Conference misery::feline_v1

    John,
    
    I try to stay out of Ragdoll discussions, but seeing how you haven't
    any other responses yet, I will tell you what I know.
    
    The first Ragdoll was the result of a Birman male breed to a Turkish
    Angora (white) female.  This information provided by a TICA Ragdoll
    breeder who is from southern California.  Opinion only ... when
    two cats of different breeds are bred together, the resulting offspring
    are usually called "mixed breed", why in this case they became another
    breed I don't know.  (There are other cases of two breeds being
    bred together to start another breed, Tonkinese for example, but
    I feel that unless the offspring can breed true, then they shouldn't
    be a separate breed.)
    
    Ragdolls feel pain just like any other cat does.  They will defend
    themselves when threatened.  The rumor I've have heard from some
    Ragdoll breeders is that the originator of the breed, Ann Baker,
    sold drugged food to all of her kitten buyers.  When the food ran
    out, the cats started acting more like regular cats.  I think it
    more likely that Ann Baker wanted a good line to get people interested
    in her cats.
    
    Ragdolls will shed just like any other cat.  They have the coat
    type of a Birman or Turkish Angora which is very silky and usually
    they will not mat.  Even the hairless sphinx cat will shed sometimes
    (their bodies have a very fine fuzz on them).
    
    If you decide to get a Ragdoll, talk to Roberta about reputable
    breeders.  She did alot of research before buying her two and she
    knows what to watch out for.
    
    Another thing to look out for.  There are definitely two factions
    of Ragdoll breeders, those that have franchised off of Ann Baker,
    and those who have tried to make the Ragdolls into a respected,
    legitimate breed.  Ann Bakers cats cannot be registered with any
    of the feline associations, only with the association that she herself
    has formed.  The other lines of Ragdolls can be registered in some
    associations, but CFA will not accept them.
    
    Also, not all Ragdolls have white feet, some of them aren't even
    pointed! If you like the white feet and pointed colorations, why
    not consider a Birman?  Much less controversy, easy going and beautiful
    cats.                    
    
    Jo 
    
    (I really was trying not to be biased)
     

    Hi John,
    
    The information Jo Ann gave you is correct as far as the breed history
    is concerned and the Ann Baker faction versus the registered with
    the cat associations faction.
    
    I own two Ragdoll kittens; a blue colorpoint and a seal colorpoint.
    The Ragdolls bred by the breeders registered with the cat fancies
    (CFF, TICA, etc.) come in three patterns and four colors.  The patterns
    are bi-color, mitted, and colorpoint.  The bi-color have white legs
    and feet and a white bib with the white sweeping up to the face
    to form an inverted V pattern.  The mitted have white mitts on the
    front paws and the back feet are white up to the third joint (the
    elbow) with the dark points (face, ears, legs, tail).  The colorpoint
    has dark face, ears, legs, and tail, with a lighter body color.
    The four colors are seal, blue, chocolate, and lilac (or frost)
    but the most common are seal and blue.
    
    Now let me tell you this.  My Ragdoll kittens are no different than
    any other kitten.  They feel pain, thunder around the house and
    get into EVERYTHING (so much for the calm temperament -- maybe I'll
    see this once they're older and neutered?), do not go limp in my
    arms, and hiss and swat at my two full-grown cats when they feel
    threatened.  The only traits that fit the description so far is
    that they are ALWAYS underfoot (and I mean always), and are crazy
    for people food.  They insist on sitting at the table next to me
    and sharing my dinner or whatever.  They are affectionate and love
    to be with their people.  They are also very sociable with visitors
    and I noticed less standoffish than any other cat I have ever owned.
    
    They are gorgeous to look at, especially the sealpoint.  Their coats
    are very fine and silky, like rabbit fur.  They do shed a little
    but not as much as my other two longhairs.  If you live in the
    Worcester area or feel like visiting, let me know and you can come
    over and see them.
    
    To sum things up here, in my opinion, a Ragdoll is just another
    cat.  Certain aspects of their personalities match the breed
    description, others don't.  Shelby, my bluepoint, has a completely
    different personality than Kelsey, the sealpoint.  Shelby is very
    sociable and hates to be left alone.  He is whereever we are all
    the time.  Kelsey is a bit shyer with a more independent streak.
    Again, they are CATS, not children or dogs in a cats body.  Ann
    Baker lost her mind years ago.  Stay away from her and the IRCA
    if you want a Ragdoll.  The breeder I got my cats from might be
    featured in the February issue of Cats Magazine.  I can also give
    you the name of a wonderful breeder in Oklahoma who has 2 litters
    due at the end of January.
    
    I agree with you, John, about the large number of cats awaiting
    homes in the shelters.  I was torn for many months agonizing over
    the pricey cost of two purebred kittens that I had wanted so badly
    for so long.  But in addition to them, I have 3 rescue cases who
    are just as loving and fun as the Ragdolls.  So I can justify the
    kittens easier because of this.  In fact, Tabby Kitty, affectionately
    known as T.K. (no relation to Karen Luby's T.K.!) is so mellow that
    he fits the breed description of a Ragdoll more than the kittens
    do!  He's just a big mush and really does go limp in my arms!!
    
    Guess I really went off on a tangent here!  If you need any additional
    information, just let me know.  But I've gotta tell you... once
    you see how gorgeous those kittens are, you're gonna want one. 
    People who visit and are not cat fanciers want to take them home.
    
    Feel free to call or write anytime.
    
