Conference misery::feline_v1

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Note 632.0                 a reply to the notes editor                No replies
INK::GUINARD                                          8 lines  23-JUN-1987 15:26
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    Hiding notes are a breach of the 1st Ammendment to the Constitution
    of the United States of America! Who among would consider themselves
    so superior to others as to place themselves in a judgemental position
    in regards to anothers freedom of expression? Is it Communist in
    nature? I for one refuse to be connected with a notes file which
    is governed by a self rightious editor!
    

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Note 632.1                 a reply to the notes editor                    1 of 1
GLINKA::GREENE                                       11 lines  23-JUN-1987 16:38
                   -< Moderators, please moderate again??? >-
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    I object to .0 slipping an offensive comment at the end of an
    otherwise political comment.
    
    As for .0 saying
    	>>I for one refuse to be connected with a notes file which
    	>>is governed by a self rightious editor!
    
    	BYE BYE .0!!!
    
    I would support any political statements (Communist or otherwise),
    but not sadistic ones...

    Since this is practically the first time (that I recall) where active
    moderation was needed, I'd say it was all handled very - moderately!
    
    Without knowing the contents of the original note (which, from the
    title, should have been posted in COOKS anyway - sorry, couldn't
    resist!), I'd say that hiding a suspect note and communicating with
    the author is the most reasonable way to deal with notes that are,
    for any reason, inappropriate to a conference.
    
    If the note really was meant as a prank or as an inflammatory poke,
    it's best to ignore the noter as much as possible. If it wasn't,
    I would hope the noter would explain just what was meant and re-post
    the note; if it's a valid (and cat-related) point, even if unpleasant,
    then it deserves discussion here.
    
    Hoping we don't have to spend any more time here on non-cat stuff,

    -b

>    Hiding notes are a breach of the 1st Ammendment to the Constitution
>    of the United States of America!

This isn't a newspaper.  This computer is a Digital asset, and therefore 
its use is according to DEC policies and procedures, and not the 
Constitution.  If this computer were yours, you could make the rules.  It's 
not, so you can't.

>				      Who among would consider themselves
>    so superior to others as to place themselves in a judgemental position
>    in regards to anothers freedom of expression?

The moderators have been delegated the responsibility by the corporation to 
make sure this asset is "properly" used.  If you want "freedom of 
expression", go stand on your soapbox in a public place, and speak to 
whomever wants to listen to you.

>						   Is it Communist in
>    nature?

Quite the opposite.  In this country, we have the freedom to do (most)
anything we wish with what is ours. 

>	     I for one refuse to be connected with a notes file which
>    is governed by a self rightious editor!

I don't see anyone twisting your arm.  If you want to establish a VAX Notes 
conference where anything goes, go ahead (presuming you get your 
management's permission (doubtful...)).  If people would rather read yours,
they will. 

I suggest you read up on this issue, which has been discussed at length in
HUMAN::DIGITAL, topic 111. (KP7 and all that.)  I don't think we need to 
rehash it all over again here.

For your information, the moderators here put up with a lot more than I 
would, and I thank them for providing this conference a home.

Ray_who's_just_come_back_and_found_*this*_garbage

                Not having seen what started this, but having read what
        is included in this note and replies (and seeing the reply after
        the hidden reply on the original); it looks to me like the
        moderators of this conference ARE doing the RIGHT thing!!! 
                
                All-in-all, Moderators - keep up the good work and lets
        get back to the real topic of this conference - CATS!
                
                /s/     Bob

    I for one want to thank the moderators for doing their job in a
    swift manner without "pussy-footing" around!  
    
    :-D
    
    Marion

    Congrats to the moderators for a job well done.
    
    Edd

    I agree with the rest.  The moderators are doing a great job.  
    
    Keep up the good work...
    
    cin
    

    Agreed.  We cannot comment on the content without seeing it; withal,
    the moderators have moderated with a light hand.
    
    I support their action.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Moderators are here for a purpose. I agree with what they've done.
    Keep it up!
    
    Cheryl

    I agree also.  Keep up the good work!!
    
    anna, zildjian, paradiddle
    

    Not having seen the notes in question (and not wanting to!), I must
    agree with Ray in particular (first time in history!) that this
    is not a public forum, that it is a use of Digital assets, and must
    be administered in accordance with policy.  Good for the moderators!!
    
    Mary

    
    I think you are doing a good job cause I like cats!

    Moderation is sometimes necessary.  That's the way it goes.... Now,
    let's get back to talking about CATS!  I am VERY fond of the critters
    (even when Nebula makes a hairball on the rug somewhere between
    my bedroom and the bathroom....)
    
    Charlotte & JFCL & Nebula

    I agree with 632.6.  I myself did not see the original note.
    
