Conference misery::feline_v1

    Lori Hogland's number is 207-948-5484. Forgot that detail!

    Although I have heard a lot about the physical characteristics of
    Maine Coon's, what are their dispositions like?  Do they make good
    indoor only pets?  What are the prettiest patterns/colors that they
    come in?
    
    I didn't realize just how many breeders there are out there other
    than what is advertised in the cat magazines.
    
    Just curious,
    
    Thanks,
    Roberta
    
    

    Roberta,
    
    I think you'll find that only very big breeders advertise in Cats
    Magazine....Just look at how much it cost to advertise there!!!
    It's out of range for most small breeders like myself who only has
    a couple of litters a year.  
         
    Maine Coons come in just about any color or pattern, although, the
    Brown Tabby version are the most traditional and most available.
    
    As far as indoors vs outdoors with Coons, I think it depends on
    how the kitten has been raised.  If you get a kitten from a breeder
    who has raised many generations indoors, that particular kitten
    is going to have a difficult time adjusting to the outdoors because
    they don't have the natural instinct as say a kitten that has been
    raised in a barn.
    
    purrs
    cin
    
    

    Thanks, Cin, for the information.  It was very helpful.
    
    Just how does one go about finding out who the smaller breeders
    are?  Through word of mouth perhaps?
    

    That's about it....word of mouth, cat shows, vets, pet supply stores.
     
    I post business cards at Pet Supply stores, Vet bulletin boards,
    and pass them out at Cat Shows.  I get lots of repeat business,
    or business from friends of someone who bought a kitten, etc.  
    My family and friends also spread the word if they hear of someone
    looking for a persian kitten.  
    
    If I were to advertise in Cats Magazine, I would never be able to
    "fill the orders".  I don't have kittens all the time, and in order
    to make an ad pay off, you have to.  
    
    And, of course, it always seems that I get the most calls when I
    don't have kittens, and then when I have a litter, I don't get the
    calls.  
    
    Of course, for people in DEC, this notes file is a great place to
    advertise....and an even better place to know the kittens are getting
    a great home.  
    
    If all else fails, I place an ad in the local newspaper.
    
    It's difficult if your trying to find a breeder, especially if you
    have no idea where to start looking.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    May I ask why Maine Coon breeders ( some ) insist on their animals
    being kept inside???  I can understand the neuter/spay restrictions...
    but I would think the 'maine coon' especially would love the
    outdoors...or could that be related to restrictions...Are Maine
    Coons considered to be "wilder" than other domestic kittys?
    
    I had just written in about "convincing hubby" ... A maine coon
    just might tip the scales for me! thanx for the research!!!
    
    n

>    May I ask why Maine Coon breeders ( some ) insist on their animals
>    being kept inside???  I can understand the neuter/spay restrictions...
>    but I would think the 'maine coon' especially would love the
>    outdoors...or could that be related to restrictions...Are Maine
>    Coons considered to be "wilder" than other domestic kittys?
    
I would bet that the concern is for the cat's longevity and safety...it
is a statistical fact that the average cat lives a 2/3 shorter life
span when allowed to go outside where predators, disease, and automobiles
can get the animal...and between dogs and other people's children
the predators out there are getting to be REAL dangerous to cats.
Remember, that nice area for the kitty to run around in is often a perfect
place for "the kids to shoot their air guns" or for "Rover to get his
exercise".

    I stopped up to see Lida Choate's kittens saturday morning...ended
    up 'reserving' 2!! An almost-white chinchila and what will be an
    almost-black pair of very cute (aren't they all?) kitens. The only
    thing is that they wouldn't be available to me until Memorial
    day...they are only 4 weeks old now. She has 3 litters in total
    of coons now. 2 that are 4 weeks and 1 that is 2 weeks old. She
    also raises Himalayas (SP?) and has a 4 week old litter available.
    Each cat gets plenty of personal TLC. These are her 'children'.
    Lida doesn't show the cats but the lineage is registered and she'll
    register any cat sold for $50 extra if the owner wants. Many of
    her clients show the cats. This apparently is one of the ways she
    keeps her costs down and sells them for $150. She does it more for
    the joy of having the cats around I think.
    
    If you are looking for a coon give her a try. See .1 for the tele
    number.
    
    If you get there early you're sure to get coffee, donuts and conversation!

    Hey breeders - does it cost $50.00 to register a litter?  Sounds
    a little high to me.  Penn, Cin, Bryan - ??
    
    E.T.
    

    No Elaine, it doesn't cost $50 to register a litter!!!  Actually,
    it cost $5.00.  
    
    Remember, that once a kitten has been registered, that means that
    that kitten can then be used to produce more "registered" kittens.
    
    
    I wonder what the extra $50 buys you in quality!!!!!   
    
