Conference misery::feline_v1

    Hi Kate,
    
    Please don't be too rough on us cat owners, we all do what we feel
    is best for our kitties.  Personally, I feed the birds, chipmunks
    and woodchucks in my area and don't want my cats out to kill them
    off but many cat owners feel differently and we should all respect
    each others opinions.  After all, you've heard the expression "it
    takes all kinds to make the world go round!" and that's what makes
    life interesting, don't you think?
    
    As far as your description of Bandit, he sounds rather normal to
    me.  Although some cats are very independent many are not and will
    require much of your time and patience.  If you do get another kitten
    you should be very specific in your desires for an independent,
    quiet cat that does not crave too much human affection or attention.
     The so called lap cats (which I personally enjoy) won't be for
    you!  They need and love to be part of your life and will be unhappy
    if you reject or shun them.  
    
    I am happy for you that you want another kitten, but please think
    this through carefully.  I think that you may need a little more
    information about cats in general before you make your final decision.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    Jeanne, Cali and Sam
    
    P.S. Cali is one of those independent cats but even she has been
    know to purr in ones ear at 3:00 in the morning and sit on my newspaper
    while I am trying to read it!
    

    
    Guess I'm alone in this theory, but from your description of what
    you disliked about your kitten, I don't think you should get another.
    
    Your kitten did typical kitten things, you didn't like them so you
    gave it away.  Now you want another?  Seems like it will end the
    same way.
    
    Kittens can be dependent, they can grow up to be independent cats.
    If you really have your heart set on a feline, get a cat, not a
    kitten.  Its personality will be pretty much developed, you can
    pick an independent one, no surprises.
    
    I just really don't think a typical kitten will be right for you.
    

    I, too, agree.  I was just wondering why you might think that a
    
    "black" kitten/cat would be any different from the spotted kitten
    
    you had?  That kitten sounded normal to me also.  If it's color
    
    you are interested in (black), maybe a black puppy would suit.
    
    
    E.T.

  I definitely agree that her first kitten was typical, and that
  she shouldn't expect any other kitten to be any different.

  But adult cats are usually more independent. Also, since their
  personalities are already developed, perhaps Kate could
  find someone with an adult black cat that needs a new home.
  Then she could meet the cat before she agreed to take it,
  and by observing the cat in its current home, she'd know
  how it was likely to behave in her house.
  
  We frequently see postings from people who are moving, or
  have a spouse or child with allergies, etc. Maybe one of these
  cats would be a good choice for Kate.

    Yet another vote not to get yourself another cat.  The kitten sounded
    pretty much like my Niniane. While some people don't care much for
    cats that need that much affection, I personally enjoy it very much.
    As some one else said earlier, it takes all kinds.  Even an older
    cat, who has probably been shuffled around a bit, will need some
    attention and affection to feel comfortable in it's new surroundings.
    
    However, what puzzles me is that, in my opinion, there is probably
    nothing more dependent and exhausting than a small puppy.  They
    crave affection, need to be excercised every day, are much more
    difficult to house train, and have about the same potential for
    destruction of valuable objects as a small kitten (kittens have
    an edge in terms of agility and persistence, however ;-)
    
    Perhaps you should examine whether or not you really like cats
    (which is perfectly ok, I'm not particularly enamoured of dogs
    myself) before you get another.  Otherwise, you stand to make yourself
    and the animal miserable.
    
    Mary-Michael

    Re .8
    
    Can you please come tell my Elmo that now that he is over 6 months
    old that he is supposed to find me boring.  And that he is no longer
    supposed to be ANNOYING.
    
    ********************************************************************
    
    Re:  The topic of this note
    
    I can't help thinking of the story JoAnne wrote in about Rock and
    Annie, and the woman who adopted them and then forgot to take her
    medication.  Kate should probably read up a little about what it
    takes to be owned by a cat before she decides that this is what
    she wants to do.
    
    	-Nancy-mother-of-7-month-old-Elmo-who-likes-to-sleep-all-day-and
    	play-with-mom's-face-all-night
    
    

    My two cents, if you are more of a dog person/lover, then get
    another dog vs a cat.  You have already tested your patience
    with a kitten and it didn't work so why get another?
    
    I have brought up dogs all my life and for a change (since I can't
    have dogs) bought a kitten last November and another 6 weeks ago.
    Like any little animal, it takes time, patience and a lot of love.
    I don't know with you, but with me, bringing up puppies you go
    through rough times (eg. chewing everything in site, peeing on floors,
    howling, etc).  If you had patience for this, assuming you did so,
    and not for a kitten who just wanted some loving, attention and
    yes, getting into things that he/she shouldn't, then again, in my
    opinion, another puppy would be best.
    
    I have to add this because just recently I visited friends of my
    fiance and they have a dog.  This dog mainly stays tied up in the
    cellar and tied up outside.  Now, I know about the leash law 
    but keeping an animal in the cellar all day long and let out on
    a leash for a little while and back down cellar!! THEN WHY
    HAVE A PET IF YOU CAN'T TAKE THE TIME TO LOVE THEM!!!
    
    I know I got off the track but the point is, kitten or puppy, they all
    need the same kind of love.  To each his/her own preference to
    which that might be, but please since the 1st kitten was 'normal'
    like any other, then why get another?    Like other noters suggested,
    a grown cat might be better but my vote is a puppy!
    
    Sue
                                           
    

    well, for 2 cents and a firm offer of a loving home, I'd do something
    'despicable'!!!!
    
    Every morning and every evening of the last two work-weeks my back
    yard has contained the MOST gorgeous totally black cat I have ever
    seen in my life!  It is either a female or a neutered male, has
    acid-yellow eyes, and its coat is highly glossy and very thick --
    somewhere between what you'd find on a Russian Blue and a Somali.
    Her [for convenience] face and body are very long and lean and oriental
    looking.
    
    She is well fed and her coat is glossy.  She _must_ belong to someone.
    However, she's out behind my house in all weather arriving at precisely
    6:40 every work morning and departing sometime around 5:45.  My
    yard backs onto rte.101A [Amherst St] Nashua near the Vo-Tech and
    I worry...
    
    No collar either.  I've asked around the neighborhood, but no one
    knows what cat I'm talking about.  She politely accepted my offer
    of a rest inside until she realised that I already had three cats;
    at which time she politely asked that I let her take her leave.
    
    She is not a cuddle-kitty, but enjoys having conversations with
    me after work out by the wood-pile.
    
      Ann

    re .12
    
    You can say that again!  I have two dogs and two cats and going
    thru kittenhood was a snap compared with going thru puppyhood.
    
