Conference misery::feline_v1

    Bryan et al.,
    
    My very deepest sympathy to you all.  What happened sounds like
    an absolute horror story:  everyone well one minute, and then...
    
    It gives me the chills, especially because we have one of "those
    things."  And yes, it *has* tipped over.  But, like you said, the
    cat jumped off.  Currently it is positioned in a corner to give
    it more stability, but OBVIOUSLY that is not enough for me to
    feel comfortable with anymore!
    
    At the least, you may want to threaten the manufacturer with a
    lawsuit -- to get them to either remove it from the market or
    make it more stable (wider base? screw to wall?).  Let them know
    it will be a class-action suit (and there are plenty of us to
    provide names of "others in the class").  
    
    I don't really know what to say to ease your pain.  All I can
    say is that in a real way, I share your sorrow.
    
    	Penelope

    It is so sad to hear of your loss, but thank you for letting everyone
    know about this problem and maybe you can take some comfort in the
    fact that perhaps you have saved another cat/kitten from injury
    or death.  Please keep us informed on your progress with the
    manufacturer(s) of these things.  I have seen a warning in a vet's
    office.  We make our own and the base is a large heavy piece of
    plywood with 'condo' on one side and 4 1/2 foot pole on the other.
    There is a 'shelf' that fits on top of the 'condo' section (bolted)
    and is supported by a bracket attached to the pole about 2 1/2 '
    from the bottom.  The whole works was covered with carpet.  Rather
    than deprive kitty of the fun and healthful benefit, you may want
    to try building one.  The only problem is that I need help moving
    it to vacuum, but even all three cats charging around on it doesn't
    budge it.  
    
    There should be laws against the unsafe pet toys - lots of the little
    chase-type toys have buttons/bells/felt pieces, etc., that can be
    chewed off and cause serious problems, as well.  So sorry we had
    to find out about condos this way.....
    
    Ellen
    

    Dear Bryan and Jennifer--
    
    I am so sorry that this happened to you.  I know from experience
    how hard it is to lose a beloved pet--they are much more than mere
    animals;  they become part of your family.  You are right to warn
    us all, and do take comfort from the fact that you may have saved
    another kitten from a similar accident.  
    
    At times like this, I wish that there were a magic way to assauge
    pain and grief.  It is right (and healthy) to mourn your loss, and
    to be angry.  Please let us all know what you do as far as contacting
    manufacturers, etc., and I will help if I can.  I know that many
    others would, too.  The reason we are all involved in this notefile
    is because we love and care for our cats as best we can.
    
    Thank you for sharing this warning with us all--I know how tough
    it must be to do so when you're hurting.  My prayers for you both
    now,
    
    Jane

    I have one of those foolish things in my den.  I guess it'll go
    right in the garage when I get home.  I'd throw it out, but I think
    it should be saved so that we all can, as a group, take it to the
    manufacturer and stickit it up his <um, er, ponder??> NOSE!!!
    
    Keep us informed.  We're all behind you.
    
    Marion

    Re .0:
    
    My sympathy.  One kitten's loss diminishes us all.
    
    Re .4, et al:
    
    "Getting rid of it" may not be the appropriate answer if the cats
    love it.  It ought to be possible to make it tip proof.  Onme
    suggestion: Bracing, thus:
    
    
    
                            ___________
                           /|         |\
                          / |         | \
                         /  |         |  \  
                        /   |         |   \
                       /    |         |    \
                      /     |         |     \
                     /      |         |      \
                    /       |         |       \
                   /        |         |        \
                  /         |         |         \
                 /          |         |          \
    
    
    ...The vertical/horizintal lines defining the "condo" and the slanted
    lines representing dowels or equivalent to act as tip preventers.
    
    This doesn't mean I wouldn't complain _loudly_ about the issue,
    but if you've already got cats who like these things ... if they
    can be made safe, why deprive them of the things?  If they _can't_,
    of course (insufficient anchoring availablr, etc.)...
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.                                 

    
    RE: .0
    
    My sympathy also. I know how painfull it is too loose a beloved
    cat, and especially in such a needless needless accident. I still
    think that manufactures of cat furniture need to put warning labels on
    any furniture that isn't of a "tip-proof" design.
    
    Another piece of cat furniture that there ahve been problems with
    is the carpeted mailboxes. While they look cute, they can be dangerous.
    If it tips over while the cat is in it, the door can close can the
    cat can suffocate. Ive heard it suggested that anyone that has these
    things remoce the mail box door and drill holes on the other end
    incase the thing tips over.

    RE: .1-.6
    
    Our thanks to you all.
    
