Conference misery::feline_v1

    I have very limited experience in this area (one litter) but it
    was an extreme case so I now what I will have on hand in the future.
    
    1.  KMR- kitten milk replacer
    2.  eye dropper and kitten baby bottle
    3.  heating pad
    4.  lots of cotton balls - in case you have to stimulate the kittens
        bowels and bladders for them
    
    Those are the things that I need when my household pet cat gave
    birth to her kittens about 7 years ago.
    
    Here is her story as best as I can remember it.  She was pregnant
    before we knew she was old enough to be in heat.  (I'm alot smarter
    now)  She was less than a year old - I think she was about 7-8 months
    and too small to be having kittens.  She mated with a very large
    cat and her kittens were too big for her to deliver herself.  To
    complicate things even more... they were breach and it was a dry
    birth due to the fact that her "water" broke at 4:00 am and the
    kittens did not start arriving until 10:00 pm.  I took her to the
    vet about 4 times during the day and he kept telling me not to worry
    everything was going along just fine.  I had read a manual on cats
    and their birthing process and my instincts told me something was
    awfully wrong but he assured me that I was over reacting and not
    to worry.  
    
    The first kitten got stuck in the birth canal.  It was in the breach
    position with its hind leg caught up inside the birth canal.  I
    rushed her to the emergency vet who tried to manipulate the kitten
    out... to no avail.  That kitten died.  
    
    The emergency vet had to perform a C-section to remove the other
    kitten.  My cat was anemic (found out this fact while they were
    doing the blood work in preparation for the c-section) and required
    several hours of transfusions before being able to undergo surgery.
    The vet warned me that my cat and her kitten would probably not
    survive the surgery.  I told her to go ahead with the surgery because
    they would not live without it. 
    
    The vet delivered the kitten at 5:00 am the next morning and we
    named the kitten Alpha Omega.  My cat was too weak to care for Alpha
    so we took her home at 3 hours old and proceeded to provide for
    all of her needs.  This is where the above mentioned supplies come
    in.  We had to hand feed her every 2 hours around the clock and
    make sure that she was warm and comfortable.  We also had to stimulate
    her to carry out her bodily functions and imitate a queen's grooming.
    
    She grew up thinking I was her real mom.  My cat was not able to
    nurse her so we took care of that until she was weaned.  All I can
    say is "Thank goodness there was only one kitten!"
    
    Like I said before... this was an extreme case and doesn't happen
    very often and I didn't relate it in order to scare you.  I just
    wanted you to know to follow your instincts.  And having these things
    on hand will help if something *should* happen.
    
    Jo Ann
    

    I always have the following on hand (some of these were on Jo's
    list!):
    
    . a bowl or basin of warm water
    . plenty of paper towel
    . pampers....the kind that open up flat!
    . scissors or nail clippers and hemostats - for cutting cords
    . KMR
    . heating pad set up in extra box
    . clock to keep track of birth times
    . small scale that weighs ounces if your interested in weighing
    the kittens (I don't, but alot of breeders like to.)
    
    If it was a summer birth, I'ld say also some cool cloths for wiping
    the mother's head to keep her cooler.
    
    Something that I didn't realize on my first litter is that it can
    sometimes take an hour or more inbetween kittens.
    
    
    For the kittening box, I use one of those covered litter boxes,
    I put in an old sheet or towel and then put about 3-4 pampers opened
    up on top of it.  As the kittens arrive, the wet pampers can be
    removed and the one underneeth will be dry and clean because of
    the plastic inbetween.  I find that this keeps the mother cat cleaner
    and hopefully more comfortable.  The cover of the box can be removed
    quickly if you have to get to the female in a hurry, but will provide
    the security and darkness that the mothers look for.
    
    If I think of anything else, I'll let you know.
    
    cin
    

    
    RE: .1
    
    Jo Ann,
    
    I have had several litters, but my first experience was nearly
    identical to yours.  Same reason for trouble, same number of kittens,
    same kitten bonding (etc).  I will tell you, however, that the vet
    I used then is no longer my vet.  I now have Marlboro Animal Hospital
    and Dr. Schwartz.  She seems to be the vet that understands my 
    (over?)reactions to my cat's problems.  Since then, I never have
    birthed kittens myself.  When my cat goes into labor, I bring her
    in.  Dr. Schwartz checks her out and the waiting begins.  I stay
    with her (the cat) and the doctor checks with me periodicly.  In
    one case the doctor induced labor and then delivered 4 beautiful
    kittens.  I don't remember how much she charges for this special
    attention, but she seems more than happy to provide it.  I wouldn't
    think of doing it any other way.
    
    I only have a few additions to the list of supplies already given.
    
    1)  Those cotton balls that Jo mentioned to stimulate the kittens
        elimination - I found that the cotton square pads worked a bit
        better.
    
    2)  The baby bottle and eye dropper feeding method worked out a
        bit clumsy.  The baby bottle that I got from the vet had a nipple
        that was not long or pointed enough to get far enough into the
        kittens mouth to stimulate sucking.  The eye droper was the
        correct shape, but was not flexible enough for her to use without
        quite a mess and a bit of choking.  We made due in spite of
        it all, but since then I have seen exactly what I needed then.
        It is the basic shape of the nipple that is key.  Find one that
        has a tip that looks like an elongated eye dropper.  The skinny
        pointed part should be around 1/2 inch long.
    
