Conference misery::feline_v1

    Actually, the genetics of the situation indicate that a siamese/X
    cross will probably not be solid black unless the X is a homozygote
    self-colored black. The pointed gene (the ear/paw/tail coloring)
    is dominant, so the only way to mask that is if the body is the
    same color as the points.
    
    If you want to look for such a cat, try a siamese breeder that also
    raises burmese.  A cross between the black burmese and a siamese
    would possibly give you a solid black with the face/features of
    siamese, and such breed crosses are somewhat common in catteries
    that breed two (or more) breeds. (I myself have been gifted with
    a litter of abbycoons (abyssinian/maine coon cross)).
    
    Dave

    Thanks Dave,
    
    Although you lost me with the homozygote and such, but if I got
    the jist of it, if a siamese breeds with a black or semi-black cat
    then I have the chance of getting a black siamese.  OR, if I get
    a cross between a burmese and a siamese I'll get a black one.  
    
    Well, whatever it takes I want one and I would like to get it for
    November or December (Anniversary or Christmas).  SOOOOOO, I return
    my quest out to the members of FELINE.
    
    If anyone has or knows of a black siamese for sale or adoption please
    let me know.  I would prefer a male, but that is not an absolute.
    The only other criteria are that it be PURE BLACK and look siamese.
    If it has a "kink" in the tail, that's an added plus!
    
    Thanks for your help in advance.
    
    Laurel
    

    	What you want is called an Oriental Shorthair.  They come in
    all colors.  They are a registered breed.  I'll look around when
    I get home and see if I can find some breeders names and addresses
    that are local to you.  
    
    	I think OS are neat.  They have the siamese body and personality
    but I believe they tend to be healthier than Siamese because they
    have been crossbred with another breed to get the coloring you want. 
                                  
    	BTW most breeders don't consider the kinked tail a plus because
    it's a fault in the Siamese.  However if you like it, it's a plus
    for you because you're more likely to to get your OS for PET prices
    rather than Show prices.
    
    tlh
    

    Most half-siamese black cats have a few white hairs on their chests
    and/or tummies, like my kitty Nebula does.  I'm not interested in
    cat shows and so may not have accurate information on them, but
    I believe that a few white hairs disqualifies a "black" cat.  I
    think Neb is lovely.  Her mother was a seal-point, and she and her
    litter mates were for sale cheap ($10, including shots and worming)
    because her father was unknown.  She is a bit cross-eyed and has
    a kink in her tail (her mother had neither, I think).  If you get
    her in very bright sunlight (was she doesn't like; I guess she gets
    too hot), she is really very, very dark brown with black "points".
    She has an endearing personality (if you can take the voice!) and
    is much less shy with strangers than my spotted cat (The Fickle,
    real name JFCL), even though Neb is much smaller.

    About half the cats I've shared my life with have been black
    half-Siamese.  These are often excewptional cats.  One, Merlin,
    who is also half-Manx, is disturbingly intelligent (I love him deeply,
    but any cat who can figure out how to jimmy a spring-latched door
    is a cat to reckon with).  Both Nianinne (deceased) and Vivianne
    sport(ed) jet-black coats with a hint of red undertone in _very_
    strong sunlight.  They were both affectionate, gentle, and innocent.
    
    None of the blackies had a Siamese howl (we call Vivianne "squeak").
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
    (P.S.: Our current Siamese, Karamaneh, can be very vocal.  Sometimes
    my wife calls her "the banshee wagon."  Quite a contrast to the
    blackies.)
    

	Isn't the Bombay a cross between a Siamese and something?
        
    	Deb

    Black Siamese are really wonderful!  I had three at one time, and
    now have one.  Hotrail is the lovingest cat I have ever had, she
    loves to sleep on my pillow with her cheek resting against my cheek
    and her front leg draped across my neck...... the whole time purring
    loud enough to almost rattle the windows.  
    
    I have found with my Blacks that they have a tendency to pick one
    person in the family that they call their own, but they are friendly
    to everyone.  Hotrail will sleep or sit with everyone in the family,
    but if I am in the room, it is me she prefers, even if she is already
    sitting with someone else she will get up and come to me.
    
