Conference misery::feline_v1

    Both my parents and I have had very good experiences there, but
    it seems many of the other noters don't think very highly of
    them.
    
    Aja has been going there since she was a kitten and continues
    to do so.
    
    Edd

    Check out note 14.59.   You can also contact me off-line
    if you'd like further elaboration on why I'd say "STAY
    AWAY"  from NEICM.  But the author of .59 worked there
    and she has stories of her own you might be interested
    in.
    
    Where do you live?  There's a great vet in Leominster
    that a few of us would recommend highly.
    
    As for declawing,  I think you should give some serious
    reconsideration to declawing 8-year old cats.  What
    behavior modifications techniques have you employed and
    have you really given them a fair shot? 
    
    Donna

    I haven't had any experience with this vet, but I would recommend
    Dr. Mulcahey at Central Animal Hospital in Leominster.  I take both
    Tabbatha and Silver there and she is wonderful.  very understanding.
    
    As for declawing, I seriously would reconsider.  Is there one place
    where they like to scratch?  If so, try buying a scratching post
    (or making one out of wood and some old pieces of rug) and placing
    it in front of that spot where they like to scratch.  If there is
    no specific place where they like to scratch, you may try clipping
    their nails once a week or try a C.A.T. (Cat adjustment tool - aka
    spray bottle).  As soon as you see the cat scratching the furniture,
    spray them with a stream of water.
    
    Holly
    
    

    Just want to add my experience with having our 3 cats declawed.
    
    Frostie was 12 years old
    Daktari was 11 years old
    Misti was 4 years old
    
    We had the above all done at one time after putting up for years
    with shredded furniture and trying every remedy in the book to
    stop them.  They had NO adverse effects at all.  You would not
    even know that they had been to the vets.
    
    We recently had our new cat declawed at about 1 year of age. NO
    problem with him either.
    
    Our vet uses a technique that after the nails are removed some sort
    of substance is applied to the cut area so dirt, and other debrie
    cannot get into the cut area.  This substance after 2 months just
    melts like stitches that are put inside during some kinds of surgery.
    
    Our vet is in Amherst, NH
    
    Barbara

    I have heard many horror tales of cats being declawed, but our
    cats have become rediculous.  Not only have they torn one chair
    apart, but now Cuddles is putting holes in our newly purchased waterbed
    rails.  I didn't believe it until I saw him doing it.  The cats
    have had scratching posts, sprays, etc.  Were not home most of the
    day, so it's hard to reprimand them.
    
    I spoke today to the Tufts Vet Clinic who seemed concerned about
    the age, but said they would do a a thorough checkup on each cat
    before it's done.  I appreciate note <1335.4> and the Leominster
    information.  Tufts said they will keep them 21/2 days compared
    to W. Boylstons overnight.  W. Boylston wasn't very concerned with
    the age.  
    
    We just moved into a new house in W. Boylston and have hand-me-down
    furniture from relatives, etc.  All the furniture is a mess from
    them.  There is no way we can spend money on new furniture without
    doing something.
    
    Also, Bob, my boyfriends cat's are his first love (I'm his second)
    so he is VERY weary of doing this.  Especially with there age. 
    He's heard a lot of negative comments about declawing.  There indoor
    cats, and I don't want to leave them in the cellar, or locked up
    in a room.  Both Cuddles and Monster are two great guys!
    
    Ellen

    
    	
    	Like Donna says, please stay away from NEICM. I did work
    there for awhile, and I would not bring my pets there even if
    it was an emergency. I think 14.59 is convincing enough, but 
    contact me if you want more info. 
    
    	Sherry
    

    Despite the fact that your gone all day you can still
    attempt behavior modification.  The presence of a 
    scratching post is not behavior modification.  Anyone
    that declaws their cat without taking the time and
    effort (and it does take time and sometimes lots of
    effort) is doing a disservice to their animal.  Most
    of noters here who have opted for declawing all seem to
    have taken this time and, for some, have made herculean 
    efforts first, before resorting to declawing.
    
