Conference misery::feline_v1

    At the risk of rekindling a very old, and emotional
    controversy, might I refer you to the INDOOR/OUTDOOR
    note in FELINE?  Keeping cats indoors is not cruel,
    and I find it offensive for people to suggest so.
    
    Donna
    

    Not only is it NOT cruel, it's the only way you will
    have live cats.  I guess if you want dead cats - 
    let them out.

    Don't shout at me, but I believe confining cats that have been
    accustomed to going outside is cruel.  If the cat has never known
    anything different, that's probably OK.
    
    My cats all go outside, and I could never keep them in permanently.
    (Incidentally, they do like to sit on a nice warm car bonnet, and
    if you find out how to stop them, let me know!)
    
    Helen.

    I also feel it is cruel to confine a cat that has had the opportunity
    to go outside.  I have two cats, and they were strictly indoor cats
    until we moved in with my mother.  She has a nice big yard, and
    the street is not very busy, they LOVE it outside.  Now I am probably
    more protective about letting them out, I will always watch for
    them and I don't let them out after dark.  The pretty much stay
    in the yard.  They cry and cry and cry if I don't let them out.
    
    I worry about them, and I can understand some cat owners to have
    strictly indoors (busy streets, apt living, etc) but once they have
    been used to going outside, it's sad to have to keep them in.
    
    I don't think that you are going to break them of the habit of sitting
    on a car, though.  If it was just one particular car, you could
    squirt them with water.  Maybe you can gradually get them used to
    being indoors, and just take them out when you can watch them? 
    Living in a condo, I would be careful.  I wouldn't trust anyone
    especially since they are all complaining about your critters.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Anna/zildjian/paradiddle
    

         Please read 1282.1.  My fiance's cats were indoor/outdoor,
    but have nicely adjusted to being indoor only (my cat was indoor
    only and I didn't want him going out).  I don't think the boys think
    that their "confinement" is cruel - in fact they now don't even
    want to go out, except to be with us.  And they were your typical
    indoor/outdoors cats - out all night on warm nights, catching mice,
    etc.
    
         I can sort of identify with the others in the condo; went I
    lived in a Marlboro apartment complex (Windsor Heights), the only
    parking was, of course, outdoor.  I had just bought a brand-new
    1984 Trans Am, my pride and joy.  When neighborhood cats would climb
    all over the car, I didn't like it either, especially when the car
    got scratched.  My solution was to get a car cover (one of those
    nice fleece-lined water-repellent ones, not the plastic ones). 
    It was a bit of a pain in the neck to take it off each morning and
    put it on each night, but it saved the paint job on the car and
    any friction with the neighbors (I obviously do love cats and would
    never hurt or frighten one, but it *was* getting annoying).  Perhaps
    you can suggest car covers to the neighbors?  

    In reading the other replies, especially .5, their is not easy solution
    to the problem.  First, asking many people to buying car covers
    is asking a lot especially if there are 20 cars or so.  Not only
    would you be asking people to take the responsibility of solving
    a problem they did not create there is the expense and bother. 
    We
    live in a condo and our cat stays indoors unless you want to count
    a screened porch outdoors.  She was a stray that we found at the
    animal shelter.  As much as we like cats, it is VERY annoying after
    we have washed our car to have paw prints and scratches on our new
    car.  I can see both sides to the situation, but keeping your cats
    in and only letting them out when you are with them would seem to
    be the best solution for all concerned.  Also, some people might
    get tired of complaining and take action.  An angry person might
    not care what happens to the cat that he/she catches.  For your
    pet's sake you need to take positive action quickly.

    I agree having an outdoor cat in a condo complex is very annoying to
    your neighbors.  We live in a condominium complex and I do get a
    little peeved when they eat my flowers, scratch my car, tear at the
    garbage in my garage and use under my deck for their litter box.  I
    will put up with it however cause I love cats!  I know many people who
    won't! My cat is strictly an indoor cat with outdoor privleges when we
    can supervise her in our yard.  I don't want our kitty subject to
    others punishment if she annoys them.   And she doesn't mind - she will
    sit by an open door with no urge to jump outside.  The only time she
    cries to come outside is when I'm out working in the yard or sitting on
    the deck - she just likes to be with her people. 
    
