Conference misery::feline_v1

    Ah, you haven't discovered the _real_ joys of finicky until you
    have more than one cat who's finicky, and they like/dislike different
    things.  Thus, Karamaneh _loves_ Bonkers and Merlin can't stand
    them; Merlin _loves_ St. Louis cheesecake, and Karamaneh turns up
    her nose at it.  Merlin likes liver and chicken Friskies and Karamaneh
    would rather not touch it ....
    
    That'sd for starters.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    I alternate Corkie between dry Science Diet and Tender Vittles.
    She won't touch ANY of the canned stuff (thank heaven for miracles),
    but she'll be happy as a clam with her dry and then we'll go into
    a tiff and not want it.  She'll drag a towel or shirt or anything
    else I've left on the floor and cover her bowl up.  Then mom has
    to go to the store for some Tender Vittles.  Then for awhile she
    scarfs those up, until she gets bored with 'em and wants her Science
    Diet back.  I've finally been trained to keep them both around!
    
    Pat
    

    From the start I stated I WOULD NOT HAVE a picky cat, therefore
    there were never any options for Luther. He got what he got and
    I never made an issue about it. If he didn't eat it, it meant he
    went without til the next meal. He learned very quickly. Part
    of it I'm sure is that he is, plainly speaking, a pig. It's gotten
    worse since he had to move to the Science Diet foods, he doesn't
    get the dry food all day like he did before.

    RE: .0
    	Do not stop feeding your kitties wet(canned food). it has been
    found that a diet of strictly dry food for cats can cause urinary
    and intestinal problems. A long time ago we asked my uncle(head
    vet at the Philadelphia Zoo) about this and he said that cats should
    have a balanced mixture of wet and dry food.
    
    						Geoff

    re: 0.3
    
    It started out that if she didn't eat, then she had to wait till
    the next meal, however.....she'd go for days w/out eating (except
    for those spiders and beatles).  Her weight started fluxuating too
    much.....
           
    
    
    re: 0.4
    my vet told my the same thing (actually a few have) which is why
    I feed her canned food at different intervals during the day, and
    leave dried out all day.
    
    the reason I was given(well the one that sticks out in my mind),
    was Nippa is constantly cleaning herself, and her semi long
    (she is neither short haired or long, but somewhere in between)
    fur was getting caught in her throught (SP).  She had a terrible
    time w/ fur balls (and getting sick all over my mothers brand
    new carpets....).   Anyways, the vet said the canned had a large
    proportion of liquid, therefore keeping her throught (SP) moist
    and helped reduce these furballs.  Well she has not had many 
    fur balls lately, so it must be right    (correct me if I'm
    wrong).
    
    I just can't believe how she goes from one food to the next.....

    another reason to feed your kitty wet/canned food is that if kitties
    don't get real meat the will go blind after a period of time. We
    generally feed the kitties a can of wet food in the morning and
    evening(1 can / 3 cats) and have dry food out all day.
    
    						Geoff
    
    P.S. In another note in here about placement of kitties water. It
    works! We moved the water to the other side of the kitchen and they
    drink out of their bowl much more often now.
    

    
    Is this true about cats actually going blind if they don't get canned
    food?  Please provide more factual information because I know many
    people feed only dry to save money and mess...
    
    My cats do get canned, but my sister-in-law does only feed her cat
    dry food.  If this is a serious possibility, I will certainly tell
    her to change her cat's diet... On the other hand, I don't want
    to give her false information and have her worry needlessly, or
    have her make the extra investment unnecessarily.
    
    I personally can see how having both could provide a more well-balanced
    and healthier diet, but if the lack of canned food actually promotes
    severe health problems, could you please provide more complete
    information?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Amy
    
       

I have never heard that a cat will go blind!  But then again, I'm no expert.

However, what dry food may cause is urinary tract problems, especially in older
cats and neutered males.   This has been talked about before, but dry food
should be selected that contains very low ash content.  The premium foods
(Iams, Science Diet, et al) and some store brands are very low in ash. 

    The statement that cats will go bline without meat was a trivia
    question I read about three years ago in some magazine. I'm not
    sure which but I think it was Nature. the question as I recall it
    was: "Without meat felines will A) Die
    				    B) Go Blind
    				    C) Throw up(or something absurd
    like that)
    
    	The correct answer was B. It could be, though, that the dry
    food does contain actual meat. However I'm not sure about that.
    
    						Geoff

    There are certain essential amino acids,minerals,vitamins
    that cats need as they cannot manufacture them. Meat is the
    most complete food for cats. But by meat is meant freshly-killed
    prey.
    All of the major cat food companies ensure that their products provide
    complete nutriments for cats. A food marked complete is just that.
    Kitten foods contain more because of growth requirements for kittens
    are differant than those for adult cats.
    While dry foods have been implemented in FUS there are also other
    factors some of which are unknown.
    
