Conference misery::feline_v1

    Ten years ago, I too was "given" a kitten that acted in very much
    the same manner...unfortunately for me, I kept the kitten which
    grew and grew - into a ROTTEN cat.  After Muffin was a year old,
    she refused to use the litter box anymore and used under beds, carpets
    - you name it as her litter box instead.  She also would NEVER let
    anyone pet her or touch her without lashing out and scratching or
    biting them. She would go up to the children while they were playing
    and scratch them wherever she could and would then run and hide.
    I had not had her fixed at this point because I was told that if
    I let her have a litter of kittens first, this would change her
    and calm her down....well, she had the kittens and then killed every
    one of them.  Her attitude toward the children became increasingly
    worse and it got to the point that I was afraid to let her in the
    house anymore for fear she would attack one of the kids!!
    
    People kept telling me to take her to the pound but I knew that
    NO ONE would have wanted her and didn't want having her put to sleep
    on my conscience.  This may sound cruel, but she just didn't come
    home one day and I was VERY happy.  It was also the reason I did
    not get another cat until November of last year.  
    
    It would have been much better all the way around if I had just
    taken the cat to the pound or found another home for it.  I was
    so afraid that I would end up with another cat like this that it
    took me all these years before I would even consider it (and I'm
    an animal lover from WAY back). 
    
    The cat I have now is a complete love, and the whole family looks
    forward to spending each day with her.  So COMPLETELY different
    than our first cat.  If only I had changed cats in the first place,
    I would not have wasted 10 years before finding out how much affection
    and love I was really missing out on.....
    
    I guess you know what my suggestion would be....
    
    Best of luck to your friend...Wendy
    

    on the subject of round-worms:
    
      whenever one of my cats presents with this problem, the first
    treatment dose is always at the vet under observation for at least
    a couple of hours to gauge reaction. the second is an office visit.
    I would hate to dose the cats myself.
    
    on the rest of the note:
    
      it certainly sounds like the kittens were neglected more than
    abused as they relate well to one another [but then neglect is a
    more benign form of abuse, if abuse can be called benign].  I would
    hesitate to jump to firm conclusions though.  If your friend craves
    affection and isn't getting it AND the cats are happy to be together,
    I don't think it's heartless to contemplate a home where the human
    wouldn't feel left out.  Still it would be a wrench.
    
      Annie

    I think that the cats may just need some more time and reassurance.
    In general, I think that "forcing" yourself on a cat by chasing
    it to pet it will only freak it out more.  Sweetie spent his first
    few days behind the refrigerator (actually all I saw were two
    eyes looking out at me from the drip tray) and he still hides when
    someone comes to the house.  Holly panics and goes to the bathroom
    when she goes to the vet.  I can't count the cats I've seen in abject
    terror at a vet's.  What I think is important is that they are acting
    scared and shy, _not_ vicious.  The scratches seemed to be purely
    defensive.
                                                   
    So, I would suggest your friend use a lot of patience, patting Roxie
    when she can, trying to get Rox used to  coming to her voluntarily
    (can she coax her with a treat?).  This will also help Trudy get more
    relaxed as she sees that Roxie is safe.  I would be sure that Trudy doesn't
    feel neglected, also.  It may take several months, but it is extremely
    rewarding to finally win a cat's confidence.  I suspect that they
    just weren't socialized at their previous home.
                                               
    

    I agree with Karen.  Just be very patient, and wait for the cats
    to come to you; chasing them to pet them will only make them worse.
    When Roxie does come to you, if you make a terrific fuss of her,
    and feed her special treats, perhaps Trudy will begin to think she's
    missing something, and join in.
    
    Hector was a stray cat - he came from an organisation called Petwatch.
    When I first got him he was about a year old, and, all though he
    wasn't terrified of people, he was not "socialised" at all.  He
    used to sit very quietly in a corner, and hope no one would notice
    he was there.  He was not used to regular meals, and would go
    completely mad at feeding time, leaping up and scratching to knock
    the bowl out of my hand.  In addition to this, he was not house
    trained, and his digestive system was quite indescribable!
    
    It took him about two months to settle down into a lovely, good
    tempered, healthy, placid cat; Hector Purring Boots, as he is now
    known.  In fact, he is now the calmest of all my cats.  The only
    hangover from his early life, at least I think it is, is that he
    will never sit on our armchairs, or the settee.  I think someone
    at some time must have stopped him doing this; both the other cats
    do it all the time.
    
    As far as vets go; I have to close all the dooors and windows before
    I can even get the cat basket out of the cupboard.  Otherwise, the
    cats vanish as if by magic!  And Oliver hides behind the settee,
    which necessitates taking the whole sitting room apart to get him
    out!
    