    3)  My heating pad has hot and cold spots, so I was not comfortable
        with putting the kitten directly on it.  In addition, I was
        not sure just how  much padding would be too little or too much.
        I put a hot water bottle over the heating pad and then covered
        it all with a blanket.  This eliminates any sort of hot spots.
        Even when the mom cat got home, I left the pad and bottle in
        the bed.  I figured she could use the pampering too.
    
    Best of luch to you, Penelope.  Since I am expecting kittens on
    March 21, I'll be looking in on this note for info I can use too.
    You can NEVER have enough information.

    
    
    Today is day #54 in the 65 day vigil for Toastie's Abyssinian litter.
    Boy, has she ever "filled out"!  She is much bigger than she was
    the last time when she had two kittens.  She has taken to stretching
    out on her side or back on the floor or bed to be sure that nobody
    misses her round tummy.  She loves to have her belly very gently
    stroked.  As you do this, you can feel little kitten-lumps.  She
    is carrying at least three.  I'd say she is carrying four like her
    mother always did because she is as round as her mother always got,
    but she is a much smaller cat than Mom-cat is, so I'm not sure.
    I'll keep you all posted.
    
    BTW, Penelope, did you realize that this is note #501, and it is
    about your Russian Blue kittens.  So, I guess that we could say
    that this is the "501 blues" note (chuckle).

    RE: 501 blues
    
    Boo! Hiss!

    
    Well, my kittens finally arrived.  They were born on March 18, at
    around 5:00 AM.  Toastie and the kittens (two of them) are doing fine.
    Toastie had a hard time of it and I think that Penelope and other
    people who might try to birth kittens may be interrested, since
    the very best was made of a rough situation.  
    
    7:00PM - March 17.  Toastie had been acting restless.  She cried
    at the food dish, but did not eat what I gave her.  At 7:00 PM I
    noticed that she had a slight pinkish discharge.  Though it was
    only day #61, I knew this was it.  I called Marlboro Animal Hospital
    and spoke with Dr. Schwartz.  We had made arrangments to have her
    in the hospital for the birthing, but she was early.  Dr. Schwartz
    told me that some of her staff were on vacation and it was about
    the worst time for her to go into labor.  She could help me only
    if the birth was natural.  If a C-section were required, she would
    have nobody to assist her.  I decided to go it alone (gulp).  Cat
    and human are doing fine.
    
    9:00 PM - March 17.  Toastie had been in light labor for two hours.
    Her breathing has become more rapid and shallow.  Her slow discharge
    continues.  She seems comfortable and she has decided that she is
    going to have her kittens on my bed!  No matter how many times I
    move her to another location, she relocates herself on my queen
    size water bed half propped up on the pillows.  After much discussion
    (she and I), we compromise and do it her way.  I put a plastic garbage
    bag and some towels under her and hope for the best.  She was still
    restless, shifting position continually.  You could see alot of
    kitten movement in her sides.  Never the less, she continues to
    purr, so I figure she is not in too much pain.  After a while she
    begins a closed mouth pant.  Cat is doing fine - human is starting
    to perspire.
    
    11:00 PM - March 17.  Toastie began hard labor.  She was alternately
    panting (mouth closed) and bearing down (pushing).  In between pushing
    she was purring lowdly.  Around 11:30 her water broke.  I spent
    the next few hours wondering why they ever chose the term "water".
    Cat is doing fine - human is starting to hiperventelate.
    
    1:00 AM - March 18.  Toastie's contractions had become much stronger
    and they were much more frequent, comeing in sets of two or three
    some two to four minutes apart.  You can see the movement of the
    kittens as the were break dancing in her tummy.  Cat is doing fine -
    human is breathing into paper bag and paceing.
    
    2:30 AM - March 18.  Toastie's contractions are more frequent but
    not as strong as they were a few hours ago.  She doesn't seem to
    be in much discomfort, but the break dancing has changed to a slow
    waltz.  I had heard that Tufts University had an all night emergency
    room.  I got the number forom the telephone operator.  I described
    the situation to the doctor who returned my call within  five minutes.
    He agrees that I should bring her in.  Cat is doing fine - human
    is haveing trouble getting dressed.
    
    3:15 AM - March 18.  Toastie seems to be out of labor.  Dr. Zanotti
    (sp?)has ex-rayed her and we find that she has two kittens.  He
    feels there is a good chance that she can deliver them.  They are
    big kittens, but probably not too big for her to deliver.  They
    are in a good position for delivery as well.  Her contractions,
    however, were not strong enough so he gave her several shots to
    induce labor.  Cat is doing fine - human is starting to whisper
    "push ... push" to the kitty and trying to demonstrate the process
    by holding her breath and scrunching up her face for the kitty to
    see.
    
    3:45 AM - March 18. Her contractions have strengthened (see what
    a few demonstrations can do?) but still no kittens.  The doctor
    gives her a few more shots and starts to talk about a C-sectrion.
    Cat doing fine - human is now audibly chanting "push ... push ...
    push!".        
    