    IN short chose a complete balencced food *it will be labeled as
    such and you are ok. Canned or dry plus lots of fresh water is all
    the cat needs.
    
    Actually I think that more research has been done on cat diets
    than human diets.
    

    Neither one of my cats eats canned cat food (unless John, the owner
    of finicky-feline Nugget, brings over one once in a while which Nuggest
    decided he wouldn't eat), both are close to ten years old now, and
    they are both fine.  Someone is trying to scare us.  My father-in-law,
    who is a vegetarian, used to feed his calico vegetarian cat food
    (I think he doesn't anymore because the cat wasn't crazy about it
    - my feline-vacuum-cleaners devoured what was left of one bag of
    the stuff), and she is also fine.                  

    I believe (I may be wrong) that the diet deficiency which causes
    blindness in cats is a taurine deficiency.  I have heard of two
    types of diets which can cause this:  pure fish (for example, feeding
    the cat "people" tuna exclusively), and vegetarian diets.  I have
    heard several first hand reports from vegetarians of the latter
    problem.  I have also heard that there is a manufactured vegetarian
    cat food -- whether that has had taurine added to it in a sufficient
    amount, I don't know.  I find it hard to believe that a dry food
    labelled "100% nutritionally complete" from a reputable manufacturer
    is going to cause blindness.  

    
    I once had a cat that had kidney problems.  The Vet put her on a
    meat free/fish free diet.  The product was called "KD" the same
    folks that make "CD" - Hills I believe.  He said it was the same
    as a vegetarian diet plus supliments.  The fact of the matter is 
    that you can get from a vegetarian diet (human or cat) exactly 
    what you get from a carnavor diet if you work at it hard enough.  
    I'm living proof of that!
    
    Marion

    Re: .12 and .13
    I don't want to beat this topic into the ground, but as a vegetarian
    myself I do want to reitrate my warning that cats fed veggie diets
    that you cook up yourself will almost certainly have vision problems.
     Anyone contemplating this should run the diet past their vet. Cats
    do not have the same ability that humans do to use all the components
    of a veggie diet to get the nutrients they need.

    
    I tend to agree with strongly with .14.  To expound a bit...Cats
    (carnivores) have different digestive tracts than we humans do...  A
    friend told me (who is a vegeterian) that one of the theories as to why
    it is unhealthy for humans to eat meat is that humans have a very long
    digestive tract... the kind necessary for extracting all the nutrients
    from plant matter, but totally unnecessary for digesting meat.  In
    fact, the longer meats stay in our digestive tract, the more likely
    they are to, for lack of better terms, create problems, and I won't go
    into details about the advantages of vegetarianism for humans. 
    
    Now, on the other hand, carnivores like cats, have short digestive
    tracts, and digest meat very well, but do not digest vegetable matter
    as well as we humans do, so from that point of view, I can see how
    vegetarian cats MIGHT have problems.  But, other than hearsay, I
    have no scientific evidence to back this up.  
    
    I also agree with other replies, that it would be hard to believe that a
    reputable dry cat food manufacturer would not be aware of the
    components and nutrients cats need so as to make healthy food.
    
    I'm going home and checking the ingredients of my kitties dry food
    right this minute! :-)
    
    
    Amy.
        

The key here is that in the relatively recent past, it was discovered that 
a taurine deficiency can cause blindness in cats.  As soon as this was 
uncovered, and even before it was commonly accepted as proven, reputable 
manufacturers of cat food made sure their recipes contained enough taurine. 
So, this particular problem was "fixed" long ago.

Problems like this are why you should be using a good commercial cat food, 
rather than making up your own (unless you *really* know what you're 
doing).

Ray

    Just to add to the confusion, I believe the recent discovery about
    taurine mentioned in .16 had to do not with blindness but some sort
    of heart problem.  The connection between some kind of diet deficiency
    and blindness has been known for awhile.

Re: < Note 940.15 by BAGELS::ALLEN >
    
    I tend to agree with strongly with .14.  To expound a bit...Cats
    (carnivores) have different digestive tracts than we humans do...  A
    friend told me (who is a vegeterian) that one of the theories as to why
    it is unhealthy for humans to eat meat is that humans have a very long
    digestive tract... the kind necessary for extracting all the nutrients
    from plant matter, but totally unnecessary for digesting meat.  In
    fact, the longer meats stay in our digestive tract, the more likely
    they are to, for lack of better terms, create problems, and I won't go
    into details about the advantages of vegetarianism for humans. 
    
