Conference misery::feline_v1

Re .0:
    
    >Under a law that becomes effective Friday, all cats in Naperville
    >must be inoculated and wear identifying collars.  In addition, if
    >the cats go outdoors and set foot on any street alley or other public
    >place, they must be on a leash.
     
    Although I'm all in favor of inoculation, and although nearly half
    my little ones wore collars, I'm dubious about the leash law.  I
    _never_ let my kitties outside ('cept to go to the vet or if we're
    visiting), but I think that that law could be challenged.  The U.S.
    law derived from English Common Law, and Prince Howel Ddah (sp?)
    of Wales, in about the 10th Century, established various laws about
    cats, and to a good lawyer, this and later ordinances might get
    this law overturned.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.   

    What would happen to a stray furface???  Poor little dear ones in 
    that town!

    Appears that they wouldn't have the problem after too long. :-(((
    

    
    My guess is that the reason they put the law in place was to find
    a way to cure their stray problem.  They probably have tons of strays
    and want to kill them all on one shot.  Pretty morbid town.  I doubt
    such a law could pass around here!  (NH/MA) 
    
    Karen

    Go ahead and cut me down if you'd like, but I think a leash law
    for cats is great.  I mean afterall, why shouldn't there be a leash
    law for cats.  Dogs have to be on a leash.  It's mostly to keep
    the population of unwanted dogs and cats down.  I'd rather see animals
    on a leash than to see all those unwanted animals that are in the
    shelters.  I've seen a lot of ads in this file alone looking for
    homes for the offspring of some of your cats.  The cat probably
    wouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place if it wasn't out
    roaming the streets alone.  That's where most stray cats come from
    any way.  I think it's a great solution to ending a stray/unwanted cat
    problem.
    
    And what about those poor cats you see on the side of the road, poor
    victims of hit and run.  Would that have happend if that cat had
    been brought out on a leash?  I think not!
    
    Lori

    
    I am curious as to why people think it is okay to let cats wander.  
    How about some responses that would build a case against cats having 
    a leash law and why they should be able to wander about.  Your
    arguement though should be fairly factual and not just emotional,
    something another words that would convince an unbiased court of law.
    
    I have a new kitten and am hardly a cat hater, yet my family has
    had dogs and I never really understood the reasoning for letting
    cats run loose.  If you are to build your case around "it is in
    their nature to be free and would be miserable if they were couped
    up all the time," I can respond by saying the same is true for dogs.
    Could it be that part of the reason for the enormous amount of stray
    and unwanted cats has to do with no regulations for controlling
    cats (ie. cats that are not neutered or are strays that wander and
    make new cats)?  On the surface, it appears that it is pretty snobbish
    to say that cats are excluded from being controlled - I can't think
    of any other domesticated animal where the owner is not responsible.
    
    So please convince me!  Flames are not desired since I am playing
    a bit of a devil's advocate.
    
    Rick
    
                                                                       

    The first argument that comes to mind is that it is awfully hard
    to catch mice if you're tied up.  And that is the reason my 3 are
    outdoor cats.  Since they've been let outside, they have cut down
    the rodent population considerably.  I haven't had a mouse in the
    house for nearly 2 years!
    
    Anne       

    
    .7 That's true, but a dog owner could say that his dog cannot properly
    protect his property on a leash - one of the main reasons many people
    feel dogs are beneficial.  The dog owner can say that he is responsible
    for keeping his pet on his property, why shouldn't the cat owner
    be responsible for the same.  And I do understand that keeping a
    cat contained on one's property is not as easy as a dog may.  But
    as a juror, I still feel dogs and cats should be regarded the same.
    
    Rick
    

    I see nothing wrong with teaching a cat to walk attended on a leash
    and harness.  But leaving them tied up outside in the yard where
    they are vulnerable to predators is not a wise thing to do.  I know
    your notes didn't openly suggest that but am wondering if this is
    what you had in mind.
    
    Just curious.
    
    /Roberta
    

    
    .9  No, I agree!  In fact, it would look kind of weird seeing a
    cat on a leash or tied in the yard.  I am really not advocating
    either side, just trying to understand why cats are treated differently
    from dogs.  And, if a law were to be proposed to restrict cats free
    movement, what would advocates argue to defend their "cat's rights."
    
    Rick
     

    
    Not too long ago I did see a cat tied up in the yard with no one
    around.  The poor thing looked so vulnerable, that I felt rather
    sorry for it, especially if a vicious animal came along.  I wouldn't
    go for it (leash law).
    
    Katie
    

    
    An idea...
    
    Many people are afraid of dogs, especially ones which run up to
    you while walking down the street....they could be friendly or they
    might not be  (I love animals, but I am very uncomfortable when
    a strange dog approaches me).  Have you ever waked down a street
    and had a cat approach you meowing at the top of his lungs and 
    actually made you afraid?  
    
    I also second the arguement cincerning rodent control....My cat 
    has eliminated the rodent problem (for the entire neighborhood).
    

    
    re; 12 -- good defense.....no, a cat never scared me, but many dogs
    have!!
    
    The other problem with leashes is --  how do you "teach an old
    cat new tricks".   Since my cats are strickly indoor cats, I tried to 
    put Ebony on a leash once when I was out on my deck sitting in the sun 
    and HE ALMOST STRANGLED HIMSELF!!   First he got all twisted up,
    and then he tried to jump down the stairs......he didn't understand 
    what the leash was all about. 
    
    I was petrified when I heard SNAP.....thank God it was only the
    collar that broke as apposed to his neck.   Anyway, I had a heck
    of a time finding him after that (this scared the hell out of him) 
    and he now sits in the window overlooking the deck and crys to come 
    out.
    
    I don't think the leash law for cats is entirely way out of line
    though.  I say this because I get sick inside when I see so many
    strays (baby's and full grown) and there's really nothing I 
    personally can do for them.
    
    Just my .02 worth!
    
    Barbara (Ebony & Ivory's mom)
    
    
                                                                 

    I think a leash law for cats is a good idea.  It would certainly
    help to reduce the stray feline population and it would help protect
    OTHER animals.  Personally, I don't feel that cats with responsible
    owners have the need to go around killing other animals.  They may
    enjoy the chase and kill but if they are being fed by a caring human
    then their is no need to kill.  Obviously, the only way to prevent
    a cat from following this un-needed instinct is to confine it within
    the house or use a leash.
    
    Years ago, I saw my friends cat drag in a very injured baby rabit.
    It was just awful!  This little bunny didn't deserve to die this
    way.  On another occasion, my nieghbor's pet parrot was killed by
    a cat.  He (the bird) was sitting outside with the family by the
    pool as he usually did and out of nowhere came a cat that killed
    him instantly.  This bird was not only very expensive ($1000) but
    was the family pet for about 9 years!  It was a terrible loss for
    the family both financially and emotionally.  
    
    I don't think the right of letting a cat follow its natural hunting
    instinct is worth the death of these and other innocent animals.
    
    My cats are confined within the house and I don't think they miss
    the killing and I don't miss coming home to find dead bodies at
    my doorstep.
    
