Conference misery::feline_v1

    I don't know how these arrangements usually work, and you haven't
    included enough information so that we can tell what the agreement
    is that you made with the breeder:  was it your choice, her choice,
    or was there a genuine misunderstanding as to whose choice it was.
    But I think the important thing to ask yourself now is, do you want
    the cat?  If so, then you don't seem to have a problem to solve.
    If not, then the question is, will the deposit be refunded;  have
    you discussed this with her?
    

    Sounds like you don't want the cat since if you did you wouldn't
    be asking about the deposit.
    
    I say ask her for your deposit back because that is not the cat
    you wanted.  If she doesn't then take her to Small Claims Court.
    She has no right to keep your deposit if you don't get a cat.
    
    bobbi
    

    Re: .2 "She has no right to keep your deposit if you don't get a
    cat."
    
    Well, she does if the deposit is non-refundable and she offers a
    cat which is refused.  We don't have enough info here to know what
    arrangements they made (or didn't make but should have).
    

    more info...
    well she marked the cats for me and she told me she wanted the female
    for breeding purposes(the smaller one). i wrote on the check which
    cats they were 1 male choc. point 1 female choc. point large one.
    
    since the little one seems to have developed crossed eyes,the breeder
    has changed her mind about selling the large one to me,and told
    me that i would have to take the small one with the eye problem.
    
    i dont care about having a "show quality cat",all i was looking
    for was a nice looking housepet with a possiblity of breeding
    for housepets only.
    
    she did not at anytime say that she could switch kitten on me.
    she informed me that she had the right to after she talked to me
    about the smaller one having crossed eyes.
    
    i dont even really care about the eyes so much as to the fact that
    i feel that she has not been above board with me.
    if she had called me right off the bat it would have been a whole
    different ball game.
    i just feel i cant trust this lady and i now question the quality
    of her cats.
    
    kelly
    siamese female kitten 

    Well, you have to decide what you want to do.  It sounds like you
    have grounds to get your money back if you want it.  (What happened
    to the male cat?)  Perhaps a breeder could discuss the advisability
    of breeding "for housepets only".
    
    Have you ever had a cat before?

    This is probably not germaine to the subject but it is something
    that have always wondered about. Cross-eyed humans can have surgery
    to correct this problem; can they do the same to cats?
    
    Deb

    re.5 yes i have had two house cats before,siamese and balinese
    i was going to breed Brandy( the balinese) and just for the heck
    of it i had her tested  for feline leukemia  and she tested positive.
    the breeder i got her from assured me at the time i bought her that
    she was negative...
    i know me,i will take the cats and love them to pieces,crossed eyes
    or not,i just basically want to know do i have a leg to stand on
    and fight for the cat i wanted.
    
    re.6 well i asked her if they could put a patch or something,
    and she said no.
    crossed eyes are something that siamese were prone to a long time
    ago,to the best of my knowledge it has been mostly bred out.

re: all

In general, if I accept a deposit on a particular cat, I consider that cat
"sold".  Contrariwise, if someone expresses an interest in a cat, I won't
reserve it unless some money has changed hands.  So, to me, a deposit is 
how you'd reserve a particular cat.  The receipt you'd get from me would
spell out which cat to whatever precision necessary to identify it.  It
would also say when you agreed to take delivery, and that the balance was
due upon delivery.  If I wanted to change my mind, and didn't say so up
front (and most probably in writing), I'd *ask* you, nicely, if you'd mind,
and I'd live up to my agreement if you did.  I'd also tell you how long you 
had to change your mind, and I'd give you the deposit back if you did.  
(You can change your mind until it damages me.  Since I have a backlog of 
"orders", I've yet to be damaged.  This also tends to keep advertising
costs down (^; .) 

You'd also get a health guarantee, along the lines of a short-term one 
pending examination by your own vet, and then if your own vet doesn't find
anything, you're on your own.  You'd have to keep the cat away from other
cats until you'd've had it vetted(!). 


re: breeding for housepets

Although there might be some set of circumstances that would cause me to 
modify my stance, the only justification for breeding is to improve the 
breed.  Pets can be found at any animal shelter, so there's no reason to
breed your own.  When I sell a cat as a pet, the agreement you sign states
that you will neuter the cat at the appropriate age.  I might withold the
papers until I'd gotten proof, too.  (Selling a cat as a breeder is a whole
'nother kettle of fish.  And you may as well forget about getting a 
show-quality whole cat from me unless I know you *very* well, in which case
it's no longer a business deal.) 