    I don't think the question here is whether kittens or puppies would
    be more or less troublesome for Kate but whether Kate really wants
    what a cat "is".  Sometimes you can never take the kitten out of
    the cat and Kate needs to understand that even the most independent
    adult cat is still a cat and will sometimes wake you up at night,
    walk on your reading material, walk on the tables, steal pens and
    other small items, be fussy about eating, leave cat hairs on your
    furniture, steal food from your plate and demand attention at the
    most inconvenient times.
    
    If Kate likes all of the above and finds it cute like the rest of
    us feliners, then she wants a cat/kitten.  If these things sound
    troublesome to her, then she needs to learn more and do some serious
    thinking before getting another cat or kitten.
    
    Jeanne, Cali and Sam
    

    Please dont misunderstand me (re: 1881.3). I was not saying I didnt
    want any affection or that I want to be ignored. Then why bother
    with a cat? Get a fish. What I did say was that AT THE TIME: I was
    not emotionally ready to deal with a cat's dependence. Obviously
    that has changed, and I'm NOW ready to have an animal that requires
    some dependence. Please folks dont make me out the hatchet-lady
    type. I AM NOT. I have had several dogs, and they certainly require
    a lot of time, effort AND patience. So I think I know what is involved
    with caring for any animal, though not cats specifically. I think
    all animals have different personalities..and I think legitimately
    Bandit and I did not click, in any way. I dont think that disqualifies
    me from having a pet. It does mean I take A LOT of time before I bring one
    home. I am NOT into getting an "experiment" and then dumping it
    when it gets rough; but in my defense, as I said a friend gave me this
    cat and pushed me into keeping it. I was not in a frame of mind
    to argue about the idea. Again in my defense, at the time I had
    just ended a three year relationship and I was also having medical problems
    as in tumors (and told "CANCER", it was a frightening time). My
    friend litterally pushed that cat on me as a good idea. It sadly
    was not. Again, that was 2 years ago, and I think I can capably
    take care of a pet...so I am looking for one.
                                                       
    I have enjoyed the cats that my friends have. I like them for their
    curiosity and even their bizarre facination with my shoe laces for
    2 hours before they pounce on them because I moved my feet. I dont
    think it is being awful to not want my eyelashes chewed. How one
    stops that? I have no idea, so I'm in this notes file to find out
    how you break a cat's NASTY habits without hurting them on a psychological
    level (I would NEVER physically harm a cat..but I was told the way
    to break BANDIT of what he did was to spray him with water from
    a plant spritzer..it terrorized him. I didnt enjoy trying to discipline
    a cat that way...no fun for me or the cat). So I am looking thru
    this file to see how people care for cats so that I dont deal with
    a repeat performance that you are suggesting will happen because
    you state I didnt like "typical kitten" mannerisms, BEFORE I get
    another one. 
    
    And as you suggested, I have seriously considered getting a cat,
    not a kitten. I just am not sure. So again, reading this conference
    to help out. Believe me, (though I get the feeling you may not), the
    decision to consider getting a cat has not been an overnite one.
    I have thought on this for at least a year, and I am STILL considering
    it. I dont intend to rush out and get one tomorrow. If someone can/does
    give me the info on breeders I asked, I will talk to those people
    before I even consider buying. And I have started reading books
    on cats, to find out the different breeds traits, etc. And to have
    an idea of exactly what I am getting into. I have talked to my friends
    on their cats, etc. to also get an idea of what a cat "is"; and
    this time not the well-meaning ones who tell me "how easy cats are"
    and how there's "little effort in caring for them, nothing like
    a dog". I would like to do it right this time. For my sake and sanity
    and mostly in fairness to the cat I bring home. 
    
    So, if being cautious and stating some things I dont like is being
    a cat hater..then so be it. But I dont think I am. Do I want a cat
    that is totally independent? Not really, but neither do I want a
    cat that is so dependent it waits for me to come home, must be
    constantly under my feet (literally) to assure itself I am there.
    It is why I dont want a dog right now either. If a kitten is like
    that at first, fine!! As I said I can be supportive of that now.
    But do I want a cat that is always like that? No. My friend who
    gave me the kitten in the first place told me that my kitten was
    a little unusual, but that all cats are always dependent...so I have
    hesitated to get one... yet from the notes in here and from other
    friends cats..it seems that most cats are not that hyper all their
    lives. Bizarre yes, glued to you no (regarding "bizarre", I use the
    term loosely).    :-)
    
    If you all are of the opinion I shouldn't have a cat. Then that's
    okay too. I take the critism and opinions as help in my final decision.
    Please believe that I would not get a pet (any kind) just to satisfy
    some curiosity or misplaced "want". I think that is cruel. 
    
    Thanks for the help so far, everyone. It DOES help in making the
    right decision (but I still need help on some breeders)!
    
    Kate

    Gosh Karen, by your description of what dogs do, I could sware that
    you have met MY DOGS except you forgot a few like:
    
                    dig up the newly planted shrubery
                    dig enormous holes right outside the door
                    jump and knock you over onto the ground
                    steal meat off the grill
                    run and bang into the screenhouse (there go the
                                                       screens!!)  etc...
    
    Dogs are absolutely more work and more troublesome than cats, but
    still some people just don't care for cats as much.  I don't understand
    why but that's the way they are. 
    
    Personally, I find my relationship with my cats to be better than
    with my dogs.  Maybe I deal better with less assertive creatures
    because I myself am not an assertive person.  Maybe assertive, get
    up and go type people relate to dogs better than to cats?  I also
    think men relate better with dogs than with cats.  Any opinions
    on this??  
    
    Jeanne, (who loves her dogs but better understands her cats!)
    
    
    
    

    I dont think a black cat would be any different from the previous
    one, in terms of color defining personality. I simply think black
    cats are pretty (and no I wouldnt want a black dog..the color doesnt
    appeal to me there). 
    
    Kate

First, you are right in expecting cat owners to keep their cats off your
property - I say this as a cat owner who makes sure my cats and dog do not
invade other's territories....it is simply good manners.  No cat should have
the right to bother others' properties and the solution is to keep them in.
Or, move to the country far enough away from others that your cats won't
bother your neighbors....anything else is really bad manners.

Second, you don't want a kitten. period. If you get anything of the feline
persuasion, get a cat at least 9 months old, spayed, and litter-box trained.
However, I get the feeling you are not really ready to allow a cat to be
a cat, and I would suggest you get a nice statue, painting, or something
else that would add beauty to your environment and not disturb you the way
the kitten did - cats can be as frisky as kittens when they feel good...and
they can be just as needy for a good lap and some loving - that's what I
like about them.

    Well thanks all for all the responses. I think that most of you
    feel that I should not have a cat. But"no" to several of you who
    feel that a puppy is the answer. As much as I admit to not
    understanding cats, but trying to, those of you who feel a puppy
    will work, dont know dogs at all. They require initally constant
    training AND undivided attention, all the time. I am curious why
    Sue thinks I should get a dog, after all her comments that "kitten
    or puppy, they all need the same kind of love". Since she thinks
    (and others), that I would not love a cat, then why suggest a dog
    instead? Don't you think that would be equally ignorant since you
    are suggesting I wouldn't take the time to love a cat? Is it better
    to ignore a dog? I personally dont think so. 
    
