Conference misery::feline_v1

    first, i think its good that you're taking him to a specialist
    so soon - please let us know what happens -

    i believe i've heard that in people, it is NOT serious at all -
    if this is true, i'd be encouraged about trantor - 

    i had a cat who first showed signs of a probable congenital heart
    'problem' when he was 12 - he suddenly was having some trouble
    breathing, & i took him to an emergency clinic, where they drew
    off 16 ounces of fluid out of his lungs - he was in & out of the
    hospital for the rest of his life, which was only 1.5 months - he
    was on diaretics & digitalis, & the whole experience was the most
    painful ordeal i've ever experienced - BUT, this 'problem' was
    never said to be a murmer - also, i felt terrible guilt for not
    knowing that prumphrey was sick, but he just didn't show anything
    - often, by the time an animal shows signs, they may already be
    quite sick - but again, i didn't feel that my vet had acted quickly
    enough - he had prumphrey for several days before he sent blood out
    for organ screening - 

    i hope i didn't totally discourage you!  actually what my vet had
    mentioned was 'weak heart muscle', which i believe is very different
    from a murmer - good luck ...
                                            karen    

    I'm not sure how (or if) this relates, but people can have heart
    murmurs with little to no effect on their lives. My sister has had
    one most (maybe all) her life with no problems or side effects.
    Again, this may not be the same for cats, and here may be different
    degrees, but I hope that it works out to be insignificant for you
    (the cat actually).
        Good Luck! (Just wanted to get my $.02 in...)
    
        Tom

    Thanks for the kind words.  I appreciate it.
    
    The results of our visit to the cardiac specialist: 

    Trantor has a thickening of the left ventricle of the heart.  The
    thickened wall muscles are preventing his heart from expanding
    normally.  The Left Atrium is also expanding due to the increase
    pressure on the heart.  This thickening is genetic but noone knows what
    triggers it. 

    In young cats it is "real bad news".  In older cats it can be treated
    successfully.  But, the success rate is very very very variable. 

    Left unchecked, the blood would not be pumped properly and blot clots
    would form in the heart (by a process that was described to me but is
    way too long to type in).  If they broke off, they would travel
    downstream and paralyze his legs or kill him.  They warning signs that
    something is up are (a) shortness of breath, and (b) paralysis.  The
    latter symptom is the last symptom before death, usually. The heart
    murmur aspect of it is caused by the extra work being done by the
    mitral valve, which is between the left ventricle and the left atrium.
    The bottom line is that we are fortunate to have had this caught so
    early by our regular vet.

    Two drugs are being prescribed at this time.  Drug a will relax his
    heart muscles and allow them to expand and contract more easily. Drug b
    is a mild anti-coagulant that will lessen the chances of a blot clot
    problem. 

    The odds on all of this are unclear.  When we return to Massachusetts
    in August we will have to contact either Tufts or a cardiac guy he will
    recommend to me at the next visit.  We simply may be giving pills to
    Trantor and taking him to a specialist regularly for the next 70 years.
    It could be that simple --- he just can't tell right now. 

    He used ultrasound on Trantor.  Interesting device but it required the
    shaving of some fur.  Trantor was not amused by all this but refrained
    from killing him.

    >The bottem line here is that we are fortunate to have had this caught
    >so early by our regular vet.
    
    Just goes to show the importance of regular checkups.
    
    I'm sure everything wil turn out well for Trantor, and I hope he
    enjoys his vacation.
    
    Deb
    
    P.S. Didn't we work togeather at an OEM in N.Andover a number of
         years ago?
    

    
      I have Dachshund (I know it's the wrong conf...) named Rudi that
    was just recently diagnosed with a murmur. My vet told me to watch
    him for a chronic cough...which i've never heard him cough at all..
      He said his murmur was not very bad, and that even if it gets
    worse, medication can control all but very severe cases. I don't
    know what differences...if any...there would be between dogs, cats,
    and humand...but suspect some similaritys do exist. My "Rue" is
    doing fine so far...Hope it continues for him and Trantor indefinitely.
    JM

    It turns out that a murmur can be either the problem itself (spastic
    nerve ending somewhere?) or symptomatic.  The latter is Trantor's
    situation.
    
