Conference misery::feline_v1

    Have you tried putting ctanip on top of the scratching posts, and
    scratching the posts yourself when the cats are nearby so they hear
    the noise and get the idea?  Are the posts you have tall enough
    and heavy enough to they don't tend to tip and scare the cats? 
    Are there enough of them?  My Pussycat was happy with one, but S&H
    need one in every room.  I never clip S&H's nails -- I wonder if
    cats scratch more to trim the clipped edges.....
    

    No!! A cat cannot get along without front claws outside.  If they
    are going to be outside they need ALL defences!  If they got close
    enough to the dog to "rabbit-kick" him with their hind claws, they
    would already be at the dog or other cat's mercy.
    
    We had bandit declawed in front when she came to us because of our
    antique furniture, but she is an indoor cat.  She adjusted just
    fine and I clip the back claws.  I tried for awhile with her when
    she first came, but 2 days after clipping she had sharpened her
    claws up again.  Smokey has 31 toes that I can find (he squirms
    so their could have been more) and I had him completely declawed
    because he would catch his feet in the rug and now matter how much
    I clipped he sharpened faster.  When he was declawed, he had two
    claws that had broken that he had hurt when scratching.  If he had
    not been double pawed, I would have only had the front done.  He
    uses the front paw with 8 toes like a hand.  The extra 3 toes are
    like a giant thumb and darned if he doesn't try to pick things up
    by curling the  object between his thumb and regular paw!
    
    Let us know what you decide.
    
    Cathy (Smokey & Bandit)

    You have to make a decision.  Either the cats are outdoor cats or
    they get declawed and become strictly indoor cats.  NEVER LET A
    DECLAWED CAT OUTSIDE!
      I understand your feelings about not wanting your new furniture
    destroyed.  My feelings about declawing is that it is a barbaric
    and traumatic experience for the cat that is only justified if you
    absolutely can not train your cat to scratch the right things and
    the only alternative is getting rid of him/her.  In short, I'd 
    rather see the cat declawed than sent to a shelter.  
      re: Clipping the nails.  We trim all four cats' claws and they
    do seem to fine it necessary to scratch as soon as they've been
    clipped.  Fortunately, we have been able to train our cats to
    scratch only certain things.  We built them a cat-tree in the hall
    which they have clawed and clawed.  We have a "cat-tunnel" in the
    living room which they claw and an old rug upstairs that they are
    allowed to claw.  And they pretty much restrict themselves to those.
      Here's a trick we used that seems to work.  I call it "shaping"
    or "redirecting" the behavior.  When I catch the cats clawing something
    they aren't supposed to - and they still occasionally slip, especially
    when an unfamiliar piece of furniture comes into the house - I firmly
    grasp their front paws, make scratching motions against the furniture
    and firmly say "Bad Girl".  I don't yell, I use the tone of my voice
    and they know "bad".  Then I pick them up, take them to the cat-tree,
    do the same thing with their paws and say "good girl" and pat them.
    The message I'm trying to give, and it seems to get across, is that
    its not the scratching that's bad, but rather their choice of
    scratching post.  Also, EVERY time I see them scratching the cat
    tree or one of the other OK things to scratch, I tell them "good
    girl" and pat them, therefore, reinforcing the ok behavior. 
      Try that coupled with dish towels soaked in green apple over the
    furniture that you don't want them to scratch.  Also, I'm told that
    cats don't like moth balls.  Perhaps you could put some in a plastic
    bag with holes punched in it and place it under the corners of the
    couch.  That might discourage them from going near the couch.
      I hope you will try these things, with patience and consistency,
    for a bit before you make the decision to declaw.
      Good luck and let me know how you make out.
        Nancy DC

Re: .0

    Notes 38, 74, 223, 778, and 821 all cover the pros and cons of declawing 
    and also suggest alternatives. There are more recent notes, I am sure; 
    I just happened to have a list of these handy.

    I would never declaw my cats, but I do have one that is declawed. I
    adopted Misty, now 14, two years ago. Her previous owners had her de-
    clawed when she was 9. After she was declawed, she started pulling out 
    the fur on her back and chest in stressful situations. I can usually
    count on finding a little pile of cat fur after I've vacuumed, for ex-
    ample. Also, I think it has made her overly defensive. For months after 
    I got her she assumed the other cats were out to get her and would smack 
    them if they got too close. On more than one occasion I was awakened 
    in the middle of the night by Misty's screams. Throwing off the covers 
    and leaping out of bed, I would race to the living room with a pounding 
    heart. There I would find Misty, on her back, braced against a corner of 
    the couch with hind feet ready to rip to shreds any cat who came near 
    her (she never actually did it; it was more for show, but you could 
    tell she was extremely upset). Fuzzy, who only wanted to play, would be 
    sitting at least 3 feet away with a bewildered look on his face.