Ray

    Thank you Ray - had I responded to "breeding housepets" I would
    not have been quite so diplomatic!  I guess folks just still
    don't realize how many millions of cats have to be killed
    each year because people "breed for the heck of it."  grrrrrrrr

    I'll agree with you about the millions of cats having to be killed
    each year because people "breed for the heck of it", BUT
    
    FLAME ON:
    
    Who ever said you need to improve the breeds!?  How many of you can
    actually say you don't want the money you make off of these kitties?
    Maybe every cat would have a home if some people weren't looking for
    the most beautiful PURE BRED they can find.
    
    Every kittie deserves a home!  Why do we have to breed the UPPER
    CLASS cats!  If you want to improve the breed then by all means
    do so, but don't go making money off of it!
    
    FLAME OFF.
    
    Kathy (Snuggles says I'm worth every bit as much as those upper
    class $350.00 cats.)

    re: .10 and making money off of breeding...
    
    Don't worry...I'm sure that I am not alone in LOSING MONEY
    from my cats.  This is MUCH more expensive than I ever expected!
    
    Sure, there may be breeders who don't take proper care of their
    animals, but for those of us who provide good food, clean and
    roomy environment, frequent veterinary care (including extraordinary
    care when warranted), etc., WE DON'T MAKE MONEY.
    
    I'd be quite happy to break even, thank you  :^{
    
    	Penelope 

                <<< YOGI::MISC$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FELINE.NOTE;2 >>>
                               -< Meower Power >-
================================================================================
Note 1109.13                   need some advice...                      13 of 13
SCOMAN::DAUGHAN "feel like jumpin the gun!"          26 lines  16-FEB-1988 13:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    well i respect your opinions as to breeding for "house pets".
    i dont agree with you in some respects.
    
    i happen to love siamese cats as do a lot of other people.
    i would be quite happy with a cat/kitten from an animal shelter
    also.the vague reference i made to breeding the female-i talked
    to the breeder about her seal-point stud. the breeder would want
    the pick of the litter.i seriously doubt that i would make any money
    and more then likely the  would go to people who could not afford to
    but a siamese.
    i am sorry i dont think there is anything wrong with breeding for
    housepets.they way you talk,you make me seem very irresponsible.
    i guess if i did breed her it would be for pets(one for me),and
    to improve to breed.it would be strictly for the love of cats and
    the breed.          
    i will not allow you people to make me feel guilty because i happen
    to love siamese cats and i am not racing down to the animal shelter.
    if i could not afford my cat of choice,i would go to the animal
    shelter.i will not be lumped in with those people who let their
    cats run willy-nilly not spayed or neutered.i am a responsible cat/pet
    owner.
    oh,btw- i used to work fot the animal rescue league and it is not
    only the "mutts"that are abandoned.seems people like to buy "purebreds"
    and then not take care of them and when the pooor animals finally
    get distemper or something else they abandon them...
    

    re: -1
    
    I'm with you!  I love Siamese cats.  My first kitty was a Siamese
    and my little girl now is a Siamese.  I sincerely doubt I'd have
    anything else.  Loyalty to a breed is certainly no crime.  And as
    far as breeding for housepets is concerned, why not!  There are
    those of us who love a breed, but don't love the exhorbitant price
    tag that comes along with a purebred showcat.  I don't plan on showing
    Ninny or even breeding her, but I wanted a true Siamese and not
    a Siamese/something mix because I like the traits of the cat.  I
    paid a lot more for her than I wanted or could really afford at
    the time, because I wanted a Siamese and couldn't find affordable
    kittens.
    
    I also believe you breeders provide a service and probably don't
    make back what you put in in terms of time, love, and care for these
    cats.  What can I tell you?  For me, a cat over $125.00 is too
    expensive for my purse. 
    
    Why did I go for a private sale instead of a shelter?  Mostly because
    of worry about FELV and ear mites and physical/mental abuse problems
    sometimes associated with shelter cats (not all cats, and not all
    the time) and my own fears about not being able to give them as much
    love, time and extra care that they might need (that doesn't mean
    I don't go the whole 9 yards for my girl now, though).  So, a person 
    breeding for housepets, in my opinion, serves a real need.
    
    Mary-Michael and Niniane (the Siamese wonder-kitty housepet)

    I really have to reply to this!!!
    
    I happen to breed persians.  I breed because I want to improve the
    breed, and I love the cats.  It costs me a fortune every year to
    feed and care for my cats.  The money I get from selling kittens
    can't even come close to breaking even!!!  
    
    Then, I do a breeding and happen to get a litter with 3 pets and
    1 show quality kitten.  I end up selling my pets for for $50 or
    $75 or giving them away because there are so many people breeding
    "HOUSEPET PERSIANS" because they have a pretty cat!!!!!  or they
    happen to love cats, or love the breed, or whatever!!!
    
    If you really love the breed that much, why would you want to breed
    a speciman that was "pet quality"???  
    
