Conference misery::feline_v1

    Donna -
    
    It sounds as if those cats were tomcats and possibly stray.
    
    I know it's hard to take especially since you saw blood, but my
    TK was a tomcat when he found us and I would often find him on my
    deck bloodied from a cat fight (this was before I could pet him).
    In all cases, he must have had either minor cuts or lanced his own
    abcesses, because by the time I got hold of him and had him neutered,
    he showed no signs of infection.
    
    It's sad and although I have 3 cats that go outside, they would
    never step foot out that door if I lived on a busy road or in an
    unsafe area.
    
    /Roberta
    

    Roberta,
    
    
    I don't think they were strays since I saw two of them with collars
    on.  I guess I think making sure my kitties are safe is just as
    important as making sure kids are safe. I can't stand to see an
    animal hurt when it so easy to avoid it.
    
    Just my view .....
    
    Donna

    Just my opinion too but I'm with you Donna.  I call my three babies
    *All My Children* after the soap on tv.  I also have two *human*
    children that I love the same way. 
    
    Every time I see a hurt (or worse) cat outside, I am so grateful
    that mine all indoor babies.
    
    Sandi (Lightning, DejaVu & Thunder's mom) (and Lisa, Lynda & Keisha's
    								too).
    
    

    My 3 babies too are indoor kitties.  I grew up having outdoor cats
    and, with the exception of the one who was away for 10 days, they
    never came to major harm.  I, however, once I was old enough to
    worry, never stopped worrying about them.  I was on my way home
    from work one night and saw a man stopped by the side of the road
    holding a dog who had obviously been hit in his arms.  I never did
    find out if it was his dog or he was just a compassionate animal
    lover but have never forgotten that sight and often thought about
    how I would feel if I came across my kitty dead on the road.
    
    Anyway, my decision was made long ago to have indoor kitties and
    so far, none of them show any longing to go out--even when they
    sit looking out one of the full length glass doors.
    
    Another incident that reaffirmed my decision was when a workmate
    was telling the story this spring about walking around his yard
    one morning after violent cat noises in the night.  He kept coming
    across pieces of a cat until he finally found the main carcass--
    partially eaten.  Turns out a fisher (member of the weasel family)
    was roaming the neighborhood woods and that is what got the cat.
    Another neighborhood cat met the same fate a few weeks later.
    
    My Melody, Melissa and Brittany have so many toys and get so much
    attention--both playing and loving--that I don't feel the least
    bit guilty about keeping them indoors safe from man and beast.
    
    Barbara

    I'm also a very protective Mom of 3.  I live in a rural area, BUT
    Coyote and Fisher's (like a wolverine) have been spotted several
    times across the street from my little acre.  It also happens to
    be a hunting area (hear guns frequently and see hunters walking
    around).  "AND" after seeing several wild animals (rabbits mostly) smashed
    to bits on the road, my cats only go out when I take them on a
    lead. 
    
    "ALSO", before my dog passed away last summer, I was told by the
    town police that if my dog crosses the street to the area where
    hunters hunt, she could get shot (even on purpose) and I would have
    no recourse.
    
                Now I'm glad I got that off my chest!

    re .1
    
    Roberta,
    
    Do you let those beautiful new Ragdoll babies outside?  I would
    be so worried!!!  Even in a remote area there is lots of danger.
    Fox, Racoon, Woodchuck: all can do major damage to your cats if
    a scuffle ever does occur.
    
    Jeanne (another over protective mom)
    

    No - the Ragdolls don't go out.
    
    If this is going to turn into another indoor versus outdoor topic,
    then this is my last reply.  It's my choice if I choose to let my
    cats outdoors and I think I know my area and if it's safe or not
    (Jeanne, this isn't directed toward you -- this conference has been
    awfully redundant lately).
    
    Can't we find something else to talk about?  I love my cats and
    they get the very best of everything.  A controversial issue, when
    discussed in great lengths by so many people with different points
    of view, can really get exhausting.
    

Neutered cats fight over territory too.  I am an advocate of "indoor-only"
not just for the cats' health (which is obvious), but also because, as
responsible adults, we owe our neighbors the respect to allow them to
live WITHOUT cats if they choose to.  Allowing your cats to roam around
your neighborhood is irresponsible and indicates a lack of respect for your
neighbors.  If you cannot keep your cats in a confined area that you
are responsible for policing, then you should not allow them outside.
I live with 4 of the finest felines in the world, but I don't want your
cats in my yard and garden.  I especially don't want to have to keep all
my windows closed to protect my cats from touching noses through the
screens with cats that carry diseases.