    We had one that use to fight all the other cats for my husbands
    lap, and the third one adopted my daughter.
    
    If I could find another Black I would take it home in a minute,
    I was adopted by mine in Colorado.
    
    M-L

    The Oriental Shorthair sounds absolutely perfect.  I am terribly
    allergic to cats (I know I have _6_), and a shorthair would be ideal,
    as I intend to make this one a house cat.  Both my male (he's a
    stray that adopted us when our female, Taffy, was in heat - thus we
    call him Stud) and our female (tiger/calico long hair) are outdoors
    cats and live in the fields - except at supper time.  I would like a 
    cat that's a little homier and affectionate.
    
    I realize that siamese "talk" but that's what I love about the breed
    they have "PERSONALITY".  If the Oriental Shorthairs have a voice
    & a kink I'd love one!  I'm kind of glad the kink is a flaw, since
    I'm not in the market for a show cat, hopefully _XXXX_ I'll get
    one for a good price.
    
    Thanks for all the input and please keep the responses coming...
    
    
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   	 	ONLY 121 DAYS TILL CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

   
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    I never knew that there so many black-siamese lovers! My very first
    cat was a black-siamese and I still have her son - now 16 whose
    father was a black cat with double paws on all four feet. (Mo just
    has them on his front feet, but is very good at cupboard opening.)
    My first cat got me interested in cat genetics and I have tried
    to get cats of unusual background when ever I did the picking -
    rather than the cat picking me (as happens most of the time.)
    We currently have 3 black cats, two with double paws but none
    with siamese parents.
                                                                 

    Re .8:
    
    ...And only 65 days until Hallowe'en.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    I always keep Nebula inside (no rambling around even with us to
    watch her) for several days on either side of Halloween.  You just
    never know what sorts of unsavory things might occur to someone
    to do.
    
    It's funny that there are still people around who are AFRAID of
    black cats, too.  One day when Neb was "helping" me weed the lily
    bed in front of the house, she wandered in front of some small child
    who was walking down the sidewalk.  The child hollers "Oh, a black
    cat!  Is she BAD LUCK??" and begins to wail (kid must have been
    all of four years old).  Someone had drummed that particular
    superstition into that little girl... I managed to convince her
    that Neb was a sweetheart and not an omen after all.

    Re .11:
    
    My blackies are inside cats, so they'd never be out at Hallowe'en
    anyway.  (I'm not getting into the indoor-versus-outdoor argument
    here.)  But they seem to enjoy the holiday anyway.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    I am really happy that you are all the proud owners of black cats
    and that Halloween is the favoured holiday, but it doesn't help
    my situation  - -  (that's a pout!).  That is unless of course you
    		   ^
    are offering me your cats and in that case, if they're siamese I'll
    take them.  I'm just worried that they may not adjust well to a
    new home at this stafe of the game.
    
    Of course, if you aren't offering me your cats and you don't know
    of any black siamese, then why are you torturing me!!! <WHINE>
    
    Seriously, though, I have not had too many responses about where
    to get one.  A lot of people (ex .2) have been very helpful with
    "classifying" and clarifying what I want, but to date, no breeders
    or even leads.
    
    PLEASE, I want to surprise my hubby with this kitty and I really
    do need all of your help.
    
    I will keep you posted if I find anything "outside".
    
    In the meantime, I'm still looking.
    
    Thanks for all the help so far
    
    Laurel
    

    re .13:
    
    I obtained two of my blackies from the Massachusetts SPCA in Boston.
    The third I got from my vet in Huntsville, Alabama, who was trying
    to place them.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    I got Neb at the Doctor Pet in Shoppers World in Framingham.  She
    and her litter mates were there because daddy was an alley cat.

    I can give you names of several breeders, but they are almost all
    located in Texas.
    
    Because of the genetics involved, you will find a fair number of
    such cats as "alley cats" (otherwise called freebred (vs purebred))
    
    If I can locate my copy, I'll list the breeders in that area.
    