    
    I don't doubt that the kittens are loveable and wonderful, but I
    have a little problem with any breeder who will determine that a
    kitten can be registered and bred simply because the future owner
    is willing to pay a little extra money.  
    
    To me, a pet cat is a pet cat, no matter the breed, and an extra
    fee isn't going to change that pet cat into a breeder quality cat.
     
    
    But I better not get started on this....
    
    cin
    

    That seems to be the way the AKC (American Kennel Club)
    works too, Cin.  All an AKC registered pup means is that
    the parents were AKC registered.  It says/guarantees
    nothing in terms of the quality of the dog.  And yet
    I notice a lot of puppy advertisement touts this as
    though it's a big deal.
    
    Donna

    Also, remember that both CFF and CFA register the litter.  That
    means if one person decides to pay the extra $50, then all the rest
    of the kittens in the litter are registered at the same time with
    the same $5.00.
    
    Quite a deal, eh!!!  Anyway, I would be cautous of any breeder offering
    this "deal"!!!   The extra $50.00 doesn't change the pet's quality
    at all. 
    
    Also, I'ld be a little leary of any "breeder" who doesn't show her
    cats strictly to keep the costs down.   
    
    just my .02
    cin
    

    RE:  .12
    
    Cin,
    
    Are you therefore saying that the price difference between selling
    a kitte with papers and without papers should only be $5?
    
    Marion

re: registrations

As Cindy said, it only costs a few dollars to register a litter.  The 
litter registration isn't really "papers", though.  After you've picked a 
name, you fill out the litter registration, and send it back to the 
registry (CFF, CFA, ACFA, TICA, CROWN, etc, etc) with some more dollars, 
and then you get "papers".  Typically, kittens are sold with litter 
registrations, and the new owner sends them in, or not.  (There's no time 
limit.)

Most breeders will give you the litter registration no matter what quality 
(pet, breeder, show) the cat is.  For pets, most times the litter 
registration will be held back until you've provided proof of neutering.

$50 extra for "papers" sounds strange to me.

Ray

    Lida did say that it costs $5.00 to register the cat (or was it the
    litter?...I didn't pay that much attention...only interested in a
    non breeding pet). I think she thought it was more of a nuisance
    for anyone who wanted a pet to have it registered but if someone
    wanted it done she would do it...buyers choice, no 'increase in
    quality'.
    
    She's an old woman, late 60's, lives alone and simply loves cats.
    
    She talks alot, tells a few stories, pets the cats and feeds you
    coffee and donuts.
    
    If someone is really interested in finding out about her
    breeding/registering habits give her a call and report back.

    About breeding but not showing:
    
    I've only been to one cat show in my life, but I really felt sorry
    for the cats there.  The room was so filled with cigarette smoke
    you could hardly see, and it was so noisy you could hardy think.
    Masses of people everywhere.  Complete misery for any cat I know,
    for sure, and I found it very unpleasant.  Occasionally I've met
    someone who shows cats, and from what they say, this show was not
    atypical.  So, I can easily imagine someone wanting to breed cats but
    not wanting to put either the cats or themselves thru that.
    

    Most of the shows I attend do not allow smoking in the show hall.
    Masses of people - yup, there sure are - it seems that the kids
    don't mind that too much - the only way I can tell is by the
    sleeping positions they assume in their cage.  If they are
    curled up with their chins tipped up and paws under their
    chinsl (like at home) they are in a deep sleep - also, if
    you manage to get a rosette or two or three, we hang them
    on the front of the cage and block one side - the side that
    they are sleeping on - I also hang a sign on the front of
    the cage that says: DON'T WAKE ME IF I'M SLEEPING.  Other
    exhibitors laughed when they saw it, but the gate kootchies
    to a sleeping cat and they don't realize that the animal
    gets up real early to go to a show, has a bath the night
    before - and needs its rest.
    
    Sorry to run on - they seem to become used to the show hall
    and if they don't I leave them home.
    
    E.T.

From reading this note, I can sure tell who breeds and shows!  :^)

Many issues have been raised here.

Re "buying a Maine Coon":

The cost to register a litter and a kitten (both total << $50) is not why show 
cats cost more.  They cost more because it takes generations for a breeder to 
produce top quality.  The breeder has to pay for stud fees or purchase a stud,
plus years of energy and expenses.

If you think the kitties are cute, then buy them as is.  However, if you wish 
to purchase a SHOW QUALITY MAINE COON then do *not* buy there.  Send me e-mail
and I'll give you a set of quality breeders, both in Maine and Mass. 

Cindy, Elaine et al are correct:  Stay away from any "breeder" who is trying 
to give you a line about how much it costs to register the cat. 