    
    As far as ve

I can definitely understand the need to have affectionate animals and how it is 
a disappointment when a pet isn't as affectionate as one would like; however, 
dealing positively with the situation is one of the responsibilities of 
"owning" a pet.  Are they vicious or frightened?  It can be very difficult to 
tell.

We took in 2 stray kittens last August.  Actually, we had to coax them inside 
over a period of 2 weeks.  They freaked out being "locked" in the house and 
would only let us near them around feeding time.  

Although we could pat them on occasion and play with them from a distance 
(kittens are kittens!), it took several weeks before they calmed down enough to 
let as touch them for any length of time.  We just kept pouring on the love 
and re-assuring them.  

Still, we were not able to be close to them for any length of time.  Many times
we wished we never got ourselves involved with wild kittens.  They were cute to
watch but didn't give us any of the affection we wanted. 

The largest behavior changes didn't come until after several months.  Bailey 
became the more friendly of the 2 and started to allow us to pick her up often.
Sambucca was the type that would always run away.  She'd have to come to you 
(very rare) and even then was shy.

Watching them become more tame as each day passed gave us feelings of 
well-being and accomplishment (hearing them purr for the first time, jump on 
the bed for the first time, etc.).

Bailey was placed in a great home (a fellow DECie) in January.  We hear that 
she is doing great.

Although Sambucca is schitzo (she demands to be loved each morning, yet later 
in the day will not let you near her), she's getting better, but *very* slowly.

The point:  We didn't think that these kittens would ever adjust to an indoor 
life and be affectionate.  Thankfully, we were proved wrong.

If the kittens are affectionate with each other, there is hope.  Never chase 
after them!  This makes it worse.  Move slow and steady, constantly re-assuring 
them that you mean no harm.  Try a little more each day.  If they want to be
alone, let them be and try again later.  *You've* got to convince them that you
are not a threat. 

    I went thru a similar thing with Chauncey, who was not socialized
    with humans when I got him.  He would run and hide everytime he
    saw me, and on those rare occasions when I could grab him, I would
    pet him and try to love him, but there was always some type of medicine
    I had to give him, so he didn't exactly enjoy being around me. 
    He took to Honey, my other cat, right away and got all the love
    and affection he needed from him.  Like .7, I would lie on the floor
    and let him explore me, and sometimes I would 'snag' him and do
    nothing but pet and kiss him.  Now, a year or so later, he occasionally
    lets me pick him up, but he much prefers to approach me when he
    wants to be loved.
    
    I think these girls need lots of time, and perhaps most of all,
    alot of patience.  Maybe Trudy will see Roxie enjoying her human
    and will come around.  I know of two feral kittens that were "captured"
    and domesticated, and although it took a while, they really like
    their new parents and enjoy the affection.
    
    I dunno what I'd do, except give it more time...if we only knew
    what really goes on in those tiny brains..
    
    Mary

	Let me concur with those who are saying that these kitties need
    	some time and patience.  I seriously doubt that they're vicious;
    	I think they're just very scared, not used to human contact,
    	and need space to adjust to their new home at their own pace.
    
    	One of my cats, Bill, is a stray that I took in.  He was terrified
    	of people when he first started coming around, and I had to
    	sit on the ground and talk quietly so that I could touch him.
    	Once I started feeding him, he turned into a real pal and came
    	around regularly twice a day for meals.  After a month, I
    	decided to adopt him.
    
    	He was very timid and terrified of my husband, although he got
    	along fine with my other two cats.  Slowly he began to warm
    	up to my husband as well, and today (two years later) he's a
    	super affectionate cat who can't get enough of sitting in our
    	laps, being petted, and getting the other cats to clean his
    	fur!
    
    	He is, however, still terrified of strangers.  Whenever we have
    	guests, he hides under our bed or in a closet.  He will not
    	come out until the guests leave or unless they're very quiet.
	If people try and pull him out, it only drives him further
    	into hiding.  He can't be forced to be friendly; he lets people
    	pet him when he feels safe.
    
    	So, I urge your friend to have a lot of patience and not force
    	herself on the cats.  These girls need a loving home!  Lying on 
    	the floor and offering them some treats or a catnip toy should
    	catch their interest.  (People look a lot less threatening when 
    	they're at ground-level, not towering above.)  If their playtime
    	is at night, she might try making contact with them then.
    
    	Let us know how things work out.
    	

Thanks for all the advice so far.  It's good to hear that many of you have
been in similar circumstances where things began to turn around.  