    Trantor's murmur is a symptom of the thickening of the heart wall.  The
    murmur results from the mitral valve (heh you become an expert in these
    things quickly when the need arises) being overworked and/or
    experiencing backpressure in the left-side chamber of the heart. 
    
    Status: the murmur is gone!  The medication is doing its stuff after
    only 5 days.  Of course, the heart disease is still there, i.e. the
    relaxation of the heart muscles doesn't cure the thickening itself.
    The hope is that it won't get worse. 

    BTW.   I am suspicious of the advice that you should watch for
    coughing... the specific data I received from Trantor's cardiologist is
    that by the time external symptoms arrive it is frequently TOO LATE.
    My personal advice is that you have a cardiologist check it NOW
    (they'll use ultrasound, no pain involved.). 
    
    Good luck.

    We've just moved back to Massachusetts and are going to take Trantor to
    see one of two cardiologists at Tufts/Grafton in a few days. 
    
    One is a "Dr. Pipers", and the other is a "Dr. Ross".  Both are
    cat, and possibly cat/dog/other-animal, cardiac specialists.
    Has anyone in this file heard of them??  Any past experiences out
    here that someone would be willing to share?
    
    (Trantor is doing fine.  The heart condition can never be cured
    but if it doesn't get any worse he will live till the ripe old age
    of 70 or 80.)

    thanks!
    
    j

    About a month ago, my cat was in for a distemper shot, and the vet
    detected an irregular heart beat.  He said this was worth keeping
    an eye on because cats have VERY regular heartbeats and any murmur
    should be checked out.  
    
    I brought her back 1 month later, and he could not find any
    irregularity, but will check her again in a month.  He said to be
    aware of any coughing (a sign of heart problem), paralysis of the
    hind legs or dizziness.  He said those are signs that a blood clot
    is in the blood stream.  
    
    He and other vets have noticed this problem in cats that tend to
    jump out of their skin at any loud sound or anything that moves.
    My cat is kind of spacy about things like that, if she's sleeping
    and the phone rings she practically has a heart-attack.  I can see
    how that might create a problem.  The vet said that they can sometimes
    give the cat asprin to thin the blood and lessen the chance of clots.
    
    Good luck with your cat, and I hope mine continues to show no signs
    of an irregular heart beat.

    Add our names to the list of affected cats (and people).  I took
    my cats in on Saturday for a health certificate for the annual
    household pet show in Hayward next week.  Jesse was diagnosed as
    having a heart murmur.
    
    He is over 13 years old.  We aren't exactly sure how old he really
    is since he was originally a stray.  I was very suprised to hear
    this news since he seems healthier than ever.
    
    We recently added a kitten to our household, and Jesse has taken
    this in stride.  I often find the two of them playing together.
    Before we got Jouissance, Jesse never played.  He spent all his
    time sleeping or grooming himself.  Now he is getting exercise chasing
    a kitten around all day.
    
    Is this heart murmur the kiss of death for my beloved kitty?  What
    happened to the other kitties in this file that had this problem?
    Did everything work out okay?
                                                                     
    JoAnn

    A heart murmur is nothing more than a sticky valve or more precisely,
    a fluttery valve. As the blood passes through the valve to the other
    chamber of the heart, the valve tissue flutters in the flow. Unless
    your cat has some other complicating problem, there is no reason
    for you to expect sudden death. I once had a wire haired terrier
    (that's a dog, not a cat) with a murmur since birth. Twelve years
    later, the heart was still murmuring while the dog was recovering
    from kidney failure after drinking antifreeze. In short, don't worry
    if that's the cat's only problem.
    

    Thank you very much for the reassurance.  I called the vet this
    morning to discuss this with him.  It has been on my mind since
    Saturday.  The vet that diagnosed the heart murmur is not the vet
    that I usually use.  He is new to the office and he specializes
    in cardiac stuff(?).  The nurse in the office mentioned that it
    was possible that Jesse might have had this murmur before but the
    other vet hadn't caught it since that wasn't his field of specialty.
    