    We had a post-mortem done on her, and I just got the results. She
    died of a concussion and a broken neck. All the blood (and there
    was a great deal of it) was from a cut tongue. That makes me feel
    a little better that my feeble attempts at first aid were to of
    no avail. The damage was fatal and there was nothing we could have
    done. He said he will put his findings in writing.
    
    Our vets were attached to her as well, mainly because she was ill
    before and fought so hard to live. We took her to the vet a week
    before and he pronounced her as being out of the woods. She had
    spunk and was very loving. We will miss her alot.
    
    Now I have to call her breeder. I hope this breeder will sell us
    another. Her kittens and cats are really wonderful. Imagine walking
    through the door and having 20-30 kittens and cats decend on you
    wanting attention. When we first saw this kitten, she went up to
    Jenny and sat in her lap purring the whole time we were there.
    
    I know there has been discussion in other notes about losing one,
    but I have a couple of questions of those who have lost one. (maybe
    I should move these to the appropriate note?) Anyway:
    
    	1) I feel that I have let our cats down by not giving them a
    	   safe atmosphere. These cats are in our stewardship, and I
    	   feel like I haven't done my job. Is this normal?
    
    	2) We would like to get another siamese. Jenny doesn't want
    	   a cat exactly the same (which I can understand). Part of
    	   me says that a breeder won't sell me another kitten because
    	   I didn't take care of the first one. How do breeders look
    	   at this? How long should we wait before we get another, or
    	   should we?
    
    	3) Our other two seem to have a very real sense that something
    	   tragic has happened. They usually are pretty aloof, but last
    	   night and today they were very cuddly, but at the same time
    	   very skittish. The Russian Blue went into the bathroom where
    	   she died and took off. What kinds of behavior can we expect?
    
    I am reminded of how fragile life is. Here one minute and gone the
    next. At lease she is happy where she is and will be waiting for
    us.
    
    Thanks again to all.
    
    Bryan
    
    

    Bryan, your feelings are completely normal.  I went through the
    exact same thing when we lost one of our cats.  You can rest easier
    knowing that you have prevented this tragedy from ever happening
    to any of your cats again.
    
    As a breeder, I do not know how other breeders would act, but given
    the facts of how the accident occured, I would give you another
    kitten if I had one available.  What happened was a tragedy and
    not something that you could have prevented.  Up until it happened
    there was no indication that injury could befall a cat using the
    condo.  
    
    I would call the breeder as soon as you are able and let her know
    what happened.  But, I would wait a little while before getting
    another kitten.  Not just to accept what happened and to experience
    your grief, but also to make sure that you are not replacing the
    kitten you lost.  Chances are your new kitten won't be exactly like
    your beloved kitten, and you want to be ready to accept the
    differences.
    
    My cats also grieved after we lost our cat.  I think that is normal
    too.  They would wander around the house, calling to him, looking
    for him.  It was heartbreaking.  They need time to adjust too.
    
    Jo Ann
    

      I feel losing a cat is like losing a human. They are our friends,
    confidants, lovers, and are real family members.
      In March, an abandoned cat came to our door, and of course, it
    was a pregnant female. We called her Pepper, and took her in out
    of the cold and heavy snow. She had 6 kittens on March 28th. They
    were absolutely adorable, and I was there for the whole event.
      Well, about the time they opened their eyes symptoms of disease
    began showing up and I lost 4 of them in a week. The vet had explained
    there was nothing anyone could do, it was a virus carried by Mom
    and given to the kittens before they were even born. The remaining
    two are alive and very well luckily, but I must say it was very
    stressful to lose the babies so fast, especially after holding them
    and seeing how happy Momcat was with them. I felt so bad about it,
    that even though I knew it was certainly nothing I had done, it
    just bothered me to the core. Finally I had to take a vacation day
    from work and go hiking to help clear my head. The sad thing is
    there are few people around who feel that strongly about animals.
    The day it happened, I went to work, I couldn't imagine my boss
    understanding that I wouldn't be in because 4 kittens died. You
    know what I mean, some people just don't understand at all. Even
    if they see you with tears in your eyes, they still don't realize.
      My condolences.
                          Denise
    
                                            

    It constantly amazes me that no matter what your troubles are, someone
    else has it worse. I couldn't imagine losing 4.
    
    We called the breeder last night, and all had a good cry over the
    phone. She was very sympathetic, and said she would give us another
    for free. I couldn't believe the offer. I tried to talk her into
    taking the same amount, but she didn't think it was right. She said
    it was hard enough to find good loving homes. She currently has
    three litters, so if anyone wants a Siamese kitten, I highly recommend
    her. Her cats are so sweet and loving. If anyone wants her name
    and number, I'll post it.
    