    All of my neighbors happen to love my cats.  In fact, I know that
    if my cats are outside and I have left the house for a few hours
    (they are always indoors when I am at work), any one of my neighbors
    will let them take shelter in their homes if they show a desire
    to come indoors again.
    
    I have never been in a position where the neighbors have complained
    about my cats.  If the situation ever arises, then I will cross
    that bridge at the time it happens.
    
    
    /Roberta
    
    

    Roberta is right!  This subject could be discussed til the end of
    time and no mutual agreement would be reached.  I guess we all have
    to learn to accept things we don't understand.
    
    Jeanne
    
    
    

	I disagree with the few that have asked that this topic be dropped.
    If one chooses not to be part of it,then they can skip this topic...
    (I do not intend to sound sarcastic...I just believe there is valuable
    information being conveyed)
    	I feel very strongly about this topic now more than ever.  In
    two weeks time I have had to place three beutiful cats in shelter
    because of some irresponsible owner. 
    	I think the more input in here, the better the chance of educating
    those that may not understand the implications of leaving cats out
    in the wild. Lets here more..................
    
    
    curt
    

    
    		    TO EACH HIS/HER OWN!!!
                     
    
    	Any cat lover will do what it takes to keep
    	their baby's safe.  Whether your cats are indoor 
    	or outdoor, is an owners prerogative to do what
    	they see fit.
                             
    	Just my $.02 worth (Although I'm an advocate for 
    	keeping them inside) 
    
    	Barbara, Ebony & Ivory
    

    Here's an interesting twist to the indoor/outdoor story.
    How about outdoor cats being a danger to indoor cats.   We've
    had an injury requiring vet care as the result of Isis trying
    to fight with an outdoor cat through the screen.  
      We have a rather bizzare window in the pantry/kitchen.
    (Its not really a pantry, it just looks like one and that's
    where the sink and cabinets are.)  The window sill is actually
    about 10 inches above the bottom of the window because the sink
    is in front of it.  This creates a little "well" that th cats
    can climb into in the summer when the window is up and the
    screen down.  There used to be a utility table outside near that
    window and one night Isis had a fight with a tom through the
    screen.  She ripped of one of her rear nails and got blood
    all over the counters before we got home.  (We'd gone out
    for ice cream).  I can't tell you how I felt when we got home 
    and found blood all over the counters!
      Another time I heard Mao making yodeling sounds which are
    distress noises.  I ran into the kitchen to find all three
    cats either near the kitchen table of looking out the window
    and a orange and white face peering in through the window.
    (Don't ask me how he got there - its four feet to the window
    and there's nothing to stand on!).  At any rate, when I showed
    up I broke the staring contest that had been going on between
    Mao and Orange&white and Mao dove off the window sill, over
    the kitchen table and all three of them started to attack each 
    other.  Isis got so upset that she pee'ed all over me and the hall
    rug!  Now these are three neutered females I'm talking about.
      The consider the yard their territory ( remember they only
    go out on leashes) and saw the other cats as invaders.
      I figure that when they couldn't fight with the alien cats
    they displaced their instinct to fight for their territory towards
    each other.
      Crazy, huh?
      Nancy DC
    

    On Christmas Eve I was up late wrapping presents when a cat fight
    errupted outside in our yard.  Two of my queens where so upset by
    the screaming that they laid into each other.  I had to break them
    up first and then go outside and break up the other fight.   That
    wasn't easy to do since they were not afraid of me and the hose
    was frozen.
    
    Very annoying.
    
    Jo

     Our male cat, Maxwell, goes wild whenever he sees another cat outside.
    It's really kinda funny to watch. First he makes a funny meowing
    sound and all of the hair on his back stands up. His tail puffs
    up till it looks like a pinecone. Then he runs around the island
    howling as he goes. When he comes back to the door, if the cat's
    still there he does the loop again. If the screen is in he'll take
    the time to hiss at the cat before making the loop again. Boy, if
    I ever let him out...
    