    Regarding the list of doggie traits from Karen, well my dogs didnt
    bark, or chew things either. But then at the time I could spend
    all day training them not to. And believe me it takes endurance
    and saintly patience to do that!! But I did it. Yep you better believe
    they stare at you while you eat..and drool too. And they do
    ecstatically jump on you when you get home..its one reason to love
    them. They love you back (even though they did smell that Kibbles
    n'bits!). I have no desire to have a dog right now, because I cannot
    give it the hours needed to train it to not do all that chewing,
    etc. Most dogs do it when they only have you nites (ie single working
    "parent") and they chew because they miss you, smell you around
    the house (ie, hide your shoes and underware!) and frankly I think
    sometimes to get even with you for leaving them alone. My understanding
    was that cats are easier to train when you can't give them the daytime
    hours to "break" them in; that you can work and also get a reasonably
    non-lonely, but affectionate pet. Dogs seem to always be lonely while 
    you are away from them. I understood cats to be dependent enough to 
    "entertain" themselves better, dogs seem to just mope instead. I
    thought that given being now ready to own a cat, that it would make
    a better pet for a single person who has no choice but to be out
    of the house from 6:00 to 7:00, in order to pay the electric bills.
    I like the antics of cats, or at least most of them (I STILL dont
    like eyelash chewing!! :-), and as far as them eating my food, well
    watching a cat try to eat fetuccine noodles is about as entertaining
    as you can get..its hilarious!.
    
    I guess since most of you think that it would be the cruelest of
    things to let Kate have a cat; I will abide by your opinions and
    not get involved in this discussion further. I do thank Karen and
    Jeanne for their positive mail, and perhaps by not being those 
    cat-people types I am suspicious of, and taking the time to read
    between the lines and see that Im not such an awful person. I think
    both of you seem to be PET lovers, period; and to maybe have understood
    a bit of where I was "coming" from and what I was saying and asking.
    (This goes for notes .1 and .2, but I forget who wrote those, sorry!!)
    
    Regarding the pedigrees, I don't think I said anyplace that I had
    to have one, Im not a snob. I simply stated that I was interested
    in them. I think black cats are pretty, that's all. Not a snipe
    at any breed or basic SPCA who-knows-what type of cat. I also was
    looking for a qualified breeder as a person to talk to about cats 
    and get a fair assessment of them, and avoid some of the misplaced
    "hype" that your friends give you and then turn around and say when
    its too late..."oh didnt I tell you, cats do....". And having majored
    in psychology, and taken classes on animal behavior, I dont think
    an animal's color predisposes it to having certain characteristics.
    I simply like that color on cats. Im allowed to, I hope anyway.
    
    So, thanks for the "advice"/opinions those mostly flaming/and those
    few positive. I'll try to take all of what you have said into
    consideration.
    
    PS - To whoever said "how about a stuffed animal". I already have
    22 bears, each with their own names and personalities. :-)....
    and I KNOW they have to be removed to someplace safe if I had a
    cat!!
    
    PSS - (a final comment) To Karen: thanks for that comment on teaching
    a dog very easily to obey (not sure about the easy part!?) and that
    the only think you can teach a cat is not to do it when you are
    looking!! I needed the laugh after most of these notes in here to
    me, and that IS something I have noticed about my friends cats..though
    in its way it tends to be a trait I like....it shows independence
    and determination..both things I admire very much.
                                     
    
    So okay, I guess I am labeled an irresponsible cat hater and stupid
    dog person (I still cannot believe that someone after flaming me
    for my PERCIEVED attitude and thinking it terrible for me to get
    a cat since she didnt feel I would love it...that they would suggest 
    I get a dog instead... that to me was an IGNORANT suggestion. Sorry, 
    that DID get me flaming. Dogs need as much, if not, more attention
    and as much love as your precious cats. And lack of love or
    cruelty to any animal is just plain dispicable to me. Not a single
    animal deserves better treatment or more love than another. Period).
    
    Thanks for all the help and comments. Take care everyone and enjoy
    those little furballs!
    
    Kate                                   
    
    

    Hang in there, Kate.  I think that some of the responses you have
    received (mine included, sorry) are because so many of us have had
    experiences with folks that take a cute kitten, and then the kitten
    grows up to be a cat - then - they don't want the cat any more,
    etc.
    
    It sounded like someone "made" you take that kitten - it sounds
    like now you want this animal because you want it.
    
    I can only say, that each and every cat is different - you could
    end up with a very clingy dependent one or a very indepenent one.
    I have 15 - each of them varies in depency.  The ones that need
    more get more - the ones that want the amount they want, get that
    amount (within reason - my reason).
    
    Black cats are WONDERFUL - I have 3 plus a black and white boy.
    All 4 are males!!  As a noter mentioned, if you have a pair, they
    generally will rquire less from you and take from each other, unless
    one if very, very dependent.
    
    I can help you with breeders if you are interested - Bombays are
    great -  some breeds require more attention than others.  There
    is a Cat Show coming up in Montvale New Jersey on the 29th & 30th
    of October.  If you live in that area, maybe you could stop by there
    and see what's around - I thought you said you were not from the
    North ?? - maybe send me mail or call - we can talk.
    
    Elaine
    

    Well Elaine, you just put in the response that I was going to put
    in.  There are a few bombay breeders in CFF (Cat Fancier's Federation)
    and if you would like, I can get you their names.  There are also
    burmese breeders and a few oriental shorthair breeders (different
    from siamese.  all one color including black).  If you would like
    some information on them, then give me a call.  Either that, or
    take a trip to Montville, NJ.  It's lots of fun.
    
    Holly
    
    

    This is to 1881.24..
    
    Elaine, I just talked with you on the phone. Thanks A LOT for the
    encouraging talk and help!! I thought I would add this since maybe
    some others were/are of that opinion, regarding what you said about
    taking a cute kitten and then when it grows up ditching it... that
    that's what I did.
    
    So this is directed to them, not you really:
    
    To get fire-torched again :-), I was given a 9 week old kitten,
    it was the kitten's extreme dependence that I could not handle 
    AT THAT TIME, given that I was going thru a terribly emotional
    time myself. The friend who gave it to me thought it would cheer
    me up...it only made me more depressed and anxious since I did not
    know how to handle a kitten or help Bandit with his emotional needs.
    Mine were a wreck at the time, I certainly wasn't too prepared to
    deal with another's emotions or needs. My friend's answer to me
    asking what to do with this little creature, how to take care of
    it..was, to tell me to get a 2nd one. Not the answer I was looking
    for!!
    