    /Roberta
    

    A few more things I forgot to mention:
    
    - Ragdolls are listed as the largest cat in the Guiness Book of
      Pet Records.  They are very big and sturdy; the breeder's cats
      were huge.  Neutered males grow to about 20 lbs; Spayed females
      are around 12 to 15.  They are a slow to mature breed.  It takes
      them 3 years to grow up and obtain full color.  At six months
      of age, they are the size of an adult cat.
    
    - I don't know much about breeding cats and genetics, but what I
      do know is that for the breeders registered with the cat
      associations, the Ragdoll breeds true.  If you breed two Ragdolls,
      the offspring are Ragdolls.  The offspring can be any of the
      patterns, for example, my breeder bred two seal mitted cats and
      the offspring were a seal mitted, a seal bi-color, a blue color-
      point, and a seal colorpoint.  Ann Baker does what she calls
      linebreeding.  She breeds ordinary alley-cats for six generations
      to get the pointed cats and colors.  She says that this is the
      only way to get an authentic Ragdoll because without her breeding
      program, true disposition is lost.  She also maintains that there
      is no such thing as a show quality Ragdoll -- you either have
      a Ragdoll or you don't.  She sells solid color Ragdolls, bi-color
      Ragdolls (in *any* color) and the pointed cats with the four
      colors the other breeders sell.  Her cats are sold by price lists
      and her breeders give her a cut on every cat sold.  Her colorpoints
      sell for $550; mitteds are $750.  Outrageous!
    
    - I have seen full-grown, altered Ragdolls at many shows, and they
      do take on the mellow characteristics the breed is supposed to
      have.  In fact, many breeders have told me that once my guys have
      outgrown their kitten stage and are neutered, they will be just
      as mellow and calm.  There are times when they are sleeping and
      you can pick them up and they keep on sleeping; that's one thing
      I forgot to mention in my last note... once my guys are asleep,
      I can cut their nails or carry them around and they just lie
      there.  But when they're wide awake, watch out!!  They act just
      like any other kitten I've ever seen.
    
    - I don't care about all the controversy surrounding the breed.
      My kittens are pets, nothing else.  They are show quality and
      I might enter them in a show or two but just for the fun of it;
      makes no difference to me if they win or lose.  If one intends
      to breed or show cats, then I can see why they might have
      reservations about choosing the Ragdoll.  The breeder I chose
      has a supreme grand champion in her cattery as well as an
      excellent reputation.  She was even paid a very nice compliment
      at a recent show by a judge who breeds Birman cats.  That judge
      is the same person who gave her cat his supreme grand champion
      title.  If you are intrigued by the Ragdoll and their beauty and
      want a pet versus a show cat, forget about all the controversy
      the breed has been given and by all means, get one.
    
    
    
    

    John - you mentioned that the myth about Ragdolls not feeling pain
    because they have no fear is probably true.  My guys feel pain (being
    kittens and always in the way, I have accidentally stepped on their
    tail or paw a few times and they let me know it!).  But I remember
    when I first brought them home and how intrigued they were with
    Nikki and Chauncey.  They walked right up to them to say hi and
    were greeted with swats and hisses.  So everytime Chauncey or Nikki
    came near Kelsey or Shelby after that, the kittens arched their
    backs, raised their hackles, and "growled" (didn't sound like a
    growl but it's what they were trying to do at the time).  The kittens
    will still walk up to anything or anybody as if it is their friend
    (the vacuum cleaner doesn't scare them, for instance, but it also
    doesn't scare a lot of cats).  Loud noises don't faze them either
    nor do dogs.  My fiance let a large dog into the house once and
    that didn't bother them.  Again, there are a lot of ordinary,
    laid back, domestic cats out there so I don't think these traits
    should be geared only toward the Ragdoll.  My mom has a cat that
    is so laid back and gentle he could also fit the Ragdoll description.
    
    I think Ann Baker's literature is worth reading for the $2 she charges.
    She'll send you a whole package of information,  and her story reads
    like a soap opera.  I don't understand her breeding program and the
    way she line breeds the alley cats -- just know that it takes her
    five or six generations to get the pointed cats where the other
    breeders simply breed two Ragdolls to get another Ragdoll.
    
    Since I read your note, I have been watching my kittens more closely
    over the long weekend.  The only information I can supply is that
    they are constantly underfoot (to the point of annoying at times!),
    are always with their people, eat like pigs, sleep in the funniest
    positions and very soundly, and are getting bigger by the day!
    
    I also didn't do such a great job describing the 3 patterns; mine
    have the colorpoints of the siamese, dark face, ears, legs, feet
    and tail with a cream colored body.
    
    This information is probably way overboard but just thought I would
    enter it if there were any readers of this conference who might
    be considering a Ragdoll.  I know of a few more participants of
    this conference who own Ragdoll cats and encourage them to write
    in with their viewpoints.
    
    Thanks for starting this note, John... gave me the opportunity to
    brag about my guys!!
    
    /Roberta
    

    I agree with everything Roberta has said. I truly feel that she could
    be called an expert on Ragdolls as far as information is concerned.
    
    I have a pet quality bi-color mitted neutered male. He weighs 16
    pounds, and is approximately 2 years old. 
    
    He matts very easily, and hates to be groomed. We had a Saint Bernard
    when Mocha first came to live with us, and they got along great.
    Ragdolls seem to love all other animals. They can hold their own in a
    "disagreement". Mocha is very smart, catches on easily to what ever
    he wants to.!!!
    
    Ditto to liking people food. I warned Roberta about this before she
    got her kittens. Be prepared to share any food you might be eating.
    Any people food you put in their dish, forget it!!! They seem to only
    want it off your plate.
    