    Jenny and I both feel relieved now that the vet told us she died
    instantly, even though she moved around alot for that awful 5 minutes.
    After a sleepless night Sunday, we slept well last night.
    
    Now on with the fight. I really feel strongly that pet furnature
    and toys should be made safe. If they are intended to be free standing,
    they should either have outriggers like Steve suggested, or have
    a wide enough/heavy enough base to keep it from tipping over. Imagine
    if it was a toddler instead of a kitten!
    
    What do you suggest? I haven't gotten the name of the manufacturer
    yet, but when I do, what I WANT is for them to be taken off the market
    or made safe. Is that enough? Is it worth my while to retain a lawyer
    and get a cease and desist order or something? I'm not a legal expert,
    and could use some suggestions.
    
    Thanks again,
    Bryan

    Bryan,
    
    I'm glad your breeder understood. as a breeder, I would offer to
    replace the kitten free, (or actually, my usual offer, for the cost
    of kitten shots).  Having lost one recently, I do feel for your
    grief (and understand sleepless nights).
    
    We have never had the problem you had, but I agree that something
    should be done.  In order to get a desist order, you would need
    to prove willful negligence.  Your actual steps probably should
    be:
    	(1) Contact and inform the manufacturer of the problem
    	(2) Discuss his proposed remedy
    	(3) Inform the local humane society, both yours and the one
    in the manufacturer's locale
    	(4) Inform the BBB
    	(5) Inform, via letter, the major cat publications, i.e. Cat
    Fancy, and CATS magazine
    	(6) Inform the cat fancies in the nation, i.e CFA, TICA, CFF,
    etc.
    	
    	If the manufacturer does not propose a solution, or "shrugs
    it off", then you might have a legal case. Don't just go for a desist
    order, sue the B******D for whatever you can (I've got some
    suggestions). Talk to the local animal groups to see if they would
    support a animal cruelty suit.
    
    	When you write your letter, please send me a copy.  I will offer
    to send it to all the cat fancies, the cat publications, and the
    national breed organizations I belong to (Abys, Maine Coons, and
    HHPs). I would also like to send it to the major veterinary
    organizations, such as Cornell and Texas A&M.
    
    If anyone has any other suggestions, let's hear them.  Let's start
    the fight for animal safety.
    
    Dave

    
    
    Bryan,
    
    I just wanted to let you know I understand your grief.  I think
    anyone who feels strongly about animals and loves them, goes through
    a grieving process.  My heart goes out to all who have lost a loving
    animal friend.
    
    Carole
    
    P.S.  Please post the name, address and phone number of the breeder
          you mentioned - for not-too-distant future reference.  Thanks.

    Another way to spread the word would be to send an article to the
    usenet. There's a "pets" distribution list, and I'm sure its readers
    would appreciate the warning. (I've been following this newsgroup
    for a couple of months and haven't seen any similar warnings before.)
    
    Instructions for submitting articles to the usenet follow the
    form-feed. The newsgroup name is "rec.pets".
    
    (If you would like to subscribe to the newsgroup also, see the USENET
    conference on ROLL:: for instructions.)
    
    -b
    
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    Bryan, 
    
    Thank you for sharing with us.  What a terrible experience.  I have
    a 7 month old and I know how crushed I would be if anything happened
    to her.  
    
    I have always thought that those "trees" and "condos" were cute,
    but I also noticed that they seemed so unstable, so I built my own.
    It is just a 3 foot high box, with 3 tiers, but it is sturdy and
    open on 2 sides and works well.  Now I will remember never to be
    tempted by the prettier ones at the stores.
    
                              Carol

    Most of the cat-trees and cat-condos I've seen (including the one
    I got for my critters when we got a new sofa-- I bought them their
    OWN piece of furniture!) have a spring-loaded top like the top of
    a pole lamp, so they can't be tipped over - of course you can't
    get that kind if you have a cathedral ceiling or something.

    I'm sorry to hear of such a tragic accident.  I have often noticed
    these kitty condos and thought about purchasing them at one time
    or another, but never did.  
    
    I'm not sure if you have already located the company that made the
    one you own, but I was out today and saw one for sale in The Fish
    Nook in Acton.  It was a 3 story condo, and even that was very tippy!
    They had it propped against some fish tanks near the door!!!  I
    wrote down the name and address on the label, there may be more
    than one maker.
    