    4:14 AM - March 18.  Doctor and human are now standing hunched over
    the poor cat shouting in unison "PUSH !!!  PUSH !!!
    PUUUUUSSSSSHHHH!!!!".  One kitten is delivered  
    Cat and kitten doing fine - human is jumping
    up and down and wondering why she didn't bring cigars.
    
    4:45 AM - March 18.  Second kitten is deliverd with less effort
    as the first.  Cat, kittens AND human are all fine, fine, fine.
    
    
    On a more serious note, I feel very lucky to have been present for
    the birthing.  I am also very to live only 20 minutes from Tufts.
    They have a beautiful facility there including an intensive care
    center.  The moment I got there I knew everything was going to be
    just fine.  They did a fantastic job.         

    Let me be the first to say congratulations to both you and Toastie!!
    And... my compliments to the cheering section!!!
    Jo Ann

    I'm really getting excited about this.  Nutmeg is beginning to have
    a noticeable belly.  Most interesting of all is that her purrsonality
    has changed *dramatically*.  She used to be a bit skittish and timid.
    Now (those maternal hormones?) she will run up to me, she purrs
    like crazy, and even kneads (which she didn't do before she got
    pregnant).  I love the cuddling.  Is this common in pregnant cats?
    
    I've got a supply of everything I could need and then some.  I figure
    if I prepare for the worst, there will be no trouble (sort of like
    carrying an umbrella -- that's when it *doesn't* rain!).  Well,
    I am not really superstitious, just rather be safe than sorry. 
    
    She had her "prenatal" exam last week, and the vet says she looks
    just fine and there is no question that she is, indeed, in the family
    way.  I'll bring her back once more the week before she is due.
    
    I am astonished at the number of inquiries I have had about the
    kittens (guess there are a lot of closet-Russian-Blue-lovers out
    there).  But those of you from FELINE were among the first to inquire,
    so don't worry.  If I don't have enough kittens to go round, then
    we'll just get on with having more kittens... and more kittens...
    and...
    
    I just can't wait:  it is all somewhat miraculous when I really
    think about it!
    
    	Penelope

    When my hhp female was pregnant (mentioned earlier in this note)
    she would round up all the other cats in the house and carry them
    by the scruff of the neck to her chosen birthing spot.  This may
    not seem to extraordinary to some of you but consider these points...
       
        *She absolutely HATED my other female cat
        *Two of my other cats were over 15lbs a piece
        *The chosen birthing spot was on top of the water bed - a couple
         of feet off the floor, and she managed to get everyone of the
         other cats up there herself
    
    It is really funny what a little hormones will do to them!  Can
    you just picture this pregnant cat trying to drag a 15lb Maine Coon
    up to the top of the waterbed!
    Jo

    Last night I played telephone midwife to a sealpoint Birman down
    in southern California who gave birth to four healthy kittens.
    
    Talk about the blind leading the blind... the owner of the cat called
    me up last night at about 6:00pm and said that the kittens were
    going to be breach and she didn't know what to do.  I got out the
    ole cat health books and we went through it step by step!
    Unfortunately two of the kittens did not make it (there were six
    in the litter, two of them were stillborn) we tried to revive them
    but it didn't work.  They were born without their sacs, and they
    were the last two kittens.  The queen was very tired by the time
    these two started to arrive.  Is there anything that could have
    been done?  One of the kittens appeared to have not survived the
    delivery but the other one was not fully developed yet.
    
    The queen is doing very well now as are the four kittens.  This
    was a very educational experience for me since the only other
    experience I have had with a delivery was when the vet performed
    a c-section on my household pet.
    
    Jo
    
    
    

    You're on, Jo!
    
    What's your phone number and where will you be on 7 May?
    
    	:-)

    I can be reached at (408) 779-0092.  May the 7th is my husband's
    birthday and we may be out to dinner, but not to worry because I
    will undoubtedly have my beeper on me. 8^) 8^) 8^)
    
    I am particularly good at skimming through health manuals in a frantic
    effort to find the one sentence of information that will save the
    day.  I have the ability to complete sentences under extreme pressure,
    and my pronunciation is superb! (ie PUSH!!!!!!)
    
    When you are down on all fours with your head and shoulders in the
    small confines of a birthing box, you need someone else to hold
    the books and flip the pages.  I'm available....
    
    8^) Jo Ann

    I *just* found out that we'll be expecting TWO litters a bit
    closer together than I had thought!  We were calmly waiting
    for Tag-Along to come back into heat because she didn't seem
    to have gotten pregnant while she was shacked up with
    Quicksilver...but alas, all was quiet.
    
    Because she was already pregnant!  (Nutmeg was very vocal
    when she was in heat, but Tag was never so obvious, so it
    was more difficult to tell what was, or was not, happening.)
    
    So, there are LOTS of teeny tiny Russian Blues expected in
    the next several weeks.
    
    Now I've got to retrieve Tag from New Jersey pronto!
    We may arrange to get her brought to the RI show next week.
    