    The Doctah

    I want to start off by saying that I value all notes and replies
    in this conference.  You have all made suggestions which has
    helped me understand Nippa and cats in general.
                                      
    I also am trying to keep this objective, and not take any comments
    personally, but I have to express the fact that I am starting to be insulted
    by some replies to this topic.  I do not think I am wrong or bad
    or that I don't love or care for my animals because I let them out,
    and if they want to remain in, I am not going to force them to go
    out.  Yet many replies are suggesting this.  Granted the majority
    of the noters here are indoor advocates, but those who choose to
    let their cats out should not be critized.  Everyones values should
    be respected, whether we agrees or not.
    
    I love Nippa very much and have done as much as I possible can 
    for her and my other animals, and will continue to do so as long as I live.
            
    I just wish this topic could be discussed in a manner, like the
    rest - objectively.
    
    Michele
    
    p.s.
    
    I received a book on cats (As with my other animals - I like to
    read other peoples opinions, even the conflicting ones, so I can
    formulate my own opinion, and do what I think is right) and it
    was a pro-outdoors book.  this book went into depth on the breeds,
    and which one were suited for whom and what conditions.  It was
    interesting to see this in print. 
                             

    I've just read the replies about the cat's that see another cat
    outside and go beserk.  My mother's cat is indoor only and has the
    same response when she sees another cat in the yard.  It makes me
    glad that my 3 go outside and play with the other cats in the
    neighborhood.  At least they know that other cats shouldn't
    automatically be viewed as enemies.
    
    	-Nancy

Fellow Noters,
    
Let's all take a step back and remind ourselves to:

- Respect the rights of others

- Desist from rudeness and personal attacks

- Desist from implications and allegations that those who are not of 
  your opinion are irresponsible or love their cats any less than you do.  
  Anyone who reads this file must be aware that this is not true.  

Donna

    It's certainly not true that only strays get into those terrible
    howling battles outside.  My neighbor cats from each side get into
    these battles (outside my window in the wee hours).  The primary
    involvees are both altered, one male and one female.
    
    

    re .19
      I agree 100% about respecting other's opinions.  As I've said
    many times before, we all have to live with ourselves.  We have
    to remember that the other person has the right to disagree.
      And think about what words you use.  Using "value-laden" words
    like "stupid", Hypocrite, etc only inflame others.  Our purpose
    here is to inform, exchange ideas and debate.  
      Also, everyone thinks their cats are the most wonderful in the
    world.  That's human nature.  We all love our cats very much.  Re-
    member that when you write.
    
      I sincerely hope that my comments have not been seen as ridicule
    or insult.  If I intend to insult or to communicate anger I try
    to make it very very clear and otherwise I try to express my opinion,
    give my reasons for it, and still leave room for other opinions.
      Nancy DC
    

    re. all those offended.
    	
    	I in truth have not attempted to offend any, one person in this
    notefile by talking of irresponsibility, and neglect. If my previous
    notes (.11 and others throughout this conference) have offended,
    I apologise. That was certainly not my intent.
    	I do realise and respect those that do let their cats outdoors.
    Many do care about theirs cats needs and do have compassion as much
    as those that feel their cats should be indoors. My sole intent
    was to point out some of the negative aspects of letting their cats
    outside... In my opinion (and my opinion only *once again) the
    possibility something happening is high.
    	There is a difference too, in the location of those with cats.
    I know of many who live on farms in vermont that have plenty of
    land in which they allow their cats outside. I can understand this,
    though, I personally do not agree with it. My biggest problem is
    people owning cats in or near the city. Quite a bit of my problem
    is my past experience with several strays. I wish those that feel
    there is no problem leaving your cats out were with my wife and
    myself to experience what we had to. 
    	I do also have (because of the last paragraph) have difficulty
    understanding those that allow their cats free without thinking
    of fixing them... If everyone just read through this notefile they
    would see there is a horrendous problem......To close your eyes
    to it is a crime. I know many will disagree with this point, but
    I can not just close my mouth and sit back. .We worked with these
    cats all summer long trying to befreind them.... When we finally
    succeeded in bringing them in the house they were a bag of bones.
    I have never seen anything like it. And then to try to find home
    for feral cats. (even though they were better than many tame ones
    I have known)......... 
    	I think this is a valuable tool we have at our fingertips. This
    keyboard we have can convey information to thousands of people who
    may not know any better. We (all of us on both side of each
    conversation/debate) can educate here...            
    	Forget about our feelings of getting hurt. lets look at what
    is being conveyed.. Lets learn from it. It is an emotional issue
    as most are in the notefiles. I for one am not trying to belittle
    anyone else. I am trying to get a point across. And that point is
    this. Many who have written in here have very valuable points. Listen
    to them. Stop feeling you are personally being attacked. They may
    have something important to say..............
    curt
    

I think there are people who are still unsure about the subject and might 
be able to gain from the the discussions in outdoor/indoor notes.  