    Donna

    <note 1335.7>
    
    Excuse me, but who gives you the right to assume that
    I havent' practiced behavior modification towards my cats.  Why
    do you think we haven't thought of declawing them up until now!
    We love the animals, and wouldn't do anything to do them ill harm.
    I think your jumping way to conclusions, and I don't appreciate
    you telling me I'm doing a "disservice to my animals".  Also, I
    began this note in hopes of getting recommendations regarding vets,
    not to be told that I haven't taken my cats into consideration.
    
    Before you write notes like this you should understand the facts
    first!  I don't appreciate being jumped all over by a noter, especially
    when it comes to such a touchy subject.

    Sorry Ellen, that's why I had asked in .2 what
    techniques you had tried so far.  Some people
    just don't realize that some cats can be trained
    (well to a certain degree anyway), and some folks
    just don't want to bother.  Frankly, I'm not the
    least bit concerned about offending these kind of
    people.  If I assumed too hastily that you were
    one of them I apologize.  Your reply in .5 how-
    ever didn't indicate much, if any, about what
    you had done to try and retrain them and I
    therefore got the erroneous impression that you
    hadn't done much.  Please accept my apologies
    since this is obviously not the case.
    
    Donna

    Screamimng, yelling, throwing magazines, boy, I'm glad you're not
    _my_ mother.....
    

    I've had four cats now that have been pretty successfully
    trained as far as scratching goes and I too worked all
    day.  The point is - is can be done - maybe not to every
    cat but for most of them.  I think its too bad that some
    cats will not even get a shot at keeping their claws (as
    in previous reply), and I don't care if people find my 
    opinion palatable to them or not, I think this is unfair
    and a disservice to the animal.  
    
    Donna

Okay, gang, all the sarcasm is unnecessary.  I feel it is an interesting
problem and should be addressed.  When someone is only home and awake 
3 to 4 hours a day , there is no way to train a cat that does not COOPERATE
WITH THE TRAINING....some cats will cooperate and learn very quickly that
the scratching post or pad is where it should happen and some will not.
The option of penning an animal up in the bathroom for 10 or more hours
a day, and all night while someone sleeps so the cat(s) cannot get to the
furniture seems much harsher than the declawing (remember:  those of us
in the west rarely have basements).  I have never read any book on behavior
modification that claims it will work if administered PART OF THE TIME;
it only works when consistently administered EACH TIME THE BAD BEHAVIOR
OCCURS.  What you teach you cat when not around all the time is DON'T
DO IT WHEN MOM IS HOME.  That will NOT save the furniture.    

So how would YOU suggest training a cat not to claw when a person is working
50 hours a week and cannot be home all the time....remembering that penning
the animal all day is NOT ACCEPTABLE?

    The only thing I can suggest is to take a scratching post and put
    it in front of their favorite place to scratch.  Maybe they'll get
    the idea.  
    
    Holly
    
    

    
         Okay okay!!!!!  Everytime we get on this frigin (I say frigin
    though I'd much rather use another) subject someone gets jumped
    on.  The facts are folks.....
    
         1.  The original noter asked of advice for a vet's.  She had
    already made up her mind about the operation.  
    
         2.  I am sure the woman is a loving and an intelligient woman
    that has tried and has listened to all pros and cons about her
    decision.
         
         3.  She needs no one's blessing or has to explain to anyone
    what methods she has tried. 
    
    All in all I find it very sad that someone can be treated so viciously
    in this notesfile.  Very controversial subject yes that's a given.
    BUT for god's sake you'd think that's the worst thing in the world.
    At least this kitty has a wonderful home.  Others should be so
    lucky.....
    