    

    Congratulations to you and Tag-A-Long.  Once again she has proven
    that you picked the perfect name for her!  Remember, I will be
    available to midwife any and all expectant kitties! 8^)
    Jo

    RE:.14
    
    Well, Penelope, it has been a hard struggle for you and your girls.
    It was the same way with my first litter.  Figured she was preggers,
    but she came into heat the day she was due!  I was one sad kitty
    owner.  All came out well in the end, however.  I just know that's what
    it'll be for you!  Now remember, I managed to bore my fellow noters
    silly with my storys of how chubby, and how excited and all.  Don't
    let us down, now.  We want to hear every teeny weeny little detail.
    
    And - while I am on the subject . . .
    
    My two are doing great!!  I have some SUPER news.  The little boy
    kitty has found a new and wonderful family.  In fact the family found
    out about my guys right here on "FELINE".  They had very recently
    lost their long lived and long loved Abyssinian red male.  They
    had him over at Tufts where a valient effort was made.  No pet can
    live forever, however and they wanted an Abby ASAP.   I found it
    very interesting that they wanted a Ruddy this time.  They wanted
    the same sort of cat, but they wanted to be sure that they weren't
    going to be trying to "replace" their red male.  I know the feeling.
    It was just last August that I lost my 20 year old gray kitty. 
    I wasn't ready to do a direct replacement - I needed more time.
    Since then I have decided that I will always have a gray kitty
    (right Penelope?).  Anyhow -  when these people came to visit - 
    It was love at first sght - on everyone's part.  Husband, wife and 
    little girl (young woman?) came over to take a peek at my two. 
    I love knowing that I'll probably keep a bit of contact with these
    peopel and hear about the little guy for years to come.  They want
    to visit at least once more before they can take him home.  They
    were sorry they didn't bring a camera.  I bet they will next time.
    
    We only briefly spoke of this notes file.  She was new to it.  Mary,
    if you're reading the file - c'mon and introduce yourself.  I figure
    it should be left up to you to make yourself known.
    
    Marion
    

    Nutmeg had a final check at the vet last night:  because she is
    a "delicate" cat (read that "looks too small to be a mother; what's
    with these adolescent pregnancies, anyway?" ;-)) we got an X-ray
    to check that her pelvic bones were spaced wide enough.  Glad to
    say the report is "no problem!".  
    
    And I saw pictures of the little babies!!!  Won't tell how many
    'til after delivery, to see how how they (yes, more than one!)
    all do.  And now I will also know when they are all "out," so
    that human as well as mother can relax.
    
    Meanwhile, Marion, you have whetted my appetite with that ADORABLE
    picture of one of your teeny tiny Ruddies.  How old is he/she?
    (Not very, I'd guess.)  It is sooooooooo cute.  Got to get about
    100 rolls of film real fast, I guess!
    
    This is a real turnabout:  while they took Nutmeg to be x-rayed,
    I suddenly realized that for a change, I felt like an expectant
    *father* rather than mother!  Last time I went through this
    pregancy stuff, they couldn't do anything without *me*.
    
    	P     
    

    Glad to hear all is well with Nutmeg....it's getting real close
    now!!!  Have you picked up Tag yet???   
    
    Well, spring is the time for little kittens, right....Xotie's pregnant
    too!!!  So, now I have a question....what color kittens do you get
    when you breed a Brown Mackrel Tabby Exotic SH to a Red Classic
    Tabby Persian......hmmmmm, should be interesting!!  
    
    Actually, folks, I'm a little worried about this litter....Xotie
    didn't do such a good job last time, so keep your fingers crossed
    for her this time.  She's due on June 5th....at least it's a weekend!
    
    stayin' calm!
    cin
    

    Cin,
    
    Can you describe the parents on both sides as well? For example,
    is your SH a homozygote or Heterozygote? What were the parents colors,
    and if possible, anysibling colors from the litter.
    
    Given that, I'll take a shot at it.
    
    Dave

    Okay, here goes....Xotie is Brown Mackrel Tabby....I have had trouble
    showing her, many of the judges have questioned her color, suggesting
    that she maybe a golden, rather than a brown....she's got copper
    eyes and no silvers/goldens in at least 3 generations....here's
    what I do know...
    
    Her mother was a Blue Patched Mackrel Tabby Shorthair, born from
    a Red Persian bred to a Blue Tabby Exotic.
    
    Her father was a Brown Mackrel Tabby Shorthair, born from a Red
    Mackrel Tabby Exotic bred to a Brown Patched Tabby Exotic.
    
    Fire, the father of this litter is a Red Classic Tabby
    
    His father was a solid Red Persian born from a Black and a
    Tortoiseshell.
    His mother was a tortoiseshell born from a Black and a Red Persian.
    
    There isn't even a tabby in his pedigree till the 4th generation!
    
    I believe genetically Fire may be a solid, since he has produced
    very few tabby kittens.  The tabby kittens he has produced were
    born of Tabby females.  
    
    I will admit to not being very familiar with genetics....I bought
    the Exotic Shorthair because she stole my heart!!!  I didn't give
    much thought to what I would get for kittens, just knew that the
    lines worked together from past experience.
    