Let's be honest:  Do you, as a non-breeder, really know what a "Maine Coon" 
looks like?  I could go to an animal shelter and tell you it's a purebred
(although chances are the kitty will have Maine Coon in its background) and you 
wouldn't know the difference.

"Papers" only mean the cats lineage can be traced; they do not mean the cat is 
a good example of the breed.  Don't forget that "papers" can be forged also.

If you are really interested, send me mail.  I'm glad to help.

---------------

Re "Cat Shows":

From my experience as a breeder/exhibitor, No Smoking rules are almost 
universal.  Whoever told you otherwise was absolutely incorrect.

--------------

Re "Indoor vs. outdoor":

This has been discussed numerous times elsewhere.  Regardless of the type of 
cat, the choice is your own.  I prefer to keep them inside; others do not.

    Re: no smoking
    
    The (smoke-filled) show I was at was in Calif.  The breeders I have
    talked to are also Californians.
                  
    

I HAVE BEEN TO MANY CAT SHOWS IN NORTH AMERICA AND FIND THEY VARY FROM
    PLACE TO PLACE WITH REGARDS TO SMOKING/NONSMOKING OFTEN DEPENDING
    ON THE LOCAL LAWS.  MOST CATS IF NOT ENJOY AT LEAST BECOME USED
    TO THE HUSTLE AND BUSTLE (OFTEN IT IS THE HOUSEHOLD PETS WHO FREAK
    OUT - AS THEY ARE NOT USED TO SHOWING).   WHILE THE CAGE SETUPS ARE
    PHENOMENAL, I THINK I PREFER THE WAY THEY SHOW IN THE UK.  THE
    CATS ARE LEFT IN FARILY SPARTAN CAGES AND THE JUDGES GOTO THE CATS
    THAT WAY ALL THE JUDGING IS COMPLETED IN A REASONABLE SPACE OF TIME.
    YOU DON'T HAVE TO SIT AROUND ALL DAY (OR TWO) TO SHOW FOR 4 JUDGES
    IN A THAT TIME PERIOD.  YES I CAN THINK OF DISADVANTAGES TO THIS
    AS WELL - BUT IT WAS JUST A LITTLE LESS HECTIC (FOR OWNER AND CAT)
    AND NOT AS STRESSING FOR THE OWNER......
    

    Tabbatha and Silver became quite stressed at their first show, but
    after that, they were old pros.  We have decided not to show Tabbatha
    (our HHP) until she is older.  She was QUITE upset at the first
    show and we figure that she may mellow with age.  We are going to
    show her in the June show in Springfield.  
    
    Silver on the other hand, I think she likes it.  She loves to flirt
    with the cat in the next cage (Right cin?).  When they are in their
    cage, they just curl up together and go to sleep.  In fact, Tabbatha
    stretched out at the last show and most of the spectators commented
    "Gee, she's quite upset about the show, eh?":-)
    
    Holly
    
    p.s. RE: -1  (shhhhh...please don't shout.....shhhhh)
    

    Yes, I do agree that show halls differ from club to club.  I have
    noticed that at the few CFA shows I attended/showed - that smoking
    was allowed IN the show hall (much to my surprise).  I'm sure that
    there is a big difference from coast to coast.  One of the HHP
    exhibitors that I show with here in the East has been flying to
    the mid-West and she has been telling us how different it is 
    there!  I have read articles about showing in Europe, and find
    them very interesting!!  I would think that showing the European
    way WOULD be much less stressful for both the cat and the humans.
    Maybe we could take a lesson from the Europeans.  It sure would
    lessen the heavy-duty politics problem....
    
    E.T.

    Re  No Smoking being universal
    
    I don't know what the show was at the Copley Plaza but
    I think there was smoking there?  If I remember you
    correctly E.T.  I was just about to approach your cage
    when you and your neighbor both lit up cigarettes.  I
    stayed away.  Two of the four shows I've been to had
    smoking so I don't know how 'universal' the no-smoking
    really is, but I agree with a previous noter - it should
    be banned.  It's bad for the cats anyway! (-:
    
    Donna

    Yup, it was a CFA show - we got were so used to going out
    into the hall - that smoking at the bench was a novelty
    we decided to try - decided soon after that it wasn't a
    good idea. We really felt like we were "going to get caught"
    when we tried smoking in the benching area.   
    If the show hall is as large as the Copley
    Marriott was (huge) and well ventilated (it was) not
    like the Copley Plaza - it could work.  Other times you
    will see smoking at a CFF show will be at the very end
    of the show when the benches are being broken down and
    most of the people and cats are crated are ready to go
    home.  We are usually one of the last to leave the hall
    because they give the HHP awards very late - takes time
    for the Master Clerk to score the show.  I smoke a home
    so my cats are used to some smoke.  A room full of every
    one smoking would be very hard to any cat or person to
    handle.    If smoke stops you from looking in the cages
    of exhibitors smoking, try a CFF show.  The smokers will
    be out in the smoking area - out of 150 exhibitors, there
    may be one or two with ash trays under their cages, but
    they are few and far between.

    re: availability of Maine Coon Kitties
    
    About 1 week ago, Jeff and I saw two different litters of Maine
    Coon kitties - about 6 weeks old. At that time, one litter had a
    little male red mackeral available and the other little had two
    boys and a girl Brown classic.
    