    But if the moderators feel that it was not proper for anyone
    else to read.  Then I say good for you!
    
    I have not been reading this file for long but, since I have
    I have enjoyed reading about everyone's four legged kids.
    I have one of my own. 
    
    .14 is right.  Let's get back to talking about CATS!
    
    Kimberley Woods
    

Some comments from a veteran moderator of several conferences:

1) There is no First Ammendment issue here.  This is a private computer network
   operated by DEC solely for the promotion of its business purposes
   (keeping its employees happy aids these purposes, hence employee interest
   conferences).

2) The moderators of a conference can run it as they see fit.  If a user or
   group of users don't like the way that a particular conference is run, then
   they are free to set up their own conference on the same topic.

The moderators in this case seem to have acted prudently and well within the
bounds of generally accepted NOTES etiquette.

--PSW

    We now have empirical evidence that some of us are not
    as far along on the evolutionary scale as others.  Binga
    and Guido - do you walk with your knuckles close to the ground?
    Just curious.
     
    donna
    

    I just got back from vacation, so that's why this is a little late.
    
    Paul is absolutely correct with his statements on moderating notes
    files. My experiance with the ETHERNET notes file (work-related)
    is that there are many people on the net who will place bad or
    misleading information in the file. We have many notes and replys
    set hidden because of these actions. At one point, we even considered
    setting up a command procedure executing at the start of the NOTES
    login to look for two particular individuals and kind of kick them
    off. We decided that that WAS censorship, and we would let those
    people continue to place bad information in and we would set it
    hidden as soon as we saw it - kind of like your hint.
    
    Enough of my ramblings. The hidden note feature was put in for a
    reason. You were completely within your bounds to do this.
    
    Bryan

    You have my vote of confidence too moderators!  
    
    Keep up the good work!
    
    Kathy

    Although I don't know what the note said, I'm glad it was set hidden.
    If someone wants to be rude (or whatever it was) noone else should
    be subject to seeing/reading it.  I agree with freedom of speach,
    as long as it is CLEAN.
    
    Good job moderators!
    

    Had to put in my .02.  I agree.  We put out enough flames every
    day at work.  This is supposed to be fun.  Thanks for the good work!!
    
    Pat
    

The moderators of this conference would like to take a poll as to how the
readership of this conference would like us to handle notes or responses such
as 675.0.  Notes like that one are written with no purpose I can see other than
to stir things up and generally aggravate the members herein.  The notes
referred to in 632.0 were primarily set hidden because they were tasteless and
could be construed as racial slurs.  This note (675) is just merely tasteless
and stupid.  One of the other moderators feels that 675 should be set hidden or
deleted;  I personally believe very strongly in freedom of speech and can't
bring myself to delete or hide it unless the readership wishes it. 

So, please let us know your feelings on the matter, either by replying to this
note or by sending mail.

Thank you for your support,
Pam

    Two issues here:
    
    a) Dealing with the note, and
    
    b) Dealing with the noter.
    
    For (a), the choices are to ignore it (these people just want
    attention), to delete it, or to turn it into a real note (aka, "Why
    is it that people feel so strongly about cats?"). I don't mind one
    way or the other; the KP-comma key is easy to hit.

    For (b), it would be interesting to find out who this person is
    and have someone in that facility stop by their office and ask 
    (non-aggressively) why s/he did it, point being to remind the
    individual that these  are real people s/he is talking to. It may
    not do any good, but then again, it might. (There's also the
    possibility that this is somebody's kid with a temporary account,
    in which case the Somebody should be notified...)
    
    It makes me very unhappy to think that DEC employs people who enjoy
    "ring the doorbell and run" humor, but I guess nobody's perfect.

    -b

If you feel strongly about freedom of speech, I think at least one more 
person ought to see that note -- the author's boss.

Setting it /HIDDEN just makes people wonder about it.

I vote for deletion with no comment.

Ray

    RE: .22
    
    One other option that the moderators spoke of was setting notes
    like these NOWRITE. This would eliminate the piqued curiosity
    caused by hiding the note, and the accusations of the moderators useing
    Communist tactics and supressing free speech, while at the same
    time saving space in the file.
    
    Deb (anyone that knows me wouldn't DARE call me a commie)

I vote for leaving it alone. 

It's irrelevant. Or pointless. Or silly. 

Whatever you choose to call it, it really doesn't matter much among us
adults. Let the kid(s) play. 

The moderator(s) might, however, choose to move any future similar comments
to become replies to 675. They (mod's) might also consider re-naming the
title of 675 to something appropriate. ;^)

Karl_who_doesn't_write_much_but_reads_often

    
    
    I think notes like the one referred to should be deleted, and notify
    the author that it is being done because the note is inappropriate.
    Just because cats were mentioned in the text does not make it ok.
    I don't think there is any excuse for notes like that in any
    conference.
    