    Last time Xotie had 2 kittens....one looked to be a blue cream,
    or maybe a blue patched tabby....not really sure, the other was
    a Tortie....both were females....they lived less than 48 hours,
    so I wasn't sure if they were long or short haired.
    
    Actually, color isn't important to me, just curious on what the
    possibilities would be.  What would be my best bet for color breeding
    if I wanted to get more brown tabbys??
    
    cin
    

    okay, first glance.  I'll run this through my expert system when
    I get home.
    
    female kittens :
    1 LH to 3 SH are possible, more likely all SH (sh is dominant)
    colors : tortoiseshell /blue creams (since Xotie seems to carry
    		dilute gene, would also explain her color)
    	     Torbie (patched tabby)/ blue cream torbie
    	     Brown tabby (possible poor color)
    		probably mackeral, possibly broken mackeral
    		some chance of classic, not likely
    		clean mackeral possible
    
    male kittens
    same ratio of SH/LH
    colors :	Black/Blue
    		Brown tabby (possible poor color)
		probably mackeral, possibly broken mackeral
    		some chance of classic, not likely
    		clean mackeral possible
    
    Is Xotie a clean mackeral pattern or broken? If broken, chance of
    solids is quite good, if solid, tabbies chances good.
    
    How's this for a guess?
    Dave

    Xotie is not a well marked Mackrel Tabby.  She could almost be
    considered a Spotted Tabby, but those aren't accepted!!!  She had
    the color problems as a kitten, but I had expected them to disappear
    with age, but she's almost 3 now!!!  She was probably a poor
    "investment", but I love her anyway....she's a nutty cat!!  
    
    The other kittens in her litter were:
    
    1 Blue Patched Tabby Female
    1 Black male
    1 Brown Tabby Male
    
    Thanks for the info....Sure looks like I could get a whole array
    of weird colors!!!  This will be fun!!!
    
    cin
    

    And Xotie is just GORGEOUS!

      Help! I am really confused.  What do you consider a mixed-breed
    versus a purebred cat?  Is it allowed to show cross-bred cats?
    Is tabby a breed in itself, and any of the colors, patterns, different
    hairlengths can be bred?
    	A Novice

    Well, I can see where all this can be confusing....
    
    First of all a Tabby is not a breed, nor is it a color....it is
    a color pattern.  A mackrel tabby will be the type will stripes
    all over the body, where a classic tabby will have a bullseye pattern.
    
    Each breed has a series of colors and color patterns that are allowed
    for registration.  There is no breed that comes in both LH and SH
    (as far as I know!).  
    
    Certain breeds are natural breeds, such as Persians, Siamese, Birmans,
    and Maine Coons (There are many more!), while other breeds are Manmade,
    such as Himalayans, Exotic Shorthairs and Oriental Shorthairs.
    
    Many of the manmade breeds still allow Hybridization which is breeding
    back to one of the component breeds used to originally produce the
    Breed.  For example....the Exotic SH was originally produced by
    breeding an American Shorthair to a Persian.  This produced a
    shorthaired cat with the Persian head and body style.  Since with
    an Exotic SH the goal is a SH cat with a persian head and body style,
    the shorthaired cats are then bred back with persian to set the
    style.  
    
    Whether you can show the offspring of the hybridization depends
    on the Association.  This differs from one association to the other.
    In some Associations, the Longhaired offspring of the above breeding
    could be shown as a persian, in other associations it would have
    to be shown as an AOV (All Other Variety) because it would be
    considered a Long Haired Exotic Shorthair.
    
    Yes, this is all very confusing....maybe someone else can explain
    it better!!!
    
    cin
    

    There are examples of LH/SH of the same cats. Cymric is a longhair
    Manx, for example. The American Curl is campaigning for acceptance
    in both LH and SH varieties.  Where they are judged varies from
    association to association.
    
    Crossbred cats, if you are referring to household pets (alley cats)
    are technically called freebred.  These are not acceptable in
    established breeds where the stud book is closed, but allowable
    in open books.  In Maine coons, the stud book closed in 1981, I
    think.  If by crossbreeds you mean deliberate crossing of purebred
    cats, some breeds are almost always crosses.  Manx, for instance,
    is usually a cross with american shorthair or something else, as
    the homozygote manx gene is invariably fatal.
    
    Dave

    So breeding a persian to an exotic shorthair is going to create
    kittens that are registerable ( somewhere )?  It seems like sometimes
    you can have kittens from the same parents registered as different
    breeds?  Like however they turn out determines what type of cat
    they are.  This is a novel idea to me, but I'm sure some beautiful
    varieties have been created.
      Linda

    Yup...with the Exotic/Persian cross, the SH kittens will all be
    registerable in any association as Exotic Shorthairs.  The LH kittens
    will be registered as AOV's in some Associations and Persians in
    others.   Two breeds in the same litter!!!
    
    Never thought of it this way!
    
    cin
    

    Tag and I just returned from the vet, and sure enough, we are
    expecting 2 litters 10-12 days apart.  Whee!  I think that timing
    is just great.
    