    We got a Himalayan as a companion to Mocha. Ming is 6 years old. Very
    dainty like the real lady she is. She has set her position in the house
    and they are great together.
    
    John, if you have other pets I think a Ragdoll would be an excellant
    addition.
    
    Barbara 
    

    John,
    
    I have a bluepoint Ragdoll that just turned 9 months.  He is a
    sweetheart but straight-arms me practically everytime I pick him
    up.  He prefers to lie on the floor, couch, or table, stretch out,
    and then let me rub him and comb him.  Unlike Roberta's kittens,
    Merlin is terrified of the vacuum cleaner and goes into hiding
    quite regularly, especially if we have lots of folks over.  With
    lots of encouragement, though, he is coming out of his shell and
    surprised me by sitting quietly on my nephew's lap this last weekend.
    
    He varies between being dim-witted and having flashes of brilliance.
    He is the only cat I have seen that uses his weight against the
    others.  The first time I saw it, I couldn't believe it.  One of
    the other cats started to play with him so Merlin turned his backside
    towards him so none of the hits could get to him (his fur is impervious
    to everything!) and then laid on him!!  Since the first time we
    saw this, Merlin has instigated fun and games many times only to lay on the
    poor opponent.  He currently weighs 11 pounds and has a HUGE belly.
    But when you look at his body, it's easy to see his cobby body shape
    lends itself to stockiness.                             
    
    His fur is like no other I have felt.  It is thick and luxurious
    and, I think, grows more beautiful by the day.  It rarely mats and,
    as I mentioned, he loves to be combed.  With his blue eyes, he is
    quite regal looking.  
    
    Speaking of the eyes,  nothing ever prepares you for the intensity
    of the blue.  I think both Roberta and Barbara will agree with this.
    
    Merlin is a great cat and I would get another in a heartbeat.
    
    If you have any questions, please call or send VAXmail. 
    
    Oh, by the way, I got Merlin from a breeder in Pennsylvania and
    he was worth the wait!!
    
    Keep us posted on your interest or if you have any other questions.
    
    Jill

     Re all..
    
      Hmmm....Amazing how rumors get things distorted, isnt it!!
    
      It seems that these cats aren't all that different from some others,
    but it seems that the a lot of the desirable characteristics that are
    common in many cats have become concentrated in the Ragdoll...
    
      I have a "rubber" cat, and he also likes to hang around me and LOVES
    to sneak tidbits off my plate. (He's my three-legged gray male that we
    got from Penny Houlden....) He happens to also love dogs, since he was
    the surrogate 'big brother' to a litter of Bassett Hound puppies. I
    actually think he believes he's a dog, except that he hasn't learned to
    bark yet!!
    
      These cats sound like fascinating little critters. I'm really
    intrigued with them, and will probably send for Ms. Baker's information
    so I can get more familiar with them. 
    
    JM

    Alot of the personality traits that Roberta, Barbara and Jill describe
    can be attributed to a very good upbringing rather than the fact
    that the cats are of the breed Ragdoll.  My cats would eat people
    food too, (if I let them) but that doesn't make them Ragdolls. 
    (This used as an example, not as a criticism)
    
    Purebred cats tend to be social as a rule, since they are born inside
    and raised with people.  Stray cats are often born outside in the
    wild and are raised by their mothers to learn to hunt and take care
    of themselves.  They are often not used to people and as a result,
    can be much less social.
    
    Jo

    re: .8
    This is a little off the track, but in response to Jo's comment
    that purebreds tend to be more social because they are born into
    human households etc., I have often wondered how much of Dundee's
    personality has to do with the fact that he was wanted and was
    born into a loving house and went from there to another loving
    household and how much has to do with genetics.  I have no idea
    what early life experiences the other three had.
      N
    

    Again, off track abit... I have three housecats and the Birmans.
    The housecats were all strays and are very affectionate in their
    own way, but they are sometimes aloof and independent.  They like
    people and do not run and hide when friends come over, but they
    are a bit reserved.  Winston was born in the pound and is the most
    timid of the bunch.  Monroe was born in the barn at my sister-in-laws
    place but received no attention from her at all (that is how he
    ended up with us, but that's another story).  I have no idea about
    Tilly's early beginnings, but we found her when she was about 7
    weeks old.
    
    The Birmans think that they are people.  If you sit on the sofa
    at my house, you will be swarmed by the Birmans.  They are affectionate
    to the point of being slightly annoying at times.  I think the
    difference lies in the fact that they were bred and raised as housecats
    and don't know any other life, not in the fact that they are a certain
    breed.
    
    Ken and I have been raising an orphaned Birman kitten for the last
    5 and a half weeks.  We have nursed her, cleaned her, stimulated
    her (if you know what I mean), and are now teaching her how to eat
    solid foods.  We have been the sole care givers to this kitten since
    she was born.  She and her mother are in a room together so that
    they might be able to bond a bit.  The kitten really thinks that
    I am her mom.  She runs out to great me when I enter the room. 
    She climbs into my lap to nurse and then falls asleep curled up
    in my arms.  Her real mom is just another cat to her.  Someday she
    is going to make someone an incredible pet, that is, if I can bear
    to part with her.
                     