    Carole
    

    Let this person start a Cat Hater's conference and use their own
    disk space.
    
    Edd

    Not seeing either note I will take the words of others that
    it was offensive.
    
    I don't like offensive remarks,mail, or phone calls so why 
    should I have to read it in notes?
    
    The few messages I have read that were than deleted by the
    moderators in toher conferences should have been.
    
    I like the idea of the moderator approaching the person
    off line to give a little "manners lesson". If real BAD,
    I agree that person's boss should be informed.
    
    If we don't keep our conferences within teh guidlines of 
    DEC behavior we will no longer have conferences. A few
    bad apples spoil the barrel.
    
    I would hate to lose this priviledge myslef.Sorry for the
    typos.
    

    You guys are reasonable, intelligent, sensitive people who find
    offensive those things that the vast majority of us would find
    offensive or in poor taste, or whatever you want to call it.  I
    go along with the Supreme Court Justice who said that he can't define
    obsenity, but he knows what it is when he sees it.  Having known
    you for n years, I trust that anything you find offensive, I would
    find offensive.  Moderate away...
    
    Boy, this is a job I wouldn't want for anything!!!  You have my
    support!
    
    Mary

I agree that the moderators have a real tough job, and I give both of you a lot 
of credit for tackling the responsibility.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that because you can neither see nor 
hear the noter, you don't know when someone is kidding.  Even if all the 
smiley-faces are used, etc., it's still hard to tell.  Also, there are some 
subjects that people can't be kidded about no matter what, and pets fall into 
that category.  Most people who love animals are slightly paranoid about them.  
I know I am.  I get very upset with any type of animal abuse, much more so than 
human abuse because there are so many organizations who help humans,  All 
animals ask is for care and love and return that love in so many ways.

Perhaps, as moderators, when an objectionable or questionable note appears, 
before doing anything about the note, you can contact the noter and try and 
determine why the note was written, what purpose it could serve, and if the 
noter was deadly serious or deadly kidding.  Again, it's a tough issue.

J.

Joan,

you bring up some good points; it is sometimes very difficult to tell when
someone is joking, smiley faces or not. What one person finds offensive
another might not. 

In the past month, there have been four individuals that have posted notes 
in FELINE that were of questionable content, ranging from offensive (containing
racial slurs) to the ends-justifies-the-means. In all cases, the authors were
contacted by mail, but they never replied. In fact, one of the noters
was not even a DEC employee and was not real easy to track down  (I think it
was his first day as a contractor at DEC). I spent a morning just
trying to track him down (believe me, I have much better things to do with
my time!).

Everytime this kind of thing happens the moderators, and the FELINE reader
community waste a lot of time, energy and network resources being upset.
We have been fairly fortunate in FELINE, for about 2 years we didn't have
anybody trying to stir up trouble. Mary's comment that she knows offensiveness
when she sees it is a good one. The moderators are working on a moderation
policy statement that will be posted as the first note in the file. The text
that will appear on the first screen will contain a very firm warning that
notes deemed by the moderators offensive and void of meaningful feline content
will not be tolerated in this conference, will immediately be set hidden,
and that further unacceptable behavior may result in personnel getting into
the act. (The decision to set offensive notes hidden is based on is based on the
feedback we received in this note, and in mail that was sent to the moderators
individually).

Pam and I welcome any suggestions or feedback you may have.

Deb

    Well, since this is the note where we are supposed to voice are
    opinions, I must say that I am quite upset by the flaming that went
    on in a recent note, to the point where a frequent participant was
    so hurt, she was driven away from this conference.  Most of us are
    very busy people with a lot of positive things going on in our lives,
    and we all know what it's like to never have enough hours in the day to
    do what we *want* to do, let alone *have* to do.  In today's day and
    age, it is very easy to become so burnt out that giving in is a
    heck of a lot easier than working things through.
    