    I did not keep the cat for long; in fact all of 3 weeks. I didn't
    think it was fair to subject Bandit to my problems or hurts and
    stress. I also didnt think at the time a new kitten coming from
    a shelter needed a distraught and frustrated owner who couldnt give
    it the attention it seemed to desperately need. I thought, at the
    time, that it was best I get it into a good home, ASAP. Maybe I
    should have kept it longer to learn to grow with him, but again
    I was not ready to try. So I took what I thought was the best path;
    which was to put an add in a paper and look for the right type of
    owner for him. I interviewed all of them and also told them what
    I had dealt with and what Bandit's traits were. Also what his favorite
    toys were..walnuts in the shell and paper shopping bags..he didnt
    seem to be into purchased cat toys..too boring, and not noisy enough
    I guess.
    
    I ended up giving him to a family with two children; and I talked
    to both children and their Mother before I gave him up. I tried,
    thats all I can tell you all. 
            
    So, no, I was not loving a cute kitten and then dumping an adult
    cat. And so other's know, (Elaine and I discussed this), I know
    that cats live to be 22 years old and since I'm not one to toss
    pets out because I'm bored with them, its another reason why I am
    trying to learn as much as I can. This isnt a dog that only lives
    mostly 10 years tops (and rarely that, which is really hard to have
    to live with as it is), it is something that is going to be around
    for a LONG, LONG time. I can't stand people who get dogs and then
    just discard them (I had a neighbor who lived in a small home with
    about 1/4 acre of ground, and thought sheep dogs were "cute" and
    fun. They are. But they also require a lot of exercise and a lot
    of grooming that mass of hair. He couldn't take that so got rid
    of it after it was a big 1 year old. I thought that rude at the
    time. You would think he would have taken the minimal time to find
    out first about sheep dogs, but he didnt. Beats me how someone can
    not know that those things get BIG, but...so he dumped a purebred
    English sheep dog at a shelter), and I think that is true of cats
    too. I thought at the time I was doing the best for Bandit, but
    believe me I still went thru a lot of guilt for "getting rid" of
    him; and I only got myself thru that by accepting that I wasnt the
    one who purchased him in the first place, and that hopefully I knew
    enough to place him somewhere as soon as possible where he was wanted
    and would be taken care of, and that I simply was not ready for
    a 20 + year commitment. I wasnt sure that I had those years to give
    anyway.
    
    So if any of you were thinking I was one of those BOZOs who think
    of animals as interesting diversions for awhile or what have you
    and then discard them when bored, please do not. I had Wendy (my
    dog) from when I was 7 years old until I was almost 20. And I still
    cant talk about her without missing her very much (Im now 32). So
    I dont consider animals to be diversions, I consider them to be
    pets and a member of the family.
    
    Okay?

    Alluded to me being a 'bozo'? Heck no!! Thought about a few other names..
    YES!  :-(
    
    Oh well, everyone to their opinion. 
    
    I AM UNSURE. I figure if I take as much time in learning about stereo
    equipment, VCR's and Cuisinarts before I make the final investment,
    then I owe at least the same time (three times as much!), AND
    consideration before I make a commitment to something living (cat,
    dog, hamsters, and yes, even fish...you'd be suprized at what you
    need to know about fish, esp. for salt water tanks!).
                                                              
    Kate (I got my asbestos booties & underware on!). 
    

    Hi Kate -
    
    I have avoided this note until now, but this looks like the time.
    I don't want a possible Feliner turned off before she starts.
    
    I have learned that the folks in this conference ALL feel very strongly
    about cats (and animals in general).  If you read through the whole
    conference (go ahead, take a month or two 8') you will find a lot
    of stories that point out the lack of such feelings among some others.
    Many of the members spend a LOT of time and money in support of
    animals, shelters, etc., and I think what you are seeing in some
    of the responses is a highly tuned defensive mechanism. Edd is right,
    insofar as my experience here has shown me, no one is truly out
    to get you as a bad guy.  What we are all sometimes prone to are
    not reading very carefully, reacting before sufficient thought is
    given to a message, and an inability to read between the lines.
    In an electronic medium, it isn't always easy to interpret what's
    behind the written word.  But after all, these are some of the most
    caring people you will ever find behind a cause.  So I second the
    welcome, and hope to see you (and your kitties?) around for a long
    time.
    
    BTW - I also second the responses suggesting two animals of any
    kind.  I have found that the added effort is small compared to the
    payoff. As a steward of my animals' welfare, I feel that my duty
    is to them first, me second where they are concerned (or I should
    not have them in the first place).  Having two (or more) definitely 
    helps the mental condition of the pets, especially when they are
    left alone for most of the day.  Doesn't hurt my attitude either.
    
    Again, welcome, and enjoy "Meower Power".
    
    Gary

For some reason reply is working differently today.

Murphy's Law I guess.  

Anyway, I would agree with people who spoke about aobserving
an adult cat.  I have 2.  Bandit (from a shelter when she was
1 1/2) - who is very independent and will come up for petting
but will prefer to lie near me on a couch or the floor, but is
not one for cuddling.  Smokey was 6 weeks old and a rescued
kitten - he is my shadow.  Bandit has been friendlier now that
she sees that Smokey gets attention by giving it, but still she
is QUIETLY affectionate.

Each cat is SO different.  Smokey at almost 6 months is larger
in size (smaller in weight) than Bandit and insists on being
between me and my book and on weekends decides 5:20 means I have
overslept.  Bandit will greet me as I come home and will occasionally
play tag with me, but is shyly affectionate.

Good luc in your search.  Perhaps, as others have said, you can
find someone who is looking for a home for a cat.  There are so MANY
that end up in shelters and breeders can always find buyers.

Cathy< Note 1881.30 by WEFXEM::COTE "It was a dark and stormy night..." >
                               -<       ?       >-


    Kate, I don't know how many more ways to say this. I don't believe
    anyone here thinks ill of you. I don't. You asked for honest opinions
    and you got them. There also seems to be a certain tempering of
    those in the 'no' camp as you've explained your situation further.
    
    Please take off your flame-suit and enjoy the company of some of
    the nicest people DEC has to offer.
    
    Edd

    Ok, I'll try this one more time.  First, I commend you for taking
    all of the time and effort you have to decide what right for you.
    I don't think anyone in this notesfile would take issue with you
    on that.  I would also second the suggestion of others in this file
    to get two (or one now and another later when you feel more
    comfortable).  My kitten was very dependent on my husband and I
    when we came home at night.  She expected us to play with her and
    pet her when we were both very tired after a day at work.  When
    we got a second cat to keep her company, she changed.  She still
    enjoys our company, but for the most part she prefers to play with
    her companion.  I know two cats sounds like more work, but actually
    it's easier.  It at least makes you feel less guilt ridden to go
    out on a Friday night ;-).  I will say one thing, the investment
    in time you make now will be more than rewarded to you by the
    unquestioning friendship of the feline(s) you choose.  And they
    are always full of fun, surprises, and tricks.  And yes, there are
    times mine go undisciplined.  How can you yell at a cat whose nose,
    mouth and whiskers are coated liberally with Kraft extra-thick cheese
    sauce?  Somehow yelling while tears are rolling down my face because
    I'm laughing so hard isn't terribly effective.  Don't be upset by
    us FELINE noters.  We all live and breath our kitties.  We trade
    pictures, have dinners, we know each other's cats.  We just want
    you to help you make the right decision.
    