    It's not fair that good breeders, breeders who are really working
    and spending lots of money to improve the breed, have to compete
    with people breeding pet quality cats only to produce more pet quality
    cats.  
    
    WHAT IS THE POINT?????   So you can give your friends free cats???
    How is this fair to the people who really work to improve the breed???
    
    I don't think there is one breeder who reads or writes here that
    makes money!!!!!  If there is, I want to know how they do it!!!
    
    It makes me so mad to hear people say that breeders are making all
    this money off their cats!!!!!   
    
    Sorry to flame, but this kind of thinking really gets  me!!!
    
    cin
    

    Let me re-phrase my last note.  I do think people can breed for
    house pets, but, I also agree that that is PART of the reason so
    many cats are killed each year in shelters.
    
    The other part is the fact that people look for a particular breed
    and feel they must get a purebred.  It is true that a few purebreds
    end up in shelters.  So how come you don't look there first?  If
    it's because of the emotional and physical condition of the cat
    then that's being prejudiced.  A new kitten could end up with some
    type of disease or have a bad disposition even though you spent
    a good deal of money on him.
    
    I don't see people in animal shelters putting a price tag on love
    and care of cats.  They do it for nothing.  If it costs so much,
    how come pet stores can charge $25.00 for a mixed breed cat?  What
    makes purebreds so expensive?  The only reason I see is that some
    people want purebreds and are willing to pay for them and the breeders
    (as well as pet stores) are making money from it.
    
    It's up to each individual where they get their kitty.  It just makes
    me mad that the BREEDERS feel they are the only ones JUSTIFIED to
    breed cats.  No one is MORE JUSTIFIED if millions of cats are still
    being killed because of breeding.
    
    Kathy

    Breeders also weed out the "pet quality" kittens and sell them as
    pets so they don't reproduce undesired traits.  i.e.  cross-eyed
    siamese!!!!!
    
    Only a few select kittens are kept or sold for breeding purposes.
    
    I breed my cats to produce show quality kittens that I or someone
    else will bring to a cat show for exhibition.  
    
    I would not consider breeding a cat only to produce PET kittens.
    Pet kittens just happen.  Not every cat that a breeder produces
    can be show quality.  
    
    Some people are always going to want a purebred cat.  Just like
    some people want purebred dogs.  They choose a purebred because
    of the look or temperament of the cat.  
    
    But, if everyone that bought a "pet quality" cat bred it, we'ld
    still have cross-eyed siamese with kinked tails, Persians with long
    noses and almond shaped eyes, deaf Turkish Angoras and the list
    goes on.  
    
    If a person really want to produce more of a certain breed, buy
    a breeder quality cat.  It's not fair to the breed to propogate
    poor qualities.  It has taken breeders too long to get rid of undesired
    traits.  
    
    For example....the author of .0 may end up taking a siamese with
    cross-eyes...a "pet quality" cat.  Is it really worth taking a chance
    on producing a litter of cross-eyeds...is it fair to the breed or
    the breeders that have worked so hard to nearly eliminate this trait??
    
    I am not saying that breeders should be the only ones to breed.
    What I am saying is that if your going to breed, do it responsibly,
    get a cat that is breeder quality...don't propogate undesired, and
    sometimes unhealthy traits.  
    
    The difference in price between pet and breeder quality isn't that
    great.  So, buy a breeder....according to what everybody thinks,
    you should more than make your money back on the first litter, right!!
    
    Please, think of the cats.
    
    cin
    

    re -1
    
    I suspect the reason pet stores can sell a mixed breed cat for
    $25 is because they usually get these cats free, from people
    walking in off the street, trying to get rid of cats/kittens.
    Their cost for purebreds is a far cry from $25.  The reason
    for this is because they have to pay for these cats and they
    are usually acquired from kitten mills.  There's a previous
    discussion of kitten/puppy mills in the conference and the
    so-called quality of animals acquired through pet stores, so
    I won't go into it here.
    
    We all know that there are breeders out there who are in it
    for what we would all agree are the 'wrong' reasons.  The
    only breeders I 'know' are the ones from this conference
    and I know they don't fall into this category. 
    
    
    I can understand your feelings that a moratorium of sorts
    on breeding might help the overpopulation problem, but I
    doubt if it really would.  To suggest that breeders are
    to blame (in part), in any way, for millions of cats and dogs being
    euthanized every year, is not only unfair, but simply 
    inaccurate.  The entire blame for the overpopulation problem
    lies in one place, with irresponsible ownership, those people
    who do not spay/neuter their pets.  
    
    Donna
    
    

    re: .16
    
    If you want to know what makes purebreds so expensive, try buying
    a show quality cat.  Try entering a few cat shows.  
    