Not to get off on even a further tangent, but ...

I don't disagree with your short/long digestive tract discussion (mainly 
because I'm not a biologist), but this isn't the whole story.

If I recall from what little biology I can remember, certain enzymes and 
bacteria in the tract are what break down food.  Humans are far from being 
herbivores.  In fact, we are as much carnivorous by nature (this has nothing 
to do with the choice to be a vegetarian).

We in fact lack a certain enzyme that fully digests vegetables.  I don't want 
to get disgusting so I won't elaborate further.   I'm sure there is more than
one enzyme that does this and felines may lack all of them ... I don't know.
Rabbits, for example, are true herbivores and extract all they need from their
vegetable diet.  Humans need both meat and plants to obtain the needed
essentials in our diets, unless we take vitamin/mineral supplements. 

Every animal has different dietary requirements, as shown by the Taurine need 
in felines.

    Let's not get into that old one.  Anybody who wishes to fall down
    that old rat hole can tune in to BETHE::SOAPBOX where this topic
    has been beaten to death many times, only to rise from the dead
    every year when Digital gives out turkeys.
    
    Marion

Re: < Note 940.19 by BUSY::MAXMIS11 >

>    Let's not get into that old one.  Anybody who wishes to fall down
>    that old rat hole can tune in to BETHE::SOAPBOX where this topic
>    has been beaten to death many times, only to rise from the dead
>    every year when Digital gives out turkeys.
    
I do not want this to explode but ...

*If* you read .18 in full (which by your response indicates that you did 
not) you would know that it discussed the possible biological reasons for 
digestion in humans and felines which, by some strange reason, I thought may be 
of interests to others in the conference.

It does *not* discuss the personal and very emotional issue of what one should 
eat.  I, for one, don't care either way what someone else eats.

If you were refering to other replys which hinted at this, then please 
make specific references to these replies *only*, to avoid possible confusion.

I don't appreciate unnecessary stabs.

Thank you.

    
    I, for one, was really quite interested in the discussion we were
    having, from the standpoint that I think it's important to understand
    why the dietary requirements of our pets differ from ours, and how
    they differ.  I didn't think we were getting at all involved in
    the issue of whether it was better for humans to be vegitarians
    or not.
    
    I was trying to add information I had heard about differences between
    human and feline digestive tracts, Matt was merely clarifying the
    information I had, and correcting misinformation, and I don't see the
    problem with that, after all, that's what this file is for, no? :-) 
    
    I DO think it is important to understand these issues because just
    as it is important for us to ensure that our own diets are healthy,
    it is important to ensure our kitties eat healthy too!  A point
    to be made is that what is good for humans is not necessarily good
    for cats... That's what I was trying to get at anyway.  
    
    Even though our kitties act like humans sometimes, doesn't mean
    they can eat like humans!  :-)                                     
    
    Amy. 
             
    P.S. I must admit, I was also a bit put off at being accused of going
    down a rat hole...  references to vegetarianism in humans were made
    merely as an aside, I certainly wasn't promoting either practice,
    merely trying to elicit more information on the importance of meat in
    feline diets. 
                                  
    
                 

    
    
    RE:  940.20 - Mat
         940.21 - Amy        
         (specific enough for you???)
    
    
    Well EXCUUUUUUUUUUUUUSE MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
    
    Some of my best friends are rat holes!
    
    Marion 
    
    (cheesh!)
                                          

    So much for this discussion.

Re: < Note 940.23 by BAGELS::ALLEN >

>    So much for this discussion.

Ditto.   Another useful and intereting discussion discouraged by a self-serving 
individual who can't leave well enough alone.


Re: Marion

I would think an apology (or better yet NO response) would have been more 
appropriate.  Since I won't sink into the abyss that you seem to love so much 
and wish to continue, this is enough said. 

PLEASE, MODERATOR:  Make this topic NOWRITE so those of us who like to make 
*constructive* additions to this conference won't have to see further 
destructive thoughts.

    Well, to be quite honest, when I saw the discussion about vegetarianism
    begin, *I* was concerned that someone would bring up the annual
    turkey discussion, so to be quite honest, I was glad that someone
    else feared this note was going to do down that rathole and said
    something about it.
    
    On the other hand, the discussion of why cats need meat is an important
    one, as is the discussion of the physiological differences between
    humans and cats.
    
    Let's try to remember each other's point of view, and try to keep our
    words and phrases uncharged. If you must flame at each other, please do
    so via mail. I'm leaving replies enabled to this note.
    