    We got an xray of Tag, and I am really glad.  She has one fetus
    positioned laterally just above the birth canal, effectively 
    blocking it for self and others.  We plan to get another picture
    a few days before she is due, and hope that the position has
    changed, but the vet said that the positions don't often change
    that drastically at the very end of pregnancy.  So we will check
    the progress.  I guess this means we might have a planned C-section,
    which I would much prefer to a last minute emergency because we
    didn't know there was a problem.
    
    Nutmeg, on the other hand ("in the other uterus"???), has all
    babies positioned head down, ready to go!
    
    And when I returned to the waiting room to wait while Tag was
    xray, there was a laundry basket full of 8 week old kittens!
    SOOO CUTE.  I can't wait!   (But I guess I have to.)
    
    	Penelope

    It's okay to x-ray a pregnant cat???
    
    You shouldn't x-ray pregnant women I thought?
    
    Donna

    Right you are!  It is okay after all the limbs, organs, etc. are
    formed -- as is the case shortly before birth.  One would NOT
    want to x-ray while the embryo is still developing!!!  Not for
    humans, not for cats.  
    
    	P

    Nutmeg had three little boys last night...with a little help from
    the vet at about 2am (with yours truly assisting, gasp!).  The first
    two were born with great ease earlier in the evening.  Much earlier.
    Then there was one stillbirth.  And then Nutmeg settled in to nurse
    the two cuties with lots of purring and licking.  Thank goodness
    I had had the xray taken:  I knew there was another in there.  So
    at 11, after several phone calls, all were loaded into the car to
    meet the vet.  He gave her several shots of oxytocin (which *should*
    cause strong uterine contractions, the way it worked with Toastie,
    right, Marion?).  But nnnoooooo.  Nothing.  Absolutely nothing.
    And so from 2-3 am, we had surgery:  it took only 5 minutes to get
    the other little one out, and my main job was to play "mom" (yes,
    I did ask, in jest, if I was supposed to lick the kitten, and I
    did in reality do some "heavy breathing" on him while I was drying
    him off and clearing his face, nose, mouth, etc., *anything* to
    keep him warm), and then we put him in the incubator with his
    brothers 'til Real Mom was ready.
    
    Nutmeg was spayed at the same time.  The vet said that this particular
    type of problem was very likely to recur at any future deliveries.
    I didn't want to put her through that again -- or myself!  I feel
    very fortunate that there are 3 healthy little ones with her right
    now!
    
    That means I'll have to find a home for her, which is sad.  But
    I have limited space, and already have 2 spays (9 year olds).  I'm
    not going to get this breeding program off the ground with a
    household full of spays!  She developed into a beautiful cat while
    she was pregnant.  I had hoped for a daughter like her...
    
    Maybe Tag-Along will present us with a female or two next week?
    
    	Penelope, Cosette, Fantine, Tag-Along, Nutmeg, and B1, B2, B3
    
    	:^)

    Penelope - I am happy for you and the three kittens, and deeply
    saddened because of the complications for Nutmeg.  I understand
    how you feel about having a household full of spays and no room
    for breeding cats.  I have often thought about the same thing myself.
    I have three cats that are neutered and my numbers are increasing
    all the time. (two new kittens just purchased from the east coast
    brings our cat household up to six!!!)
    
    I know it will be hard to part with Nutmeg, but you will find her
    a good home where she will be loved and cared for.  And perhaps
    Tag will present you with a nice little female kitten that you can
    keep.
    
    Jo Ann

    
    
    Congratulations to Nutmeg and Penelope!
    
    C.
    

    Congratulations!! Hope the family is doing well...
    
    J.
    

    B1, B2, and B3 are growing by leaps and bounds.  Well, by ounces,
    anyway.  I guess we are a couple of weeks away from the leaps and
    bounds.
    
    They went from 4 ounces to almost 7 from Saturday to Tuesday.
    They *looked* bigger!
    
    I am still in awe -- and each time I pick them up for a little
    cuddle, I am amazed at how CUTE they are.
    
    The first set of pictures have been developed, and I'll pick them
    up ASAP.  I might end up with a bigger baby album than I had for
    my children.  (Well, almost as big, anyway.)
    
    	P
    

    Tag-Along had 4 kittens last night!  (A REAL surprise because 2
    vets had looked at 4 x-rays taken from different angles, and we
    were expecting 3 kittens!)  After the 3rd was born there were
    still contractions.  I figured that must just be the uterus
    getting smaller and stopping any blood flow...but then there
    was a strange THING that began to appear.  A FOOT.  And then
    kitten #4.
    
    But...I think they are all boys again!  Oh dear.  Both litters
    are gorgeous and silvery (do the first ones ever look huge now!),
    but I can't *breed* any of them.  And that was the whole point of
    these two litters:  to get 1 or 2 little females to keep, show,
    and breed again.
    
    I can't wait to get some pictures with the two litters together;
    the size difference is so dramatic, with just 15 days between
    birthdates.
    
    	P   :^)  :^)  :^)  :^) .........

    Penelope,
    
    Congratulations!  Perhaps it was just in the cards that you should
    run a stud service instead of a cattery!  I bet you'll get *plenty*
    of help from us noters in placeing some of your sweet little boys. 
    in fact I might consider one myself!
    