    Jo

      Re .10
      Ahhh..Yes!! The joys of raising an orphan!! How WELL I remember it. 
    We've got a cat that I like to describe as a "miniature Maine Coon cat" 
    (Cause she's marked like one, has the looks and fur of one, but weighs
    about 6-7 pounds) That was found at abandoned at birth by it's own
    mother. Her home for the first five-six weeks of her life was a
    sheepskin in a Digital Christmas turkey box!! My wife used to take her
    to work with her and put the turkey box on her desk....have to feed'em
    every 4 hours just like a baby!! We were VERY fortunate regarding the
    "stimulation" thing...Our German Shepherd/Doberman/Greyhound female
    (I know....ALL three of those breeds are supposed to HATE cats..)
    decided to "adopt" this kitten, and she did the stimulating without
    anyone ever showing her that it had to be done. This cat is, as might
    be expected, a bit weird. Having no natural cat mommy, being fed and
    cuddled by two humans, and having a 75 lb dog for a surrogate mother...
    ..well, I guess I can understand...
    
      But housecats cannot be "stereotyped" as acting any certain way
    either. We've got three,and not one of them has the same personality
    as the other two. The orphan--("Bitch-Mew" is her name....NOT due to 
    her personality....she simply NEVER utters a sound except when she's 
    complaining (bitching!) about something...)is aloof if it suits her to
    be, but can be verrrry affectionate when SHE wants to. When she was a
    teeensy-tiny kitten, I used to hold her in my cupped hands and put her
    up to my face. She used to love to paw at my beard, and would Purrrrrrr 
    in a sort of tic-tic-tic-tic sounding way, and she liked to attach her
    lips to my eyelid and suckle....that soon got to be sort of painful, so
    i'd move her over to my nose. She still to this day comes up to me and 
    just very lightly will take the tip of my nose into her mouth and give 
    it a gentle 'love-bite'.
    
      Our all-white stray, "Miss Meow"( Julie named her...not me!), is
    Verrrry affectionate, and loves to climb up on your lap--especially
    when you're wearing black--and cuddle, roll, push with her front paws,
    and just have a great time. She still wants her "space" though...
    
      The third cat--the three-legged grey male--was raised with Bassett
    Hound puppies, and has taken on some of their traits. This guy licks
    you like a dog, purrs like a freight-train, has NO IDEA that all cats
    don't have only three legs, and LOVES to lie around on the sofa with
    the dogs--usually with one dog or another draped over him...
    
      Soooo.....I guess my point's sort of obscure by this time!! All I was
    originally gonna say was that cats come with ALL sorts of personalities
    and traits....(dogs too, for that matter...) and that's what makes
    having pets so much fun. We marvel every day at the twelve TOTALLY
    unique little personalities that we share our lives with....
    
    JM
     

    The main reason I wanted the Ragdolls was for the looks, not so
    much the characteristics of the breed.  Every cat has its own distinct
    personality, purebred or not.  I think that certain traits are
    inherited but most are learned, either by imitation or experience.
    In fact, every time I frequent a cat show and pass from cage to
    cage, my breed preference changes in a flash by simply seeing all those
    beautiful cats on display.  I've always wanted Ragdolls, but would
    someday love to own a Maine Coon, Norwegian Forest Cat, Birman...
    the list goes on!  And everytime I visit the local shelter, I could
    scoff up a handful of those cats too!  I'll always have a happy
    medium of both purebred and domestic cats in my household.
    
    I recently received a back issue of the Ragdoll Review which is
    a newsletter published by the breed club.  One of the members took
    it upon himself to interview judges in the different cat associations,
    asking them what they would like to see changed in the Ragdoll breed
    standard.  Almost all of them wanted the part about the gentle
    temperament and limpness taken out because they had handled cats
    in the ring that were less than loving and gentle.
    
    This has been an interesting topic.  And incidentally, do any of
    you cat fanicers out there know what breed of cat graces the cover
    of CATS Magazine this month?  My guess is that it's either a Birman or
    a non-typey faced Himalayan.  Whatever breed of cat it is, it is
    beautiful.  Definitely my type of cat!
    
    /Roberta
    
    

    re: .10
      Well Jo, if you do need a home for her, let me know!  I'd
    be most interested.
      Nancy DC

    Re .13
    
    We'll see.... I have already named her and like I said, we are quite
    attached to her.  Her name is Mysinhs Live to Tell, we call her
    Livi (or babycakes ;^}).
    
    Jo

    We took Merlin to the vet's last night so he could be neutered,
    and at nine months he weighed in at 11 pounds 6 ounces.  He howled
    all the way in the car (about 1/2 of a mile) and then completely
    relaxed when the vet picked him up.  (What a faker he is!!!)  He 
    allowed the receptionist to "ooooh" and "aaah" over him--she had
    stayed late just to see what a Ragdoll was like.  We told her about their 
    size, fur, markings, and colors as well as the original stories about 
    their temperaments.  When they took Merlin in the back, they asked
    if Merlin would like a "nibble" before having his food removed.
    Little do they know that Merlin would like LOTS of NIBBLES before
    taking away the food. ;-)
    
    We get to call at 4:00 today to see how he fared and if possible,
    will bring him home tonight.  I hope he's okay.  (You know how 
    mothers get. :-) )

    
    
      O.K......Now I know a bit more about the Ragdoll.
    
      I was looking through "Cat Fancy" again last night, and came across
    some more of Ms. Baker's stuff....
    
      At the risk of being attacked from four directions at once, I'll ask
    the questions anyway...
    
      What's a "HONEY BEAR"???
    
      What's a "NEW MIRACLE'???
    
    Without anything to substantiate my contention other than the info on
    Ms. Baker in this topic, my instincts tell me that these two "breeds"
    are the result of Ms. Bakers inept breeding/screening in her Ragdoll 
    program, and these are two of her mistakes that she's trying to
    promote.
      I don't mean to take anything from the cats...as they seem from the
    pictures to be really sweet looking critters....
    