    Deb (who has lived through a decade of the DEC turkey debate and is
         sick of hearing it)  

    
    Thank you, Deb.  You seem to have read my reply in the spirit which
    it was written.
    
    Marion

    Hey folks,

    Just for the record, I certainly did not mean to "flame" at anyone... I
    apologize if anyone took my comments that way, I wanted to express,
    that I didn't think the tone of reply .19 was necessary.  Perhaps you
    are right, Karen, I should have done that via mail.  I had never seen
    or heard of a discussion on vegetarianism in humans.... and anyway,
    that wasn't what we wanted to talk about! :-) 

    Let me also clarify my reply .23, I guess I left out the :-), because I
    merely felt the entire thing had gotten a bit ridiculous and out of
    hand. 

    So, I just wanted to say, sorry, guys!  Can we return to our regularly
    scheduled program now? :-) :-) :-) 

    Amy.  :-)?  (sheepish grin) 
                                
    

Well, I wasn't going to reply again (sigh, this is getting ridiculous), but 
since everyone else seems to have done so I guess I can give my final thoughts 
also.

As with Amy, I was not trying to flame at anyone.  I do not believe in 
*unprovocted* flaming; however, like another noter has pointed out, if someone 
else opens "the can of worms" there is nothing wrong with expressing your shock 
and disappointment to the offender using the SAME medium, public or private.

I took .19 as an unconstructive flame.  It did not contain any "smiles", etc.
that would have indicated anything differently.  As such, I thought my reply 
was justified.  Even so, the reply was not at all a heavy flame.  I also stated 
that I did not want this to progress into a flame war.

When .22 was written I couldn't believe it.  It was nastier than the first 
comment.   You all know the rest.
    
Please, no more of this.  As far as flaming mail messages are concerned, count
me out.  I will not send or reply to such nonsense. 

Unfortunately, others wish to continue this garbage.

RE  .26 

Here are the references to vegetarian related notes you asked for.

                  NOTE                 NOTE                   NUMBER OF
CONFERENCE       NUMBER                TITLE                   REPLYS
===========================================================================
BETHE::SOAPBOX     77       ("soap" is currently down)           ???
                  485       VEGETARIANISM & ANIMAL RIGHTS  several hundred?
                  343       Reasons to be a Vegetarian     several hundred?
YOGI::SOAPBOX     223       Vegetarianism?                        29
HYDRA::HOLISTIC     5       Vegetarianism?                        37
                   73       What *is* a balanced veg. diet?       27
HUMAN::DIGITAL    237       Holiday Turkeys                       63


As you can see there are quite a few.  If you read them, you will see that
there are a great number of people here at Digital who are very knowledgable
when it comes to nutrition in general, and vegetarianism specificly.  You
will also find that there are some people who become *very* irate when you
suggest that human beings need to eat meat to sustain good health.  Anyone
bold enough to suggest that to be fact in BETHE::SOAPBOX should be prepared
for an onslaught of rather vial and insulting replys.  I have always been
very pleased to participate in FELINE because there has been a virtual lack
of that sort of behavure.  After reading Matt's note 940.18 ("Humans need
meat AND plants") it occurred to me that the stage was set for just that sort 
of thing here in FELINE.  Hopeing to avoid it, I posted a "rat hole alert".  
I took no odds with specific previous notes, because that is exactly what I 
was trying to avoid, so I made a general statement.  On the other hand, how-
ever, I did not mean to say, nor _did_ I say that any previous note was not 
worthwhile.  It was a "Rat hole alert", nothing more and nothing less.  In so 
far as my next reply ("excuse me") it was written in order to lighten things up.
I did not write it with smiley faces because I was not smiling when I wrote it.
I felt that I had been jumped on unduely.

So, it seems that in the act of trying to avoid unpleasentness, I have called
upon just what I wanted to avoid.  It just goes to show you that life is funny
and people are funny [and some are much funnier than others :^)].  Matt, your
insults have not upset me.  It seems to me that I, like you, have lost my 
temper over a misunderstanding more than a few times in my life.  It happens.  
Amy, how did you get in the middle of this thing, anyhow?  Perhaps you and I 
can go and start a new note conference - YOGI::SHEEP.