    Jeanne, Cali and Sam
    
    

    
    This is an interesting session.  It seems like we have a large cross
    section of opinion.  How about one more?
    
    We tried in Calgary, Alberta to bring in cat licencing and leashing.
     Our local government shot it down.  I do not think the issue is
    dead here.
    
    I work at the Calgary SPCA on weekends and I witness first hand
    the actual ignorance of pet owners in action.  Many dog and cat
    owners feel it is cruel to alter their pets, however they do not
    think twice of bringing it and its litters to us to destroy.   I
     hear all kinds
    of logic and excuses, unfortuately none of it works.
    
    To *contradict that* there are a great deal of responsible pet owners
    that neuter their pets and control their pets--both cats and dogs.
     Cats can and should be restrained...I know that sometimes they
    do slip through the door...little devils.  Some peopole I know have
    a completely enclosed structure for their cats outside, similar
    to a dog pen with a roof.  The cat thourghly enjoys his safe time outside
    and is still able to catch the little stupid mice that crawl through
    the holes of his cage...the best of both worlds.  
    
    I have trained both my cats to walk or "be dragged" by a leash...mind
    you they are not always thrilled but it beats being hit by a car
    or taken to the pound.
    
    The only real answer to this situation is to alter the animals (unless
    they are breeding stock) then if they do escape like they can, they
    don't make a 100 little kitties in an evening of romance.  Nothing
    is puurfect.
    
    I feel very strongly about the leash law and support it 100%.  I
    also belive that cats should be innoculated and registered and
    *licenced*.  Unaltered animals should have a higher licencing fee
    than altered ones, as an incentive.
    
    The shelter I work at has a donation fund available for pet owners
    who cannot afford to pay the vet bills....really there is no excuse.
    
    Interesting tid bit...In an average month, we destroy approximately
    650 stray cats.  Many are kittens or moms with litters.  I wonder
     how many less we would have if 95% of
    cat owners had them fixed.  I just might be out of a job...Yippee!
      
    This is only one person's opinion, I appreciate everyone's comments.
    Shelley
     
    
      
    
    

    
    .14 and .15 bring up some excellent points.  I have come to change
    my opinion from kind of supporting a leash law to definitely supporting
    one.  I don't think the cats should be tied outside, but unless
    they live on a farm or an area with large acreage, cats probably
    should not be allowed to roam free.  Obviously the current system
    does not work.  
    
    I think it was .11 or .12 that mentioned that cats were not scary
    to the average person walking on the street the way dogs can be.
    That is quite true.  However, there are other reasons to keep cats
    off the streets besides the obvious - hit by cars and unwanted
    pregnancies for un-neutered cats.  Many people love to put up bird
    feeders and watch all the different type of birds that visit them.
    Is it fair for a loose cat to hunt these animals on another person's
    property?  My mother-in-laws cat also came home with a baby rabbit
    when she got loose one day.  Cats certainly have rights, but to
    say that they should be able to run free sometimes effects the rights
    of other humans and animals.  And I think many cat lovers have
    indicated that.
    
    Rick
    

    I'm probably sound like some kind of "ol timer", but a cat on a
    leash seems so unnatural.  I guess I just have to get used to the
    idea.
        
    RE: 14
    I don't enjoy killing either or rodent parts as presents.  Like
    you, I used to get hysterical when our cats would bring home a kill.
    My brother used to encourage them in the cat-and-mouse-game and
    send me screaming in the other direction.  [He's a dentist now.
    Kinda fitting.]  However, when I first moved into my current home,       
    I used to lie in bed and listen to the sounds of "rodentia dementia"
    as mice/squirrels/chipmunks/whatever chewed my walls, traipsed through
    my kitchen cabinets, feasted on whatever was in the cabinets and
    then eliminated what they'd eaten on counters, behind fridge, etc.
    Leaving poison out made me a wreck cuz I thought the cats would
    eat it (or eat the poisoned mouse).
    When my cats make a kill these days, I make a big fuss, tell them
    they are wonderful and break out the Friskies.
        
    Eek! [To steal a phrase] I seem to becoming too emotional.  I guess
    until I never see a mouse (or any other similar creature) I'll be a 
    non-leasher.  I even have a motto for the non-leash contingent 
    "Remember The Plague!"
        
    Enough said.  Back to the Lab.  ;-)
        
    Anne
    

    RE:  2020.18
    
    ANSWER:
    
    Yes, I think that when you cat is outside, keeping him a leash would
    prevent unwanted litters.  If his owner was at the other end of
    the leash, I would think that cats would not be too willing to
    procreate.  I did not mean to imply to tie up your cat outside
    unattended...that leads to unwanted accidents and perhaps dead cats.
    
    As pet owners we should be responsible for our pets.  Comparing
    children to cats is like comparing apples to oranges.  Kids have
    minds of their own.  As parents we also do not have option to alter
    our children.  As pet owners we do.  If pets are not breeding stock,
    what is the purpose of not altering them or protecting them by keeping
    them on a leash and in our sight. 
    
    I walk my cats, granted people look and stare but I feel better
    knowing that I am doing my part by protecting them from cars, animals
    and other cat hating neighbors (who like to leave little bowels
    of antifreeze out for curious kitties to eat).  
    
    Your point about collars is well taken.  Dogs can be collared...cats
    can to.  I have dog collars on both my cats and they do not get
    them off.  The are light weight nylon and I have afixed the reflective tag
    to the clasp.  If you use the kind with the elastic band in them...they
    will come off.   Tatooing is also also an alternative that can be
    used in indentify your pet.
    
    In Calgary, all pets that are tatooed have their numbers registered
    with all the area veternarian offices, city pounds  and local SPCA
     shelters. 
    It cost about $5.00 more when having your animal altered...I think
    it is worth it.
    
    Shelley
    
    
    
    

    RE:.19
    
    My fear of collars that don't come off is:
    
    Cats love to explore small tight places. If the collar gets 'hung-up'
    and the cat can't slip out of it you have a cat that is in big time
    trouble.
    
    I live in farming country, and always have had indoor/outdoor cats.
    To my suprise one day one of my cats got a flea collar hung-up in
    the house and he could not free himself. Another time I responded
    to the sounds of a cat fight outside my house and found a lost or
    abandoned cat that looked more dead than alive. the poor thing
    looked like it was about to die of starvation. One of its forepaws
    was caught under its collar, the free forepaw was either hurt or
    sore due to the effort the poor animal had to use to get around.
    The only way the cat could move was by pushing itself along the
    frozen snow (temp. was -15 degrees) with its hind feet. I am sure
    that if i had not gone out there when I did that I would have found
    a dead cat in the morning. Since the I don't use collars on cats.
    
    BTW--I named that poor cat 'One O'clock' (due to the time of our
    first meeting). I made every effort to find his home, but never
    did. Every so often when I look at him I wonder who it is that spent
    endless empty painful hours waiting for their cat to come home.
    He was wearing a nice collar, he is a good and loving cat, somewhere
    he had a good home and a loving owner.
    
    Kirk

    Re .19
    
    Do you really think that if you have a female cat in heat, on a
    leash, that having a person on the other end of the leash will
    acctuallly keep the cat from procreating?  
    