                                                        kim
    
    To the original noter:
    
                           Sorry I don't have any info for you :^) 
                           

    No harm done Donna <note 1335.9>.  I just get upset when
    someone tells me I haven't done enough when we definetly
    have.  Remember, the cats are seven, almost eight years old,
    and both of us are barely there.  Both cats have destroyed two
    couches since we've had them.  Not getting into behavior mdoification,
    of what we've done, but we tried sprays, kitty posts, etc.  They
    don't have just one special place they scratch, so to put a scratching
    post where they scratch would be totally inappropriate.  
    
    Also, from experience, I think you really need to start behavior
    modification when the cats are young.  It's pretty difficult to
    break a cat of a habit when they've been doing it for 8 years. 
    I did have one kitten (cat) who was well trained and only used the
    post, but like I said, we trained her young.  
    
    I know how touchy a subject declawing is.  Bob would be heartbroken
    if anything happened to them while they were being declawed.  But
    it comes down to spending at least a grand on furniture and having
    it ruined, or spending $200. on both cats, I'm more apt now to spend
    the $200. and have my furniture for awhile.
    
    Now, back to the Vets.  Does anyone know the name of the Vets that
    was mentioned in Leominster?  I've also heard a lot of good things
    about him, and am going to give him a call.
    
    Ellen

    Ellen,  the vet is the one mentioned in the reply right
    after mine, Dr. Eileen Mulcahey of Central Animal Hospital
    on Rte. 12 in Leominster.  Her assistant Dr. Moss is also
    good too.  You can't go wrong with Tufts either.
    
    It wasn't clear from your previous replies whether this
    was new behavior for the cats or not, but it looks like
    they've been allowed to do it for 8 years now?  As
    mentioned it is easier to do on a younger cat and it's
    tough to have allowed certain behavior for 8 years and
    then to try and get a cat to change.
    
    How about keeping their favorite piece of furniture and
    just allowing them to scratch that?  They may not be
    interested in other things.  My cats were always allowed
    to scratch two chairs that are made out of this heavy
    rope-like material.  Everytime they scratch (still)
    I praise them over and over.  Plus they have a ceiling
    height cat pededstal and a carpeted choo-choo train
    piece of furniture.  For the most part, they stick to
    'their' furniture.  Their nails are clipped regularly
    too.
    
    I'm not saying I have no claw damage in my house, I do.
    But it's minimal.  The particular behavior modification
    techniques are discussed elsewhere in this file and 
    these seem to have been successful for a lot of noters
    who (obviously) work all day.
    
    If you've given it your best shot, you've done all you
    can.  At least you tried.
    
    Donna

    Thumbs up to dr. Mulcahey!  She's WONDERFUL!!!  She's very good
    with the animals.  She talks to them as she is examining them, and
    explains to you what she is checking for and what could be wrong.
    A really wonderful Vet.
    
    I don't agree with havingthem declawed, but that is your perogative.
    I am just recommending Dr. Mulcahey, HIGHLY!!!  She will tell you
    what would be best for the cats.
    
    Holly
    
    

    I've got 6, and all but one has claws (Alex was found without them).
    I guess I'm lucky that everyone uses the scratching tree/post/tube
    (including clawless Alex, and it breaks my heart every time I see
    her trying to use it). Anyhow, to get on with the story, I recently
    got a new couch. Eirene seemed to decide that the cushions were
    there for scratching. I found something that I have been using as
    a drop cloth (I think that they were once curtains. They are heavy
    cotton and lined) and threw that over the couch while I'm out. After
    a while, I got Eirene to stop clawing, but I've decided to leave
    the cloth over the couch because it is shedding season and 3 black
    cats are turning my wheat colored upholstery black. (I can't really
    claim credit for this technique because both my mother and my aunt use
    it when their cats seem to be in scratching mode.)
    
    One thing I've noticed with a number of people that
    claim that the cats are destroying their furniture and they
    don't have the time to train them not to is that none of them think of
    throwing something over the furniture. It is a a one-time 3-minute
    effort. 