    JMcD

    Wish I could help you here, John; however, the literature I received
    from Ann Baker didn't really get into the Honey Bears and Miracles.
    
    I loved your assumption that they were mistakes from her inept breeding
    program!  Wouldn't doubt that for a minute!!  She claims that they
    are highly upgraded Ragdolls.  It is my belief that she created
    all the controversy surrounding the Ragdoll breed and *her* breeders
    are breeding the kittens that she claims are overbred and don't
    live to be a year.
    
    There is an IRCA Ragdoll breeder in Springfield, MA.  I have spoken
    with her several times and she is very nice.  The only thing that
    stopped me from visiting her cattery was the fact that she wanted
    $550 for a kitten that was neither pet nor show quality (remember
    I said that IRCA doesn't breed for pet and show kittens -- as far
    as they are concerned all of their kittens are pets (but not
    necessarily pet quality)).  What I found interesting was this: 
    Her male stud is a Ragdoll; the female is a solid black cat.  Offspring
    from the litter she told me about consisted of only two kittens:
    a solid black female and a colorpoint Ragdoll male.  She also said
    that all Ragdoll offspring from these two cats will always be male.
    Makes no sense to me.  I told her that her price was way too high
    for my pocketbook and tried to negotiate.  Her answer:  Ann Baker
    doesn't want the Ragdoll kittens (colorpoint -- dark legs and feet)
    sold for any less than $550.  Keep in mind that $50 of this money
    will be sent to Ann as a royalty fee.
    
    I would still love to visit her cattery someday, just to look.
    
    /Roberta
    
    
    

    From what Roberta just said, my guess that the solid black kitten
    from that litter would probably be sold as either a "Honey Bear"
    or a "Miracle" with a hefty price to go along with it.
    
    I have a real problem with these people for selling unregisterable
    kittens for such outrageous prices!  The woman obviously has no
    show expenses (since the parents can't be registered in any
    association) so her only expenses are for the upkeep of the two
    cats.  She also has no association fees, litter registration fees,
    title confirmation fees, etc.  The only other fee she has is the
    fee paid to Ann Baker for the use of the Trademarked Ragdoll name.
    
    A trademark on a name does not a breed make.
    
    No flames here, just personal opinions.
    
    Jo Ann

    Spending a lot of money and buying from a breeder "a show cat it
    doesn't make."
    
    Obviously these people don't care if they can register their cats,
    that isn't everyones prioritity who buys a kitten or cat from a 
    breeder.
    
    I feel the Ragdoll breed has been bad mouthed in this notes file
    lets not start on ANY of the breeders.
    
    The above represents my opinions, no flames please.
    
    Barbara 
            
    

    re: .16
    
    I'm glad you  asked that question.  I've wondered for a while
    now what the Honey Bear and Miracles were.  Now let's see if we
    can get someone to call one of their numbers and ask!  ;-)  That
    way we won't be contributing to any more rumors.
    
    Merlin is home and fine.  He mrmrmrmrrrrrrmmmmr'ed all night long
    and acted in general as if he didn't know what he wanted.  He had
    some minor difficulty in sitting down, too, so I know his behind
    is sore.  BUT, he managed to come arunnin' when he heard the food
    being poured, so I know he'll be okay.
    
    Jill 

    Just to clarify a bit, I don't want to upset anyone.  My criticisms
    were meant for the types of breeders who are only in it for the
    money.  They weren't against any ligitimate Ragdoll breeders.  The
    legitimate Ragdoll breeders are in the same position that I am.
    Trying to squeek by from paycheck to paycheck.  I bet that they
    too have a problem with the other type of breeder.
    
    I was expressing my anger and frustration about the IRCA breeders
    and not the cats themselves.  Please, any of you who have Ragdolls,
    don't take this personally, besides, we might all be related through
    our cats! ;^)
    
    I vote for Roberta to call and get the scoop on the Honey Bears
    and Miracles! :^)
    
    Jo
    
    PS - yes buying a registered kitten from a breeder does not ensure
    a show cat.  Most breeders consider themselves very lucky if they
    get one show quality kitten per litter, and usually aren't willing 
    to let that kitten go to a home that doesn't plan to show it.
           

    I was seriously thinking of calling an IRCA breeder and asking what
    types of cats they breed to get these Honey Bears and Miracles.
    Geez... what will Ann Baker come up with next?!  She really is a
    strange woman.
    
    Anyway, I meant to say in my last reply that the solid color kittens
    from the solid color female/Ragdoll male litters are sold as solid
    color Ragdolls.  So I don't know what the Honey Bears and Miracles
    are a result of.  I do know that they sport hefty price tags of
    $750 and up.
    
    If I decide to call, I'll report back with information.
    
    /Roberta
    
    P.S.  I sent John McDonough a whole envelope full of pictures and
    a magazine article from the Sept., 1986 issue of Cat Fancy so he
    can see for himself what Ragdolls look like.  Don't keep us in
    suspense, John.  You have to let us know what you think!!
    

    
    
    Well I have a 16 week old ragdoll and I have to agree with most
    of the things I have read here. The deep blue eyes are incredible,
    the fur doesn's seem to shed (yet), she gets underfoot ALL the time,
    she gets into anything (including the gas boiler), she does feel
    pain, she is not worried by dogs (she put a 1 year old spaniel to
    flight), she is enormous for 16 weeks, she is cuddly and loving
    and a complete menace.
    