    If a person writes to Feline seeking advice or opinions, then we
    should help that individual and voice our thoughts; however, what
    works for one cat might not work for another.  For instance, if
    I go to Chauncey to give him attention, he walks away every time.
    But when he wants to be loved and fussed over, he lets me know and
    I give him my undivided attention.  Nikki, on the other hand, is
    constantly underfoot to the point where I HAVE to shoo him away
    if I want to get anything done.  This does not mean I don't love
    him, as he definitely gets his share of quality time with me.  The
    point is, none of us would be writing to this notes file if we didn't
    love and enjoy our kitties.  Do you mothers out there *always* practice
    consistent discipline with your children (real children)?  Do you
    not let them go outside for fear they will get hit by a car, beat
    up, stolen, or lost?  Hey, lets face it - life is a chance and we
    have to take the good with the bad.  I happen to let my cats go
    outside; others don't.  But what I have learned from having cats
    is that every time I shake, shiver, and worry endlessly over them,
    things always turn out okay.  And every time I go off the deep end
    thinking one of them has vanished off the face of the earth for
    good, they are always nearby, silently watching me panic and enjoying
    every minute of it.  Some of the people in this notes file come
    across as though their cats are their whole life and if you don't
    do things their way, then you're doing it wrong.  I made the mistake
    of getting so wrapped up in my cats, that other aspects of my life
    began to suffer; in fact, my engagement was almost broken off because
    of my selfishness.  Nothing else mattered to me except getting home
    in time to feed Nikki & Chauncey, catering to their every whim and
    desire, panicing over their whereabouts even when they were indoors,
    etc., etc.  I learned a hard lesson.  Now they are very much a *part*
    of my life, but not my whole life.  And I am much happier for it.
    
    Sorry to get so long-winded here.  It's just that I love to read
    and participate in this notes file, but am starting
    to think twice about sharing my experiences anymore.  Although I
    have never been flamed at, there are times when I can sense the
    implications in the replies to my notes, even those where I was
    never soliciting the opinions of others in the first place.  There
    are a lot of things other cat owners do that I don't necessarily
    agree with, but that doesn't mean they don't love their cats any
    less than I love mine.  We just happen to handle the same situations
    differently.
    
    If our kitties could read, I wonder what they would say?  Let's
    stop trying so hard to read between the lines that we start to forget
    what the purpose of this notes file is really all about.
    
    /Roberta
    
    
     

    
    The monitor of this conference write-locked the note 1881. She even
    singled me out, the originator of all of this, as the SINGLE cause
    for doing this. Apparently that is not sufficient. I have not read
    anything in this notes conference since that time, but I have continued
    to be subjected to your opinions of me. 
    
    I have, as of today, recieved over 40 VAXmail messages, plus six
    phone calls on this topic. Some of them were from some very nice
    individuals, but most of them were to discuss my backround, "feelings",
    to tell me how wrong I was to send a kitten to a shelter, to critize
    me for my dislike of certain cat antics, etc. I thought by removing
    myself from this conference that the mail would end, it has not.
    
    First, to E.T., Kim, Holly, and Ken, please do NOT consider this
    note to be directed to you, it is not. To those of you who within
    the 1881 note, were polite and helpful, this is not directed
    to you either. I thought by even ignoring the mail prior to the final
    one, that all of this would cease.  It has not, I have been bombarded
    in the past day and 1/2 with the same mail as above, plus phone
    calls. The one I received this morning has prompted me to write
    this now. Please understand, I have no interest in extracting all
    of these notes to review all that was said, and to search inside
    myself for errors, misunderstandings, etc. as several of you have
    suggested. This morning's correspondent felt she had to express
    the following; and I quote, "I am concerned with your ability to be 
    a loving mother to a cat, and I would like to recommend that you
    further reconsider doing so at this time". 
    
    I make no comment on this here; however, you have disrupted a customer
    site, my job, AND my job performance, at this point. My job here
    at Digital is very demanding; I support a large corportation and
    over 18 of their plants, around the U.S., Mexico, Brazil and the
    Netherlands. It is time consuming and often very stressful, from
    the travel, and from the customers. I have sufficent work oriented
    stress, without emotional stress being added to this. 
    
    Please, stop feeling the need to continue this hashing of my
    personality and my "fitness", I am asking that you stop the mail
    and calls. I am asking this politely. I do not understand how people
    with all these wonderful and loving cats, husbands, wives, children
    and so forth, cannot find something more positive to focus your
    own life on, than me, a perfect stranger, who some of you apparently,
    deem to be lacking in sensitivity and love of life. If you really,
    truly cannot find more interesting and postive things in your life,
    then I feel sorry for you. Geniunely, sincerely and truly so.
    
    I would ask the monitor to delete all of the 1881 notes, but my
    feeling, perhaps wrongly, is that it would not be done. Therefore,
    this note is here, only to request from all of you to please NOW
    end this topic for yourselves; I do not wish to receive further
    mail on this, it will continue to be ignored anyway. Please do not
    read into this note, I am only trying politely, to ask you to look for
    something else to become of interest to you; and to basically, leave
    me alone. 
    
    Thank you.
                 

    I AM APPALLED!!!  I cannot believe the people in this notes file
    are harrassing you like this!  I realize that they may have a cat/
    kittens best interest at heart, but to put you through this when
    you are obviously trying to make sure you'll make a good home for
    the kitty is beyond belief!
    