    People have told me about their declawed cats that go outside and can 
    still climb trees and fight off other animals, but there is no guarantee 
    that in a life-threatening situation a declawed cat is going to be able 
    to climb the nearest tree or successfully bluff a vicious dog. Even cats 
    *with* claws become victims sometimes.

    Where you are moving to a new house, you have the perfect opportunity
    to shape your cats behavior, before they start any bad habits. I would
    try a two-part prodecure: keep the cats away from the new furniture 
    while giving them something they are allowed to scratch.

    Can you make your new furniture inaccessible for at least a while? Does 
    your new living room have a door so you can shut the cats out while you
    aren't there? Or can you add doors -- something nice, perhaps, like 
    French doors? If not, perhaps you could cover the new furniture with 
    throws while you're not home, as a deterrent.

    Cats do need something to sharpen their claws on. Since the old furni-
    ture is already trashed, can you save it (or one of the pieces) and put 
    it in a spare room (cats' playroom), the attic, the basement, or a porch? 
    They are already used to scratching the old stuff, so they may well prefer 
    it anyway. If necessary, you could make it even more attractive by rubbing 
    catnip into it. If you're going to get rid of the old furniture, why not 
    invest in a really good scratching post or piece of cat furniture designed 
    for cats to scratch? Some of the notes I mentioned previously have recom-
    mendations for different types of cat furniture and scratching posts. You 
    can also find ads for these things in Cats Magazine and Cat Fancy, avail-
    able at your newsstand or public library.

    I hope you will carefully consider all the angles before making your
    decision. Good luck!

    Linda

    Karen,
      What is it like outside of your house?  My oldest cat Nikki has
    been declawed since he was a kitten.  We used to let him out all
    the time.  He even brought home some moles and birds.  Our back
    yard was a pretty open place though.  There weren't a whole lot
    of woods and we rarely ever left them (we had three other cats at
    the time) out over night.  They never came home with a scratch on
    them.  Maybe it was luck but we never had a problem leaving them
    outside for a few hours or even a day.  It depends on your neigh-
    borhood I guess.  Our cats could even climb trees although, they
    had a tough time getting down sometimes.  I hope this helps.  I
    understand your situation and it is a dificult decision to make.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Carina, Nikki, Naomi, and Lyn.

    We picked up 4 - 5 ft strips of carpet remnants and tacked them
    down the full length of where two walls joined (we have paneling)
    and both cats RUN and tear up the full length of the remnants or
    they just stand on the floor, reaching full length of their
    bodies, stretching and clawing.  THEY REALLY LOVE IT.  We have
    5 or 6 strips attached in all rooms so no matter where they play
    they can knead.
    
    We had a siamese (who hated my husband) in Colorado and when we
    took her in for front-declawing the vet said what a lovely cat
    when Chi-Chi, with her front claws, raked the vet across the
    face drawing 4 patterns of blood.  The vet said, lets take all
    20 claws, which she did.  Chi-Chi somehow knew and proceeded to
    always bite after that.  I think I'd rather have my furniture
    clawed at than to have a feirce cat that bites.  Chi-Chi seemed
    to know what we'd done to her and paid us back.  We had to put
    her to sleep at 1 yr. old.
    
    Please think twice before having their toes amputated!  Please
    keep us informed as to your decision and good luck.
    
    The carpet remnants REALLY DO work!
    
    BJ
    

    
    When I brought Nippa home, much to my mom's chagrin, I was told
    if the cat ruins anything - she goes.  So I launched a full campaign
    to keep her.  We gave her an old couch and carpet in the basement
    with all her toys and blankets in the area.  She has the kitchen
    chairs to sleep on and an easy chair.  
    
    There is a product called 'no', which she hates the smell, and we
    spray it on a cloth and put it on the area we want her to stay away
    from.  90% she's good, although she has her moments.  Also when
    no one is home she has a chioce of going out or downstairs.  We
    use the same question whenever we leave and she gets right up and
    makes a decision, whether going downstairs, or going to the front
    door.  
    
    I think you'll have a hard time teaching your cats to keep off
    your old furniture, especially since they are used to using it.
    Maybe you could try adding a new piece at a time, and reinforce
    their using the old piece in stead of the new piece.  then eventally
    put the  old piece in the "cats" room.  
    
    Good luck!
    