    Marion
    
    PS  Perhaps the 4th little guy sort of snuck in when you and Tag
    weren't looking! 8^D

    Congrads! What more can I say?
    
    Bryan

    Congratulation Penny!
    I'm really happy that your litter arrived safely.
    I hope that somehow you still get your little girl, it is
    hard to tell sometimes.
    
    I saw B1, B2, and B3 when I was "Traveling to see the Kitties"
    last week and they were just darling.  Only problem with them
    was trying to tell them appart. (I don't have that with Perisans.)
    
    Have fun!
    
    Debbie
    

    You know, it can be difficult telling kittens apart.  When we had
    abys, we would color (with food coloring) one claw on the right
    foot, a differrent color for each kitten.  It was almost the only
    way to tell them apart for the first 6-8 weeks.
    
    Dave

    Dave, 
    What a good idea.  I was most concerned about the identification
    problem when I thought the two litters would be about 1 day apart.
    I had thought about having a "red-dot-inside-ear" vs a "blue-dot-
    inside-ear" but was concerned about permanent markers being toxic
    (to baby or to mother who would try to lick it off) and something
    like food coloring getting licked off right away.
    
    Does it last a few days?  If so, I would love to have a way to know
    which one is "really" "B1" etc.
    
    Meanwhile, B1-3 look absolutely monstrous compared to the new babes.
    It is SO nice to have them look me directly in the eyes.  They almost
    look like kittens now!  (As newborns, they reminded me more of a
    miniature cross between a sheep and a piglet, but I won't tell them
    that lest I hurt their feelings  :-)
    
    I am hand feeding one of the new ones, and am still prepared for
    the worst if he doesn't make it (that is the breech, and it took
    me a lot of work to revive him after he was born).  At least I will
    know that I tried everything (yes, even every 1-2 hours through
    the night, yawn) to save him.  The vet says it is definitely worth
    trying, but not guaranteed.
    
    I want to thank everyone who offered suggestions on supplies and
    strategies:  I made good use of several of each, and they were
    invaluable.
    
    	Penelope and B1 through B7
    	         and Nutmeg and Tag
    		 and Aunts Cosette and Fantine (who don't understand
                     why they are frequently banished to the back
    		     rooms these days)

    it lasts a few weeks... it may fade, but doesn't go away until the
    nail sheds.
    
    dave

    The boys are giving me so much pleasure!  B1, B2, and B3 are wide-eyed
    and full of curiousity now.  They tumble out of their bed, and then
    stare up with a "now what do I do?" expression.  They have even
    given an occasion hiss -- never thought I would call a hiss "cute"
    but these are!  (cute, comical, or both, actually)
    
    B's 4-7 are doing fine.  I was worried about the breech at first,
    but after nights of hand feeding, he is now more interested in Mom's
    milk than the KMR, and they all four now weigh almost the same.
    
    Both Nutmeg and Tag-Along have adjusted very well.  They are being
    such good mothers, and they will also have fun playing together
    when they take a break from their little ones.  But if anyone lets
    out a little squeal, both come charging over to investigate!
    
    I must admit that on occasional nights, in the wee hours, I wondered
    what in the world I was doing...and now I know.  I wouldn't trade
    these experiences for anything.  I just hope for a female next time...
    I might be able to "lease" a female (an older, proven breeder) for
    one more litter this year, in hopes of a little girl I can keep,
    show, and begin breeding next year.  
    
    	Penelope et toutes les chats

    Re .21 (yes, I know, slow reaction, but I've been away for a few
    weeks...)
    
    Were you for real, Dave, with your comment about running the genetic
    details through your "expert system"?? It sounds an interesting
    possible application for AI!
    
    SLP

    
    Yep,
    
    In teaching my AI course, I developed a system to give estimates
    based on parent, grandparent, and gr-gr-parent colors, and the sibling
    colors of the parents.  I'm trying to work in a set of rules to
    take notice of other kittens that may have come out of past breedings
    of the same parents (not necessarily to each other).
    
    It was fun, and is fairly accurate.  If I can ever get a week of
    solvig pfleuger's time, I'd like to expand it out to other breeds
    than just standard cats (like maine coons and persians, you know,
    those other cats).
    
    Dave

    Re -1
    
    Dave, that sounds fascinating! Is this a "demoable" system? If so,
    I would be REALLY grateful for a copy. Everyone likes cats, so it
    could make a great demo for my AI prospects!
    
    RJP

    it currently runs on an IBM-PC under some strange shell I picked
    up somewhere.  I'm trying to get the AI group to cough up a workable
    copy of NEXPERT/OBJECT and rewrite it to that.  If so, I'll release
    it for use.
    
    Dave

    re -1, thanks, Dave, will look forward to it!

    Well, gang, my fiance and I gathered up all our courage last weekend
    and headed out for the big city where Penelope and the now famous
    Teeny Tiny Russian Blues live.  I have got to tell you, they are
    *georgous*.  They have the sweetest little faces and the most darling
    little eyes.  Their coats are so fluffy and soft and I have never
    seen more silvery kittens.  They are a real reminder that the _real_
    old time saying is "happyness is a warm _kitten_"!  Good going Nutmet
    and Quicksilver (oh yeah, and you too, Penelope)!  Oh, by the way,
    did you say that you were going to sell some of those little guys???
    