I have an eye-opening story to add to this subject that fully convinced me
that MY animals will never be allowed to roam.  If others can't or don't
want to keep their cats inside, as long as they are responsible and it 
doesn't harm others, I don't disagree (but I don't agree).  I guess what
I'm trying to say is to each his/her own as long as it doesn't hurt others.
It is the irresponsible cat owners that need to change their tune and have
their cats fixed, vaccinated, etc..
(disclaimer:  My opinion only)

A friend of mine lives in a very quiet neighborhood away from heavy traffic.
She was taking a walk one morning last week and saw two coyotes fighting over 
and carrying off the carcuss of a cat!  The cat was beyond hope so she 
walked on.  About a block later she met some kids that asked her if she had
seen their cat.  It hadn't shown up that morning like usual.  When she told
me this my heart dropped to my stomach.
The owners probably thought their cat was safe in their quiet neighborhood, 
but there is usually at least one thing that you don't think about.

This, combined with the beautiful white cat I saw on the side of the road 
this morning and the fact that my father kills cats that come into his
yard, has convinced me that my pets will never be allowed to roam.

(I certainly don't hold my father's opinion)

Becky

    Well, this is my last word and I am actually not debating in vs out.  I
    agree that it is a decision the owner makes and if the decision is
    wrong, the owner faces the consequences.  I have had good luck with
    outdoor cats.
    
    At any rate, going back to the original note, I think the owner of a
    cat has some responsibility to his neighbors.  My neighborhood has
    about a dozen outdoor cats and some cats seem to share more than one
    home.  At any rate, most is peaceful but on occasion, the night calm
    will be shattered by a howling cat.  When I hear this, I head outside
    and if one of the offenders is mine, he comes inside with a scolding. 
    If it happens again, he will spend nights in the house until he learns
    to behave.  In most instances, one howling incident is enough and
    usually, the warring felines make amends.
    
    My neighbors shouldn't have to put up with my cat if he howls and I do
    my best to make sure they are not bothered.
    
    Denise

    
    I have been following this debate, and decide to add my .02 worth.
    
    1. no mention was ever made about people who keep their cats indoors,
       unfixed.  Boy did I do through some sleepless nights when this
       happened with the people upstairs from up.  
    
    2. We couldn't open our windows in the summer because the stinch
       was so bad.  The cats were alowed to breed freely, and did.
    
    3. Many indoor cats are not vaccinated, and get outdoors only to
       catch and spread disease before they come home 
    
    This is not to suggest that indoor cats are like this, only that
    responsible and irresponsible owners come from both sides.  I have
    outdoor cats and they have never strayed or bothered anyone.  They
    have never picked a fight or come home with any kind of marks on
    them at all.  They are healthy, happy, and are more vibrant than
    any indoor cat I have ever seen (I know that most indoor cats are
    perfectly happy, I just have not met one yet).  
    
    There are four or five cats where I used to live (I left them there),
    and you would never know we had cats unless you saw them.
    
    So, I have to go with the to each their own, but when your decision
    starts to affect other people, it's time to do something!
    
    Sarah

    
    Boy! When I started this note I did not intend for such a heated
    discusstion to start.  As has been said in some previous notes,
    everyone is entitled to an opion and we can just all agree to
    disagree.
    
    Although I will never let my fully vaccinated and fixed babies outside,
    I suppose it's fine in quiet, relatively predator free area.  Nobody
    will ever make me understand how they can justify letting a cat
    they say they care about run free in a city enviornment.  In
    *my opinion* it's just asking for trouble and reckless.  Also,
    letting them out in a rural environment where it is common to have
    larger predator animals is just as reckless.