    If the human intervenes and keeps the males away, yes it could work.
    But, I don't know of many cats that like to keep the procreation
    a private matter.
    
    	-Nancy

    I'm going to add one more cent to my two cents worth and then shut
    up.  [But if I close my mouth, I'll probably beat myself to death
    with my tongue!]
    
    I don't see cats as only companions or nature's most beautiful creature
    to be adored [have my cats got me trained!].  But my cats are also
    helpmates.  They have responsibilities just like a dog that guards,
    sheperds, etc. [In fact my cats wake up the dog to let her know
    something's afoot in their territory.] The house is not just my house, 
    but our house. Everyone contributes.  I think I like that ideal best of all.
    Unfortunately there have always been dangers.  Today it's cars and
    cat-nappers.  But in the past, it's been guns, witch-hunters, and who
    knows what.
    
    OK.  I'm through. 
    
    Anne (Who is owned by Seamus, Molly and Boomer)
       

    
    
         O.K. I've been watching this note with alot of interest just
    to see what the majority of people feel.  I figure I'll put my two
    cents in but of course it's only personal opinion. 
    
         I myself think a cat leash law is the best thing I've heard
    for a long time.  On the other hand .....  because of the feelings
    of people such as I'll never be able to train my cat to walk on
    a leash or simply ignoring the law because they think its stupid
    the number of cats being put down at that areas shelter may just
    escalate.  I guess its a double edged sword on this one.
    
          Why do I think it's great?  Well my 3 are indoors only.  I
    could never ever think of them roaming out from under my eye with
    all the things going on these days.  We've got labs, we've got the
    blackmarket on the cats to different experimental groups who don't
    want to $400-$500 for a cat that is bred strictly for experimention
    but would much rather fork over a much lower sum for someone's pet,
    we may have furcoats made from cat fur (where do you think they'll
    get those pretty furs?) and I could go on with what we've got out
    there.  Not to mention mean little children, dogs, fishcer cats,
    and the once in while animal sacrifice that's found.
    
          Yeah I guess I'm just sick of coming in in the morning and
    seeing a very tiny black kitten on the side of the ride and then
    having to drive by the same kitten 4 more times as it gets worse
    and worse.  I'm sick of seeing a cat run or leisurely walk across
    a busy busy street in traffic and wonder if it'll even make it through
    that day alive.  I'm sick of having a cat at the back porch and
    laying awake at night wondering if it really does have an owner
    or not out there in the freezing cold.  And most of all I'm sick
    of seeing and hearing about the litters and litters of kittens because
    owners do not get their animals fixed and still allow them to wander
    about the neighborhood.  
    
          My cats are my children and just like I would not allow my
    children to wander out from my watchful eye the same goes for them.
    To take it even further if I had a child they'd grow and learn about
    these things that are a danger to them and hopefully be able to
    protect themselves and know danger.  My cats are not such.  They
    depend on me to take full responsibilty for them and to protect
    them from other people or dangers that they can't reason out for
    themselves.  
    
           This is my own personal opinion and yeah I guess you may
    have figured out I'm all for the leash law.  
    
                                                                   kim

Good for you, Kim!

At least we know there's one person whose cats won't
be out in the cold, lost, run over, breeding more homeless
kittens, sold to a lab, kicked around by an animal hater,
or spraying someone else's property.

I think the problem here is that the way people take care
of their cats is cultural--almost as deep a part of them as,
say, their religious background. It's very rare to find a person
who all their life has known or owned cats who were allowed
to roam outdoors unsupervised who then later in life can ever accept
the fact that their cat could be happy indoors. In the same way,
people like me, who've always had indoor cats and indoor dogs,
will never understand the belief that pets "were meant to be free",
and would never accept the idea that a pet animal can take care of
themselves roaming around outdoors. [How do you teach them to
"look left, right, then left again" before crossing the street? :-) ]

I think that's why people are so hard-core leash/indoors vs noleash/outdoors.

Just my guess. But I think this is an issue that won't ever be resolved.

	I am going to open my mouth and i already know my foot will
    enter it many times, but.....................
    
    re.2
     <	"What would happen to the little fur faces ?????? "
      		I personally think they are already in trouble by being
    strays. What would happen to them certainly can not be worse than
    being out in the wild...........................(more on this later)
    
    re.4 I disagree with you.... I doubt there only reason for implementing
    this law is just so they can round them up and shoot them... If
    that was the case, then I agree..They are morbid. But come on ...
    Lets be realistic... Maybe they have outher reasons for doing this.
    Maybe they are trying to solve a problem....................
    
    re. 11
    	As far as leaving a cat tied out...... Anyone who seriously
    cared about their cat (my opinion only- perhaps a bit to cold) would
    not leave them tied to a rope un attended
    
    re 12
    	You have either one good cat or you live in a small
    neighborhood...(sorry couldnt resist it) The reason for the lease
    law was not to control attacking cats, I think, but for other purposes.
    
    re.13
    	Yes it may be hard to train your cat to accept a collar, but
    it can be done. How do people train dogs, cats, or other animals?
    Patients..... If you put a leash on and then tie the cat outside
    without making them comfortable, then you will never succeed. I
    had a cat that I trained to wear a collar. When she was used to
    wearing that , I trained her to accept being tied out,. Then while
    I was sitting outside or working on the yard, she was able to be
    with me and enjoy the outdoors. It worked out great. Sure, at first
    she was uncomfortable, but only temporarily.
    
    re. 18
    	Comparing humans to cats is unbelievable. Please tell me how
    a stray cat is like a promiscuous kid. I do not make the connection
    at all. Maybe I am stupid., but while we are at it lets compare
    snakes to doves. I do not think 14 was trying to say he/she loved
    rodents that much. I think there was a point trying to be compared.
    
    	But what really bothers me is this statement...." the animals
    who get hit are stupid.......etc." Again I do not understand this.
    There is a big defference between an animal that gets hit and a
    person. The biggest part is the knowledge of what a car is and what
    it can do. People have that knowledge. Animals do not. I do not
    think any have gone through drivers ed.(ha) What I am trying to
    say is......... People are usually aware of the implications of
    oncoming cars. Where do animals get that knowledge.... There are
    some animals that know to avoid cars....Those being trained to stay
    away from roads, those being bumped by one... But where else. I
    think it isw wrong to make such a comparison. It is not a matter
    of thinking. It is a matter of not knowing.!!!!!!
    
    re.19
    	Yes i do think having someone on the other end of the lease
    will prevent a cat from procreating. If it didn't i would think
    they person on the other end of that lease is either pretty slow
    or very uncaring ........ If i had a cat (or any other animal) on
    a lease, and another approached, I would take some precautions.
    I would not let nature take its course.... Two dogs in that situation
    may fight.(I would try to avoid it). Two cats can be seperated I
    would think.
    
    re.22
    You ask if it is wrong to let your cat free to roam... I do not
    want to anger you too, but...... I now have four cats in desperate
    need because of that reason. (you can read many of my notes here
    and in small animals to understand more fully) These cats came to
    us as babies born in the wild. There were five. One never returned.
    Two are still pretty wild, and luckily two are in house today.
    the mom is still out there breeding to her hearts content.  People
    are wrong to let their animals loose. I am sorry but I do not care
    if it is a cat, dog, or a hampster. It is unfair to the animal,
    it is unfair to others. 
    
    re
       all of you.......... I am sorry if I offended any of you. I realise
    I have. It just bothers the hell out of me to see so many animals
    being effected by peoples callous attitudes. Some see no problem with
    their pets loose ..... I think if they saw the end result and found
    themselves in situations where the animal was adversly effected
    then they would understand.
    