    She is called BANDIT, due to th facial markings.
     
    But she is adorable..
    
    Andrew Hoare
    
    

    Welcome Andrew to the wonderful world of Ragdolls. How nice to have
    someone on the other side of the Atlantic join in.
    
    I would presume by your comments about Bandit that she must be a
    seal point bi color Ragdoll like my Mocha is that correct?
    
    I would say the boys definately outweigh the girls in popularity
    at this point for the Ragdoll noters. Your Bandit is somewhere's near
    the age of Roberta's two boys, and Susan's two girls. 
    As far as ages go I think Mocha is the oldest with Merlin next and
    then yours and Roberta's and Susan's next.
    
    We will be anxious to hear all about Bandit and what lines she
    comes from etc.
    
    Again welcome
    
    Barbara

    
    
    
         I'll use one word to describe my opinion of them:
    
    
                  MAGNIFICENT!!!!!!!!!
    
    
        And that's only from seeing the pictures!! I'm setting up something
    with my wife to make a visit to Roberta's to actually SEE them in
    person....
    
       Do I want one???  Yeah, I want one, but since we have 12 animals
    already, it may not be practical.....but then again, Julie's the one
    who insigated the 12th animal.....so who knows!!
    
      

    How great to hear that your heart has been stolen by the Ragdolls.
    
    Remember when you get to Roberta's you get to look and touch only
    not take !!!!!
    
    Now we'll have to get you to see a full grown one. Ask Roberta to
    show you pictures of my Mocha, he really is gorgeous.
    
    Let us know how you enjoy your "close up and personal"
    
    Good to get feedback that is postive on this breed. Now we'll have
    to see what we can do to get one for your household.
    
    Thanks John, you made my day.
    
    Barbara
    
    

    
       Well, we finally got a chance to see them up close and in person!! My
    Julie and I were in love with these two little "charmers" in an
    instant!! 
      
       I did NOT try to steal either of them, but the thought DID cross my
    mind once or twice (;=}) The larger one...(Kelsey I think??) decided in
    his regal way that we were not important enough to spend more than a
    few minutes checking out, so he proceeded to saunter upstairs in his
    disdaining, aloof manner....and took a nap!! Shelby, on the other hand, 
    stayed down with everyone, but after a half-hour or so he got tired and
    went to sleep!! 
    
      We couldn't get over their fur!! It's more like an angora rabbit than 
    cat fur...SO SOFT!! And we didn't get that cloud of small hairs when we
    petted them that you get with most domestic cats...
    
      Oh well......Another item on the "dream" list....right along with the
    Dalmation, the new boat, the new...ahhhh....you get the idea!!
    
    JM

    Hi John,
    
    I really enjoyed having you and Julie visit.  And I apologize for
    Kelsey's aloofness.  He has really become a first class snob now
    that so many people have told him how beautiful he is so he only
    stays around long enough to grace you with his presence then retires
    to his suite for a much needed nap.  His manners are atrocious,
    I know, but we are working on him!!
    
    I hope one day your dream will come true and you'll own a Ragdoll.
    It was nice meeting you and Julie and refreshing to talk to people
    who share my intense love and respect for animals.
    
    Keep in touch!
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    I had the babies weighed last week.
    
    They will both be 5 months old this coming Saturday and weighed
    in at 5 3/8 lbs. (Shelby), and 7 lbs. (Kelsey).
    
    I'm eager to see how big they'll both get.
    
    
    /Roberta
    
    

    
       Roberta,
      Kelsey was simply being Kelsey!! What makes cats and dogs so special
    is the differences in their personalities. He wasn't being a "snob",
    just being himself. He scoped everything out...saw nothing that was
    THAT interesting to him, and went back to what was more important to
    him at the time--getting some ZZZZZZ's...
      Shelby, on the other hand, WAS interested...to a point...and he
    played for a while, got a few pets, and then proceeded to "rest" for
    awhile....probably dreaming about a cafeteria full of salmon, sardines,
    lobster...etc...
    
       They are adorable babies....
    
    JM

    I'm still not sure what the difference is, other than perhaps the
    method of breeding, between a Ragdoll and a Birman.  I'm sure Jo
    and/or Roberta will straighten me out.  
    
    As for cats, I just love my basic mutt-cats at home, shedding,
    claw-shells,allgeries and all....I'd love to show my buddies just
    to show em off, but Ashley's too hyper and Bonsey has his allergies
    (but his personality would just melt the judge's hearts I'm sure).  And
    I can't wait to get my hands on Freeway the Orange.  (kinda like
    a CalTrans worker, eh, Jo?)  ;D
    
    Anyway, still curious to know the diff.   I like to pretend I can
    tell cat breeds apart.  :)

    Don't worry, you will be able to show freeway in just a few short
    months!
    
    Good luck pretending to tell some Ragdolls and Birmans apart!
    Sometimes I can't tell them apart (unless they are bi-color, solid,
    or colourpoint without mittens). :^D
    
    If you are at a CFA show, you can bet on them being Birmans only.
    At a TICA show, the ones with front gloves evenly matching at the
    ankle joint, laces up the hocks, and no white anywhere else on their
    bodies will be Birmans.
    
    Jo

    So, Ragdolls generally have more white, and in other places than
    on their feet?  Do all Birmans have white *only* on their feet?
    
    It sounds to me like the colors are the distinguishing factor here,
    and the distribution (like Himmies n Persians) of.  
    
    am I totally confuzed by now?  You bet!  ;D
    
                                                          ---kim

    How's this for clarification:
    
    A show quality mitted Ragdoll must have *completely white* back
    legs and scalloped front mittens.  So you're right Kim.  A Ragdoll
    should (although this isn't always the case) have more white than
    the Birman.
    
