Conference misery::feline_v1

    I can verify that they used to eat them years ago.  I was stationed
    in S.Korea in 19#$(read that quite a while ago) and while in Seoul
    one weekend with a couple of friends decided to eat out.  We
    couldn't read Korean so we ordered by pointing to pictures of what
    we wanted that were provided in the menus for that purpose.  I
    thought I ordered beef stew.  While we were eating an Irish
    priest came into the cafe, saw us in uniform and came over to
    talk.  Towards the end of the conversation he asked us if we
    knew what we were eating.  We told him with confidence what we
    thought we were eating. He laughed and asked us to follow him
    for a minute.  He took us to the back door and pointed outside.
    There were rows of cages along one wall and any of them had dogs
    in them.  We didn't finish our meal!!!! So, I can say that
    they used to do it xx number of years ago.
    
        Ken

    This was discussed in another note quite sometime ago. My position
    hasn't changed...
    
    I find nothing disgusting about this practice, though my cultural
    values keep me from participating.  
    
    When all those who condemn the use of dogs and cats for food have
    given up eating meat (including the BOILED ALIVE LOBSTER) and using
    animal products of any type (ex: leather shoes) then, and only then,
    will I consider their position valid.
    
    Edd 

    Re.: .2    
   > I find nothing disgusting about this practice, though my cultural
   > values keep me from participating.  
    
    I agree with you that eating cats and dogs is no worse than
  eating beef, chicken, etc.

    However, what should be considered is the way these animals
  are treated while still alive. Dogs, at least, are often hung
  by their legs, with the legs twisted around in a grotesque, 
  painful manner. I can't (and won't) explain it in any more
  detail, but have seen it in photos sent out by one of the
  animal rights groups (I can't stand to look at the pictures,
  and now throw out the mail from that organization without
  looking at it because I can't handle those photos--although
  the organization's work may be extremely worthwhile).
  The positions these dogs are hung in are not dissimilar to
  positions I've read the Vietnamese used to torture captives
  during the Vietnam Conflict. (Please no flames about the
  historical accuracy of my last statement. That's what I've read--
  I can't testify to its accuracy.)

    Until these animals are treated humanely before being killed
  as painlessly as possible, I don't think you can compare the
  consumption of cats and dogs in South Korea to the consumption
  of beef in the West.

    
    
        Gee my note should have fell right in between Ed's and Debbie's
    cuz I guess I'm kind of in the middle of the two as far as their
    views.  
    
        I lean toward the vegetarian style of life so I'll try to keep
    that out of my view....  If people are going to eat meat no I do
    not feel that just because we have our dogs and cats as pets over
    here that we should be outraged over another culture using them
    as food.  However I do agree with Deb that the methods that I have
    heard about are VERY inhumane and that is where people should be
    outraged.  If you're going to eat meat fine kill it as quickly and
    as painlessly as possible.  Letting any animal suffer extreme pain
    is in my own opinion a mortal sin and hopefully the people that
    inflict it will get paid back threefold.  However I wouldn't go
    as far to say that us Westerners are really that much better. We're
    pretty mean ourselves not to that extent but nevertheless..... 
    A baby calf raised for veal does not exactly live a happy life.
    And I could go on but.......  
    
    And to Ed's point.  Well I myself do not put a lobster at the same
    level of a cat, dog, horse, cow...... etc......  I have a tough
    time with views that if you feel something is wrong then you had
    better be way over to the extreme side to be able to have any valid
    points.  It's like saying if I have a piece of lobster meat that
    I'm a hyprocrite for feeling that the inhumane treatment of dogs
    and cats in Korea is wrong.....  
    
    But still even though I don't put lobster in the same category as
    a cat and LOVE lobster meat....  I still can't cook them myself :^)
                                                                   
                                                     Kim
    

    I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but our (us Westerners) treatment
    of live stock won't win any prizes either.  Cattle are probably
    best off although I have seen pictures of and heard of terrible
    stories of their treatment.  Our treatment of poultry, hogs and
    veal are absolutely deploreable.  I won't go into detail as I am
    sure no one really wants to read such things.  Most of my information
    comes from the IFAW (I think this stands for International Federation
    of Animal Welfare).  They are the ones who send out those awful
    pictures!  By the way, they are presently doing a lot of work in
    Korea concerning the situation with the cats and dogs along with
    much work right here in the good old US of A.  Unfortunately, we
    all have a long way to go in the area of humane treatment for all
    animals be they household pets or food stock.
    
    Jeanne
    
    

    I've seen those animal welfare flyers myself, and am literally sick
    after reading them. 
    
    I agree that's it's not necessarily what you eat, but how it's
    executed. Not only for the animal's welfare, but for my own.
    Would you want to ingest everything those cows do?!?!?!?
    
    I am aware of the treatment of all livestock, and due
    to this I am *trying* to give up meats, and I only eat "Country
    Chicken" eggs. When possible, I get my meats from Bread and Circus
    who claim that the livestock used for their meats are humanely treated
    *the old-fashioned way*. I also try to use cosmetics, shampoos,
    etc. that haven't been tested on animals. If anybody out there knows 
    of any other places where food can be obtained without animals having
    to be tortured for our benefit, please send info. my way. 
              (Could this be a good idea for a basenote?)      ;^)
    
    Anyway, getting back to cats & dogs, I understand this stuff is 
    getting closer to home . . . I hear it's becoming common practice
    in South America now too. Yuk! I just hope MacDonald's doesn't catch
    on.
    