    
    
    This is my overly emotional opinion only................
    
    curt
    

    I'm with you Kim - 100%.  My cats only go out on leashes.  They've
    all learned to live with them.  The price we pay for the security
    is having to keep an eye on them when they are outside to make sure
    they don't get tangled, climb trees and hang themselves or that
    another dog or cat doesn't wander into the yard and attack them.
    But I NEVER worry about my cats not coming home at night or picking
    up feline leukemia (they are vaccinated, by the way), or being abused.
    Mao will even walk through the Braintree conservation land with
    us!  The key with cats is being more stubborn than they are.  Just
    keep telling yourself that you're smarter than they are and therefore
    know what's best for them.  They'll adjust.
    
      The bottom line here, tho, is that everyone has to live with them-
    selves.  If you live in a rural area and feel its ok for your cat
    to run then do what you think is best.  Personally, I had one cat
    killed outside.  I have NEVER stopped feeling directly responsible
    and I will NEVER let another pet of mine run.
    
       Nancy DC
    

    One last point - statistics show that indoor cats live considerably
    longer lives than outdoor cats.  That's hard to argue with.
    

>    Many people are afraid of dogs, especially ones which run up to
>    you while walking down the street....they could be friendly or they
>    might not be  (I love animals, but I am very uncomfortable when
>    a strange dog approaches me).  Have you ever waked down a street
>    and had a cat approach you meowing at the top of his lungs and 
>    actually made you afraid?  
    
I've known several people who are terrified of cats BECAUSE they can
come at you from anywhere when you are outside.  I've also known
many people who have severe allergies to cats and who cannot leave their
outdoor furniture uncovered for any length of time because the neighbor's
cats are all over the furniture.  I know people who have gardens that
they cherish and work long and hard at keeping beautiful that have the
neighbor's cats digging up the flowers, and leaving unpleasant marks
on everything by spraying....not to mention the piles of cat poop that
are left for them to clean up.  I don't tolerate my neighbor forcing
me to clean up and fix up after his/her dog - why is it assumed that I
should be happy to clean up and fix up after his/her cat?

My cats are not my neighbors' problem - they are mine and mine alone.
I am responsible for them and must keep them off my neighbors' property.
If I have to keep them indoors all the time, except when on a leash to
meet that responsibility, then that is what I have to do.  It is simply
respecting the other person's rights.  Now, if I can just convince my
neighbors to be as responsible about their pets and children, maybe I
can have a nice front yard someday.

    I once asked my husband that if you hit a dog on the road why do
    you have to stop and find out whose dog it was.  It's against the
    law to just drive away.  Why don't you have to stop when you hit
    a cat.  His answer was because dogs are registered and cats aren't.
    My heart hurts so when I see a cat on the side of a road..... I
    just start sobbing.  I even sobbed when I struck a baby chipmunk.
    
    My problem with cats tied up in the yard is that there will *ALWAYS*
    be people who won't leash theirs and theirs will come into my yard
    and attack my cats.  I go through that almost EVERY night with a
    mangy, ugly, dirty tom who won't leave my cats along.  He's beligerent
    and will actually come towards me if I try to stop him.  I scream
    at him and he just stands there.  I would NEVER leash my cats and
    leave them alone.  They'd be dead.
    
    Guns are against the law but there will always be someone who has
    one.  The same with a leash law ... some will abide and SOME WON'T!
    
    BJ
    

    in response to .29 --> It just made me think of our new neighbors
    who are not the best in the world.  Among other things they have
    a big black dog, who is just beautiful and I love dogs, BUT they
    let him run.  He is the ONLY dog in the neighborhood that runs.
    He poops in my front yard and I don't dare leave the cats out on
    their leashes unattended for a second.  He has been blamed for one
    attack on a cat in our neighborhood. 
      Now I HATE that!  I would never inflict that on my neighbors.
    

    Re. -1
    
    That may be fine for the countrysides in New Hampshire & Vermont,
    but not for heavy populated cities & towns.  You don't see cows
    & horses, etc roaming the streets do you?  
    
    Why not say they should be allowed to roam free too?
    
    If you want to keep an animal for a pet they become your
    responsibility and too let them roam were they can do damage to
    other peoples property and to themselves is irresponsible.
    
    This is my opinion anyway.
    
    Kathy

    Geez, I promised myself I would not say anymore on this topic, but
    here I am again.
    
    Leashing is another variation of the indoor/outdoor discussion --
    and just as emotional.  I think we'd be wise to agree to disagree.
    
    I grew up with outdoor cats and, then later, had indoor cats.  And
    I've come to the conclusion that with me, it depends on where I
    live.  [Right now it's in the woods.]  But I do empathize with
    anyone who has lost any animal to cars, guns, or whatever.  Animals
    really are a part of the family and the loss can be just as intense.
                                                                         
    Remembering that I am the rodent-disliker --  After thinking it over,
    if I lived on a busy street AND had rodents, I'd probably call an
    exterminator [providing he could promise that the cats would not
    get accidentally exterminated].                            
        
    And, I hope I don't sound sanctimonious, but whether we have outdoor
    or indoor cats, I think it is safe to assume that none of us would
    be participating in "meower power" if we did not love our feline
    partners.                         
                                      
    OK, honest, I'm done.  No More!   
    
    Happy Holidays to you and your cats&kittens!
                                      
    Anne     
                             
                                      
                                      

    RE 35.
    	I agree with you 100% in regards to neutering cats that will
    be outside. But How are you ever going to make people see the need
    for it, much less compell them to do so? To many people have the
    attitude that it is everyones else responsibility and not their
    own. (I am not attacking anyone in this notes file)
    	I still feel there should be more restraints when dealing with
    animals. If you own an animal, you should be responsible for their
    wellbeing. That responsibility includes their personal wellbeing
    and the wellbeing of those they effect. 
    	If our neighbor fixed their cat before letting it out, we would
    not have four kittens out our door. If they were responsible enough
    two of those kittens would not now be pregnant. They would also
    not be facing the cold winter nights in sub degree weather.
    	Neutering is a fine idea, but until you can gett the message
    out to those that need it, nothing will be accomplished. If you
    did get the message out, it would only be the people that normally
    take precautions that did something about it.
    	I think the more realistic idea is education... We need to teach
    those people that can see nothing wrong with allowing their animals
    to be "free", that there is a responsibility.
    	Neutering is fine, but that is just one small part to the overall
    answer. 
    