    And if you do decide to get a kitten/cat(s), believe me, there's
    no better place to come for advice than FELINE!
    
    Good luck, and be sure to let us know what you decide.
    
    Mary-Michael

    
    
         Well I guess I missed this one....  Kate all I've got to say
    is go for it!!!!!!!  You can't sit at your terminal and tell all
    the reasons why or what was going on in your life when you had the
    kitten.  I think after all the thought that you've given it and
    being able to take all the replies you've gotten-that alone shows
    much patience and tolerance :^).  I think you'll be wonderful. 
    Now on to something else I took MUCH exception to a statement that
    was written:
    FLAME ON
          Re. 23
    
          "By the way (I'll probably really get in trouble for this
    one), you might want to avoid shelter cats.  ......--beware that
    shelter cats tend to have been neglected, abandoned, abused, been
    feral, or just been plain old pains in the neck.  ..."
    
           My first question is if you knew you were going to get into
    such trouble why did you even bother to right such a remark?  It's
    been ignored throughout the rest of the notes, too bad I saw it.
    
           I have heard some pretty ignorant statements but this one
    must rank somewhere in the top five!!!!!  You know people tend to
    forget that this is such an open conference.  There are many people
    that are read only members and some that are very impressionable.
    If you state something with some air of authority they will believe
    you.  And for the read onlys you'll never know what note they saw
    or if they saw any notes after it and what type of impression they
    got.  Whatever you put into this file can actually sway people's
    minds.  That's the reason that one statement is so dangerous.  If
    that statement has even swayed one person who was on their way to
    a shelter to give a cat or kitten a home instead of being put to
    sleep than it has done much much damage in my eyes.
           
          To compound the problem mentioned above the statement is a
    lie based on what I don't know.  To generalize and put them all
    in that basket is almost blasphemy.  Some are neglected (since when
    does that make a "crazy cat"?), some are abandoned (again the same
    ?), some are abused (because of that fact they may be better pets),
    been feral ( a feral kitten if brought in can act just like any
    other), or just been plain old pains in the neck.  The last one
    I love.  Let's see pain in the necks can mean they were clawing
    too much and clashed with the new interior, or were the most loveable
    cats but because of the owner being put in the hospital or nursing
    home and no other relatives to take care of it(pain in the neck)
    there she/he sits waiting......  We seem to have forgotten all the
    cats that are brought there because of allergies developed in the
    family or just plain no time for them or relocating etc....  There's
    a very high percentage of that.(oh and let's not forget a new baby!!)
    
          Also some people classify a pain in the neck cat as one being
    too independent.  Seems to me that's what Kate would like.  You
    did no one any service by your untrue statement especially the cats
    and kittens that have a hard enough time finding homes.  My advice
    to you is to go work at a shelter before you make any statements
    that are only a small part of what you're talking about.
                                      
    FLAME OFF BUT STILL SMOLDERING 
                                          kim

>    And now I read .19 and her comment about "getting a statue" and
>    can't help but feel bad that we might have alienated yet another
>    feline noter.
    
not intended to be an insult - I understand that many people think they
want a cat because it is beautiful to look at, but the cat has traits
that can be irritating....I really meant to consider other ways to add
visual beauty to the environment and consider the other aspects of
living with cats....if Kate has reviewed how she feels about owning
a cat, and is willing to accept the changes in mood and temperment that
come with the package - AND is willing to spend time with her cat, then
she really wants a cat...I just wish to encourage ANYONE who is thinking
about owning a cat to NOT adopt a cat unless they really want A CAT - 
not just some companion animal, but specifically A CAT.  NO animal comes
without problems and expense and hassles and irritations...you gotta want
it bad to give it the love it needs to thrive, even when the potted
plants are all upturned, the couch is shredded, and the coffee table
needs refinishing because of the cat....

Honestly no insult intended.    

    What! You mean the only "pain in the neck" cats come from shelters?
    Silly me!  I paid $125 for my loveable, terrorizing, endearing,
    aggravating, totally indispensable "pain in the neck"  cat!
    
    And I wouldn't trade her for anything in the world!!
    
    Mary-Michael

    re .35 and .23
    
    I feel that you both have good grounds to stand on although your
    opinions seem to be opposite.  
    
       It is true that some shelter cats can have terrible behavior
       problems.
    
       It is also true that some shelter cats can be wonderful, loving
       pets.
    
    I guess this is a case of buyer (adopter) beware.  Anyone going
    to a shelter should have a list specifying exactly what they want
    and what they are willing to live with in terms of potential behavior
    problems (just incase they do arise).  We need to remember that
    people who bring their pets to shelters don't always tell the truth
    about why they are giving up their pets.  
    
    Personally I have aquired two pets (1 dog, 1 cat) within the last
    3 years from people who were going to bring them to a shelter. One
    persons reason was "my landlord is going to through me out if he
    sees this cat one more time" and the other was "I'm moving to Pheonix
    in two weeks and I just can't see a heavy fured dog living there".
    
    In both cases I thought these reasons were strange but never thought
    to question why I saw other cats in the other apartment windows
    and why a dog couldn't live in Pheonix (after all, everything is
    air conditioned and this was supposedly an indoor dog).
    
    In both of these case, these animals turned out to have some very
    bad behavioral problems.  When I called the previous owner of the
    cat and explained what I was going thru, she said "well, he never
    did that at my house, if you don't like him, maybe you should take
    him to the humane society". It was real obvious that she had passed
    along her problem to me to either fix or get rid of.
    
    When I called the previous owner of the dog and told her that he
    seemed vicious and had bitten my husband twice in one day and that
    he would not let out in my own backyard without growling at me she
    said, "He never did that with us, and I don't want him back, maybe
    you should give him to someone else."  Talk about a repeat perfomance!
    Again, I was left to correct a situation that someone could not
    handle.  
    
    Dealing with these animals was very emotionally hard on my husband
    and I and I will not easily trust anyone else again when it comes
    to taking an animal. Yes, it can be very rewarding to take one of
    these animals and work thru the problems and have at the end a
    wonderful pet, but it's not for everyone. Personally, when I now
    hear "I'm moving, I developed allergies, or my new baby has allergies,
    I don't believe a word of it!  I guess that happens when you've
    been burned by some of the lousy people in this world who lie to
    get away from their problems.  
    