    Also, I have heard from Ragdoll breeders that the bicolors generally
    do the best in the shows.
    
    One difference I have noticed between the Ragdolls and Birmans is
    the face shape.  Jo, don't you think that the Birmans have a rounder
    face?  I don't know what the look is for Ragdolls on the west coast
    although I know they differ from those back east.
    
    Maybe we should both send Kim some pictures so she can see for herself!
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    I don't know as even pictures will help.  I have a few pictures
    of Roberta's Ragdolls and one of poor Lovey (Birman).  I can't tell
    them apart....unless I look at the back of the picture where I
    wrote the names!  
      Nancy DC

    Nancy, telling them part is easy!  My Ragdolls don't have white
    feet!!
    
    Next time you look at the pic, look at the feet.  If they are dark,
    then they are my cats!
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Kim, yes, Birmans are only allowed to have white on their feet.
    
    Of course, some kittens occasionally are born that have isolated
    white (birman breeders term for white that isn't connected to the
    white on the feet) on the chin.  These are few and far between and
    cannot be shown (and are sold with neuter/spay contracts since isolated
    white is undesirable in birmans).
    
    Jo

    Kim,
    
    Where do you work?  I'm in SCIII and I've got a couple pictures
    of Merlin here with me.  He's a colorpoint, however, so he doesn't
    have any mitting at all.  If you would like to see the pictures,
    I would be glad to share them with you.
    
    Jill

    I am at Parkway Towers (don't ask me why its called towerS since
    we only have five floor--the first is only a little lobby--and there's
    only one building).  ;D
    
    My mail stop is WRA/E7--I'd go over but I don't have a car.
    
                                                         ---kim

    Kim,
    
    I'll get them to you.  I just ask that you return the pictures when
    you're done.
    
    Jill
    

    Certainly--I'm very good at returning pics.   :)
    
                                                            ---kim

    re: .41  I can attest to that Jill.  Kim and I swapped pictures
    of our kitties - she was better at returning my pics than I was
    of returning hers.....of course, I kept forgetting to show my
    husband who is just as nutty about cats as I am!
      Nancy DC
    

    Kim and Nancy,
    
    Thanks. Now I know they're in good hands.  Enjoy!
    
    Jill

    Oh boy!  Was I ever excited when my June issue of Cat Fancy arrived
    in the mail!  The Ragdoll article was very impressive, especially
    the centerfold.  The featured breeder owns Kelsey and Shelby's
    grandsire; too bad the pictures of the cats in the stud cages
    aren't closeups.  Even though my guys are of the Sugarpaw lines,
    it is amazing how different they look from the Mikyttens cats. 
    Guess I'm a biased mom cause I think Kelsey, Shelby, and their two
    sisters who my good friend owns are ten times more beautiful (and
    of course Jill Grafton's Ragdoll, Merlin; and Barbara Ives, Mocha;
    both gorgeous cats as well)!!
    
    

    Roberta,
    
    You better not forget Merlin or Mocha or I know for a fact that Merlin
    will go off in a huff!!  (Right after he has one more bite to eat,
    and then a little snooze, and then if he could maybe get a swipe at 
    Sammie just for good luck, and then maybe just one more bite,...  ;-) )
    
    I saw the magazine in a store but didn't buy it because mine is due
    any day now.
    
    Jill 
    

    Jill, you saw the magazine in a store and didn't even open it to
    see the pictures??  Boy, do you have willpower!
    
    Our kitties have more color and longer coats than the ones pictured.
    Let me know what you think.
    
    
    /Roberta
    

    Roberta,
    
    I'm not *that* strong!!  I took a peek and was disappointed that 
    they didn't have more pictures and that the article wasn't longer.  
    (I'm not *too* demanding, am I?)
    
    I got a chuckle out of the one caption that mentioned how
    much Ragdolls like to be held.  I'm going to cut that out and show it
    to Merlin on a daily basis.  He evidently didn't get the message from
    his mom.
    
    I got my magazine in the mail last night, and I'm going to go home and
    read it cover-to-cover tonight.  I can't wait.  I'll let you know what
    I think of the article when I get a chance to read it.
    
    By the way, it wasn't willpower; it was a matter of having two kids who
    wanted to buy me every cat in the pet shop (6 or 7) for Mother's Day.  
    I had to get out of there quick!!  (I was losing strength. ;-))
       
    Jill
    

    Hi Jill,
    
    Yes, I was disappointed too with the pictures.  Those cats do not
    have near as much point color as Merlin, Kelsey or Shelby.
    
    Yup!  About the only truth to that article as far as Kelsey and
    Shelby are concerned is the part about Ragdolls following their
    people everywhere.  They will let us pick them up and hold them
    for long periods of time depending on their mood...then something
    diverts their attention and they want DOWN NOW!
    
    Oh, well.  It was nice to see Ragdolls in the spotlight for a change.
    
    
    

    Roberta,
    
    <   Oh, well.  It was nice to see Ragdolls in the spotlight for a change.
    
    Yup, sure was.  :-)
    
    Jill
    

    Jill, now watch for future issues of Cats.  The breeder I got Kelsey
    and Shelby from is featured in an interview with the magazine. 
    She traveled all over the country this past show season and turned
    out some real champions in both Ragdolls and household pets.  Her
    chocolate bicolor got best Ragdoll cat of the year!  Her name is
    Linda Swierczynski.  I'm not sure which issue will feature her but
    it should be sometime soon.
    