    I support your decision and hope that these people will come to
    their senses and offer you an apology.  Nobody needs to be harrassed
    like this. 
    
    My thoughts are with you and if I can be of any help to you please
    don't hesitate to contact me.
    
    Kathy

    I think that the behavior in that file was attrocious!  I understood
    exactly what Kate was trying to say in the first note.  She wasn't
    ready for a kitty then, but I feel that she is ready for a kitty
    now.  She seems like a very sensitive person.  I may be getting
    myself into the doghouse (no pun intended) for this, but I don't
    care!  This file is for talking about our wonderful feline friends,
    and trying to help them.  There is no reason to jump on someone
    who is trying to give a cat a wonderful home!  She stated that she
    was an animal lover, what more do you people want?  
    
    I'm sorry about this, but that file really burned me!
    
    Holly
    

It is troubling to hear that Kate feels she is being harassed.  Since some
of you may not know what the corporation's rules concerning harassment
are, I am going to include some of the official policy on the subject.
In a nutshell, if an individual feels harassed and asks the other person 
to stop, that other individual can be subject to disciplinary action
if they don't stop.  It's that simple.  The definition of harassment is
in the eyes of the person being harassed and is not limited to racial slurs
or sexual harassment.  This comes from Personnel Policies and Procedures
Section 6.03.

"It is the policy of Digital Equipment Corporation that all our employees
should be able to enjoy a work environment free of discrimination and
harassment.

"Harassment refers to behavior which is personally offensive, impairs
morale and interferes with the work effectiveness of employees.  Any
harassment of employees by other employees will not be permitted,
regardless of their working relationship.

"This policy refers to, but is not limited to, harassment in the following
areas:  (1) Age, (2) Race, (3) Color, (4) National Origin, (5) Religion,
(6) Sex, (7) Handicap and (8) Veteran Status.  Such harassment includes
unsolicited remarks, gestures or physical contact; display or circulation
of written materials or pictures degrading to either gender or to racial,
ethnic, or religious groups;  verbal abuse or insults directed at or made 
in the presence of members of racial, ethnic or minority group.

[Some text left out]

"Individuals who believe they have been subjected to harassment from
either a co-worker or a supervisor should make it clear that such
behavior is offensive to them.  If the behavior continues, they
should bring the matter to the attention of the appropriate manager
and/or their Personnel Representative.

"In fulfilling their obligation to maintain a positive and productive
work environment, managers and supervisors are expected to halt any
harassment of which they become aware by restating the Company Policy 
and, when necessary, by more direct disciplinary action.  (See Corrective
Action and Discipline Policy 6.21.) "

I would like to respond to another point Kate brought up in her note
(632.34) where she asks that note 1881 be deleted:

>    I would ask the monitor to delete all of the 1881 notes, but my
>    feeling, perhaps wrongly, is that it would not be done. 
                 
She is correct; it will not be done.  It is my feeling that any noter
can delete their own notes and is free to do so.  I'm not sure if
Kate wants only her own replies deleted or everyone else's as well.
It would appear that she means the latter, in which case she is asking
for censorship of others and I will not be a party to that.

There have been a number of requests of the moderators recently to delete
notes.  These have primarily been from people looking for help placing
cats who wanted the note deleted since the cats were placed.  These noters
were trying to delete their notes from a node other than that from which
it was written - which is not allowed by the NOTES software.  My feeling 
is that the readership of this conference likes to see stories of successful 
placements and that we should leave those around.

However I, as moderator, do not wish to delete notes when the author 
wishes not to be associated with them anymore.  First of all, that ruins 
the continuity of the conference for others.  Secondly, it's been said many 
times that you shouldn't put something in a notesfile that you wouldn't 
want to see attached to your resume.  I would prefer that people put care 
into what they write up front, rather than write something that causes a 
ruckus and then go back to erase all evidence.  

So, this is why I am not going to heed Kate's request.

Pam

    
    
          I have waited long enough to write but now after reading Kate's
    note and not knowing that this was going on I am thorougly disgusted
    with the behavior of whomever these noters may be.  Disgusted enough
    at first reaction to take myself completely away from this file
    so I have no ties whatsoever to some people that think they are
    "kitty gods".  But after the gut feeling there are plenty of noters
    I do sincerely like and so much good can come from this file it's
    not worth sacrificing this.  It's just I guess too much for me to
    think that people that love their cats so dearly can cause such
    pain to a fellow human being and feel they have the right to.  Blows
    my mind.........
    