    Curt
     

    I have a friend who is very near and dear to my heart but to hear
    her talk about all her cats just makes my blood boil.  "Oh well
    we have had so many cats over the years - we just got use to them
    coming and going.  You know with that road we live on they just
    got killed all the time...." "Well first we had a female cat but
    she got pregnant - so we gave away all the female cats and kittens
    and just kept the male ones so we wouldn't have to deal with any
    more kittens..."  When I took in Sweetie (the abandonned kitty so
    she wouldn't have to live out in the cold) "Well our cats live fine
    outside all year long - they survive with just the hay in the barn.
    She would have been fine outside."
    
    All I can think of is how unhealthy these cats are - infested with
    flea's and earmites, no warm lap to snuggle on, probably never had
    a shot in their life.  But wake up feliners - we are a minority.
    Most people don't know and don't care to know.  This women is loveable,
    intelligent and caring, yet she and her family have no clue about
    cats.  I agree we need to educate.  But treatment of the cats as
    stated above has to end!!!!
           
    RE: The leash law
    
    I have neighbors who's cats are always trying to get in my house, in my
    garage, pooping in my garden, playing with my Christmas lights until
    they fall down, eating my flowers, playing with my tulips til they
    break.  Why is my yard being invaded by these cats - there are no laws
    to protect neighbors from cats.  My other neighbor has a dog that
    is tied up outside - these cats come around and tease the dog until
    he is hoarse from barking and yanking at his chain. 
    
    My cats are never a bother to anyone except the birds they scare away
    from the window.  I agree 100% with the leash law - I think it is
    wonderful. 
                               

    re.38
    
    	How do we educate??? Well, how about here... I think it is a
    good start. And I do not mean to be sarcastic nor antagonistic,
    but.....................After reading some past notes in this file
    and others (ie: canine, small animals, etc.) there are many out
    there that would do to get some knowledge of animals and
    responsibilities.	
    	Please, no one get me wrong. I admire most everyone that writes
    in these files. Obviously many out there are trying to get more
    knowledgeable. Others may not be attempting to learn a thing, but
    I feel this note file has to rub off somewhat. I find it hard to
    believe that one can read in here and not see a different side of
    particular issues.
    	I do think though, (on the negative side) that there are many
    that close their mind to what others suggest. I am not sure if it
    is pride, set ways, or ignorance. I think we could all attempt to
    listen and learn.... (myself included)...........
    
    	by the way........ anyone have a change of view after reading
    the last 38 replies? I am interested in seeing how effective noters
    are.
    
    
    curt
    

    
    I just heard another good reason for having pets confined rather
    than running loose.
    
    I have friends who live on the edge of Colorado Springs (next to
    the Air Force Academy).  A neighbor's dog was missing.  They hunted
    around and finally found him stuffed under a scrub oak.  They pulled
    him out and discovered he was partially eaten.
    
    Everyone immediately suspected coyotes, but this was a LARGE Golden
    Retriever.  The vet came out and discovered Mountain Lion tracks
    nearby (tracks the size of a man's hand).  Then more tracks have
    been discovered within 50 yards of some houses.
    
    The neighbors started discussing this.  It turns out several people
    are missing dogs AND cats (for over a 3 month period).  Evidently
    some old Puma has discovered easy lunch and a good water source
    in this community.  

    Mary Jo

    re. .39
    
    Curt,  while I don't dispute that we can use this notesfile
    as a means of educations, I feel it's rather like preaching
    to the converted.  It is a rare person that enters into
    FELINE who is not a proponent of spaying/neutering their
    household pets.  
    
    Donna

    Personally, I think that the education ought to start in the public
    schools. You teach little kids from kindergarten on about the
    responsibility of caring for pets, from the importance of fresh water
    and food and a clean place to sleep right on to neutering. Then, even
    if their parents don't feel that same way, when the kids grow up they
    will have had these beliefs instilled in them. (Who knows, maybe the
    kids could teach the parents a little about pet responsibility)

    It would be great if cat or dog clubs could go out to schools and
    present this kind of thing to those young, impressionable minds.

    Deb

    re: .39
    
    For what its worth, a couple of people in the CANINE notesfile have
    converted recently.  They started out with entries asking for a
    mate for their animal, or with questions about breeding, and wound
    up deciding to spay or neuter.  So it can work occasionally.  I
    think it really helped that in these instances people were helpful
    and informative, rather than flaming, which happens all too often
    on this topic.
    
    Karen, Tristan and Tenzing (and Aisha and Zowie) -- all spayed and
    neutered!

    Another vehicle of education are Cat Shows - those of us showing
    Household Pets do quite a lot of talking with spectators - also
    if you enter your household pet, it must be spayed or neutered
    if it is over 8 months or one year.  
    
    E.T.

    It seems to me that people who have indoor cats endorse the leash
    law and people with indoor/outdoor cats think the law is absurd.
    
    So, I think some people are for or against the law based on their
    beliefs as to where cats should belong. 
    
    I think the leash law is not very sensible, but the requiring the
    cats to be vaccinated (esp. against rabies) is reasonable.
    
    I don't think cats are causing that much damage to other animals.
    My cats hunt and they bring home on the average of 5 preys a years.
    Well, that number is nothing compared to the number of animals
    run over by cars, poisoned by pollution, etc. 
    
    You know, my neighbors' kids are doing more damage to my yard than
    my cats. Isn't that a shame? There were days that I wanted to put
    up a fence to keep the kids out. 
    
    If there comes a day that a leash law is passed in MA, I will have
    to put my cats to sleep, or give them away to relatives in other
    states. That is absolutely no way that they'll stay confined.
    I think other cat lovers out there should think about others' cats.
    Believing in indoor cats is one thing, causing misery to existing
    outdoor cats is another. Unless, these "cat lovers" can come up with a
    solution for the existing population of indoor/outdoor cats, which
    are totally innocent, blindly supporting the leash law based on
    philosophical differences and personal preferences is pure HYPOCRISY.
    (No flames)
    
    Eva

    I DON'T TAKE LIGHTLY TO BEING CALLED A HYPOCRITE!
    
      I honestly believe that to let your cat run is to invite disease,
    abuse, and death to your animal.  Now who's not thinking of the
    animal's welfare.
      I agree that it is very difficult if not impossible to teach an
    outdoor cat to be an indoor cat, but if you'd never let them out
    in the first place they wouldn't think they were supposed to go
    out there.   And if the owner is willing to put in a little effort,
    cat's can be trained to wear a leash just like a dog is.  No one
    goes around saying that dogs should be allowed to run or that it
    is unnatural for a dog to wear a harness and collar.
       I THINK YOU COULD USE A GOOD LESSON IN TACT!  
    
        Nancy (who loves her cats very very much) DC

    re 45
    	You know, the leash law is in itself probable not a "purrfect"
    solution to a common problem.But, it is an attempt.
    
    After reading your heading," do we care about the cats themselves"
    I wonder what you mean. You obviously disagree with the leash law.
    I would further guess you think those fighting it are a little off
    base. But I think all those opposed to the leash law are not even
    trying to understand others views. 
    