    My male cat cost me upwards of $1500.00 and I got him cheap!!! 
    Most of my females cost me $500 and up.  
    Vet visits and FeLV checks every year range in the high hundreds
    if I'm lucky.  
    Showing costs an average of $50 per show.  You must show to receive
    a title for the cat.  
    
    I don't charge for love!!!  I don't even make any money at this!!!
    
    Most shelters request a donation to leave a cat, then request a
    donation to adopt a cat....Pet stores don't even have to do anything
    but keep them in a cage for a day or two and often get more money
    for mutts than I can get for pedigree persians. 
    
    You can't equate a breeder with either of these situations.  
                                                    

    re.15
    i did not know that there was a problem with people breeding for
    "house pets" meaning putting you out of business,or not being careful
    on how they do it.
    the thing is i dont feel that i am irresponsible. 
    i would sit down and think about it and examine all sides.
    i think the breeder was interested in the choc.pt - seal-point match
    because it would improve her line with her having pick of the litter.
    i also realize the expense that would come with kittens.
    
    i dont know why people abandon their pets.it makes me mad.being
    a pet owner whether it be purebred or not comes with responsibilties
    (sp?) to the pet. 
    
    well as it looks like it wont even go that far(the eyes),i'll most
    likely take and love the kitten to pieces,but i would not consider
    breeding her.
    all iknow is that i love siamese cats and i cant wait till next
    week when i pick them up.
    
    
    kelly

    Kelly,
    
    I am sorry if I incinuated(sp) that you were irresponsible.  I did
    not mean it to sound that way.
    
    This happens to be one of my "hot buttons", probably because I happen
    to breed persians.  Others who breed some of the more popular breeds
    like persians, siamese, and himalayans I'm sure also feel the effect
    of "Pet" breeders.  
    
    Sorry...
    cin
    

    eeeks!
    i didnt get my note in fast enough
    i though i was going to be .17
    i would not consider breeding her.
    
    but somehting someone said has got me to thinking about why the
    switch in cats.
    i know she thought the little one was going to be breeder quality,but
    i think(in fact i know now) she thought they both were.i know that
    she wanted one of the females for that purpose and she thought the
    littler one was the best one to keep at the time.

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch...I think your breeder is a real winner...
    I can imagine how you felt when she pulled the old switch-ero on
    you!  But, I had a cross-eyed seal point Siamese 'foster cat' when
    I lived in Colorado.  We used to play a game called 'look me in
    the eye'.  I'd stare at him and tilt my head and he would do the
    same, all in an effort to keep looking forward!  The vet said his
    vision was fine, but it did make for hours of laughs.  I still smile
    when I think of those pointy ears, that long nose, and those big
    blue eyes staring away...
    
    Mary

    RE: .17 
    
    This kind of thinking can be attributed to the Majority of Breeders
    that are selling their "pet quality" cats for double what you are
    selling yours for Cin.  I'm happy to see that there are honorable
    Breeders out there.  But, if you look in the papers, I have yet
    to see a "pet quality" cat for under $100.00.  So, my comments are
    directed at them.
    
    Re: .18
    
    I agree that the biggest reason cats are dying is because of
    irresponsible owners not having there cat spayed/neutered.  I also
    feel, though, that some of the people in this conference who want
    to let their cat have a litter so long as it is planned for and they
    are able to find loving and permanent homes for them then they should
    not have the breeders coming down on them for it. 
    
    I don't feel, whoever, that people who are breeding their "pet quality"
    purebreds should be trying to make money off of the litter.
    
    As I said before, since cats are still dying, the only people we
    should be upset with (since you can't stop people from breeding
    or wanting to have a controlled litter) are the ones that let their cat
    out side without the thought of spaying/neutering them. 
    
    I'm just upset with the fact that I've seen people in this conference 
    who have planned a litter and have been put down by the breeders.
    I just don't feel the breeders are any more JUSTIFIED in breeding
    there cats if both sides are in control of the litter.
    
    Kathy (Sorry if I made anyone angry) :-)
    
    

    re 24
    the really funny thing is i do tend to agree with Cin (the breeders)
    to a certain degree.if and when  i do decide to breed it would be
    for pets or maybe for a breeder(something cin said got me to thinking
    about something). i would not breed the cat that has crossed-eyes.
    i mean that i would only do it for the love of siamese and to improve
    the breed.the breeders do spend an awful lot of money at times.
    at the time i was going to breed my balinese,there were no balinese
    around here(not that i could find) i had to go to northern maine
    to find one. the breeder i got the bali  from had to go to colarado
    and to canada.
    
    i also agree with re.24
    that there is nothing wrong with people planning on having a litter
    of housepets as long as they are responsible for them.
    the most i could ask for in my case(money wise) is the cost of
    the shots etc... 
    
    kelly

    
    I have sat here are read with interest about what has been going
    on.  I elected to have my siamese bred.  My husband and I wanted
    another siamese - specifically one of Selina's.  
    