    Be wary of cranky neighbors.
    
    Suzanne
    
    

    I look on this problem (indoor/outdoor) very pragmatically. From
    my perspective, "cruelty" is an interesting word. I consider a cat
    having been run over, attacked by a raccoon or other predator, etc.
    as having been subjected to more cruelty than one having had its life
    style modified somewhat. If I were to accept the life style argument
    as cruelty, I certainly would have to assume neutering was cruel
    - especially in light of those who say the animal should be allowed
    one fling before being fixed (strange euphamism - broken seems better).
    But we seem to be very selective, based on our "better judgement"
    about them.  Neutering is OK - keeping them in after they have been
    out is not. Since we are REALLY catering to ourselves and our own
    mental well being, I believe that having to suffer through one maimed
    pet would be much worse than putting up with their imagined torments
    at being confined. I can accept the decision of those who allow
    their pets outside, but they cause ME more mental anguish than I
    will ever cause myself by keeping mine in.
    
    Offered in a spirit of understanding, and with best wishes to all the
    felines and their "masters" out there.
    
    Gary

    
    
    	O.K. - here goes MY opinion.....
        Flame on-
    
    	Re: 1287.0
    
    	These cats are YOUR responsibile - not your neighbors.  I truly
    	love cats, but not everyone does.  If you can't keep/won't keep
    	the cats in, then expect to be thrown out of your condo.  You
    	knew the rules when you moved in and now you have to live by
    	them.  
    
    	I personally like to keep my car clean and take alot of time
    	doing it.  It would tick me off to have cat prints all over
    	it.  Put yourself in the other guys shoes.  Take responsiblity
    	for your cats!
    
    	Flame off-

    I'm sorry - but I'm not shouting - It's just my opinion.
    I've read and read notes about cats having all these problems
    outside.  Some day those folks who let their cats out will
    be entering a similar note.  It just seems to be a fact
    of life for outdoor cats.  The bottom line is that when
    you let a cat out the chances are he will be dead a lot
    sooner than an indoor cat.  Your choice - Your responsibility!
    
    

    I agree that it is the cat owners responsibility to keep the cats
    away from the cars.  It is not up to the owners of the vehicles
    to take the responsibility upon themselves (never mind the cost
    of the car-covers).
    
    Lightning and DejaVu have always been indoor cats but they do go
    out in the yard (fenced in) in the summer-time.  They are very happy,
    healthy and not marked or maimed by cars or dogs.
    
    I am very emphatic about keeping cats indoors.  As I have said in
    past notes,  I would hate to lose them to cars, dogs, people or
    poisons.
    
    Train your cats to be indoors only or suffer the consequences.
    
    Sandi (Lightning's & DejaVu's mom)
    
    

    As an owner of an indoor/outdoor, I personally don't feel that they
    will be dead a lot sooner than a completely indoor.  Although their
    chances *are* much greater, a lot of it has to do with the area
    you live in as well as the cat's ability to survive the great outdoors.
    I know my Chauncey is a true surviver and very street-wise.  He
    also sticks very close to home; most of the time he just bags out
    on the balcony or front steps.  My mom has 4 indoor/outdoor and
    3 of them are 10 years or older.  I'm not flaming here, because
    personally, after Chauncey and Nikki are gone, my next cats will
    definitely be indoor only.
    
    But I agree with the Elaine - if your neighbors are complaining,
    keep the cat inside before some cat-hating "person" takes drastic
    action.  I witnessed my neighbor across the street chase Chauncey
    out of his garage (which he leaves open *all* the time day and night
    so it was really is fault) with a loud "GET OUT OF HERE."  Fortunately,
    Chauncey got the hint and has not crossed the street since (he only
    goes out when I'm home to keep an eye on him).  There really is
    nothing you can do to keep your cats off the neighbor's cars, so
    your only other alternatives are to pay for the damages or keep
    the cats in.
    

    I am a firm believer in indoor-only cats for many, many reasons
    (discussed elsewhere in this conference).  But, I also believe it is a
    personal decision for each pet owner. 
    
