience!
    
    	Once again, thanks for the responses - keep them coming.
    	I'll let you know if any work ....
    
    	Heidi

    
    	Oops! Re: .8 - yes MOUSE was spayed at 7 months - she
    	had the problem before (and after). The most frustrating
    	part is she's not consistent. Sometimes she's good for
    	weeks on end ... other times its several deposits a day.
    	Sometimes she poops, sometimes just pees - it's not even
    	the same rug, or area, or room ..... I just ran all rugs
    	through the cleaners and 1/2 hour later she had already
    	marked 2 out of 3.
    
    	Re: .4    Dumb question, but what is the "infamous aluminum
    		  foil trick"?
                                        
    
    		Heidi

    Heidi,
    
    Could you elaborate on exactly how the vet checked her out?
    I'm always a bit skeptical of this as my female cat was also
    "checked out" by the vet who felt it was a behavioral problem.
    I got a new vet, who *properly* checked her out.  She was found
    to have alkaline urine with bacteria and blood present.
    Did Mouse's checkup include a urine sample?
    
    Donna

    Heidi,
    
    I have had VERY similar problems with my 2.5 year old.  I took both
    my cats (littler mate females and spayed) to the vet and he strongly
    feels that it is a behavioral problem and to try somethings before a
    complete workup is done on them.  They are rather skitterish and the 
    procedures would be a little traumatic for them.  By the way the
    Vet also has the same problem in his home.
    
    Any way here is what I have been doing for the past several weeks:
    Buying the cheapest kittie little available (i.e. Generic brand)
    and changing both boxes daily, with a soap and water wash.  This
    really isn't as inconvenient as it sounds.  And I am much happier
    doing it this way as I always detested "scooping".  I put in less
    litter than I normally did before since it was going to be in there
    for longer, more is not necessary with such frequent changes and
    the 25lbs bags still last a while.  I usually try to keep atleast
    two in the apartment at a time.
    
    Good luck!
                                                        
    
    Bonnie
    
    P.S. By the way I don't what the Aluminum trick is either.

    as far as I know, cats dislike aluminim foil.  If you place some
    where they are "being bad"  they arn't supposed to go there anymore.
    
    I have never tried it, and my theory might be wrong.....
    
    

When Rene's cats had a similar problem, two cat boxes didn't work - UNTIL
SHE MADE SURE EACH CAT ONLY GOT TO USE HER OWN BOX for a day or two - this
was done by keeping a cat and cat box separate for a week.  In her case,
it was a case of "power-play" dominance in which the "pushy" cat was
marking both boxes and the less dominant cat was then not using the
dominant cat's boxes....little puddles on the rugs.  After the cat
box had been thoroughly "claimed" by the less dominant cat and the
dominant cat had the habit of using only her own box, things seemed to
settle down.  Marked spots should also be really cleaned up - these
little devils have keen senses and are prone to return to the scene
of the crime.  

    I had heard the same thing about aluminum foil, but in connection
    with a scratching problem.  I even tried it with limited success.
    I tacked it up on the edges of the couch that the cats were scratching
    in the hopes that it would discourage them.  A friend of mine tried
    the same thing with her little terror - he just shredded the foil
    and then went to work on the couch.  She did evenutally break him
    of the habit, but not with foil.
    

    Hi--
    
    
    I used aluminum foil with Billie during the brief time she had a
    similar problem, and it worked for us.
    
    At that time, she would get right BESIDE the box, and very carefully
    pee right next to the box.  I heard about the foil trick, and what
    I did was to put the entire box on a huge sheet of it.  I shouldn't
    laugh about what happened, but it really *was* funny.
    
    The first time I did it, Billie came up to it, sniffed it, and
    tentatively put a paw on it.  The crinkling sound startled her,
    so she went to another corner, and tried the same thing.  This went
    on until she was sure that it would happen each time she put a paw
    down.  She decided then that she'd better get IN the box, but to
    get there she knew she had to step on the dreaded (and loud) foil.
    The first few times she used the box, she put one front paw and
    one back paw on it and hoisted herself in;  getting out she just
    took a flying leap to clear the foil.
    
    But the best one was when she took a running jump at it to get in!
    I think she was so distracted with how to circumvent the foil she
    just forgot about peeing on the floor.  She never did it again (knock
    wood).
    
    Give it a try--you never know.
    
    Good luck, 
    
    Jane
    
    

    
    re: 16
    
    Knock on wood, but for the last 10 days Mouse has been using the
    box regularly. I now change it every day, wash with warm soapy
    water and refill with plain clay litter ... so far it's been
    great. I have noticed that the other cat (neutered male) will
    head for the box as soon as I put it down, but I've been keeping
    him from marking it right away and that seems to help too.
    
    Well, today the new rug arrived so the real test will begin. In
    a few days I'll either be celebrating or Mouse will be up for adoption.
    
    Stay tuned......
    
    Heidi