    Dave

    I 've had 4 cats, all of them black, and all of them free from
    local ads or people giving away unexpected litters.  My current
    two are a longhair (space cadet) and a 1/2 siamese (Black Sabbath)
    Sabbath's mother was a black 3/4 siamese w/triple paws. I got sabbath
    and his brother (a long hair w/double paws) 4 years ago.  Sabbath
    is very vocal and loud (like a Siamese) and he is very intelligent.
    He follows me around everywhere, and even wants me to go outside
    and play with him like a dog (fetch sticks, play chase etc.)  I'd
    suggest looking in your local paper and the Want Advertiser and
    make some calls.  You never know what you might find.  I hope to
    find a black long hair with blue eyes and double paws (someday).
    Good Luck-   Julie  

    I too got mine at Shoppers World in Framingham.

    Re blue eyes in a non-siamese cat. A man I worked with over 17 years
    ago who was a professor of genetics at Harvard and specialized in
    cats told me that it is genetically impossible for a siamese to
    pass blue eyes on to offspring if it is mated with a non-blue eyed
    non-siamese type cat. Has anyone ever seen a cat of siamese ancestery
    that retained the blue-eyes?  Bonnie

RE:	Oriental Shorthair breeder

	MY FUN Cattery
	Virginia Hokenstrom
	10 Hillcrest Road
	Litchfield, NH  03051
	603-432-5237

Give Virginia a call (but not this weekend, she's showing up in Canada), 
and if she doesn't have what you're looking for, she'll probably know who 
might.  All them OSH breeders know each other.

Yep, a tail fault(kink) disqualifies a cat from being shown, and therefore 
it goes at pet prices.

RE:	Burmese to Siamese cross

If you do this, you'll get a first generation Tonkinese.  The kittens will
be pointed (not black), but the coat color will be lots darker than the
Siamese. 

Ray_who_breeds_and_shows_Tonks

    There's a show coming at the Keefe Vocational Tech School in Framingham
    on 27 Sep, and you'll be able to meet lots of OSH breeders there,
    including Virginia - the breeder i got my seal pt boys from should be
    there, too - Joyce Bickford (i'd personally buy from Joyce over Virginia)
    - i met a little blue OSH boy that Joyce was selling at a previous show
    - he DID have a kinked tail, and was probably the most responsive,
    outgoing, sensuous little fellow i've ever met! - my husband almost had
    to physically restrain me to keep me from buying him! 

    anyhow, ebony OSH seem to be getting quite popular at shows, and you'll
    be able to get lots of info at a show...

    	Didn't mean to tease you by entering the classification and
    no breeders names.  I went on several days of vacation right after
    entering that note.  I'll try to remember to look up the names and
    addresses tonight. 
    
    	As for the blue eye being passed on...
    
    	When I volunteered at the Greenville Animal shelter a few years
    ago, I saw a cat who was a siamese/?.  He was deep blue gray with
    Blue eyes and the Siamese voice.  Beautiful cat!   
    
    tlh
    

    Sorry I can't help you with breeders, Laurel, (wrong hemisphere)
    but hope you can bear with a few vaguely genetic comments:
    
    - Since you seem to want a Siamese-looking cat that happens to be
    black, go for an Oriental Shorthair rather than a Siamese/unknown
    cross if possible, as the body type in the unknown cross may not
    be Siamese type (see Tracy's info. in note .3)
    
    - Re .1 - there is no such thing as a Black Burmese - the darkest
    colour is Seal, which is a dark brown. American Seal Burmese are
    much darker than those in the rest of the world (as well as 
    having a different body type), but they are still considered brown,
    not black.
            - Tonkinese ( a cross between a Burmese and a Siamese) are
    darker than Siamese but paler than Burmese
            - "Abbycoons" sound fantastic... Do they have the coat/type
    of a Maine Coon with an Abyssinian's ticking? Please describe, in
    a new note if necessary (sorry for the digression, but we have an
    Abyssinian, and are fascinated by the descriptions of Maine Coons,
    which don't exist in NZ)
    
    - Re .6 - a Bombay is a cross between a Burmese and an American
    Shorthair, and apparently has a short, sleek, fine black coat, and
    a body type between that of its parents.
    