    Michele and Nippa

    In the latest copy of my Associated Humane Society News is a note
    on a new type of surgery.  It cuts the tendons to the claws rather
    than removing them.  It appears to be pretty successful when owners
    keep claws trimmed after surgery.  I will gladly forward copies
    of the article to any interested parties as soon as my News is
    returned.  In the mean time a spray bottle of water, or if you must,
    bitter apple, is a great deterrant along with regular nail trimming.
    But remember to provide an alternative to the furniture! Good Luck!
    MaryAnne MacDonald
    dtn 264-9147
    

    Please explain this procedure.  Why do you need to trim a declawed
    cats nails?
    
    	-Nancy

    Some suggestions on your new furniture.  Smooth fabrics are not
    as fun to claw.  We replaced our old sofa and love seat with a
    beautiful polished cotton sofa and love seat.  This, combined with
    a cat tree in every room, mini blinds on the windows (with polished
    cotton valances and curtains), and occasional redirection have keep
    our home beautiful and scratch free.
    
    Jo

    Hi all,
    
    Sorry I haven't responded sooner, our Customers are in high gear
    this week!
    
    Anyway, after reviewing all your wonderful input, the majority are
    against declawing for very good reasons.  I know my cats wouldn't
    appreciate it anyway but wasn't sure if they could get used to it
    or what.  I have tried the bitter apple stuff but haven't tried
    the product called "NO".  Do you have more info on this?  Like does
    it smell bad or stain furniture?  How exactly is it used?
    
    We do have two scratching posts that are 4 feet tall each.  The
    cats (4 of them) take turns sleeping on top of them but I have rarely
    seen them scratch them.  My large cat loves the stairs tremendously
    and knows that they are a NO NO but when I get home, I can always
    tell he has been scratching them.  Can I punish him when I get home
    for something that happened hours ago?  This is really my biggest
    problem!  They know we will get after them if we are there, but
    during the day, they sorta run-a-muck on the stairs and furniture.
    We've just added a new kitten to the family and I  think the older
    cats behavior is rubbing off on him.  Do I just have rotten kids
    or what?  I need a plan for controlling their behavior when we aren't
    home.
    
    Thanks again for all your help
    
    Karen_who_really_needs_new_furniture.

Nancy the tendons to the claws are severed the claws themselves are
    not removed so they need to be trimmed regularly.
    MaryAnne

    re -1
    
    I don't understand this at all then.  What is the point
    of the surgery?
    
    Donna

    Does this tendon surgery eliminate their need/desire to claw.
    I know that's a natural tendency so does that curb that tendency?
    
    BJ
    

    The surgery sounds like it disables their ability to control claw
    actions.  If this is the case, I don't think that would be a good
    idea at all.  My cats will occasionally be running around the house
    and get a claw snagged on the carpet and do a double belly flip
    when they aren't paying attention.  Maybe this is why you have to
    keep them clipped, but if they can't control them, how do they climb,
    fight etc?  Whats the difference in getting them declawed...
    
    Please shed some light on this!
    
    Thanks Karen

    I would imagine that you would have to keep them clipped since they
    still would be growing. 
    
    Deb
    

    I use the product "NO" and have had basically good results.  It
    will stain fabric, so what they recomend doing is spraying it on
    a tissue or piece of paper and put that on the area you want them
    to stay away from.  it needs to be refreshed every day.  All Nippa
    has to see is the paper and she stays away!
    

    Cutting the tendon makes it impossible for the cat to extend its
    claws, therefore making it impossible for the cat to scratch
    (or fight or climb).  The difference between tendon cutting and
    standard declawing is that Declawing is analagous to amputating
    the tips of your fingers to the first knuckle.  (Think about it)
    Cutting the tendon removes the functionality of the claw, but
    leaves the paw intact.  It does nothing for the instinctive desire
    to scratch.  And yes, the nail keeps growing so you have to trim
    them regularly, especially since the cat is no longer able to 
    scratch and take care of its own claws.
      Clear? 
        Nancy DC

There's one point I'd like to remind people of here:

As we discovered in an earlier note on declawing,
declawing does NOT necessarily mean amputation. Someone
participating in that earlier note (I'm sorry-I don't remember who)
did a some research and discovered that there are two techniques
used for declawing. One of them does indeed involve amputation
of some part of the cat's "toes". The other does not--the claw is
removed. 

I believe that the technique most commonly used seems
to vary region by region. For instance, I'm from Florida, and had never
even heard of the amputation variation until I moved to New England.
(The thought of amputation makes me very uncomfortable, but the
surgical removal of the claws does not. I assume that most people feel this
way.) Is it possible to find
vets in this area who do not amputate when they declaw? 

    
    Bulger Animal Hospital does not amputate.  They are located in
    Andover MA and declawed both of my cats.  I know this because
    I asked them about it when I heard that many amputate.
    