          Anyway I am not going to disagree or agree with the moderator's
    decision to not delete the notes etc....  However I know that I
    will not delete my notes when the notes that I found exception to
    will still be there for future reading my whomever.  My other
    reservation, is to the new ones coming in.  Whomever
    comes in to read what this file is about and happens to come across
    that note well....let's just say it's not exactly an invitation and
    yes maybe it should stay there to warn the unsuspecting of just
    what they may be assaulted by.  I still can't get over it.  
    Well if anything I hope this has taught some people a lesson.  I
    doubt it but I can still hope not to have to see this again.
    
                                                              kim
    

    I agree wholeheartedly with Holly and Kim.  That whole note was
    blown way out of proportion and it is appalling that Kate had/has to
    endure such harrassment.  She showed absolutely no signs of potential
    abuse or neglect; just simply stated that at one point in her life,
    she could not handle a kitten and it's kittenish tendencies.  She
    did not dump it out on the street or take the easy way out by bringing
    it to a shelter and letting them do the dirty work of finding it
    a home.  Kate cared enough to do that herself; to conduct interviews
    and ask questions and ensure a good home for the kitten.  It saddens
    me that there are people in this file who are so self-rightious
    and overly consumed with their cats that they feel the need to push
    their beliefs onto everyone else.
    
    I feel that if Kate does go ahead and delete her notes but the replies
    to those notes still remain intact, it will make for a lot of confusion
    when new noters access this conference.  If a base note is deleted
    then doesn't it make sense to delete all accompanying replies? 
    Granted it is the moderators choice; however, it would be sad if
    the only reason those replies are remaining in this conference is
    because of someone(s) resentment toward Kate.  I will go back and
    reread Pam's note regarding why in case I missed something.
    
    I guess what's done is done.  Kate, if you are still following this
    particular note, I want to apologize for my first couple of replies
    to you.  Although not flames, they indirectly questioned your reason
    for wanting a kitten, and I was guilty of not fully reading and
    understanding your base note.  I think the best way to deal with
    the people who continue  to send mail is to just delete those
    messages before you even have a chance to read them.  Like the saying
    goes, what you don't know won't hurt you.
    
    Another disgusted feliner,
    
    
    /Roberta
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    There is nothing any of us can say now to make Kate feel any better.
    Hopefully, everyone has learned something from this, especially
    the people who said hurtful things to Kate.  It is probably
    not the best thing for us to start turning on each other in anger.
    This all started out with the best of intentions all around and
    we blew it.
    
    Perhaps it is time to leave it here and move on.
    
    Mary-Michael

    Excuse me, there is an error in my prior note. I said that this
    has all already gone to personnel. I appologize for the error, as
    of the mail I have recieved late this morning and this afternoon,
    it has NOW gone to personnel. 
    
    Please forgive the misinformation.
    
    Thank you.

    
    
          I would like to know why .43 from Kate has been set hidden? 
    Is it really fair that I may have been one of the few that got to
    READ the WHOLE lenghty message and many others do not know what
    the whole story is but only what they have read from the moderator?
    I would like to know what in Kate's message broke conference policy?
    From the looks of it seems as if someone else has contributed to
    the problem and it certainly wasn't Kate.  This all stinks big time.
    
                                      Kim_who_is_getting_really_fed_up_
                                      with_this_type_of_censorship_when_
                                      it_supposedly_isn't_done
    
    Gee I thought I was in the note that was set aside to discuss just
    these types of things......   

         As a mostly read-only "participant" of this conference, it
    appears that this whole thing has been blown completely out of 
    proportion by all parties.  I, for one, will not apologize for the
    behavior of any other participant.....we are all adults and should
    be able to conduct ourselves accordingly.  
         The saddest part is that those of us who rely on this conference
    for the exchange of information on our furry friends will ultimately
    be the biggest losers.
    
    
    Bob

RE:  < Note 632.45 by TPVAX1::ROBBINS >
    
>          I would like to know why .43 from Kate has been set hidden? 

Kim,

Kate's note was set hidden because it quotes extensively from personal mail
I sent her and she did not ask, nor would I have granted, permission for
it to be publicly displayed.  That is not explicitly stated as a conference
policy, it is true, but it is well accepted throughout DEC and other notes
files as something which is not a good thing to do.  

Pam

    I would like to disagree with an serious error here:
    
>Kate's note was set hidden because it quotes extensively from personal mail
>I sent her and she did not ask, nor would I have granted, permission for
>it to be publicly displayed.  That is not explicitly stated as a conference
>policy, it is true, but it is well accepted throughout DEC and other notes
>files as something which is not a good thing to do.  
 
    The note that was hidden quotes extensively, and SOLELY, from Pam's
    note of 632.37 and .38. I did not ask permission to use, as I assume it
    is public domain. It was placed in this conference. If I had quoted anything
    from mail TO me from her, then I would have asked first. I did,
    however quote a short sentance of the mail FROM me to her, that
    she stated in notes was harrassment without giving evidence of the
    act. As that was the sole content of the mail I recieved from her,
    and it was a copy of two public domain notes, I did not see the
    reason to ask first, esp. since it has been common practice in here
    to refer to other notes.
    