Marion  (a Vegan Vegetarian)

As far as I'm concerned, the only good cat is a dog, but how could a militant
vegetarian pass up a discussion like this? Don't worry, I'll do my best not to
turn this into a vegetarian rathole (which Marion obviously wished to avoid)
but there are some fallacies that need correction, and some interesting
questions to ask.  The easiest way to go about this is to address Matt
Goldman's points in .18:

    > If I recall from what little biology I can remember, certain enzymes
    and bacteria in the tract are what break down food.  Humans are far
    from being herbivores.  In fact, we are as much carnivorous by nature
    (this has nothing to do with the choice to be a vegetarian).  < 

Humans may be far from being herbivores, but they are even farther from
being carnivores.  We share the same (virtually identical) digestive tract
as our pongid cousin, the chimpanzee.  Chimps are basically frugivorous,
but supplement their diets with very small quantities of meat; primarily
that of grubs and insects.  Pongids (including humans) are perfectly configured
for gathering fruits and vegetables and easy-to-catch animal "finger foods"
(grubs) but we are configured for, and can thrive on, a vegetable diet.

True carnivores (such as cats) have claws and teeth configured for stabbing.
Humans lack claws and our "canine" teeth (called so because of their
*position,* not their function) are flat and do not extend beyond the common
line of the teeth.  Our saliva, like that of many herbivorous creatures,
contains *ptyalin,* a starch-digesting enzyme which is absent in the saliva of
carnivores.  And like other herbivores, our saliva and urine is alkaline (not so
with carnivores). 

Carnivores tear off flesh and swallow it in chunks, and their jaws move up and
down.  Human jaws are capable of grinding (necessary for nuts, hard fruits and
roots) for which we have flattened molars, and our incisors are perfectly
suited for shearing vegetable matter (imagine the tough time your cat would
have eating an apple). Because carnivores swallow bones, hides and hair, their
stomach acid is about 20 times stronger than ours.  And, as already pointed
out, our digestive tract is about 12 times longer.  Semi-digested meat in
the human gut carries bile acids that certain bacteria (such as clostridia)
convert to carcinogens (thus the importance of a diet high in fiber).
Carnivores, with their short, smooth digestive tracts, don't have this problem,
as any undigested meat is quickly eliminated.
 

    > We in fact lack a certain enzyme that fully digests vegetables.  I
    don't want to get disgusting so I won't elaborate further.   I'm sure
    there is more than one enzyme that does this and felines may lack all
    of them ... I don't know. < 


OK, *I'll* get disgusting.  Humans lack the ability to digest cellulose, but it
is undigested cellulose that helps to move waste products through the bowels.
Ruminants (such as cattle) have multiple stomachs which contain bacteria that
break cellulose down.  Lagomorphs (such as rabbits) do not have multiple
stomachs but have a very pronounced vermiform appendix, which aids (as I
recall) in cellulose breakdown.  Ruminants and lagomorphs need to break down
cellulose because they primarily eat vegetable products high in cellulose
(such as grass).  Fruits, to which pongids are best suited, are higher in
simple sugars, but lower in cellulose, so humans do not require the ability
to digest cellulose. 


    > Rabbits, for example, are true herbivores and extract all they need
    from their vegetable diet.  Humans need both meat and plants to obtain
    the needed essentials in our diets, unless we take vitamin/mineral
    supplements. < 

This is untrue; plants contain ALL of the essential amino acids required
by humans.  It is not necessary to combine proteins or take supplements to
achieve optimal nutrition.  Foods such as potatoes, mushrooms, yeast, lettuce,
asparagus, and spinach easily meet a person's amino acid requirement and
supply other needed nutrients such as vitamin C and fiber.  While meat also
contains all of the necessary amino acids, it contains no fiber and no vitamin
C.  It should not be surprising that populations subsisting on vegetarian
diets live significantly longer than populations subsisting on meat. 


    > Every animal has different dietary requirements, as shown by the
    Taurine need in felines. < 

Yes!  Which brings us back to cats.  Animal nutrition (like human sexual
preference) exists on a continuum.  Really, NO animal in the wild is totally
herbivorous or carnivorous.  Cattle are primarily suited for digesting
vegetables, but they eat *millions* of insects clinging to the grass.
When carnivores kill, they normally eat the stomach contents of their prey,
which contains large amounts of vegetation (and everyone has seen dogs and
cats eat grass at some time or other).  

Cats are constructed for a diet primarily of meat.  Some vegetables are
good for them but an all-vegetable diet is unnatural for them.  Cats do
indeed require taurine, which is derived from taurocholic acid and is found
in animal muscle tissue.  Cats deprived of this compound can go blind, but
dogs (due to their close evolutionary association with humans, I suspect)
do not require this substance as do cats.  This brings up an interesting
question: should persons who shun meat for ethical reasons keep carnivorous
pets?

I believe there is a totally-vegetarian cat food called "Vegicat" that includes
taurine synthesized from lentils, but I do not have more information about
this product onhand, as I am writing from my office.  There are also some
very good all-vegetable dogfoods on the market.

Hope this helps.

John M.

Animal Rights NOW!  [Just *had* to throw that in! :-) ]