    No pictures, though :^(
    
    
    Roberta
    

    Roberta, 
    
    Do you by chance know her the names of her household pets and
    what association she exhibits in??  I will have to see if they
    turn up in Happy Household 
    
    E.T.

    Hi Elaine,
    
    Linda is a big TICA shower and also does some ACFA; however, I would
    have to say that she shows more TICA than anything else.
    
    Some of the cats she shows in the HHP class are:
    
    - Stickie Situation (a short-haired, odd-eyed white spay)
    - Lottie Dottie (a straight-eared Scottish Fold who won the Morris
      Trophy)
    - E.T. (a pet quality bi-color Ragdoll kitten.  E.T. got best kitten 
      in her region this past show season)
             
    Stickie was one of the 9 finalists who went to California at the
    end of April to compete for some such title (as you can see, I'm
    not very good at this).  There might be one or two more HHP's that
    she shows but the names escape me right now.
    
    Stickie is her baby... she was thrown out of a car window while
    Linda was driving through Burger King.  Linda already had several
    cats at home and knew hubby was going to have a fit when she brought
    this newcomer in.  She said to a friend who was with her, "Boy am
    I in a sticky situation," and the name stuck!  Anyway, everytime
    we speak, all I hear is Stickie this, Stickie that, so look for
    her name in Happy Household.  I'd be interested in knowing if she's
    listed.
    
    
    /Roberta
    
    

    Yes, I think I may have heard of Sticky - not sure - did she show
    that one last year - it does sound familiar - I don't do any
    TICA but their names do pop up now and then especially around
    this time of the  year and later on through the fall when the
    end of season results start trickling down through the ranks!
    
    I will watch and let you know when I get my HHPCC yearbook -
    hope it won't be as late as last year!!  I'm curious to see
    how Katenka finished this year.
    
    tanx,
    
    E.T.

    Yup, Linda showed Stickie last year too.
    
    You'll have to let all of us know how Katenka finished.  If my 3
    household pets were as well behaved as she is, I'd be showing them
    too!  I commend you, Linda, and everyone else out there who is so
    committed to showing.  When your cats come out winners, it makes
    it worth all the hard work and dedication.
    
    

    Yes, I do remember Stickie - will try and find last years yearbook.
    
    I do know how Katenka finished, but will have to wait for the
    offical word from God before I say!  Katenka did very well
    both her seasons - she retired in style on April 30th with
    4 Bests and a 2nd Best, won her last Morris Trophy Sunday
    and Best of Best for that day.  I was so very proud of her!
    She has 12 for this season and about 5 or so from last
    season (11 shows last season) - finished last year 13th
    International in Happy Household and 2nd in the Northeast
    Region - she is some baby girl!!  I will miss having her
    with me - I had her with me for 20 months - almost every
    weekend - it's going to be hard..

    Way to go Katenka!!  Does this mean she is retired from her show
    career or just for this season?
    
    Stickie and Linda were mentioned in the June issue of CATS.  It
    was the National Morris Award Trophy she competed for in California.
    

Yes, Roberta - she is retired from showing - she, along with Yurii and
    Lara have entertained many folk.  I don't like to keep a cat out
    too long.  She does enjoy it, but I think she also is enjoying
    being home a lot!
    
    I will check June Cats - boy, I'm going to have to tie strings
    around my fingers to remember all this stuff!  I am wallowing
    in house fixing stuff - quite a relief from cat shows!  I
    really am getting lots done.  Got all the roll-up blinds up
    last night - will help keep the kids cool and the sun out
    this summer - am having both ceiling fans installed next
    week so that should help also.
    
    I thought it might be the National Morris - that's GREAT!
    I only participated in that once - I'm not too crazy about
    the way they go about it - 
    
    E.T.

    
    
    Elaine,
    
    You and the kids are going to LOVE the ceiling fan.  We have one
    in our apt. and last summer used it quite a bit.  It has two speeds
    and we rarely used the high speed because 1) It really stirs up
    them there dust bunnies  8^) and 2) It actually got chilly in the
    room.  When we turn it on, the cats tend to camp where they can
    get a direct breeze.  When we turn on the oscillating floor fan,
    they get right in front of it.  Escho is long haired and she reminds
    me of the stero commerical where the guy it sitting in a deep arm
    chair listening to the music of the flying dutchman, and the speakers
    blast so loud that his scarf billows out behind him and his drink
    slides across the table.  Or sort of like the Peppermint Pattie
    commercials _When I eat a York Peppermint Pattie, I feel a cool
    breeze_.
    
    BTW, do you know where I can find a copy of Cats magazine?  I do
    subscribe to Cat Fancy but can't find Cats anywhere. 8^(
    
    Have a good, restful, weekend,
    
    Roslyn 

    re: 58
    
    I can hardly wait until the fans are up!!! 
    
    to subcribe to Cats Magazine
    
    CATS Subscription Services
    P.O. Box 83048
    Lincoln NE  68501
    
    phone:  402.489.8845
    
    or
    
    go to your local cat show - generally, they having them around for
    sale and subscriptions.
    
    E.T.

    When I first moved into my apartment, my cat Ashley was terrified
    of the ceiling fan.  She wouldn't come into the kitchen for about
    a month until it was off--I guess the big spinning thing scared
    her for a while.
    
    :)
    
    kim

    re: 60
    
    My KoKo hates the ceiling fan also!  She would crouch and 
    run when she noticed that it was on!  
    
    E.T.