    As for Kate, if she does go to a shelter, I think that's wonderful
    but she should be very careful and thorough before making a choice
    to take a shelter kitty home.
    
    Jeanne, Cali and Sam  (p.s. Cali would have been a shelter kitty,
    like her 3 siblings if I had not taken her and she turned out to
    be wonderful.)
    
    
     
    
    

    Having worked at a shelter for a short period of time (very
    depressing), I concur with Jean.  I've always said that people make
    their own problems while abandoned/feral/sheltered animals are the
    result of people with problems.  They can't be blamed for their
    misfortune which is why I choose to donate my money to animal causes
    versus people causes.
    
    I love taming feral cats.  To me it's a challenge that reaps its
    rewards tenfold when you are successful.  I'm working on my latest
    rescue case now.  He came to me for the first time last night and
    let me pet him (of course the food dish in my hand helped a lot!).
    But that's a whole other tangent.
    
    I have two rescue cases and will be getting the pedigrees next
    month.  It will be nice to have a mixture and I will never stop
    helping the needy cats who require my assistance.  If you want
    a cat with a certain look or temperment, then a purebred will no
    doubt fill that requirement; however, I've seen plenty of shelter
    cats that are just as beautiful, loving, and make excellent pets.
    On the other hand, a lot of catteries suffer their share of problem
    kittens/cats if the breeder is not a reputable one and doesn't care
    about their well being.
    
    Whatever avenue Kate chooses to pursue, I wish her much luck and
    happiness.
    
    /Roberta
     

    RE. 39 (Jeanne)
    
             I respect your opinion and agree with you that in some
    cases yes a reason given may not be the REAL reason.  I'm sorry
    to hear that people took advantage of you in that way.  If there's
    something I can't stand is the way people can wash their consciences
    clean by throwing the problem over to someone else to deal with.
            I do have to disagree with a few things though or maybe
    just add a another viewpoint then what you are used to.  I took
    in your message that you had taken the animal before it was brought
    to a shelter.  Under most conditions if an animal is brought to
    a shelter that has some very disturbing problems those will be noticed
    by the shelter staff who will then make a note of it for future
    adoption.  Unfortunately you did not have the chance to have others
    see the animal for a time but then again I, myself, would have been
    too afraid of the animal being put to sleep and taken it on the
    spot.  But the point is that very bad problems are spotted and dealt
    with.  The shelter does not want to see something terrible happen
    or the animal returned because the new owners got a surprise.  
    
          When I was at my local shelter recently some of the reasons
    that were right in the front of the cages for everyone to see were:
    1) I fell in love with this one.  He was there because he insisted
    on using the bathtub for a litter box.  Some people can handle that
    and put some effort into trying to break the animal of this.  Then
    again no one knows what kind of environment prompted him to do this.
    Soiled kitty box all the time etc....  In that case no one would
    have brought home a beautiful cat just to find out to their horror
    that their bathtub was always full.  2) Like a dog a cat may resent
    the intrusion of a baby into the household.  When there is that
    type of resentment many people will get rid of the animal.  VERY
    valid reason for an otherwise well-behaved cat.  3) The saddest
    cat that was there.  His owner had brought him because of an allergy
    in the family.  I believe it was a new-born's allergy.  That man
    cried tears and was totally heartbroken to have to bring his cat
    in.  So was the cat....  I believe totally that this man was not
    faking any excuses but that that was the reason.  
    
         The moral I guess of this long-winded reply is that not everyone
    lies and makes up a story.  And if they do lie the staff will catch
    anything that is visible and warn the public.  
    
         I agree with Jeanne that yes if anyone goes to a shelter that
    they should ask questions and have a general idea of what they are
    looking for and what they are ready to handle.  But no most of the
    animals are not there under false pretenses.
    
                                                                   
                                                          Kim
    
          

Re: .25

 Yeah, Kim! You said it!

 Shelter cats (or dogs, for that matter) can make wonderful
 pets. It is true that some cats were given up for a reason
 that will make them less than desirable for certain new homes,
 but this really seems to be a small percentage. Most were given
 up for reasons that had nothing to do with the cat's personality
 or behavior (divorce, moving, allergies, new baby, etc.).

 At most shelters (although perhaps not the very, very busy
 ones in extremely urban areas), the shelter workers know something
 about the animal's background and know alot about how the animal has
 been acting since it was brought to the shelter. If you ask for
 their advice about a certain animal, they'll help out alot.
 They're not going to try to get you to take an animal that's not
 right for you. That'd be pointless--they'd just end up with the
 animal being brought back to the shelter!

 And don't forget, purebred cats and dogs end up at shelters, too.
 So buying a purebred is no insurance that the animal will be 
 perfect for you. Alternatively, if you want a purebred, but don't
 need the papers because you don't plan to show or breed the animal,
 you can sometimes find a real bargain at an animal shelter! (In fact,
 the last time I was at Buddy Dog, there was a Himalayan waiting for
 a home.)

 --Debbie (the other Robbins)

    RE:  43 notes
    
    I really think that we have ALL vented our feelings.  Could we
    now get on with the business of this file - CATS in general not
    owners or possible owners of cats.
    
    Moderators, are you ready to WRITE/LOCK this note?
    
    Elaine

RE: 1881.44 by TOPDOC::TRACHMAN 
    
>    Moderators, are you ready to WRITE/LOCK this note?
    
Personally speaking, no I'm not, although I haven't consulted Deb 
on this.  Sometimes I think we go through cycles where we need to 
vent.  I'm willing to step in when people seem to have lost track
of common courtesies and degenerate into name-calling and ad
hominem attacks, but I haven't seen that happen yet in this note.

Do other people agree with Elaine and want this topic closed?

Pam

    Holly was a shelter cat.  When she was let out of her cage she climbed
    into my lap and declared her intention of staying there.  She'd
    be there all the time still, except Mom has to go to work.....
    

    It's too bad that it took so long to understand Kate.
    I am feeling a little uncomfortable about the tone of
    some of the notes, and wonder why we feel that we need
    to understand Kate so well and at such length.
    
    I guess I suggested write locking to prevent any further
    discussion on that particular topic of Kate and her feelings.
    I think that she has taken lots of time and effort to explain
    herself to us all.  Maybe a new topic could be started
    
    Do we really need to flame so vehemently and pass judgement?
    I'd kind of hate to see that trend continue here in this file.
    
    E.T.

    What worries me about Kate's note, is I keep remembering a beautiful
    white cat I saw in a shelter.  The reason listed on her card for
    her being given up was "wakes owners up in the morning".
    

    The responses in several notes are getting a bit warm. I would
    appreciate it if the participants of this conference would PLEASE
    take the time to really read the notes and replies, and understand
    what the person is really saying BEFORE writing a response, especially
    if that response might be heated. Try to assume that the person that
    wrote it did so without malicious intent, but that that person may not
    be the world's most articulate, best speller/typist with a great
    command of the proper word to use in the case of homonyms/homophones.
    