    The maker of the particular one that I saw today was:  American
    Cat Emporium, Elburn IL  60119
    
    I know that nothing can bring back your loved pet, but maybe you
    can prevent the same thing from happening to another unfortunate
    victim.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    I, too, can completely relate with your sense of loss. It seems that
    loved ones never leave in a very neat and clean manner (as if that
    would help).
    
    I would never have expected to be grieving this long (well, it's
    only been six weeks) after the death of our cat, but as yet, I
    feel o.k. only when I don't think about it, and I keep reminding
    myself that it's o.k. to not think about it. Otherwise, I'd be stopped
    dead in my tracks. What has helped me is knowing that there are
    so many who understand. 
    
    The lesson I have learned is that there's nothing dear to you that
    you cannot lose, and you only have the present to give those things
    your full appreciation. That helps a little bit, too.    
                             
    
    						Scott

    
    I have some more information about the Cat Condo that started this
    mess.
    
    This one is called Scratchmaster and is model number KH-3. This
    particular one came from a company in Missouri called United
    Pharmacutical (UPCO). I hesitate to call them just yet because I
    want to ask you all what the next step should be. These people are
    probably a wholesaler, and probably not the manufacturer.
    
    Anyway, when my wife called the pet store owner that apparently
    donated or otherwise obtained the condo, she related to the woman
    on the other end why we were calling. The woman on the other end
    told my wife to hold on while she asked her husband. Jenny then
    told me to turn down the TV and I did. She said she could hear the
    conversation on the other end. Jenny heard laughter, and comments
    like "they should know better." Jenny was infuriated.
    
    Besides all that, what is the next step? Do we continue to trace
    the manufacturer, or consult a lawyer now, or what?
    
    Bryan

    That was a terrible way to lose a beautiful kitten.  Such a needless
    waste.  They demand safeguards for a child's toy, but there are
    none for an animals.  What is the difference?  They are all our
    "babies".  I am sorry I read this, but also glad.  I was thinking
    of brying one for our three cats for Xmas but now know I won't.
    I know I would be devastated if I lost any one of them.  You can't
    replace your "children".  The person that was on the other end of
    the line with your wife can't own animals.  He is just out for the
    money.  How would he feel if one of his children was killed by one
    of the un-safe toys on the market.  Would he laugh then?  The offer
    of a free "replacement" is nothing less than I would expect from
    a true cat lover/breeder.  Keep us informed.  You have made us aware
    of the hazards of these items and there definitely will be less
    sold in the future.  Maybe that alone won't solve the problem, but
    it will help.
    
    Sandi
    

    Last week I was looking through a catalog and actually found one
    of these tall cat condo's that actually looked safe!  It was a floor
    to ceiling model that actually had a pole that would extend to the
    ceiling and some how attach to the ceiling.  If anyone wants the
    info, I'd be happy to send it to them.
    
    Holly

    Summit Pet Products - they should be at the Boston Marriott Show
    - formerly the Copley Show - they have a great condo - square,
    well actually a rectangle  **********
                               *        *
                               *  ***   *
                               *  * *   *
                               *  ***   *
                               *        *
                               *  ***   *
                               *  * *   *
                               *  ***   *
                               *        *
                               *        *
                               **********
    
    Three levels counting the bottom floor - VERY STURDY - high enough
    for a tall cat to stretch to scratch - holes between floors - the
    cats can go from the bottom floor to the top floor, but have to
    come out the front to get to the top - plywood construction -
    good quality carpeting inside and out -  costs about $60.00.
    Prices may have changed, but I've had two for 2 years, and
    they have taken quite a beating and are still going strong!
    They drag their vavorite toys inside to hide them - chase
    each other up, in and around - sleep on the top - when you
    remove the interior shelves, you can fold the unit almost
    flat - check it out if you go to the Marriott Show - 
    February 13,14.  They also have great 3-tier trees with
    constructed with excellent materials and very safe!  I've
    had one for, gee, at least 3 - 4 years - it's abused daily
    by 12 not-very-skinny kids!
    
    
    
    E.T. (p.s., an artist I am not, especially on the screen!) 
    
                                                              
    
    
    
    

    Sorry, should have added this to the previous - another safe
    furniture maker is Cat House Originals - you all may have seen
    their stuff at various shows - they are the folks that make
    stuff with trees (logs) - I finally broke down and got the
    kids one for Christmas - they really love it - the silly
    things weighs about 100 lbs! Has three or four levels -
    good quality carpeting - they will also make one to 
    order for your home - they, too, should be at the Boston
    Show - they usually do.  I was worried that the logs would
    dry out - but they guarantee all products with a free 
    replacemnt policy if anything goes wrong - it's funny,
    I can now tell which of my kids has had outdoor experience
    before adopting me - they are the ones that can climb the
    logs to the next level and not sort of drag themselves to
    the next level!!  They are getting quite a bit of exercise
    from this thing!
    