    To call me "irresponsible" because I wanted Selina bred, is
    crazy.  We thought this out and consulted with our vet.
    
    As a matter of fact, THEY were the ones that first suggested it!
    AND they were the ones that matched us up with a perfect "papered!
    siamese.   What does a piece of paper make?  You wouldn't love the pet 
    any less because isn't registered. Do the cats themselves know if
    they have papers or not?  Do they care? 
                                           
    
    My dad purchased Selina for me.  We found her through the ads.
    There was no way I could afford a high-priced cat. And I wouldn't
    even consider it! 
    
    I agree with .10 and everything that she has said. It just
    amazes me that the breeders think that they can decide what people
    can and can not do. What makes them GOD?
                    
    I know that this will flame the breeders that read this note.  It
    just burns me, though, that the breeder put down the people that
    are making a responsible call in choosing to breed their pets.
    
    This is my opinion, and my opinion only.
               
    So after all this, we bred Selina in January. This past Monday
    our vet confirmed that she is having a litter of 3, possibly 4.
    And she is due around March 26.
    
    We are excited and thrilled! 
                                 
    S

    Well, if Selina has 3 or 4, and you keep 1, what happens to the
    other 2 or 3?  They go to homes who would have taken in a cat from
    a shelter perhaps.  So, there are 2 or 3 cats who will be euthanised
    because Selina was bred.  I think that's what people are trying
    to point out.  Whereas with breeders, pet quality kittens are an
    unavailable side effect of breeding show cats.  I doubt that $100
    covers the cost of medical care, food, etc. for a pet quality cat
    from a breeder;  just think of how much shots alone cost, esp. FeLV.
    

    Karen,
    
    Selina's kitten are all accounted for.  And these WILL NOT go
    to the animal shelters anyways.  The reason for this is that
    they don't trust the shelter for their cleaniness, they way
    they are treated, and the cat's disposition.
    
    I already found owners for the litter BEFORE she was bred.  If
    anyone of the people decide that they don't want a kitty, the
    better for me.  We'll keep them! My husband and I don't have
    any problems with that.
    
    S
    

Just a few words about "improving the breed":

What one person considers "improving the breed" can be totally
different from what another person considers "improving the breed".
Some of the physical characteristics that are right for a Persian would
be totally wrong for a Siamese. Some of the physical characteristics
that are right for a Scottish Fold would be totally wrong for an
Egyptian Mau. 

Standards change over the course of time. What is considered show 
quality for some breeds today, would have been considered pet quality 
for those breeds ten years ago.

Some breeds of cats are bred for such extremes in physical
conformation that some of the kittens produced have health problems
that are directly related to that physical extreme. This is
considered, by some, as an unavoidable result of trying to "improve
the breed". 

Since different breeds have different standards, and these standards
can change over the course of time, and some of these standards can
actually be detrimental to the general health of the cat, "improving
the breed" becomes much more of a variable. Taking that into
consideration, breeding a nonpurebred (or pet quality purebred) cat
that is healthy/friendly/sweet/pretty/intelligent can be justified as
"improving the breed" just as much as breeding a show quality
purebred can. Also, breeding a pet quality purebred that is less
extreme than the current standard, but less prone to breed-specific
problems, can also be justified as "improving the breed", even though
it is contrary to current standards for that breed. 

I don't think that the "improving the breed" argument should be used 
regarding who should and who should not breed their cats. There are 
too many variables to make any sort of statement that says only breeding 
certain cats constitutes "improving the breed".

Marleen_who_hates_confrontation_but_had_to_say_it-anyway
and Sly, Adrienne, Paws, Springer, and Midway

    re:1109.27
    
    Good.  I like this discussion.
    
    What I hear being said is--
    
    If a person doesn't buy a cat from a breeder, that that person is
    required to get a cat from a shelter to be a "good" person.  (Even
    though the person getting the cat likes to know the cat's background,
    who its parents are, how it was cared for from the beginning.)
    
    The average person like myself has no alternatives.  If my cat has
    kittens (because I choose) then *** I *** am causing other cats to die.
    ME!  I am therefore a murderer of cats!  Not some breeder who is
    producing cats for show and ends up producing a litter of pet quality
    cats.  
    
    From what I am reading here, "breeders" must be exempt from this murder
    routine.  
    
    So, what I need to do to be a good person, is buy a breeder quality
    cat (with papers of course), breed my cat, produce a litter of pet
    quality kittens.  Then I can be a good person too.  
    
    And does this mean that 3 or 4 kittens at some shelter somewhere won't
    die because I produced another litter of pet quality kittens from
    my breeder quality female (as opposed to my pet quality female).
      