    And please, if you enter something, try to say what you mean, and be
    sensitive to who your audience is; don't expect people to have to read
    between the lines since that can cause misunderstandings that turn into
    flames which turn into a lot of wasted energy, time and emotions.

    Finally, some replies are beginning to border on personal attacks.
    Please, if you have a compelling need to express a feeling or opinion
    by flaming another person, please do it using some medium other than
    this conference.
    
    Deb
    co-moderator

    re: 1881.49
    
    What does my note have to do with a cat abandoned for waking owners
    up, that now causes you to worry about MY NOTE? 
    
    Because I said I didnt like my eyelashes being chewed up at *3:00am*?
    I take it you are grouping ALL insomnics as members of the cat
    abandoners cult?
    
    (Note: "dawn" occurs at 6:00 - 6:30 am. THAT's morning!)
    
     AND.... to assure you....
    
    I have never been in California, well, only in the San Francisco
    airport, on my way to Oregon... so I've never been seen in a shelter
    west of the Mississippi..honest. Check the post office, my picture
    isnt hanging up there!
    
    I'm not the anti-cat fairy, here. Please don't hold me up for ALL
    of the cat abuses of the world. And further, at the risk of stirring
    things up again...but what the heck..Im such a rabble
    rouser...regarding the person who got rid of this white cat..at
    least they were honest, and they could have done worse....by taking
    the cat to a shelter, they DID give others the opportunity to love
    something they couldn't. They could have just tossed it off the
    Golden Gate Bridge or shot it (Im sure both have been done).
                              
    Kate

    I don't want to have to write lock this note, however, my patience
    is wearing thin. Reply .50 was a warning. Please heed it.
    
    Deb
    Co Moderator

    This will be my final comment in this particular note, and perhaps
    this notes conference. I appologize in advance if I "flame" anyone
    unintentionally, or if I ramble, but there are some things, that
    will probably be taken as an insult to cats rather than perhaps
    the cat owners themselves (although, please it isnt an insult but
    perhaps some critism), that I wish to say...
    
    First, I would like to say "thank you" to those of you who took
    the time, to be patient, to wait longer before you just passed
    judgement, and to try to see the point of view of someone who is
    not a catperson (I consider myself to be a PETperson, however).
    It was nice for some of you to take the time to send me personal
    mail or phone and let me know that, hey, Kate is okay...maybe just
    different.
 
    Low *flame* on:
       
    Some of you however, were downright hurtful..intentionally so. You
    have this idea that if someone differs from you in opinion or feelings
    that you have the right to jump on them. That isnt so. Each individual
    has a right to his/her opinions, and mature adults, take the time
    to DISAGREE with someone who they either dont understand or like
    their beliefs; not become vicious or take differences personally.
    I didnt ask you to like me or to understand me, I asked for some
    help. Granted, you all feel that you have some bond with each other,
    and can judge outsiders before helping; but I guess I like to think
    that if someone comes to me for help, then I ask what I can do first,
    and if I am concerned about something then I ask about that too,
    not jump on them instead. I dont have the luxury of living in the
    Mass-Boston-NH corridor, I cant physically socialize with you, nor
    do I have the luxury of spending inordinate amounts of time in notes
    of any kind. I am not an engineer, or DEC employee that has the
    "breathing-room" of working at a Digital office, I am a software
    specialist that works at customer sites. I tried to take the time
    to explain myself in this 1881 note, because I got roasted, and
    wished to defend; it is not easy to do. Customers do not want to
    see their $100.00/hour going to this kind of thing. I have done
    it recently because SOME of you were hurtful enough that I felt
    impelled to reply. Maybe it is the nature of NOTES that I am set
    apart from you 1st because I dont live in your area; go to any notes
    conference and the majority of people in any conference tend to
    be from up there for whatever reason; and 2nd because I am not your
    basic cat idolizer (AGAIN, I like them, but I dont live for them).
    
    *Soapbox reagarding another notes conference* :     
    
    I am a member of the Environmental_Issues conference. It is an issue
    that is ** VERY IMPORTANT ** to me. And it must be to the other
    members, who come from your area, Australia, Italy, Japan, DE...to name
    a few, to take the time, as you all do, to discuss what's important
    to us. The environment is something that is EVERYONE's concern not
    just Senators, Presidents, or "someone else". The environment and
    its safekeeping, is what allows us to live..all of us, including
    your cats.
    
    *Soapbox off*
    
    Why I am bringing this up is that, in that conference, between
    political viewpoints, diverse nationalities, and just plain degree
    of intensity of personal beliefs, there are lots of opportunities
    for anyone to get violent, snotty, rude or hurtful on any given
    issue, when we don't agree with another. Even national pride gets
    stirred up when someone from Italy asks us from the U.S. why don't
    we stop our heavy acid rain pollution, or why dont we as the strongest
    nation, do something to relieve ALL this planets environmental misery.
    In that conference, we do indeed debate, argue, pull out articles
    from God-knows-where to defend "our" particular side, but not once,
    NOT ONCE, have I seen anyone become hurtful, vindictive, or not
    ASK the other 'side' FIRST what their position was (tell me more
    BEFORE  we pounce!). Sadly, to me, too much of the dead-opposite
    going on here...and in earlier notes. To whoever commented for me
    to go thru and read this conference, if I had the time...I DID.
    I did it from home, in order to find out about Bombays and Burmese,
    and what I saw in those notes from 1986, 1987 and now, were alot
    of the same, lack of respect for the individual as a person. Maybe
    its because your conference has more people in it, but I am not
    sure. I again, perhaps very wrongly, see too many cat owners to
    be of the nature of not having patience; or having lots of love
    to give to their cats, but not so to the  human race,to those who
    share your feelings for cats and towards those who dont. It is
    sad, because you tend to overshadow the people who are nice, or
    TRY to be ALWAYS (I do not doubt that the people in here are basically
    nice and caring...but they seem to find it difficult to take care
    to show that to all living creatures, including man).
       
    It is bad enough to have people jump to conclusions and berate you
    for your differences, but it angers me to see notes in here attributing
    to me things I never said. 
    
    RE: 1881.37 "And now I read .19 and her comment about "getting a
    statue"...and attributed me as some person who wanted "visual beauty"
    in my environment perhaps and was not considering the aspects of
    "living with a cat". I wish you took the time to review the notes...I
    never said a word about "statues". That was one of you telling me
    that and also attributing me to having said it..I DID NOT. I let
    it slip that time, I didnt' feel the need to take the time to defend
    someones' misreadings...but I guess I need to now. If you are going
    to be critical of another, please be sure you know exactly what
    they typed, maybe not what they meant, but at least what they typed.
    It is common curtesy. I think I said I took the position that if
    I did not want affection returned then I would buy fish. I think
    that was a PRO-cat statement people, not and anti- one. Some of
    you didnt see that, or perhaps just didnt WANT to see that. 
    