    After reading all previous replies, I do not feel the reason for
    the lease law is to save small animals being killed by those unleashed
    cats. I do however feel the issues are:
    
    	1) Cats being hit by oncoming cars.
    
    	2) diseases being transmitted and picked up.
    
    	3) cats being killed by stray animals.
    
    	4) cats having to live in the wild, having to fend for itself.
    
    	5) cats getting lost.
    
    	6) cats getting pregnant outside and leaving litters to fend
           for themselves.          
    
    	7) trying to curb the excess unwanted animals that are found
           on the roads, in the woods, and in humane societies.
    
    Is it blind hypocrisy to care about the welbeing of pets and animals?
    I do not think so. I think more so, it is an attempt to solve a
    problem which is very prevelant in our society. Neglect. 
    
    People who care for pets have a responsibility to see they are safe.
    They also have a responsibility to those around them.
    I do not feel anyone is trying to cause misery to outdoor cats.
    On the flip side of the coin, I feel people are trying to help those
    cats.
    curt
    

    Well, after reading through all these replies on the subject I'll put
    in my 2 cents worth.
    
    I also believe that the reasoning behind the cat leash law is the same
    as mentioned in reply .45 and not to keep cats from killing other
    creatures.
    
    I also feel that indoor cats are not only healthier and safer, but can
    be happier too if you make the necessary accommodations for them -
    litterboxes, scratching posts, diet to include fresh greens, etc.  I've
    known of indoor cats who've controlled unwanted creatures in the home
    very well.  Most do this for 'sport' not for food.  Outdoors, the "wild"
    predators like snakes and birds can control these unwanted guests of the
    home without the help (or interference) of cats.  Cats also have been 
    known to pick up the dreaded disease "Toxisplasmosis" (? spelling) from
    eating rodents.  
    
    I don't think that the leash law for cats means they expect to see ALL
    cats being walked on leashes down the sidewalks.  What I think they
    expect is that the law will cut down or (wouldn't it be nice) eliminate
    the abandoned, stray, diseased cats and kittens that are found
    everywhere (as this file can attest to in trying to find homes for many
    of these poor animals).  The responsible pet owner (cat or dog) will
    always make sure their pets have all the necessary innoculations and are
    spayed/neutered.
    
    .42 Take the local school children on an "outing" to the local shelter
    or pound to see reality.
    
    .40 Dog eaten by mountain lion may have been because it's normal prey
    was no longer available and it had no alternative.
    
    I take one of mine out on a leash occasionally but he wears a harness
    not a collar.  I'd never tie out a cat on anything in the yard.  That's
    asking for trouble.
    
    Pat
    
    

    I grew up way out in the country, where almost all cats, pets or not,
    are working animals. That means they're outside and are rodent control
    specialists. I don't think I ever knew indoor only cats, until one my
    parents have was injured and didn't want to go out anymore. The idea of
    putting a cat on a lease is quite absurd under those conditions. 
    
    Now I have 2 indoor only purebred cats which I wouldn't consider
    letting out, but if I lived in the sort of area where I grew up
    (no roads, just fields and woods) I'm not sure I would insist on
    indoor only cats.
    
    As I have always understood it, dogs are considered domesticated
    animals by law-making bodies, but cats never were considered
    domesticated. That viewpoint now appears to be changing, at least in
    urban areas. 
                                                                    
    I'm not sure I could support a lease law for cats. That seems to me to
    be unwarranted government interference in my life. Rodent control is
    still important in more urban areas. What is going to happen if there
    is a sharp increase in rats, etc. due to not as many cats being
    hunters? 
          
    I don't think there are any clear answers.
    
    Tamzen

    RE: .45
    
    >You know, my neighbors' kids are doing more damage to my yard than
    >my cats. Isn't that a shame? There were days that I wanted to put
    >up a fence to keep the kids out. 
    
    I'd kind of like to put some of the neighborhood urchins on a leash,
    as I'm getting a bit sick of having my home broken into, my property
    vandilized and bagged yard debris (i.e., leaves) set on fire. I still
    get irrational when I think about the little b*stards that were
    throwing snowballs at my cats (and my neighbor's cat) that were sitting
    on the windowsills inside their own homes. Had I been able to catch
    them, they would have been dead.
    
    
    Deb

    Lets face it, uncontrolled dogs, cats or kids are a pain!

    Will someone from the "opposition" please explain something to me.
    Do the "outdoor cat" folks honestly believe that cats and dogs are
    NOT exposed to dangers outside.  Do they really believe that their
    pets are NOT more likely to pick up diseases, get caught in traps,
    be run over, get in fights, be victims of abuse etc etc etc.
      Some of you folks seem to really love your cats so I can't believe
    that its a matter of not caring for you pets.  I know most of you
    do care or you wouldn't be writing here.  
      Do you really believe that cats are outdoor animals?  Or is the
    opposition to this idea of a leash law just being angry with the
    government for trying to regulate this aspect of your life.  If
    so, why aren't you angry with dog leash laws or mandatory car
    inspections etc.
      My attitude is that you have to live with whatever you do.  So
    although I'm against letting animals run and will debate that issue
    with you, I respect your right to your opinion.  I just can't under-
    stand it.
      Nancy DC
    

    Nancy,  Proponents of both sides of the indoor/outdoor issue
    (or should I call it battle? (-;  ) have expressed their
    opinions, reasonings, etc. many times in this conference.
    I direct you to note #8 for starters.  That is the INDOOR/OUTDOOR
    note.
    
    Donna

    I still don't have an answer to my question.  After scanning 53
    responses (meaning I may have missed a few things) I have come to
    the conclusion that most of these folks are in favor of restraining
    their cats.  
      Opposition to requiring cats to be kept indoors or leashed have
    included the following:
    1. Cats control the rodent population (certainly a very valid reason)
    2. It is "unnatural" to restrain cats
    3. It is more dangerous to put a collar on your cat or to leave
    the cat unsupervised in the yard on a leash.
    
      That's about it.  In response to the danger of getting hit by
    cars, I saw such comments as "its life" and "the animal is stupid".
    I haven't seen anyone dispute the fact that cats are more likely to
    pick up diseases, get attacked by other animals, get hit by cars,
    be abused by "cat haters" (and is far more socially acceptable to
    hate cats than dogs - just look at the "I love cats, dead ones"
    bumper stickers you see or the new "crushed kitty" toy to hang out
    of your door or trunk), be grabbed for research etc etc etc.
      So my question remains.  Do the people who feel so strongly about
    letting their cats run free honestly believe that these dangers
    do not exist or that it simply will not happen to their pets, or
    what?  
      Nancy DC
    

    Also,  note 250 is a little bit older note on leashing,
    titled "Should Cats be Leashed?".   Note #257 is also
    an indoor vs. outdoor note.

    As I told you yesterday over the phone, I mistakenly thought
    you referred to .8 and not note 8.  I'm new and haven't quite
    learned it all yet.  I'll drop it.
     N
    

    Stop worrying and think naturally how things exist.  Then 
    you will see the light.   If you think of Humankind as part
    of Nature you will not have a conflict.  Cats have existed
    before Humans and have not done as much damage as have Humans.
    Doesn't that in itself speak of how responsible they are?  
    Why do most people think cats or for that matter animals are
    dumb.  They are just like humans.  They need to be taught/
    educated not imprisoned.  If you taught your cat to be careful,
    or how to avoid, or how to get out of the situations you worry 
    about you and your cat will be better of.  
    