    
    P.S. This shouldn't be a breeder vs average_joe_cat_lover issue.  WE
    ARE ATTACKING OTHER CAT LOVERS here, folks.  Instead of attacking each
    other, how about it each of us spends the amount of time we have been
    using to flame at each other to get out and campaign for people to take
    their pets to the local spay clinic (maybe even offering to transport
    the animal ourselves?)
    
    Mary JO
     
    

re: all of the previous

Good heavens!  I learned once that the subjects to avoid with people
were sex, politics, and religion....now I know the real subjects to
avoid are sex, declawing, and breeding your cats!

We know (or I hope we all know) there are too many kittens being born
in the world for the number of homes available.  Period.  Whatever
the reason a litter of kittens are brought into the world, I think it
is safe to say the human responsible for the litter (when there is
a human involved) is responsible for getting the kittens placed in
RELIABLE homes AND IN GETTING THE KITTENS SPAYED OR NEUTERED....
unless the kittens are REALLY good examples of the breed.
That way, we know the kittens won't have more kittens that end up
killed in a shelter somewhere....If you really want to breed a litter,
do so, but please remember that others might not be as responsible
as you are and consider how many kittens come into the world from
one untended, unneutered cat...

Finding homes for your litter is not the real issue here...making
sure that the kittens from your litter don't go out and create
hundreds more cats that end up in shelters is the real concern.
If you aren't willing to take the responsibility for making sure
this doesn't happen, PLEASE don't breed your cat...

Please notice, this is a plea, not a demand..

    First of all, there is a way to know if you are going to improve
    the breed....READ THE STANDARD.  All registering associations
    publish written standards for each breed.
    
    Improving the breed isn't left to someone's whim of what they think
    the breed should look like.  It's decided by a committee who writes
    the standard for the breed, usually the breed club.  In order to
    be a member of a breed club you have to meet certain criteria. 
    The breed standards are changed and updated as the breeds develop.
    
    Pet quality kittens/cats are sold at a reduced price from breeder
    and show quality kittens.  They are sold for less money because
    there are qualities about the cats that should not be reproduced.
    That doesn't mean that the particular cat isn't perfectly healthy
    and wouldn't produce loving kittens.  Of course, by the same token,
    not every show cat is going to produce just show cats.  What I am
    trying to say is that the pet price for kittens is usually very
    reduced from the breeder price because the quality is less.  
    
    I feel if your not aware of the standard for the breed, and your
    breeding the cat so it can have kittens, it's being irresponsible.
    How can you possibly know what you are trying to produce.  In fact,
    many of the traits that pet owners like in their pets, breeders
    are trying to eliminate in the breed.  For example, many people
    think that the older style persians with longer noses were much
    sweeter looking than the very snub nosed persians that we are producing
    now.  
    
    My question is this, when breeders have an excess of these pet quality
    kittens/cats already, why would a responsible person breed just
    for pets???  So they can give them away or sell them for nearly
    nothing to their friends....therefore making it even harder for
    breeders to sell their pets???  Because you have a friend who wants
    a kitten and doesn't want to pay for it???  
    
    And then we have to talk about value.  As we are talking/noting
    here, there are at least two people that have talked about breeding
    their siamese cats for pet kittens.  What do you think this is going
    to do to the market for pet quality siamese kittens???  Do you think
    that the value is going to go up???   Of course not!!!  So, anyone
    breeding siamese cats to improve the breed, but ending up with pets
    is going to have a more difficult time selling them for a reasonable
    amount.  
    
    I don't exactly like selling my persians for $75....which in no
    way allows me to even recoop my costs.  But I have no choice because
    there are so many pet persians being bred and the owners are either
    giving the kittens away or selling them for almost nothing.  But,
    that of course is because they started with a $100 pet and they
    found someone else with a $100 pet and decided to split the litter.
    When you start with animals you don't spend much money for, you
    don't have to sell your kittens for much to make money.
    
    In order to continue to improve all breeds, it is important that
    breeders be able to sell their pet quality kittens.  By increasing
    the number of pet quality kittens of a particular breed available,
    the value of the kittens becomes less.  Breeders cannot survive
    without the income they get by selling pet kittens.  
    
    This is the major reason I object to breeding pet quality cats of
    any breed.  It brings down the value of the entire breed as a whole.
    
    I am now beginning to breed Exotic Shorthairs, instead of Persians.
    Mostly because I can't sell my persian kittens for enough money
    to keep me in business.  Since Exotic Shorthairs are less available,
    there is a higher price tag, even for pet quality kittens.  If others
    follow along, soon the only people producing persians will be "pet"
    producers.  How does this help the breed???  
    