    E.T.

    As for the floor to ceiling condo it had a large base that I believe
    had two stories with an entrance to the second floor from the first
    floor and from the outside.  Then there was a tall pole that had
    I believe 3 shelves on it.  It was all covered with brown carpet.
    It was in the Petigree catalogue.  I know that this catalogue is
    a bit more expensive than most other places, but after reading the
    base note to this topic, I think this may be worth it considering
    that it attaches to the ceiling.  I don't have the catalogue here
    at work so I don't know the price.  I'll post the price tomorrow.
    
    Holly

    Re: .24
    
    Holly,
    
    I've used that type of Kitty condo and would not get another one.
    It doesn't attach to the ceiling. The pole is spring-loaded (like
    some shower curtain rods) with a nylon button at the top.  It relies
    on friction to keep it upright.  We had some interesting marks on
    the ceiling when it kept tipping and the base gouged the linoleum
    in the cats' room when it went over.  It just doesn't have the
    stability. Another friend who bred Birmans had a condo/tree which
    started as a huge pyramid so there was a big broad base to keep
    it stable.  Main drawback was the size since it was almost 4 feet
    to a side and it weighed over 100 pounds when assembled.
    
    Frank

    I have a 'cat tree" with a spring-loaded top - sort of like the
    top of a pole lamp.  It works great - I don't think there is any
    way the cats could dislodge this thing; it has a big solid carpetted
    plate on the bottom, a sort of cat-scratching post, a carpetted
    box with several entrances and exits in the middle, another
    cat-scratching post on top of that, and at the very top a shelf
    (The Fickle's favorite spying-location); in my house the shelf ends
    up about six inches below the ceiling.  The spring-loaded pole top
    holds it all securely in place.  I can't help you on where to get
    one like it, though - it was a discontinued model at a pet store,
    and still cost $100 several years ago.  I got it the same weekend
    as I got the new sofa - figured I'd get the cats their own piece
    of furniture!  It replaced a cat-scratching post that was too short
    for The Fickle, who likes to stretch out all the way when scratching
    (she's a BIG kitty; this is the cat who is "tall" enough to open
    doorknobs like a dog, by holding them between her front paws and
    leaning into the door while turing the knob).

    I also have a cat tree with a tension pole and 6 very rambunkious
    cats haven't knocked it over yet. It also has a wide base to add
    to the tip proof design. It is the famous Deluxe Kitty-Playground
    II made by Abeta Pet Supply (It is the one that they feature in
    their ads in the cat magazines). See note # 654.8 for more details.
    
    Deb

                Some general experience with the "pole lamp" concept of
        holding things up makes me very leary of using it hold up
        something as heavy and dynamic (ever had a cat jump off your
        stomach (ummph)) as a cat condo. In my experience the holding
        power of those poles varies greatly with three things. The
        strength of the spring in it. The amount of compression the
        spring gets (which will vary with your ceiling height - and
        ceiling do vary a lot). And the type of ceiling with smooth
        ceilings being the worst for holding and very rough ones also
        not too good (less contact area on a rough one).
                
                Not being able to see the actual setup and how these
        things come together for your particular installation, I won't
        make a black or white judgement; but, PLEASE, make sure that
        yours is adaquately anchored! If the spring in the pole isn't
        enough, then add support somehow.
                
                /s/     Bob

A friend recently gave me a cat condo like the one described in .0 since her
cats don't use it anymore (they've all been declawed).  Having read this
note I was cautious about it and, sure enough, each of my cats managed to
tip it over as soon as they stretched to scratch on it.  I had considered
trying a tension pole to the ceiling or bolting the condo to the walls, but
neither solution seemed ideal.

What we've done is attach a very large (2' x 3') plywood board to the base
with screws and put the condo in a corner of the living room.  It's been that
way since last Sunday and seems to be working fine.  One of my cats is close
to 18 pounds and he's done all sorts of things to it, but so far so good.

I also have had, for the past year, one of those Booda Kitty Gyms which has
a very large triangular base with three hemp encircled boards attached at
the top to a very small triangular base.  Sounds very sturdy?  Seems that
whenever I go away for a few days, my cats manage to tip it over!

Pam

                Too add a little fuel to this fire, I have seen a cat
        (about a 17 pound one) tip over a full size Grandfather clock
        (and not one of these modern flyweights!) where the weights
        alone were too heavy for my mother to pick up! No, the clock
        wasn't at all tipsy in its location.
                
                /s/     Bob