    Forever free, (RUMI) � and Puma.

    I think we should all agree to disagree ;-)
    
    While it is a lovely sight to see a cat wondering about the joys
    of the world around him, reality is that I am a worry-wort.  If
    I let my girls out, I would worry myself sick about them in ten
    minutes or less.  That doesn't mean that everybody's cat shouldn't
    go outside, it just means that if I am to maintain some sanity,
    mine shouldn't.  I had a Siamese for 19 years who my Mom and Dad
    took out on a leash.  That cat had a blast out in the yard, and
    I don't think she ever realized that she shouldn't be leashed.
    She used to pick up her leash and drop it at my mother's feet
    when she wanted to go out!!! Each person must do what they feel
    most comfortable with.  Perhaps in urban areas, a leash law wouldn't
    be a bad thing, since it would remove cats from many man-made dangers.
    But stray cats should not be euthanized.  The city/state should
    start programs to find homes for these animals.  But alas, votes
    and dollars twixt are torn.....
    
    Mary-Michael 

         Let's see,  we put dogs on leashes to keep them from getting
    run over by cars, now we put cats on leashes to keep them out of
    the road. Next it will be all skunks, deer, squirrels etc.. Many
    humans walk into streets without looking and are killed each year.
    Should humans be required to be on leashes also??  Isn't human life
    more important than the other animals and shouldn't me move to protect them
    whether they want it or not???  Before some of you start flamming
    and foaming at the mouth ;-) you should know that most of that was
    said tongue-in-cheek but when you think about it it may not be too
    far fetched.  Take for instance if a lot of children were kidnapped
    from a small town or if a lot of kids were getting hit by cars and
    parents got real scared that theirs or their neighbors might be
    next and passed a law requiring all children from 0-12 years to
    be on leashes when outside.  Where is our society headed??  Should
    we all be caged to protect ourselves??
       Merry Christmas
    
     

    re 62
    	It would be great if we could be protected from ourselves.!!!!!!
    Afterall, we are the ones that cause most of the problems related
    to this conference and so many others..Cages would be a great idea.
    	Why is it that you are only looking at one issue? (ie: cats
    being run over by cars.) Yes it is a problem, but not the only one.
    Many of the notes pointed out all other problems related to animals
    left outside.
    
    As for human life being more important than the other
    animals.............Well, I personally do not think so. I can not
    place a human life over an animals, no more than an animal over
    a human. They live hand in hand. One
    is no more important than the other......(don't critisize me for
    saying that. Please do'nt say something like.." What about close
    freinds, family, or your spouse? Are they not more important than
    the other animals?" Course they are. I would give my life for them,
    but on the other hand, that does not make animals any less "important".
    They are part of this life, and we, should all change that headset
    that human life is more valuable than animals.....(my thought only)
    Perhaps if people started seeing animals on the same level, then
    they would understand the responsibility .
               
    	We have a responsibility..... Maybe putting deer on leashes
    is a bit off, but if you look around, you can see that times are
    changing. We have to solve some of the problems we are causing....
    And people are doing their best to solve some of the problems. I
    admire many of the people in here for being so caring and responsible.
    
    	I think, the main issue here is domestic animals. We accepted
    the responsibility of breeding and befreinding them, so we should
    help solve the issue in whatever way we can. Maybe it is not a perfect
    solution, but until someone comes up with a better way of solving
    the problem, it may not be a bad idea.
    curt
    

    Our town only has a leash law for dogs - but our condo association
    has a pooper scooper law - they go hand in hand.  Your dog poops
    anywhere, you must pick it up.

    All right Curt!!!!!!!!!!!   I feel the same way about human life
    and animal life.  It drives me crazy to hear people saying that
    animal life is worth less than humans.  And that kind of egocentric
    and arrogant attitude has gotten the world in an awful state.  I
    remember listening to a sermon my minister was giving about the
    loss of rain forest and the effect on the ecology.  I remember
    thinking about folks have to make a choice between the ecosystem
    and starvation.  Then I realized that I had to go back another step.
    As the most highly evolved form of life (that we know of) and the
    most capable of effecting our world on a global scale, we have a
    responsibility as a race to this world.  That means we have a
    responsibility to limit our procreation to a level that our world
    can support, etc.
      And one other thing about those folks who feel humans are so
    superior and that is justification for trashing our world - when
    the system is unbalanced or destroyed, it doesn't recognize our
    superiority.  We are a part of the same system and what effects
    one aspect effects all.
      Goodness!  What am I doing on this soapbox!!!!!  I'd better
    get off now!
      Thanks
       Nancy DC
    

    WoW!
    	The last time I wrote a note about animals and humans being
    on the same level, I was criticized for it... I am glad others feel
    the same as me..................
    ps. Loved your note. could not say it better if I tried.
    curt
    

    re 58
    	I agree with you to a point, but........
    	
    	Altough I feel animals do need training of some sort, I do not
    feel it is appropiate to think they can cure this problem without
    human intervention. You can very easily train a dog to avoid crossing
    roads, but it is at time quite difficult do do the same with a cat.
    (especially an unaltered male cat that roams.)
    
    	How do you train an unfixed female cat (outside) to not become
    pregnant? I think it is a bit unrealistic to do so. You can train
    your cat to stay within the confine of your yard without much problem,
    but most people do not take the time to do so with cats. In my mind,
    there is a vast difference with people who own dogs and cats. I
    feel people take more time with dogs and train them. Cats seem to
    be given less time. (maybe it is their so called "independence")
                            
    	Maybe I have read your note incorrectly. I apologise if I have
    done so. If i didn't read incorrectly, how do you teach your cat
    to stop roaming, stop becoming impregnating, or spreading disease?
    
    curt
    

    re .65
    
    BRAVO!!!! I have always felt that animals were equal to and in some
    cases worth more than many humans I know.  As for procreation, we
    (humans) are a species out of control!  Just look at the damage
    we have inflicted upon this beautiful earth and it's clear that
    there are just too many of us spreading our polution and waste.
    
    All other animals live and survive in harmony with the earth, only
    us humans seem to work against it.  With that in mind how can anyone
    feel that humans are worth more!
    
    Jeanne, Cali, Sam and Sweetie
    
        

     Re: .67
        
    You are absolutely right.  There is no one solution which 
    provides all the answers otherwise we would not be having
    this discussion.  What I am trying to point out is that
    it is a better solution on the whole.
    
    Think about this,  we (humans) also have most of the 
    problems (unwanted pregnancies and spread of disease;
    see abortion and aids issues all around us) you mention.  
    We are all animals (for those of us who have forgotten 
    this,2yes we indeed are).  Then why do we (meaning various 
    organizations and associations) say that we can solve 
    these problems of ours (humans) by better education, why 
    not take the easy (in my opinion) approach and just put 
    a leash on all the people who cause unwanted pregnancies 
    (male and female) and those who spread diseases.  Why do
    we have to different standards for us and the rest of the 
    animal kingdom?  
    