    Both litters were from "show" adults, one I think was Champion status.
    Since we're just looking for a fur-face, I didn't pay much attention.
    
    We found both breeders through CATS magazine and neither seemed
    to be big-time breeders - so, it's worth a try. Of course, this
    was in Maryland, so maybe just having a litter makes you a big-time
    Maine Coone breeder down here!

    I do have a quick question - both litters were not going to be ready
    until the kittens are twelve weeks old - is this normal for breeders?
    I've always heard  6 - 8 weeks used.
    
    janet b.

    PS - of course, as yo may have guessed, we couldn't resist, so,
    as of June 10th, we will be a two kitty household again! We are
    counting the days!
    home to us - June 10th. 

    holding kittens till 12 weeks.
    
    Most Maine breeders of my acquaintance insist on keeping the cats
    with the mother for at least 12 weeks.  Seems some studies were
    done that showed that the longer a kitten was with the mother (up
    till around 20-24 weeks) the calmer and more stable the kitten
    was.  In my personal experience, the one cat I had problems with
    was taken from her mother at 8 weeks.  Lulu never got to the point
    where she could handle humans or even other cats. 
    
    Dave

    Penn - Cinn - ?? 
    
    I think that breeders keep kittens 12 - 14 weeks for many different
    reasons - one is to see exactly what the quality of the kitten is.
    Show - Pet.  They also like to make sure that the animal is healthy
    with no problems.  They also will be able to start their shots
    and socialize the kittens after they are weaned from the dam.
    I have taken 7 - 8 weeks old kittens and they were and are fine
    now.  Guess it depends on the individual animal.  Some breeders
    hold kittens for 16 weeks.
    
    E. T.

re: How long to keep kittens

We, and many other breeders, keep kittens for at least 12-14 weeks before 
we sell/place them.

That last month produces a *big* change in the kitten's personality.  
Kittens separated too early tend to be a bit neurotic.  Also, they've had 
time to get their initial two rounds of vaccinations.

Most of the kitten's socialization happens from around age 7 to 13 weeks.

Ray

    I can understand why many people plead for a kitten at a younger
    age, but I keep them until at least 12 weeks:  that is when they
    have their last shots and final vet exam.  I want to be as certain
    as possible that any kittens/cats I sell are healthy and up to date
    on all shots.  A kitten with potential for show quality would be
    kept longer until I decide just what the quality is...and then I
    would either sell it as show quality, or, more likely, keep it!
    
    	P

    I also keep kittens until 12 - 14 weeks, although, I have occasionally
    let them go as early as 10 weeks, but this is the absolute minimum.
    

    I keep kittens until 12 weeks.  At that time, if they weigh over
    a pound, they can go to a household *that already has cats*.  If
    the kitten is to be an "only kitten"  hang on to her for a while
    longer.  If the kitten is not yet a pound, I will wait until he/she
    is.
    
    Marion 

    I keep kittens til the are a minimum of 16 weeks (and also 5 lbs).
    Marion and I must have different breeds of cats, 8^).  This is because
    of socialization, vaccines, and Joui likes to keep them nursing
    until at least 12 weeks.
    
    I find that they are much better adjusted to go to new homes at
    this age.
    
    I agree with Cin and Matt about people who breed but don't show.
    From my point of view, $150 is not a bargain if the woman has no
    show expenses, doesn't pay to register the kittens, isn't paying
    stud fees to anyone, and isn't breeding to the standard.
    
    I show quite extensively in California, Utah, and Washington and
    have not found show halls to be smoke-filled.  Most of the show
    halls in the bay area are non-smoking because of city ordinances.
    I do not smoke and usually request non-smoking benching if the show
    hall is not non-smoking.  Futhermore, judges are prohibited from
    smoking in the ring.  I think the combination of these things help
    protect my cats from the smoke.  I have found that Birmans have
    sensitive eyes (blue eyes are more sensitive to environmental factors)
    and wouldn't show them if I was concerned about their health.
    
    Jo

    5# is just the females!  The show boy was 7 1/2 pounds at 16 weeks!
    And we aren't even in Texas!
    
    Jo
    
    PS - it was actually a very funny sight to see a 7 1/2 lb. kitten
    trying to nurse off his 7 lb (on a good day) mother.