    	Karen

    Personally I think declawing any cat is mean.  From what I've heard
    from other sources it is a very painful operation for the cat. 
    I have two indoor cat's at home and they occationally claw the
    furniture and we just yell at them, if I thought my furniture was
    so precious then I wouldn't own any, I would never concider having
    them declawed.  Even if you do have an indoor cat, they do escape
    occationally and then they would be without defense to other animals.
    
    IMO
    
    Chris
    

    Karen,
    
    I have 4 very active cats in my apt. (all indoor) and none are
    declawed.  I have a large kitty gym they use all the time, and their
    latest love for scratching is made of cardboard.  Has corrugated
    cardboard in the middle and box itself is oblong with a piece you can
    cut out to fit over a doorknob so it stands up at an angle.  I am on my
    second one since first seeing it at Mary Tamir's apt.  
    
    Mary's cats used it so well that I thought I'd see how mine liked it;
    glad I did as it was well worth the $5.28.  Picked it up at my
    local pet supply store, "Petcetera Inc.", Route 102, Hudson, NH.  It's
    called "Catnip Scratching Post", manufactured by Super Pet and costs only
    $5.28.  I just sprinkle the catnip (that comes with the post) in the 
    corrugated sections and place the post flat on the livingroom rug.  They
    all take their turns using it and even for the claws on their hind 
    feet as well as front.
    
    I do still trim their nails (when needed) each week when I groom them,
    since they don't really "trim" them on posts, etc.; just do the
    clawing, I understand, to shed the dead nail tissues which is part of
    the nail growing process.  They are all good about this except the youngest,
    Thai, who seems to act as though it will hurt him (which it never has as 
    I'm VERY careful not to trim too close to the visible vein in the nails).
    With time, and doing this on a regular basis, I expect he'll outgrow the
    fear.   D.P. Gremlin is my only double-pawed (all 4 feet) cat and doesn't
    mind trimming at all; nor does Holly or Buffy my older cats.
    
    I hope you'll try all the alternatives and you find something that
    works so you won't declaw.
    
    Pat, Holly, Buffy, D.P. Gremlin, & Velvet Thai
    

    Both Lightning and DejaVu have the front paws declawed.  The claws
    were removed and there was no amputation.
    
    Both were done by different vets in different states.  Lightning
    was done by Dr Wade in Littleton, Ma (what a love) and DejaVu
    was done by Dr Kingston in Hooksett, NH.
    
    I have never heard where the amputate part of the paw.  
    
    Of course they have been in-door cats all their lives and have no
    side effects from the de-clawing.  They were both done at 6 months
    of age.
    
    Thunder still has hers and has already gotten DejaVu's eye once.
    What with the Spaying and Mouth Surgery,  I didn't think it was
    a good idea to go for a third type of surgery on the same day.
    
    Good luck in whatever you decide.  I know I had valid reasons
    for making my decision and am not sorry about it (except once when
    Deja got out through an open window). 
    
    Sandi (Lightning, DejaVu & Thunder's mom)
    
    

    re: 22
    
    I'm on my way to the pet store to by this product.  I called around
    and found a place that has it.  I will also stock up on catnip.
    They have several toys full of catnip that they first used when
    I got them but now don't seem to interested.  Maybe the catnip is
    too old... Anyway, I know they love the stuff, so I'll try this.
    I really don't want to declaw them, especially since they know what
    life is like with claws.  I think that is what the worst part is.
    I will let you know how this works..   Keep you fingers(paws) crossed
    for me!!!!
    
    Thanks again for all of this great help!

    Re:  Old catnip
    
    I have noticed that when I buy the catnip toys in the grocery store,
    the cats usually don't like to play with them.  Apparently the catnip
    is too old.
    
    But, when I buy the catnip and the catnip toys at the feedstore,
    where I know the stuff is relatively fresh, the cats go nuts.
    
    	-Nancy

    
    
        no flames please....
    
         but getting back a little to the original question...how about
    declawing older cats (say 2-3 yrs old) ???  is the operation tougher
    on them because they are older...will it cause a problem, will vets
    perform it on older cats, and how do older cats respond to it..?????
    
        any info would be appreciated...
    
                kat
    
    

    I would guess that a 2/3 year old cat is still considered to
    be a 'young' cat, from a physiological point of view anyway.
    Surgery would not be as risky as that for a 10+ year old cat
    for instance.  
    
    Donna

    re: 26
    
    We declawed a 1 1/2 year old cat with no ill effects.  8 - 10 years
    I would not opt for unnecessary surgery, but 2/3 years is still
    young.

    My vet told me that the older they get the more painful it is for
    them.  
    
    I opted not to do it.  Snuggles had been through a lot the past
    year, what with moving and bringing a new kitten into the house.
    I was afraid it would be too stressful for him.
    
    Kathy