    Anyway bottom line is that it is up to each individual to
    find out the best solution that can work most of the time
    with out having any moral conflicts with oneself.   

    re. -1
    
    *What* is a better solution?  I'm not sure what you mean.
    
    Donna

    
    Okay, if human life is not more valuable than an animal's, what
    would you do if an animal and a human walked out in front of your
    car and you only had the option of hitting one and sparing the other?
    Would it be a tossup?  Would you hit the human?
    
    Most people would spare the human and hit the animal I believe.
    The thing is, humans are not necessarily any better than animals,
    but according to many of our religious beliefs (wow, could this
    be a rathole!) humans have souls and animals do not.  There are
    many religions and beliefs, and I am not attempting to say that
    one is right or wrong.  The point is, people value human life more.
    Of course, this does not mean that we have the right to ruin our
    environment.  
    
    If people really believe that animals should not be restricted by
    our rules, then I suggest we repeal the leash law for dogs - since
    I'm sure dog owners can come up with many reasons (similar to those
    listed about cats) that their dogs should be free.  Education would
    probably be the best solution for now, but many people do not want
    to listen.  Unwanted litters could be the result of a large number
    of male cat owners who feel inside that "my cat can't get pregnant,
    why should I spend the bucks and alter the cat.  It won't be my
    problem if he gets another cat pregnant, that owner should have
    fixed their cat."  I'm sure this sentiment does not exist with those
    in this conference.  You all seem very caring.  It is those that
    refuse to take care of their pets that cause the major problem.
    
    Both points of view are quite interesting in this note.  It seems
    like this is one of those issue (similar to abortion) that both
    sides feel quite strongly about.
    
    Rick  8^)     (Have a nice holiday!) 
    
    

    .69
    	in re to your question: "why do we have to have different standars
    for us and the rest of the animal kingdom?"
    	Because "we" (the humans who are not always so humane) have
    created this mess. I do not think I will bore everyone out there
    with repetition of all that we have done. The difference between
    us and them (animals) is that we should be responsible for our actions.
    We caused so much of it, and we should fix it. We can not expect
    animals to fix that which they know nothing about.
    	Putting a leash on those unresponsible persons will fix nothing.
    Restricting their callous ways will help. (ie: fining, laws, and
    education) I do disagree with you on your last point because many
    do not give a d___ about solutions. Many just want the "PET" for
    the sake of it without caring, responsibility, nor thought. Some
    people need guidance. Leaving it up to the individual will cause
    more problems..... Look into previous notes in canine and feline
    for examples. There are too many out there that have no idea of
    the conciquences of their actions.
    curt
    

    I just recently had a conversation with some co-workers and told
    them about the stray that we (collectively with help of feliners)
    just had fixed and cleaned up.  They both could not believe that
    I would actually spend my hard earned money on some cat that I
    eventually gave away - they just could not understand it.  I told
    them it takes time, money and caring to have a pet - they asked
    how much it cost for spaying - I told them.  One of them chirped
    in and said "So why don't you just get a male cat - then you don't
    have to have him fixed!"  Why are people just so stupid!!!!!!
    Another one said - the money we spent on the cat could have fed
    6 kids for 2 months - SOOOO WHAT!  I don't see the point of this
    comparison.  
    
    I agree that we should agree to disagree about the leash law and
    indoor/outdoor - it's like declawing, abortion, religion and politics -
    don't talk about them with people you like.  The leash law is just one
    step in the right direction, education is also necessary. 

    re. 69
    I agree that the best solution is for each individual to find what
    works best for him/her.  Unfortunately, the majority of humanity,
    for whatever reason, fails to take responsibilty for their own lives
    unless forced into it.  There are a large number of laws and
    regulations designed to enforce safety.  These regulations would
    not be necessary if humans either knew all they needed to know
    (think about all the FAA regs that protect you, do you know everything
    about airplanes and flying?) or had the time or inclination to do
    all they needed to do to be safe.  (how about mandatory car
    inspections!)
      As far as your comments about leashing humans and other wild
    animals.  I find myself becoming rather impatient with your comments.
    If you can't contribute to the discussion with reasonable suggestions
    please refrain.
      Thanks.
       Nancy DC

    Unfortunately, for many people, it is too much money or too much
    trouble.  To alot of folks pets are just animals without value,
    just another possesion, to be thrown out when they break or become
    too much trouble or no longer interest their owners.  Plus there
    is the notion that cats are "independent" and are not affectionate.
    We all know that's not true.  But many folks get cats because they
    don't want the trouble of taking care of a dog.  And as someone
    else commented, many people get male dogs and cats because they
    mistakenly believe that they don't need to neuter males.  (and boy,
    there's nothing more obnoxious than a whole dog sticking his nose
    in your crotch, or humping your leg! UGH!).
      The answer is gentle education.  You've already started that when
    you got a copy of "Why spay or neuter your Pet" from me and gave
    it to your friend.  We have to let people know that there is a good
    reason to neuter their pets and that these animals have personalities
    and feel pain and suffering just like we do.  Many people don't
    realize that animals suffer!  They just never thought about it.
      The MSPCA has found that exposing children to animals early in
    life increases the chances that those children will grow up to be
    adults who care about animals!  So they have educational programs
    that start in the elementary schools.  
      So, keep talking.  Come up with good solid reasons to spay and
    neuter and find a way to get through to these people.  And remember,
    you get more with honey than vinegar.
      Good luck!
        Nancy DC

    Yes, let's just agree to disagree on this issue.  We are getting
    nowhere here.
    
    And in answer to someone's question as to what we would do if faced
    with hitting both a human and an animal; well, I for one would try
    to avoid them both and probably go crashing into a tree or telephone
    pole and end up killing myself instead!
    
    A lot of people out there adopt or purchase a pet without considering
    the amount of time and responsibility that goes into owning it.
    What those types of people really should have purchased in the first
    place is a stuffed animal.
    
    After finally getting the stray cat population in my neighborhood
    cleaned up and taken to shelters, I am hoping that the new year
    offers brighter futures for the homeless animals out there,
    
    /Roberta
    

    I just have to relate an incident that happened to me on the way
    home yesterday.  
      I spied a little grey kitten on the MEDIAN STRIP of 495 south!
    I was so shocked that by the time I had decided to do something
    I was too far down the road to just stop. I went to Rt 9, hooked
    around onto 495 N up to Rt 20 and turned around again and covered
    the same stretch of 495 S looking for the kitten all the time 
    praying that the guy behind me would stay far enough off my tail
    so I could slow down and pull off if I spotted the kitten.
    
      Well, I couldn't find the poor thing.  I was absolutely heartsick!
    and so frustrated with myself for not reacting fast enough the first
    time to have stopped and hopefully picked it up.  I will, of course,
    look again today and the next day and every day I come through now.
    How a kitten ever got across 495 I'll never know, but I sincerely
    hope if he did it once he can do it again.
    
      'Nuff said.
    
      Nancy DC