    
    Denise
    

    Re: .6
    
    Denise,
    
    All Kosher Meats, the animals are killed "humanely", supposedly
    instantly by one slash to the throat.  Unfortuneately, I don't know
    of any Kosher Meat Markets in the area.
    
    	-Nancy

    I sure wish someone would come up with a distinctive marker for
    products that don't involve tormenting or killing animals.  Something
    like the markings that a food product is kosher.
    
    I recently noticed that Safeway has started stocking Tom's toothpaste,
    which I think I recollect seeing on a "safe" list.
    
    One thing you might look for is a local source of eggs along the
    lines of someone who keeps hens in the backyard.  Health food stores
    are often a good place to ask as well.
    
    signed,
    
    vegetarian who doesn't buy anything that involves harming animals.
    
                        

    RE < Note 1714.8 by CIRCUS::KOLLING "Karen, Sweetie, & Holly; in Calif." >

>    I sure wish someone would come up with a distinctive marker for
>    products that don't involve tormenting or killing animals.  Something
>    like the markings that a food product is kosher.

    I believe the Humane Society of the United States is working on this
    even as we type.  I think they're looking into some kind of "Humanely
    Produced" label for meat.  Wish I still had my copy of the most recent
    HSUS newsletter so I could check; I think that's where I read about it.

							-- Nina

    Re: .9
    
    That's not exactly what I had in mind.  I mean a label that means
    "no animal was killed or harmed in any way in the production, testing,
    or development of this product."  No way does a package of meat
    qualify.
    

    Re .8
    
    "Vegetarian who doesn't buy anything that involves harming animals"???
    
    Does this mean your cats are also vegetarians?  
    
    Ibet the animals killed to make cat food are the worst treated animals
    of all.
    
    

    Thanks Nancy, I didn't know that about kosher meats. But how are they
    raised? Humanely I hope. That's the big thing.
    
    RE: .8
    
    "Country Chicken" eggs actually come with a flyer in the carton
    telling of the idyllic life these hens supposedly lead. I think
    it says so on the cover too.
    
    Also, all Paul Mitchell hair care products say right on the back
    label: "NOT TESTED ON ANIMALS". They are really good products, but
    cost A LOT. (though I think it's worth the expense)
    
    I have a list of some companies that DO and DO NOT test their products
    on animals. If anyone would like a copy, send mail to RAINBW::PERRY.
    
    
    Denise

    

    RE .10 -- Oops, sorry.  I was relating your reply to the earlier ones
    (.3, .4, .5) that talked about how animals that are killed for meat
    are treated.

							-- Nina

    Animals raised "humanely" just to be killed for human consuption
    really eases guilt?  Are you for real?  Does it really help you
    enjoy that t-bone steak better?  I don't know....  I'm not a vegitarian
    or want to be, but come on.....  It reminds me of Hansel and Gretel
    and being fed a lot just for the witches dinner.  
    
    Katie
    

>    Animals raised "humanely" just to be killed for human consuption
>    really eases guilt?  Are you for real?  
    
    Yes. It does "ease guilt". It might not ELIMINATE guilt, but
  for some people it does ease the guilt, that is, lessen the
  severity of guilty feelings. 

    Are you saying that it is NO better, not better AT ALL,
  to treat an animal humanely and then kill it painlessly than
  to treat it inhumanely and then kill it in a painful manner.

  Yes. There are people in the world besides you who are "for real".
  
  I'm just sorry the rest of us can't be as wonderful as you.
  Please note my sarcasm.

  I really get PO'd when people try to dictate morals to the rest
  of the world.
 
  Debbie

    
    >>  I really get PO'd when people dictate morals  <<
    
    Yeah - me too!!  I might have an "attitude problem", but I just get
    a little annoyed at people who "feel guilty" eating an animal, whether
    it was "raised right" or not.  Guilt feelings for something you
    do and continue doing don't make much sense to me.
    
    I noted your "sarcasm" and I'm glad you know me so well, that you
    can judge my charactor (note MY sarcasm!)
    
    Katie
    

    Can we go back to talking about l'il fuzzy numkins??
    
    Pleeeze??
    
    Edd

    Your moderators echo Edd's comments.
    
    'Nuff said.
    
    Deb

    RE: .14
    
    I don't feel guilty for eating them, just as I am sure the worms
    are not going to feel guilty when they eat me. But since they are going
    to be eaten by someone anyway (whether or not it's me), I just hope
    the time they spend alive on this earth is comfortable - at least not
    sheer torture.
    
    I am a true believer in that state that once was the golden rule of
    life: "Eat or be eaten". Everything has a purpose, and like it or
    not just about everything that lives and dies on this planet gets
    consumed or put to use somehow. Though we have thrown the "balance
    of nature" into a total frenzy, it still exists and we all live
    and die by this law.
    