In regards to what's been said so far, I tried things like moving toys 
slowly in front of them (the same toys I'm told they play with all night).
The scary thing about these cats, and perhaps it's something I didn't make
very clear in the base note, is that there would be no reaction whatsoever.
They wouldn't look at moving toys or string;  you'd put cat treats in front
of them and there would be no reaction.  I really meant it when I called
them catatonic - they have a hollow look that's quite distressing.  They
really do look and react as if they had been abused.  There's a passivity
and blankness about them that really tears at your heart.  I know they're
not vicious - just absolutely terrified into a stupor.  And that's why
I wondered if it would be possible at all to reach them.

We also never moved quickly around them and always approached them at their
level - we had too, they were almost always under the bed.  I'd get into
all sorts of contortions on the ground and move very slowly towards them
with my fingers leading, giving them a chance to sniff and get acclimated
first.  There was no intention of forcing ourselves on them, but we knew
they had to get used to us so we could get them to the vet, give them
medicine, etc.

At any rate, there's real progress to report.  My friend Lois had another
friend over to help her get the roundworm medicine into Trudy and apparently
Trudy spent an hour lying on Lois' lap afterwards.  And last night Lois
called to say that Trudy was on her lap PURRING (!) and that Roxie was
curled up by her toes.  It took 20 minutes of petting before Trudy started
purring, but at least we know she is capable of reacting.  Lois had never
heard her make a sound prior to that.

So I think we now know that progress will be slow, but that there's light
at the end of the tunnel.

Pam

    Thanks for updating us on Roxie and Trudy and also telling more
    about the efforts you and your friend made to try and gain their
    trust.  It sounds like there's real hope for them.
    
    There's a real sense of accomplishment when you convince a
    frightened, unresponsive animal that you want to be its friend
    and see it start to respond.  Much more rewarding, in a way,
    than having a boisterous kitten that you suspect would have
    become anyone's buddy!
    
    Hope the results keep coming!

    RE: .10
    
    Thank goodness....
    
    I was reading each and every reply to make sure I didn't miss anything
    before I put my 2 cents in.  I am so glad I waited.  I wasn't going
    to `flame', just reiterate the fact of going VERY slow and easy
    and also to get down to their level.  I am very glad to hear that
    Trudy and Roxie are coming along fine.  A purring cat is such a
    wonderful sound.
    
    It took Starfire 6 months to let me hold her and for her to climb
    up on my lap.  I never abused her, she was just terrified and would
    always hiss and slash at me whenever I got near her.  I almost cried
    the night she first sat in my lap.
    
    Tell your friend good luck and enjoy her babies.  She deserves it
    now.
    
    Sandi (Lightning's & DejaVu's Mom)
    
    

    Re: .12
    
    Here's a time when I almost cried, too:  when I first got Sweetie,
    I couldn't throw out anything with food on it, not an empty can,
    not a margarine wrapper, without his immediately digging into the
    wastebasket after it and getting every last bit of food off of it.
    So everything had to go immediately into the trashcan outside instead
    of the one in the kitchen.  Then one day, after several months,
    I realized that I had been throwing things into the kitchen trashcan
    again, and he _wasn't_ digging them out.  Feeling safe and secure,
    my Sweetie.

Roxie and Trudy spent a long (5-day) weekend at my house a few weeks ago
while my friend took a mini-vacation.  I must say that I wasn't really
looking forward to having 2 cats live under my bed for 5 days.

There were a few skirmishes the first night between Roxie and my cats.
Trudy was acting so passive that both of my cats, on separate occassions,
went up to her and licked her and then rolled on their backs in front
of her (which, I believe, is a cat's way of saying "Look - I'm harmless;
you can trust me").

Trudy and Roxie really did spend the first 2 days under my bed, but they
also let me pet them while they were there and they purred.  But then
an amazing thing happened.  They both gathered up their courage and ventured
downstairs and decided they were sick of living under my bed.  They started
playing all over the house.  I woke up the next morning to the thundering
sound of 4 cats chasing each other all over the place.  Roxie would come
up to me to be petted.  If I approached Trudy very slowly, she would let
me pet her as well and she seemed to really enjoy it.  

By the end of 5 days, the cats were having so much fun and I was enjoying them
so much that I tried to talk my friend into letting them stay awhile longer.
She, of course, missed her cats and wanted them back.

At any rate, it's clear to me now that the love and attention my friend has
lavished on them the past 5 months has really paid off.  Roxie is a completely
normal cat and Trudy is a little gun-shy until she gets used to you, but then
she's a real love.  It's really wonderful to see these cats as they are now.

Pam