    I can't possibly understand why people object so much to buying
    a breeder quality cat if they want to produce kittens?????  Work
    with another breeder to be sure your responsibly trying to improve
    the breed.  Your Vet won't know that....all your vet knows is if
    your cat is healthy....not if your cat is a good speciman of the
    breed.  Most vets can't even tell you what breed a cat is when you
    get into some of the minority breeds.  In fact some vets don't even
    know the difference between a persian and a himalayan.  And they
    don't have to know those things....they just have to know how to
    keep our cats (whatever the breed) healthy.
    
    And, it is a well known fact, that a male or a female cat is much
    healthier if neutered and spayed before they have a chance to use
    their reproductive organs.  So, your not breeding for the health
    of your cat.  Of course, it's healthier to breed a cat than to let
    is stay "whole" and not breed it.  But that is not what were
    discussing.
    
    again...
    cin
    

    
    I must agree.  I don't want to get tangled up in an argument here, but
    after reading all of this it occurs to me that a lot of anger is being
    severely misdirected.  It isn't the resposible cat-lovers one should
    attack, it is the millions of irresponsible humans who don't have one
    iota of respect for animals of any kind.  THAT is the root of the
    problem.  If everyone acted as responsibly as the people who
    participate in this file, the problem would not exist. 
    
    Sometimes I think we have a tendency to split hairs about each others
    opinions, instead of appreciating and respecting each other's genuine
    love for animals.  THAT is a rare quality that deserves some recognition.
                                                           
    Whether a responsible individual decides not to breed a pet is not
    going to solve the cat-overpopulation and mistreatment problem.
    Making an effort to educate the masses and punish animal abusers
    would be a lot more effective. 
    
    Just wanted to remind us that we're on the same side! :-)
    
    Amy                                                      

    Re: .32

>    I am now beginning to breed Exotic Shorthairs, instead of Persians.
>    Mostly because I can't sell my persian kittens for enough money
>    to keep me in business.  Since Exotic Shorthairs are less available,
>    there is a higher price tag, even for pet quality kittens.  If others
>    follow along, soon the only people producing persians will be "pet"
>    producers.  How does this help the breed???  
    
    This is called the free market at work, and working quite well.
    The plentiful supply of Persians is an indication that the breed
    doesn't need the help very much, at least not at this time.  On
    the other hand, the Exotic Shorthair breeds do need the help.  By
    providing a higher price for these cats, the free market is rewarding
    you for putting your efforts where they are needed most.  And I
    congratulate you -- I think you are making a good decision in switching
    breeds.  If more people drop out of breeding Persians, eventually
    the supply will be cut back, and the price will go up enough to
    sustain those still in business.  This is the same situation as
    farmers who switch from growing oranges to growing kiwi fruit.
    
    As for long-nose, pet quality, versus snub-nose, show quality Persians,
    I interpret the situation this way:  If there really is more demand
    for the long-nose variety, then the standards committee made a mistake.
    They are, after all, only human, and they can (and do) make mistakes.
    If there is significant demand for both, then perhaps they should
    either ignore nose length or else split the breed into two varieties.
    (Actually, I suspect the demand for long-nosed Persians is just
    a blip -- large enough to justify a market, but not large enough
    to justify recognition at shows.)
    
       Gary

    re: .32
    
    I'm not joining the discussion about breeding or not breeding.  I
    have my own strong opinions, but enough has been said already!
    
    What I was wondering is what happens to all your Persian cats when
    you switch to breeding Exotic Shorthairs?  I'm sure you have become
    very attached to your breeder cats (or whatever they're called besides
    friends!).  Do you give them up when you start another breed?  Just
    curious because I could never give up one of my pets.

re: making money

This is to reiterate what Cindy and Penelope said.  I don't make money 
breeding cats.  For every dollar I made, I *lost* about $5 last year.  
(Well, maybe not *lost*, because I know whose pockets those dollars are in,
but they're not in mine.)  Please note that at $75 for a kitten, Cindy was 
losing money even if you consider only the expenses associated with the 
pregnancy and the kittens themselves, much less her other cattery expenses. 
I don't have to look at her books to know this.  I can look at mine.  (I 
suppose you could make money if you didn't bother with vet care, though.)

If you want to breed cats, go right ahead.  If you care about cats, do it 
right.  Learn about your breed.  Learn about cats.  Talk to others who're 
doing it.  Know what you're getting into.  Know what you want to
accomplish.  If you do it right, you've earned the right to call yourself a
"reputable breeder".  And yes, I firmly believe that the only people who
should be breeding cats are "reputable breeders".  I won't stop you.  I'll 
even help you.  It's your privilege to lose money if you want to.

