Conference misery::feline_v1

    Maybe we don't want to reopen this just at this moment.
    There's an ASK THE BREEDERS note that you should refer
    to, as well as note 1109.
    
    Donna

    Sorry? I looked through the titles and only saw one note on breeding
    that didn't really ask the same questions?  Note 1109 doesn't really
    have anything to do with breeding?  Also I looked through the
    Notesfiles list and didn't find one called ASK THE BREEDERS?
    
    Corine

re: .2

You may want to read all 45 responses to 1109, and then maybe you'll see 
what Donna was talking about in .1.  Have the answer to the question "Why 
do you want to do this?" in mind when you're reading.

Ray

    Have you checked with your vet?
    
    Most vets are only too willing to answer such questions over the
    phone.

    No, there is not a notesfile called ASK THE BREEDERS, it's a
    note in this conference.  A "DIR/TITLE="BREED" yields quite
    a few notes, including the note titled "Ask the Breeders".
    Check the notes out completely as they often start discussing
    one thing and get slightly off the topic.  You can't always
    go by the title alone.  
    
    Donna

    Slightly!
    
    BOY did I open up a bad can of worms!  I just finished reading ALL
    of 1109!  I have just resently started reading this notes file and
    really tried to make sure I wasn't repeating a subject.  I'll have
    to say one thing, after reading 1109 I don't think I'll ever add
    another entry for fear of being tromped on!  There are some SHARP
    tounges out there!
    
    Corine

    Re: .7
    
    Actually 1109 is _very_ atypical.  As one of the replies said, mention
    breeding or declawing.....
    

    re.7
    dont be afraid to enter things in here or anywhere else.
    sure i got tromped on,but if you have a question or a problem about
    catsthe people in here wont hesitate to help you(or your cats).
    this file is not about people but the love of cats and that should
    overide everthing else.
    
    kelly

    Please don't hesitate to enter anything here - I think you
    should feel as free as everyone else to express your feelings.
    Folks don't have to agree with them - just read them!
    Welcome to Feline!!
    
    E.T.

    Thank you for the welcome!  I have always adored cats,but couldn't
    have them because my sister is allergic and refused to try or take
    anything for it.  Now I have my own home and its really nice to
    have other people to talk to (or write) that love cats too!  And
    also know alot about them.  I did ask my vet's assistant about breeding 
    her and she seemed to think it was a good idea, but didn't know
    how to go about it.  I guess I need to do alot more research.  I
    do understand that a group of people are not going to agree all
    the time, I just think they could be diplomatic about their opinions.
    Hows the saying go?  "You would never catch bees with vinegar!"
    
    I'd like to ask one question, (please be kind, I cry easy!) what
    about the cat?  Isn't it part of her nature to want to have kittens?
    I did manage to have a couple of cats when I was growing up.  One
    of them did have kittens.  As little as I was, I can remember looking 
    at her with all her babys and thinking how happy and content she looked.
    
    Faucet Face!
    
    Corine
    
    

    RE.11
    Well,Corine
    This question is often disputed but I'll toss in my opinion. Personally
    I have three females, one siamese who is breeding quality, but I
    had them all spayed and none seem to be the worse for it. It seems
    that people often impose deep human emotions to animals such as
    "mother love". I have seen momma cats with their kits and it is
    very sweet to watch, if she has them she generally cares for them.
    Question is, is it instinct because she has them? or is it a burning
    desire to have children? watching my five felines I tend to hold
    my own personal belief that animals learn from the past and deal
    always in the present situation, in other words, what they don't
    have to deal with at the present time does not concern them. 
    Cats do not go out in search of a male for the specific desire of
    getting pregnant, they go because they are in heat and nature calls
    which is unlike humans who have the ability to preplan this sort
    of thing if desired.
    Another point I would like to make that if after the birth of the
    kittens "is it fair to take the kittens away from the mother if
    she has grown attaatched to them"? I have heard the argument that
    people who do not allow a litter is denying the female the oppotunity
    for motherhood but then the same people will think nothing of one
    by one taking the kittens away from the mother.
    So I guess the choice is how one sees a cat's point of view. We
    can see whatever we want;unfortunately the cat can't speak for herself.
    So, as I speak for myself in this matter, I would not breed the
    cat unless I was prepared to keep the litter as what the female
    doesn't know won't effect her.
    
    Fran
    

    Those are very good points!  I myself never even thought about the
    "taking away part".  Which I'm suprised at myself for!  Because
    I worked on a horse farm and when they took a foal away from its
    mother, the mother would wail sooo pitifully I wanted to cry with
    her.  I want to thank you for not getting mad at me, I really and
    truly love my Sheena and all cats and want to do my best for her
    and others!
    
    Corine
    

RE: .11

I can't let this go without making these points (gently intended, I assure
you):

As much as we love out cats, lets remember they are not little reflections
of ourselves, but CATS.  The feline is a wonderful creature and adds
much to my world, but none of my cats think like me, or experience the
world the way I do because they are not human.  As far as science can tell
us, cats do not have an emotional "desire" for motherhood...rather, they
have an instinctive drive or compulsion to breed when the female is in
estrus or "heat".  This is nature's way of guarenteeing propagation of
the species.  Once kittens are weaned, they are set off on their own in
the wild and the mother cat seems to have no "special" feeling for her
adult offspring.  With these facts in mind, the questions become less
the emotional well-being of the cat and more the physical health of the
cat and her offspring.  All veternarians I have known agree that a
female that is spayed without giving birth to a litter is generally
in better life-long health; she lives a longer, healthier life.
Giving birth is stressful and physically challenging.  As there are too
many kittens in the world already, as evidenced by the number of cats
killed in shelters every year, it should become a question of whether
the cat to be bred is such a wonderful example of the breed that her
off-spring will enhance and strengthen the quality of the breed.
If this is so, then it becomes a worthwhile risk for the female.    

re: .11

Let me express my complete agreement with .14.  Don't breed your cat 
because you think it's better for the cat if you do.  It really is better
for the cat if you don't, for all the reasons expressed in .14.

There's a whole body of folk wisdom about the desirability of breeding a 
cat.  Most of this is contradicted by the facts.

And, yes, I think this conference is a good place to get the facts, or 
pointers to them.  (It's also a place where people aren't shy about giving
their opinions, solicited or otherwise.)

Ray

    further to .14, but a frequently disputed health-issue:
    
    Some studies indicate that a whole female increases the risk of
    a life shortened by soft-tissue cancers in addition to any trauma/distress
    suffered in the birth process with every estrus and that breeding
    mitigates but does eliminate this risk.  Spaying before first estrus
    eliminates any risk from elevated estrogen.  [Qualifier:  The risk
    is admittedly small in a young cat.  This is in NO WAY -- are you
    reading my lips? -- aimed at breeders]
    
    Most of the cats I've had fall into the category of "never had it
    never will" -- but those in the "potential for offspring" category
    were no more or no less interested in kittens per se.  [i.e.  I
    NEVER saw a cat in heat go over and nuzzle kittens and look in the
    least wistful...]
    
      Annie