    RE: .13

    How does one train a cat when you are only home for a few hours
    brings up some good points and I'd like to expand on that note
    but from another point of view. I'm really not trying to start World
    War III; I can understand *sometimes* not having enough waking hours
    to pay attention to your pets; But if a person is home only 3 or 4 
    waking hours a day on a regular basis, and can't take any of that
    time to teach them to behave, or pay any other attention to them,
    perhaps the cats are clawing the furniture or getting into other
    forms of mischief to get attention (negative attention is better than
    no attention than all). And if a person's schedule is so busy on
    a regular basis that they can't find time to pay attention to their pets,
    why bother having them? Note here that I am NOT FLAMING nor attacking
    anyone nor am I trying to start a war with these statements. I'm
    honestly interested and I'd like to discuss this topic *calmly* and
    seriously. 
    
    Deb
    
    

RE: < Note 1335.20 by VAXWRK::SKALTSIS "Deb" >
         -< If you haven't got the time, why blame (or have) the pet? >-

>    I guess I'm lucky that everyone uses the scratching tree/post/tube
>    (including clawless Alex, and it breaks my heart every time I see
>    her trying to use it).

Yes, you're lucky they use a specific place...my cats have no claws,
2 came without, one I got declawed because of unfair fighting, HOWEVER,
they all "claw" furniture - they have no specific spot, but do it
anywhere..placing a cat post in front of a spot would have had no effect.

I see no reason to feel sorry for you cat when he/she practices a behavior
that satisfies an instinct and DON'T get yelled at in the process..

>    One thing I've noticed with a number of people that
>    claim that the cats are destroying their furniture and they
>    don't have the time to train them not to is that none of them think of
>    throwing something over the furniture. It is a a one-time 3-minute
>    effort. 

My friend tried that and her cat crawled under the cover and clawed
the furniture - obviously not a solution.

>    How does one train a cat when you are only home for a few hours
>    brings up some good points and I'd like to expand on that note
>    but from another point of view. I'm really not trying to start World
>    War III; I can understand *sometimes* not having enough waking hours
>    to pay attention to your pets; But if a person is home only 3 or 4 
>    waking hours a day on a regular basis, and can't take any of that
>    time to teach them to behave, or pay any other attention to them,
>    perhaps the cats are clawing the furniture or getting into other
>    forms of mischief to get attention (negative attention is better than
>    no attention than all). And if a person's schedule is so busy on
>    a regular basis that they can't find time to pay attention to their pets,
>    why bother having them? Note here that I am NOT FLAMING nor attacking
>    anyone nor am I trying to start a war with these statements. I'm
>    honestly interested and I'd like to discuss this topic *calmly* and
>    seriously. 

Deb, obviously you did not READ my reply, but read a few words and jumped
off into the ethernet.....I did not suggest that a person who was home
only 4 hours a night was IGNORING the cat (in fact I spend lots of time
playing with mine and I'm sure other people do too), but I was suggesting
the problem arises DURING THE TIME THE PERSON HAS TO BE OUT OF THE HOUSE -
like to work.  I know you are not suggesting that the only people qualified
to have cats as companions are the people who never have to go to work
so I won't belabor the point.  I was making the point that behavior training
for kittens or cats generally won't take effect unless you can be home all
the time to catch the cat in the bad behavior or unless you restrain the
cat's access to the furniture.  If you managed to keep your cats from
destroying furniture, congratulations!  If you have managed to get a cat
that picks ONE place to scratch, GOOD...then you can train it.  However,
many people are not that lucky and they still love their cats...so they
declaw.  Its really simple..sometimes behavior modification doesn't work
unless you are home all the time to make it work.

I'm just glad the cats have homes - it could be alot worse than declawing!

    Uh, can we end this discussion?  I think it is getting a bit too
    warm in here.  Besides, the author of the base note asked for
    a reputable vet and I think we answered her question.
        
    Holly, Tabbatha, and Silver
    
    p.s. Ms. Moderator, could you do something to stop all of this?
    
    

    Just a comment - not a flame!
    