    I DO feel bad when I see the Lioness fell the Zebra; this is human
    nature. Good old fashioned sentiment. However, the Lion must survive
    as do we. Sentiment leaves, logic takes over. 
    
    The Zebra knew life as a Zebra's life was meant to be: out in the
    open, tending it's young, sleeping, grazing, just minding it's own 
    business doing it's best to stay alive - not behind bars, tied down 
    with chains, never to see it's children or even the light of day. 
    In the wild, if it is fast and strong it will live. If not, it's
    somebody's dinner. In our society speed and strength make no difference
    at all, they haven't a chance against us and our smarts.  
    
    No, I don't feel bad about eating them. I DO feel bad that they
    are tortured for my benefit, which is why I am trying to give up
    meat. As long as I/we eat them, they will be treated in this
    way and THAT is the issue.
    
    
    
    Denise
    

    re: .19
         Well said.  Except I won't give up eating meat from our
    societies accepted sources(cows, pigs, etc.)  I didn't like
    the practice of eating dog/cat when I was in Korea and I don't
    like it now but that't their culture and if they won't stop
    us from doing what we feel is right then I won't stop them.
                      Ken
    

    Good note!  
    
    This is such an important topic to discuss, much as we might prefer
    to sweep it under the rug.
    
    I mentioned in a previous note that I had an IFAW (International
    Fund for Animal Welfare) petition boycotting this practice.  Alison
    in Australia (who has since left DEC) asked me to send it.  She
    quickly sent me 75 signatures, 50 of which came from one night at
    the local pub.  People do care, given the opportunity to express
    that care in noncommital action.
    
    I'm the type who "thinks too much."  Consequently, after years of
    good ol' carnivorism, I finally had to switch to modified
    vegetarianism.  If I am to truly be a responsible individual in
    this life, then for me that means being responsible for my own actions
    and lifestyle, including what I do or do not eat.  I still eat fish
    (except for lobster -- coming from Maine I grew up on them, but
    soon became overly-sensitive to their plight) and chicken (an
    il-treated creature if ever there was one), but I'm trying.  Guilt?
    Not purely.  Guilt laced with true concern, the maternal concern
    that "mother" nature has for all her creatures; the chance to witness,
    to live and alter society by example and new acceptance rather than
    resentment-causing mandates (although the Korean "offenders" go
    too far); and the knowledge of man's long-term evolution, of that
    vision of the future whereby man will become caretaker, not just
    top dog of the food chain.
    
    I know, I know, some of you are thinking, "is this for real?." 
    It may sound flightly to some.  But I truly believe that man is
    a spiritual being, not bound by the flesh at all times.  Sure, the
    survival instinct is strong, but in today's society we have the
    luxury of putting it on the back burner.....

    Congratulations.  There are lots of good vegetarian cookbooks floating
    around, as well as books on Indian cooking, for example, that you
    may find useful.  The last time I went out to dinner at a veggie
    restaurant, I had an omelet with chili beans, guacamole, sour cream,
    and salsa.  Yumyum.  There are lots of good veggie things to eat.  Try
    a local health food store, for ideas too.  Let's see, the last time
    I was in the local health food store, I bought a tofu burger with
    onions, raisins, sprouts, non-rennet cheese, lettuce....
    

    There's lots of discussion of vegetarianism in the HYRDA::HOLISTIC
    conference.  And there are vegetarian recipes in the TLE::COOKS
    conference.  Since you can only associate one conference with a note,
    you'll have to add these conferences to your notebook manually.  :-)

						-- Nina

    Thanks, Karen and Nina...time to ADD ENTRY again ;-).

    Just wanted to add my 2 pence worth.
    
    I am as "guilty" of eating meat as the next person.  I always use
    make-up made by BWC (Beauty Without Cruelty) though...if that's
    any compensation???  I can't say that I know ANY true Vegans (I
    mean how far can you go?) and if the diet of Koreans is what we
    class as pets then I guess that is OK, though I personally find
    is totally disgusting...but thats only cos I've always thought of
    them as pets.  BUT I DO DISAGREE WITH THE WAY THEY TREAT THEM WHILST
    THEY ARE STILL ALIVE!!!
    
    Sorry for shouting but although "we" could be a bit more considerate
    with the way "we" KILL our food, "we" DONT:
       
       Tie them up in cages with BARBED WIRE for muzzles and their front
       legs tied behind their backs with the same.
     
       Burn their hair off whilst they are still alive.
    
       Hang them up by their back legs...whilst still alive.
    
    Call me a hipocrit (sp?) if you like but I don't agree with ANYTHING
    being tortured whilst it is still alive.  I'm sure none of you agreed
    with the hooligans that used to chop the ears and tails off of live
    kittens and then throw them off bridges into rivers now did you???
    Well that's exactly the way I class this treatment from the Koreans.
    
    Sharon
    
    
    

    re: .25
    
    Though the Koreans are among the worst offenders, it is primarily
    a problem of "mankind". To my knowledge, there is not a single
    culture not guilty of this offense in one way or another. 
   
    It is this fact that makes me as sad as it does angry.      
    
    
    Denise