    Marion
    

    re: .50
    
    B's 1-7 thank you.  They are feeling even prouder than usual!
    
    Some are spoken for -- some are still available.
    
    As you probably know, I will be selling all the males, and
    keeping all the females...there are none...sigh :-( .
    
    I am especially looking for someone to keep an intact male
    for me to have available for stud service.  Please let me
    know if you are interested -- there are a variety of arrangements
    we could make in terms of ownership, fees, showing, etc.
    
    
    And now I will add that Marion brought Toastie's little girl.
    She is an absolute sweetheart!  I am fighting with myself
    every night about whether I can justify adding a little Aby
    (a female, after all, and I can rationalize just about anything!)
    
    Is there really always room for one more???
    
    	P

    
    re .51
    
    ALWAYS!!!!!
    
    (IF I can decide to keep one of my orphaned kittens, you can certainly
    justify an aby.  EVERYONE should have an aby!)
    
    Dave

    agreed, everyone should have an aby.  in fact, take two, they're
    small :-)
    
    Rita
     who_is_Tiny_Tanya_Terrorist_Tawny_Aby_and_Sulkitt_Cast_In_Silver_half_
     Silver_Aby_half_Pewter_Mau's_mom
    
    

    Well, the results are in!!!  Or out, as the case may be!! :-)
    
    Xotie, my brown mackrel tabby exotic shorthair, delivered 2 babies
    on Sunday.  
    
    A brown classic tabby male - looks to be very well marked!
    A blue Mackrel tabby female - not as well marked!!
    
    I'm not sure if their going to be LH or SH yet, but my guess is
    I got one of each!!  
    
    I'll let you all know how they turn out...
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    Saturday was a very sad day.
    
    One of Tag's little boys (age 3 and 1/2 weeks) didn't make it.
    He had been born with a mild heart murmur.  There was a chance
    that it would "disappear" as he got older;  some do, if they are
    not too severe.  It got worse, rather suddenly, and within
    about three hours on Saturday morning, he began suffering 
    terribly.  The vets said that his condition had deteriorated
    so quickly that there was less than 1/100 chance of saving him,
    and even then we might not have a normal/healthy cat.
    
    1/100 is too much of a long shot for an animal in extreme
    distress, so... I cried while I held him as his discomfort
    was ended.  Such a little guy.
    
    I had an autopsy done, to verify the diagnosis, and to check
    if it was something else that might cause the others to be at
    risk.  Thank goodness for the rest, it was indeed heart failure
    that caused fluid in the lungs, and he couldn't have survived
    even with a painful fight.  Had all the others checked extra
    carefully for normal heart/lung functioning, and they seem
    fine to the vets and to me.
    
    Meanwhile, the happier news update:  Nutmeg's trio are 6 weeks
    old tomorrow, and are they ever busy dashing around the house
    and gobbling kitty gruel!  Tag's other three are beginning to
    wobble their ways around quite well.
    
    It is almost time for toenail painting:  I was surprised when
    I looked down earlier today, and *wasn't sure* which group this
    guy was from!  Once I found a "real" big guy, it was clear.  But
    from now on, they are going to be segregated or marked, that's for
    sure.
    
    They are SUCH FUN scampering about.  I love carrying a bunch of
    them together, while they look up at me [the ultimate food source?].
    
    	P

    
    
    Re: .55
    
    So sorry for the loss of your little one.
    
    Carole
    

    Introducing... 
    			Meowsky's Secret Princess
    
    One of Tag's "little boys" turned out to be a little girl!!!!!!!!
    
    I found this out last night when both litters and Moms were at
    the vet for checkups.  Nutmeg's boys got their first shots.  Two
    of them howled in dismay -- no one had ever caused them any pain
    or discomfort before...the fall from innocence?  The third one
    seemed not to notice that anything worse that instruments-stuck-
    into-ears had occurred.
    
    I'm SO happy to have a little girl I can KEEP and love!  Makes me
    feel closer to ALL the kittens.  I was sort of "holding back" because
    I didn't want to get too, too attached as all of them were going
    to have to "go" - or so I thought!
    
    	P

    Hurray for the little princess - it was going to be a fairly limited
    breeding program with all males in the house!  Glad to hear it worked
    out a little better than you had first thought...
    
    Jan  (the PKO person)
                 

    Love the name!!  It's perfect!  And I'm sorry to hear about the
    loss of one of the kittens.  One may have been taken away, but look
    what you gained.  To everything, there is a season.......
    
    I can just see the little pink ruffled dresses...
    
    Mary

    I am *SO PLEASED* for you.  It seems that your luck has finally
    changed.  I bet you have used up all the bad luck in kitties for
    years to come!  From now on it's smoth sailing for you and your
    gang, I am sure.  And what a great name - one with a story behind
    it.
    
    Marion
    
    

    Sorry about your loss. But great news about the female.
    
    Bryan