    1. In the UK, as far as I know, there is no declawing - I believe that
       the majority of vets won't do it. 
    
    2.  My cats, indoor/outdoor cats, never scratch the furniture, although
        Oliver does claw the hall carpet from time to time.  They all
        perform their pedicures on tree trunks in the garden.  I would
        be interested to know whether any owners of indoor/outdoor cats
        do have problems with clawed furniture?
    
    Helen. 
    

RE: .21

>>    I guess I'm lucky that everyone uses the scratching tree/post/tube
>>    (including clawless Alex, and it breaks my heart every time I see
>>    her trying to use it).

>I see no reason to feel sorry for you cat when he/she practices a behavior
>that satisfies an instinct and DON'T get yelled at in the process..

I feel sorry for her because she desperately wants to climb to the top of the
7 foot cattree and she can't shinny herself up (if she had claws, she could
climb it). She is the kind of cat that tries to use scratching furniture, yet
someone declawed her anyway.

>My friend tried that and her cat crawled under the cover and clawed
>the furniture - obviously not a solution.

Obviously not a solution for her cat.
                         ^^^ ^^^ ^^^    
>Deb, obviously you did not READ my reply, but read a few words and jumped
>off into the ethernet.....I did not suggest that a person who was home
>only 4 hours a night was IGNORING the cat (in fact I spend lots of time
>playing with mine and I'm sure other people do too), but I was suggesting
>the problem arises DURING THE TIME THE PERSON HAS TO BE OUT OF THE HOUSE -
>like to work. 

I certainly *DID* *READ* your reply before I "jumped off into the ethernet".
You asked what can people do train their cat that aren't around the house a
lot. My point is that a lot of people want to just snap their fingers and have
the cat trained; a lot of them don't want to invest the time to do the
training but then complain endlessly about how the cat misbehaves or, in severe
cases, just decides to declaw the cat. Or show inconsistent discipline even
when at home (.10 is a good example of this). It is for this reason that I ask
if you don't have the time to make and maintain your investment in your
relationship with your pet, why bother to have it? I might add that *I* and
most of the people that read this file presumably work full time (I'v been known
to put in 60-80 hour weeks) and breaking the clawing problem (before it got to
be a habit) was not an easy issue to resolve; it took a lot of time and patience.
And I might add, I find that when I haven't paid much attention to Eirene or
Pip, they make a *POINT* of scratching my easy chair while I'm in it.
Interestingly enough, all I have to do to stop it is to pick up kitty, cuddle
her for a few minutes while softly explaining why she shouldn't scratch the
furniture. 99.9999% of the time the cat walks away purring and doesn't scratch
the chair again. Hence the problem seems to be a need for attention, and I'm
sure that my cats are not the only ones that will act this way. By the way,
this was a case where water or yelling just made matters worst. Based on this
experience, this is why I say that the problem might just be the cat wants to
get some attention (and negative attention is better than none).  

RE: .22

>    I have never ignored them
>    if they come to me. 

I suspect that the operative phrase is "if they come to me". I don't read
anything here about you initiating the attention. Maybe just spending 10 or
20 minutes playing a "game" or grooming a few times a week would help.

>    And if you read this notes file regularly you should know by the
>    frequency and contents of my notes that my cats bring me alot of
>    happiness and that nobody could love their cats more than I do
>    (as much, yes, but not more).

Yes, I do read this file regularly (in fact, I am one of the moderators).
And what you've just said serves to reinforce my opinion.  Karen, I've read
your notes about the antics of your cats. At first, I thought that they were
just the antics of high-energy kittens. But after awhile, it sounded to me
like your kittens were just being mischievous just to get some attention (or
to get back at you for not giving them attention). I know that if I'm really
busy for a stretch of several days and don't pay a lot of attention to the cats,
they succeed in getting my attention by either destroying the house while I'm
out or doing something in my presence that they know will get my attention
*immediately*. 
   