    However, let's NOT say it is cruel to keep a cat indoors.  This
    statement attributes a subjective human evaluation of a condition 
    (being confined to a house) to an animal whose every need is being
    catered to by loving human-parents!  I suggest that it is indeed
    a rare cat who cannot be converted happily to an indoor-only cat.
    Cats are much more interested in food, water, shelter, and comfort
    than they are in "freedom."  I doubt they understand the meaning
    of this human concept.  And there are many of us who can point out
    the "cruelties" of subjecting a cat to the perils of the great
    outdoors! 
    
    Again, it's a personal choice to make your cats indoor-only or i/o
    cats.  But the end result of neither choice is cruelty.

         I agree with Doris.  Howie and I thought long and hard about
    Bigfoot and Fluffy - should we keep them in, should we let them
    go in and out and if so, how do we keep Loki from following them?
    Since he moved in last winter, we kept the boys indoors so as not
    to subject them to the weather, and give them time to adjust.
    
         The change in these two is simply marvelous.  Fluffy, who was
    always scrawny and hyperactive, has put on a couple of well-needed
    pounds and, although he has his crazy moments, is settling down
    a bit.  We can even hold him (when *he* wants :-) ) for a while,
    where before he could not be picked up or pet.  His coat is a lot
    cleaner (he's a Turkish angora :== longhaired!) too - no more pine
    sap bundles!
    
         Bigfoot has also put on some well-needed pounds, is more loving
    and has a clean, shiny coat as well.  He's also become a lot more
    social and a lot less skitterish.  They are both having trouble
    adjusting to their brother Loki (and he to them), but I suspect
    that the adjustment would be a lot more difficult if they were going
    out and he wasn't.  Loki was feral and, I believe, if he were let
    out he would go feral again.  He's scared to death of people and
    would never think of going up to one for food - he'd survive on
    his own and probably starve or worse.
    
         So ... try to keep your kids indoors.  They may raise holy
    h*ll for a few days, so keep any breakables out of their reach!;
    they may be just fine and dandy like Fluffy and Bigfoot.  I just
    worry that the non-cat people out there will do some harm to your
    kids, and that's the *last* thing you need.
    
    
         (Oh, yes.  Only true car fanatics like myself would get car
    covers, I know.  But then, I have the Trans Am now parked in my
    garage.  The Diesel Rabbit is outside, and I frankly don't care
    what happens to that one; The neighborhood cats must know that
    and don't bother it (doesn't it figure?).  Maybe they don't care
    for the bright yellow color ... perhaps your neighbors could paint
    their cars yellow?  ;^) ;^) ;^) )
                                                                

Well, after reading .1-.14, and finding most of them being on the subject
of the "Cruelty of keeping cats indoors", I take it there is no way
to keep cats from climbing all over cars?   There is a cat in my 
neighborhood that *constantly* climbs on my cars. It leaves scratches,
mud and hair everywhere! Well, yesterday was the last straw: When I came 
out of the house I found that the cat had relieved itself (or, maybe was 
sick, I didn't examine the evidence *that* closely) all over the roof of 
my car!  Is there any product sold that, if sprayed around the carport, 
will be offensive to the cats and keep them away?  What can I do if the 
neighbors refuse to take responsibility for their cat? Or worse, if the 
cats are strays and there is nobody to take responsibility for them?

I refuse to incur the expense and hassle of a car cover because of 
someone else's pet.

Any other suggestions?

    How about cat repellant on the tires?  You'd have to get an outdoor
    brand so rain wouldn't wash it away.
    
    Or you could get a big dog... ;-)
    
    

    Have you tried hanging ballons on your car. I know it sounds strange,
    but it worked for a friends father. There was a neighbors cat climbing
    all over his car. The car was brand new and he had talked to the
    neighbors about keeping the cat in there yard. The neighbors ignored
    his request. He got some ballons and tied them to his car. The cat
    came over and climbed on the car and started playing with one of
    the ballons. The ballon burst and the noise scared the cat. The
    cat never got on the car again. The cat still came over to visit
    which the man didn't mind, but the cat never got on the car again.