The following statements are not necessarily pointed at anyone reading
this, but certainly are my opinion:  People whose only objective for
breeding is some pets are contemptible.  People whose objective is for 
*cheap* pets are beneath contempt.  Both of these objectives can be met 
without breeding.

re: pet shop prices

If you can find a tonk at a pet shop (unlikely, but it *has* happened),
they'd charge you about *twice* what I'd charge you, and you'd be lucky to
get a healthy animal, with the right papers, etc.  They'd also sell you a
decidedly pet quality animal as a breeder.  I wonder how the people who 
sell these cats to pet shops can live with themselves.

Ray

    Well put Ray, I couldn't agree more.  I don't feel I've
    seen any convincing argument put forth in this note for
    'breeding' household pets, purebred or not.   The fact that
    the litter is planned and homes are found seems irrelevant
    That's just my opinion, and please note, I am NOT a breeder.
    
    If people want to 'breed' (and I use that term lightly in
    this case) their siamese, calico, or whatever, househole pet,
    go ahead.  I've been a participant in this file for almost 3
    years now.  I've read every single note and reply.  Iknoww
    that breeders are not the only ones who have 'come down' on
    people for this.  Do what you want.  I just wouldn't expect
    much support for this viewpoint from this conference.  Such
    is life.
    
    Donna
    

reply 36
thank you for allowing me to make an individual choice.
maybe I will consult you before I have a child to make sure I don't have
any hidden agendas/or motives.
I am sorry that you find my motives *cheap* because I love Siamese
cats and want to share them with others that love them also.

reply others
am I politically incorrect this year because I am not racing to animal
shelters?
I seem to remember a time when birth control was politically correct.
don't bring unnecessary children into this world when there are so many
people going hungry.

I find that people making judgments about what should be an individual
choice,very close minded.
people are right to express concern about what care cats/kittens would
get,but not to tell me(and others)what I can or cant do.

I don't even feel bad that I chose to buy a cat instead of going to a shelter
for one.does getting a cat from a shelter make you feel good? does it make
you feel good when you announce that fact to other people so they all
think what a wonderful person you are? how is that for a judgment?
do you like me questioning your motives????

gee,I am glad that I am not politically correct this year,
I like being able to make a choice,it feels good.
I cant be all that bad,as I have actually worked in a shelter for a living
for next to nothing pay. hey,how about everyone quitting their jobs and
put their money where their mouth is and work at a shelter full-time...
come on you all,get up out of that easy chair.

    I suggest we close this note.  I don't see any more light being
    generated, just heat.
    

    Kelly,
    
    I just want to stress....I'm not against anyone buying a purebred
    cat.  What I don't think is right is to breed that cat only to produce
    more pet quality kittens to sell cheap to your friends.  
    
    If nobody bought purebred kittens, I'ld be even further in debt
    than I am now.
    
    As for changing breeds, because the Persian and Exotic Shorthair
    are "component" breeds, they can be bred together.  So, I will breed
    my persian females with an Exotic Shorthair male (Tiger) instead
    of a Persian male (Fire).  The result will be litters that will
    have some shorthaired Exotics and some longhaired Exotics.  The
    result of Exotic to Persian breedings usually produces better type
    than Exotic to Exotic breedings.  
    
    I think the hardest part about being a breeder is keeping the number
    of cats down.  As you bring in younger breeding stock, sometimes
    its necessary to find homes for some of the older ones.  I give
    my older cats away for free to people who are going to give them
    just the right homes.  It's not easy, but there are lots of things
    about being a breeder that aren't easy.  I have placed alot of my
    older cats with friends and family members so that I still get to
    visit with them.  
    
    purrs
    cin
    

Deb and I discussed this weekend whether to write-lock this note or not.
Personally, I'm finding some of the discussion interesting especially
in regards to some of the breeding issues.  However I'm finding the
flaming a bit too much, both as moderator and as a person who enjoys this
notesfile.  So, any more flames in here will result in this note being
write-locked for a cooling off period.

Pam  

    well i got my kittens last nite. are they beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    they are so tiny and fragile...
    
    i was up till 3:00 am trying to calm them down,they are so scared.
    i managed to get one of them to lick at the cat food.
    i guess the time to worry is when they stop howling...
    
    kelly
    with_puffy_eyes_due_to_lack_of_sleep_and_allergic_reaction_
    i wonder how long before my immunities build up again.

    p.s  my thanks also go to a certain feline noter who gave me a ride
    to get them last night.
    

    Have fun with your kitties!!
    Aren't Siamese wonderful?!! :-) :-) :-)
    
    Mary-Michael and Niniane (the Siamese wonder-kitty)

    well i finally got one of them to eat.
    because my house is all carpeted except for the kitchen,i elected
    to keep them there.
    i thought i plugged all the holes...
    i have all the cushions off the couch,the palce looks like a war
    zone.
    now all i have to do is find the other kittie...