    	
>    I really was disappointed to read your comment : if you haven't
>    got the time, why have the pet?  I give my cats the time that
>    I have and I know that they are happy.  My cats are two of the
>    most well balanced cats that I have ever seen.  They are not
>    afraid of strangers (or anything for that matter) in fact, they
>    are quite friendly.  They don't have any dirty habits, illnesses,
>    or mental problems.  They are extremely well cared for and very
>    happy.  And they love me!!  Maybe I don't have much time, but I
>    have enough for them.  And they have added so much to my life.
>    I am always watching them play and talking to them and smiling
>    at their antics.  I really can't express how much they mean to me!

I never said that you didn't love your cats, or vice-versa. And I'm quite
sure that their physical needs are well met. I wonder about their emotional
needs, however.  Is .10 an example of how you really feel? Is that the kind
of discipline that you consistently apply? What do you expect? You say there
that with the next cat, you aren't even going to try. Maybe that says it all.

As for not having any bad habits, unless your notes have been gross
exaggerations, I'd say that if their acts of terrorism/destructiveness aren't
bad habits, then they must be cries for attention.

Deb  
    

    	I think note .23 has said it all.  I started the note
        asking for a reputable vet, which I have found.  This is
    	the first time I have ever entered a note in Feline's and
     	am not happy with most of the responses.  It seems to me that
        some individuals are very judgemental and harsh towards some
    	peoples opinions.  I understand that this notesfile is for
    	opinions, but not when it gets to the point where some are
    	thrashing out at each other.  Seems to me that the Vets are
    	the experts, and that's where I'm getting my valued information
    	from.  Again, that's why I began this note.  
    
    	Deb note .26.  I don't understand how you've continued to be
    	a moderator when you thrash out at individuals as you have,
        and allow for such behavior to continue as it has.  For a first
    	time noter, I'm not impressed.

    SET FLAME/ON

RE: .27

I'm sorry you are not impressed. And I agree, that this note did get off the
topic of what you began it as. However, as for my "thrashing out" at
individuals, did it ever occur to you that as a *reader* I am getting annoyed
by people that write a bunch of notes about how cute it is that their cats
wreck the house, and then those same people write a bunch of notes about how
angry they are that their cats wreak the house and they have tried everything
except spending time, and then give multiple excuses on why they can't spend
time training them, and then they declare that they aren't even going to try!
As a moderator, I have to *READ* every note in this file, and I find these
inconsistencies very maddening. For goodness sakes, all I am suggesting is that 
just MAYBE the cat is crying out for a bit of attention!! Why does the idea of 
that seem to strike a raw nerve with people?

As for how I've "continued to be a moderator when I thrash out at individuals
as I have", once you've read through all 1300+ notes (and their replies) in
this file, please show me someplace else that I have "thrashed out" at people.
I'm afraid that thinking about .20 hit a sore spot with me. You'd be surprised
at how many times I've bitten my tongue when I've wanted to express an opinion
that might be controversial, just because I am a moderator. This time I felt
too strongly on the issue to keep quiet. 

Oh, and I'll say it again; if you feel the need to flame me, please save the
bandwidth and send me mail.

SET FLAME/OFF
Deb

    Hear, hear for Deb.  I've had the same feelings she has from reading
    various notes in this file;  I think some people think cats are
    dolls and I'm glad Deb said what I was thinking about responsible
    pet ownership.  However, it's not clear that this note is going to
    do anything productive if it goes on, so perhaps we ought to end it here.
                                          

I'm sorry I didn't do this sooner, but this note is now being set nowrite.
It's clear that people have very strong feelings on this issue that have
been held in abeyance for about the past year due to the desire to be polite.
One of the reasons I let it go was that I thought maybe open discussion would
lay the subject to rest;  I now see how wrong I was.  Another reason I held
off shutting it down was because I was afraid if I did this after either 
a pro- or con- declawing response it would appear that I was trying to 
suppress that side of the argument and I was trying not to take sides here.

My apologies to all.  I really hate to put a damper on people's discussions
in general, but I have now learned that it's important to jump in sooner before
things really get out of hand.

Pam