    Kate
    

   
    I will ask, again, to end this. It has turned into even a bigger
    mess. I do not appreciate a monitor distorting where my "quotes"
    came from. Again, public domain only (.37/.38). 
    
    I do not at this point know how to responsibly ask that this end,
    period. It seems to me that Pam has taken it upon herself to judge
    what I say, and to interpret what I say. She has that right as an
    individual, but not as a monitor. She also does not have the right
    to distort what I said. Again, the quotes come ONLY from her notes
    in .37 and .38., not from personal mail to me. 
    
    At this point, I am asking all of you as individuals to let this
    end. I would prefer at this point to turn the problem between me and the
    one monitor, over to someone qualified to mediate that.
                        
    I am sorry that things have come to this point. I don't know how
    to appologize enough, NOT for what I have said at any time, but
    for the senseless  of all of this.
                                                                 
    I am sorry.

    
    Well, I was going to stay out of this note completely.
    
    BUT, I'm here - I really think that this whole thing 
    should stop NOW.  What is happening at this time is
    counterproductive, nasty, unpleasant, unprofessional,
    unnecesary, and certainly has nothing to do with CATS.
                               
    I thought that CATS was what this  file is all about,
    and not personalities or personal attacks on each other.
    
           ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
    
    Please refrain from continuing this discussion and lets
    go on the business of CATs.
    
    I realize that this note is for moderation discussions, but I think
    that there is more happening here than that.  
    
    Thank You,
    
    Elaine

    
    My appolgy to all and to Pam, there was indeed a small portion of
    the notes that was not in the note file, but in my mail. 
    
    My error for misreading this, and my error for my accusation. She
    is indeed correct that I quote her from mail that is not in the
    note. 
    
    I owe the sincerest of appologies, for the error, she did NOT keep
    it seperate from her NOTE extraction to me; hence I thought it was
    in the note still.  It is my error COMPLETELY and TOTALLY for not
    making doubly sure. She had included those comments as part of the
    note, but apparently editted it out.
    
    Again, my sincerest appolgies. However, I still think someone outside
    of thise conference needs to mediate the problems between myself
    and Pam, and I will certainly include my mistakes and errors as
    part of the mail that will be looked at.
    
    

    I may be out of place in suggesting this, but, I would like to anyway
    so maybe this type of thing won't get out of hand again.
    
    If any noter feels hurt or personally attacked either in a reply
    to a note or off-line in e-mail, then he or she should notify the
    moderator of the conference.  The moderator should then write-lock
    the note and ask that people refrain from sending their comments
    to the author off-line.  In other words, drop the subject before
    it gets this far.
    
    I know how you feel Kate, because the same thing happened to me in
    Womans notes.  I felt I was personally attacked and hurt by comments
    made both in the replys and from the messages I received off-line.
    I did not pursue or acknowledge the messages and will never open
    that file again.
    
    I realize Kate that you've been hurt, but, there are those of us
    who are behind you.  If you can ever put this behind you, I would
    say the best way to deal with the people who harassed you is to
    get the kitten you want and come back to this notes file to rub
    their noses in it.  Don't let them intimidate you into not using
    this notes file.  I couldn't do that in Womans notes because I felt
    they were just to picky and that maybe I just didn't belong.
    
    You have every right to be a part of this notes file.  You care
    about animals, just like everyone else in this file.  I don't 
    get involved as much as some people do in this notes file.  I ask
    questions about my cats health and behavior.  I might ad a note
    or two about my cats antics.  I've even gotten into some heated
    debates with the fellow feliners.  I will say most of the time
    the people in this notes file are caring.  Maybe a bit to much on
    the animal side than the human side.  If you can, don't give up
    on us.  This will pass and when you get your kitty, I think you'll
    find alot of help (hopefully not grief) from the people in this
    notes file.
    
    Kathy

         I still haven't seen a good reason why .43 should have been
    set Hidden.  Is there something going on under the table against
    Kate that is trying to be hushed up?
    
         I used to think that Digital hired only the best people and
    I felt proud to be one of them.  I am not so proud anymore after
    these last few days.  What has happened to "love thy neighbor"??
    The very least you could do is "live and let live"!!!!
       
         I wonder if some of us might be better off in a file for
    generic animal lovers??  We like them all but we love humans more??
    I suppose I'm set hidden too!
         Kate, hold your self together and do what's right for you!!
    