    Karen said to me, in 1881.35, that "You cant sit at your terminal
    and tell all the reasons why or what is going on in your life..".
    Thank you Karen, very much. I felt uncomfortable as it was having
    to feel required to bare my personal situation to strangers. Yet,
    Edd seems to want to continue to discuss MY feelings (see note
    1881.46). Who are you all to sit around on some ivory tower and
    discuss Kate? Your notes in other sections dont bare your souls
    to each other. I take offense at "Write-locking wont allow us a
    any further change to discuss it". Edd, sorry, but I am not an insect
    under the microscope, Im a human being, I dont fit on a slide.
    I wont continue further on this particular issue, since E.T. was
    kind and sweet enough to express it in 1881.48. Again, to remind
    those who will see this note as an excuse to start "flaming" again;
    I just want to thank those of you who have been kind, generous and
    supportive to the extent you were.
    
    Low *flame* off.
    
    I guess what I am saying that you can either take the time, as some
    of you did, to learn about another's diffences. opinions, or what
    have you. And gain a possible friend, or at least learn something
    from another member of the human race. I realize this conference
    IS about cats, but sometimes you need to remember that humans count
    too. You seem to not want anyone in your conference who dislikes
    cats or doesnt cherish cats as you do. I have seen it in notes before
    this. In my environmental_notes, I WELCOME everyone. Including those
    who write notes to belittle the environment and those who care for
    it. Why? Because even if someone is a "anti-environmentalist", he
    did take the time to write something, even negative. It means I
    owe him the time back. The fact that he even entered the notes
    conference shows that in some small way he must be interested, or
    he would not even bother. I couldn't care less about owning a ferret,
    because I think they are lousy pets, so I just don't even open the
    conference. Someone who comes into the Environmental_Issues notes,
    well the light bulb goes off that I should listen up..esp. if they
    enter what I feel is a negative note. I listen harder because they
    are probably trying to tell me something, and I listen and try patience
    and to kill them with kindness in the hope that I can win a convert,
    not create hurt or anger instead, by jumping down on them immediately.
    
    I wish more of you would look to your friends here, like E.T., Karen,
    Ken Noyce, and others and learn something from them.
    
    I guess this final note is going to end abruptly, and I will probably
    not say all that I wanted or in the right, and gentle manner, but
    frankly Im tired of fighting. I took 2 Outward Bound courses (some
    of you may have no idea what that is, but some of you may), and
    I learned alot about myself and who I am from those. And to be
    truthful, I like me. I care, and I try to give, even to those who
    I plain can't stand. The founder of those schools gave the system
    a motto, and I make a point of trying to live up to that..I dont
    always, but...It says "To Serve, To Strive, and Never Yield". I
    am not Yielding now, Im just not fighting you anymore. My personal
    beliefs are not for discussion BY others  here, you want to discuss
    them, I am more than happy to discuss them WITH you..Call or write.
    As I said, I dont always live up to those ideals, but I always strive
    to. And that counts for a lot in any individual. 
    
    I have met some wonderful people in different notes. One from
    Australia,who we write mail (post office type), back and forth because
    we find we share a love for the ocean and all that live in it. One
    is from Canada, and I met them from the Singles notes, no, not as
    a "personal", but from a general note I wrote defending men under
    5'9". We send VAXmail back and forth every day. It is a nice thing
    to have someone to discuss differences and likes with (and believe
    me we are different). I have started corresponding to someone from
    France, who thinks environmentalists are wackos, but hey, at least
    we find some common ground, and maybe they will learn to see we
    all arent wacko, crazed yes..wacko no. I have met two people from
    this conference who I wouldnt mind still writing to from time to
    time. I think I can learn something about cats from them. I guess
    that is why I have bored you with this last mess on making friends.
    I know that those people I can go to and get some good information
    on cats that will help me AND THE CAT, without worrying about being
    judged in some way. Because, I guess I feel that to stay in these
    note, I have to always wonder if Im going to be judged every time
    I ask a question, at least until the judges decide Im "one of you".   
    
    I dont think I ever will be, one of you that is. My personality
    is such that I love animals, I adore them. But it tends to be a
    private thing between me and that animal. I dont desire to share
    it. I would only to use these notes as a means to learn valid information
    on raising a cat. But I guess after all of this I wonder if I have
    to be accepted before I would get the help. All of you have a right
    to love your cat in the manner you choose, I would never deny that
    from anyone. But I dont think acceptance or discussions of Kate's
    feelings should preclude that help; and while I may learn to love
    a cat, it is never going to be a love that replaces all things;
    especially the love for a dog that was my BEST FRIEND always when
    I needed her. The love for the cat may become equal/but different,
    but it wont replace something that is gone that I cherish. I see
    in a lot of you here, this opionion that I must share your consuming
    passion for cats. I can say honestly I never will. Nothing against
    cats, its me. I dont generalize my love that much. I give it to
    a specific cat, a specific dog and even a specific hampster. Each
    animal brings/brought something special to me and for that they
    are in my heart always. But to expect me to just love "cats", well
    sorry folks, I ain't got it in me. There are good ones and bad ones,
    and I have a right to dislike the bad ones. 
    
    So I guess what Im saying here is that Im not going to be like a
    lot of you. And I guess I had best end this diatribe before you
    all fall asleep. And sadly, it seems too many of you require (DEMAND)
    that I be like you. Whatever that is..
    
    So, in closing, thanks to ALL of you for your honest opinions of
    me..you said what you felt and in the manner you felt it. It may
    not be right, to me, but it IS your right to do so. And thank those
    of you who kept your feelings to yourself a bit longer and just
    gave fair critism, well, thank you most deeply for considering a
    non-catophile to still be a member of the HUMAN race. It is what
    separates us from that cats and dogs...no one has to train us to
    do good..we choose to do so on our own. And thank you for making
    me welcome, not to this cat file perhaps, but to a place within
    your own heart, I guess. 
    

    Sorry that I caused such a stir here, but please, the next time
    some unsuspecting person enters your domain, have a bit more patience
    and ask some questions first. Critism is never offensive, sometimes
    hard to take, but NEVER offensive. Ignorance or not listening is.
    
    Thanks for reading this..
    
    Kate

It really grieves me to do this but this topic is now write-locked.

I'm sorry Edd, I hate to put a damper on people's discussions.  But
since 2 nicely worded requests were ignored by the same individual,
I can't imagine this discussion can continue in a rational manner.

And I owe you an apology ET - you were right all the time.

As always, if you have an issue with this action please feel free
to send mail or discuss your objections in note 632.

Pam
co-mod