    Agreeing on this is just as unlikely as getting us all to agree
    on the best car, or the best way to raise children or the best
    qualities in a man/woman etc etc.  Let's all remember we read/write
    in this conference because we have one thing in common .. we love
    cats ... we just have different definitions of what that means.
    
    
    Cheers and Purrs to all,
    
    Donna, T.C. and Rocco

    RE: .25
    
    Sarah, you hereby have a standing invitation to come to my home
    anytime and meet 10 indoor only cats that are happy, healthy, playful,
    vaccinated, and a nuisance to no one but myself (occasionally!).
    
    I used to have indoor/outdoor cats and they were happy that way.
    I have seen happy cats of both situations, indoor only is my only
    option now that I have the Birmans.
    
    No Flames please:
    
    It is my opinion that people who have outdoor only cats cannot assume
    that their cats do not stray, fight, or become a nuisance to others
    since they cannot be there every moment to watch them while they
    are outside.  
    
    We have a very nice black shorthair cat in our neighborhood named
    Morris.  He is an outdoor cat and I like him very much.  But, I
    don't like the fact that he marks my garden and front door, fights
    with the other neighborhood cats in the middle of the night, and
    sleeps on the hood of my new car for warmth.  This is a problem
    I have with his owners, not with him.  He is a very sweet fellow.
                                          
    Jo

    So what did his owners say when you complained?
    
    Kate

    Sarah, I also extend an invitation to come meet the furry foursome.
    And you're right about indoor, unfixed cats.  I have a friend who
    knows some folks who believe in being "totally natural" to the point
    of not spaying their indoor cat.  (I wonder if its unnatural in
    their eyes to vaccinate too?)  Anyway, my friend, Mark, argued til
    he was blue in the face about the problems of not spaying and not
    breeding.  Eventually the cat developed something that looked like
    the mange in dogs.  When they took the cat to the vets, the vet
    said it was a stress problem related to the crazy hormone levels that
    the cat was subject to because she was not spayed and not bred.
    And you're right about the noise problem.
    
      We've all be looking at how we disagree on this issue so far.
    After reading most of these notes we seem to agree on two issues:
    1. Spay or neuter your cats
    2. Vaccinate
      We seem to disagree on the relative dangers of letting cats
    out and the effect of keeping the cat indoors on its happiness.
    Its good to see that we do agree on some things.
      Nancy DC
    

    
    re: 28
    
    He went to Russia for a one year assignment, his girlfriend kept
    the apt., fixed the animals, and we moved out.
    
    RE: all of the other replies
    
    I'm sure all of you who take proper care of your animals whether
    indoors or out, have nice happy cats.  If I were in the position
    of not being able to let the cats out, I wouldn't.
    
    Sarah

    I've to toss in my experience:
    
    My mob range in age from 14 (Nefertiti) to 7 (Silly) and all came to me
    off the street as stray kittens.  They all line up to go out in the
    morning (except in winter, when they hide under the bed and have to be
    evicted) and line up again in the evening to come in for the night.
    They've had to stay indoors only one year, and they wrecked the house I
    was living in at the time; they *hated* it.  And yes, I still worry
    that something will happen to them during the day, but there is no good
    alternative; I take the best care I can. I make it a point to only live
    on quiet streets where there are other animals, so my neighbors have
    never been anything other than friendly to my cats, I leave out a
    large bowl each of fresh food and water for them each morning, and
    they all have collars and tags that give full particulars including
    my promise to immediately reimburse any out-of-pocket expenses for
    emergency care. 
    
    The back yard of the house I rent at present is rather overgrown, and
    for the last two years a family of woodchucks has been in residence; as
    I think I may have related in another note, there is nothing funnier
    than to see three furry brown lumps stretched out together on the
    driveway enjoying the sun only to realise that two are tabbies and one
    is a woodchuck!
    
    My second-youngest, Skunkchen, was feral when my younger daughter
    rescued her from the trash dump behind a liquor store in Texas, and
    even yet she prefers to sleep outside in a blanket-lined basket on the
    porch, especially during the summer.  One night I heard an unusual
    amount of noise, looked out the kitchen door, and saw Skunk sitting and
    looking on with what appeared to be considerable interest as an opossum
    and a young raccoon sat on opposite sides of the food bowl sharing its
    contents!  
    
    						=maggie