                                call on me if I can help,
                                     Ken

    A Reminder:
    
    I think that if we all are not careful here in this file,
    that we will not have the opportunity to express ourselves
    at all - what I am saying is that if the problems escalate
    and elevate, we could be shut down entirely.  I think that
    it would be a real shame.  Is that what you all want to
    happen?  Other conferences have been shut down for various
    reasons.  Please keep this in mind when entering your notes.
    Please do not read this lightly.
    
    Noting is a special privledge, not a right!  We are very lucky
    to have this file - let's take a little better care of it.
    
    Thank You,
    
    Elaine

    I second, third, and fourth Elaine.  FELINE Notes is more
    important than any differences we may have individually. 
    Leave it be or we *will* regret it.
    
    Mary-Michael

    I second ET.  I suggest that there be no further discussion of this
    and that we get back to cats.
    

    Soooooooooooo, How's your cats?
    

    I had intended to not ever enter this conference again, however,
    an issue has come up, and I wish to address this to a specific
    individual, however, I think we all should know the stance that
    personnel takes in this, so I am writing this here.
    
    I had requested in an earlier note for several individuals to please
    stop sending me mail, I did not name anyone, I simply made a note-
    wide request to everyone to discontinue this discussion to me thru
    mail. That was ignored by several people. 
    
    I have not at anytime responded on a personal level to any individual,
    on any MAIL sent to me, unless it was of a positive nature,
    then I took the time to acknowledge to that individual that kindness.
    The exception was to Pam, your monitor where I did on one occasion
    send mail. I responded, here in notes also, to mail she sent me, which
    was then hidden. She and I have had a dispute, that has since been resolved
    between us, witout personnel becoming involved, and I am glad that
    she and I were able to work things out.
    
    However, two people have continued to send me mail, given that I
    have asked the favor of not receiving any more. I address this here,
    because one individual has expressed to me that I cannot go to
    personnel with this problem, using as an argument, the idea put forth
    in the note 632.49, as the reason for hiding my mail. I have discussed
    this with personnel in order to clear this up, and so I am stating
    here what I was told by them, so that that individual can better
    understand the ramification of continuing to send me mail. I thought
    however, that perhaps we all should understand this, as well.
    
    Having talked with a member of our personnel staff, here is what
    they conveyed to me regarding ownership versus public domain, in
    the context of what has been occuring.
    
    When a piece of information is delivered from one point of reference
    to another, (through MAIL, All-In-1, KERMIT, COPY, etc.); from the
    point where the user has pressed the RETURN key until the point
    when that information reaches its destination, that information
    is Public Domain. Once that information has reached its destination,
    it is the domain of the owner of that "destination"; a directory,
    a node, a mailbox. When you send mail to another, it then belongs
    to that individual; you, the sender has relinquished ownership.
    Permission to publish must be requested to the owner of that
    information; therefore, if you own the mail, in this instance, you
    obviously don't have to ask yourself for permission to print. The
    sender cannot use the arguement that the person they sent information
    to cant print it without the sender's permission. If that was a
    concern, then the sender should not have relinquished control of
    that information. 
    
    The above is what was expressed to me by personnel as what an
    individual needs to keep in mind when they communicate, in writing
    to another person. 
    
    I am passing this on, NOT in order to hash over any disagreement
    between the monitor and myself, as I said, Pam and I have resolved
    our differences, but I am putting this forth as information, so they
    understand, to the individuals who continue to send me mail, and
    do so with the misunderstanding that I cannot take that mail to
    someone else. Please do not continue your mailings on the mistaken
    impression that it still belongs to you. It does not. 
    
    To those of you who have been upset over this, and concerned over
    the state of things, please accept my appology, and understand that
    no one has been more hurt or upset than myself. I do NOT wish to
    take this issue to a higher authority, I wish as I have stated, to
    end this and to be left alone; I dont think that is an unfair thing
    to wish for. 
    
    To those individuals who continue to want to dig into this, through
    notes and MAIL, please make sure that you understand the above,
    and understand my rights as an individual to forward to anyone,
    things in my possession, that I deem to go beyond reasonable
    discussion, and into the realm of harassment. 
    
    Thank you all for your time and patience.
    
    Kate Brown                                                     
    

    
    	Re: all feline noters
    
    	Please do not respond any more to this note, as far as the
    	incident of the past few days goes.  We stand a good chance
    	of losing this notes file and I'm sure that none of us
    	wants to see that happen.  Let let my reply be the last
    	reply is this note regarding "the incident".
    
    	I wouldn't have written this reply but I noticed another note
    	from Kate which could potentially set off another flurry of
    	responses.  Please, lets all just keep away from this note.
    
    	Thank you,
    
    	Karen                                         
    
    	P.S. Please don't even second my nomination, because every
    	reply (positive or negative) just keeps this note going.