    
    Good luck with your search
    
    considered brown rather than black

    Well, I think I have decided that the Oriental Shorthair is the
    way to go... Now to find one!  I love all cats, but I want a BLACK
    cat - ALL BLACK.  Stud, my black male, has some white hairs, that
    I have to put up with (if grecian formula is good enough for our
    president, how do you think my cat would feel about it? - just
    kidding).  It is really important to me that I get a pure black
    shorthaired cat.  If you know of any Oriental Shorthair breeders,
    please dig them up - I may resort to the good all want-advertiser!
    
    Thanks again for all the help and support.
    
    Laurel.
    

    Well, Laurel,
    
    Have you found a black OSH yet???
    
    If not, I can probably provide more breeders names, but as Ray Fusci
    said, Virginia Hokenstrom can probably give you good leads.  She's
    a wonderful woman to talk to, even if you don't decide to buy fromm
    her.
    
    cin....a persian/exotic shorthair breeder
    

Keep an eye out on the local "free kittens", too.  Schmedley is half-Siamese
and was obtained that way.  He has a white spot on his chest, though (his
mother was nearly all white) The family pet Bradley is also half-siamese
half alleycat and all black.  (actually he's really a tiger cat - very dark
brown and black stripes, he has to be in bright sunlight to see this)
Both have the Siamese looks and personalities (can't shut them up, either)
and make excellent pets.  Both have green eyes, not blue.

-Mike

    Well, here I am.  I thought I had it.  I was GIVEN a black siamese,
    and she was beautiful.  Unfortunately, she seems to be a one person
    cat and did not adjust well to our home, so the original owners
    took her back.  Needless to say I am still looking.  
    
    Another bone in the soup is that on Monday, we had to find a home
    for our German Shepherd (two big dogs was taking it's toll on us)
    - which we were able to do quite easily, and then MY black male,
    Stud, disappeared.  I haven't seen him since Monday morning when
    he went out for his morning sabbatical and I'm just heartsick. 
    I would love to get another cat right away, but to make matters
    even worse, I am in the process of sending our 4 new kittens to
    their new homes (these were promised out over a month ago).
    
    I am terribly depressed about this entire situation, and I really
    couldn't deal with getting another cat at this point.  Please keep
    me in mind however and hopefully in a few weeks I'll be past my
    crisis points and will be actively looking again.
    
    Thanks again for all the input and suggestions.
    
    Laurel.

    I thought I would drop a quick line to let everyone know that Stud
    came home!  He was awfully hungery, but other than that he doesn't
    seem the worse for wear.  Who says altered males don't roam?  Anyway,
    it also seems like the Black Siamese that we were given is going
    to work out after all.  She was having a little trouble knowing
    where to deposit her waste material, but I believe we have convinced
    her that the litter box is a more acceptable place than my clothes!
    
    As for our kittens, seems that 2 of the four people who wanted them
    have decided not to take them, so now I have a houseful.  If anyone
    out there is interested in a kitten, they are described below. 
    I think they're all females, but then again, I haven't checked too
    thoroughly.  All three have long hair and are VERY ACITVE.
    
    Temple - Charcoal grey tiger with black stripes.  She has
    		a white face with white socks.
    Thundercat - White with tan markings - she looks almost calico (if
    		she had another color!)
    Frosty - Cream colored with white stripes - she also has a white
    		face.

    *chuckle
    
    reminds me of a saying:  Be careful what you pray for; you might
    get it.
    
    Glad to hear Stud came back and that things are working out for
    your Black Siamese!
    
                Carol

    
    	This note was just what I was looking for. We have a young black
    cat that has the following features:
    
    Skinny, although he eats like it was his last meal ever
    Few white hairs on chin and belly
    Whines a lot when there's no-one around
    Has been found half-way up the curtains
    Face is more elongated than a normal mog, though not quite as much
      as a real Siamese, I think.

    	I think this marks him down as a Siamese/Mog cross of some sort,
    doesn't it ? Are there any other notable characteristics I could
    look for ?
    
    
    Trev