    I still haven't heard back from the vet.  He will probably call
    later this afternoon.  I'll put in a new note if he does.
    
    For some reason I always thought that Jesse would live forever.
    He was very ill when I found him and I spent about six months nursing
    him back to health.  We have become very close since then and it
    breaks my heart to think I might lose him.  
    
    Sorry to have babbled like this- I hope you understand.
    
    JoAnn

    re: .10
    
    No, that's not the whole store.  Heart murmurs are symptomatic problems
    of one or more of the following:

     	weakening valves
    	shrinking valve tissue
    	abnormal blood pressure on either side of the valve
    	abornmal blood viscosity
    	abnormal blood flow (e.g., an unusual "twist" in the path of
    			     the artery or vein) 
    
    Any of the above can be present from birth and may be the "normal"
    state of affairs for a cat.  (Of course, they could be present from
    birth and be life-threatening also.)  The perception of murmurs
    developing with age as things begin to deteriorate internally is
    therefore only partly correct.
    
    Murmurs may also be caused by a change in diet.  If the blood's
    viscosity (thickness) is altered, a valve may have to suddenly start
    working harder. 

    Murmurs are rated on a 1--6 scale, using roman numerals. A class I or
    II murmur is no big deal.  A class III or IV murmur will usually get
    you referred to a specialist. 
        
    Another curve ball is that murmurs can come and go.  Doctor "a" may
    hear the murmur and send you off to specialist Doctor "b", who doesn't
    hear anything.  Murmurs can come and go on a second-by-second basis.
    (I.e., they can suddenly dissappear or occur, without warning.) 
    
    The last bit of info. I can give you is that canine/feline cardiology
    seems to be somewhat less developed than other vet medical areas.
    To boil down long conversations I had with cardiologists at Tufts,
    the bottom line is that this area is still based on a lot of hunches.
    
    
    re: .-1:
    

    You seem to be happy with the level of medical advice that you are
    getting.  Great!  But if you want to get another opinion, I reccommend
    Tufts in Grafton (Dr. Pipers or Dr. Jim Ross).  I have also heard
    that Angel Memorial in Boston (?) is good, but that is second-hand
    information.
    
    
    jdr    

    Well,
    
    It has been almost a month since Jesse's diagnosis.  I have not taken
    him back to the vet yet.  He is doing very well lately, not coughing
    or bloating up.  I would like to have all the tests done on him
    soon, but for financial reasons I may have to wait a little longer.
                                            
    I live out in California so I can't get to Tufts.  My vet did mention
    UC Davis as a possibility.  Before we take that step, my vet has
    to recommend Jesse, which he can't do until I have the tests performed.
    So for now, I wait and I watch.
    
    JoAnn

    What are you feeding him?  Hills makes a canned food ("Feline hd") (Do
    all their foods end in the letter "d"??) that is for cats with certain
    types of heart conditions.  Trantor's been on it for a few months
    now.

    I have been feeding him c/d for the last two and a half years. 
    I will have to ask my vet if he should be on h/d.  I had never heard
    of it before.  A good friend and animal technician has promised
    to look him over for me at the next show.  While I realize that
    she is not a vet and doesn't have the training that a vet has, I
    feel that there are benefits to having her check him out for me.
    At least that way I will know if he needs real vet attention right
    away.  The whole thing has me spooked since there weren't any symptoms
    to warn me that he was sick.  I am in a tight money situation and
    can't afford all the tests right now.
    
    Jo Ann

    Another chapter in the heart murmur story...
    
    I took Jesse to a show in San Jose last weekend.  He was looking
    great and had been doing just fine health wise so I figured why
    not?  
    
    He gave me quite a scare while I was bathing him.  He suddenly just
    went limp on me in the tub!!  I thought I was going to have heart
    failure!  I took him out of the tub and wrapped him in a towel 
    (still soapy) and held him in my arms for about 15 minutes.
    
    He started acting better so I put him back in the tub and finished
    the bath.  
    
    I took him to the show anyway because I was afraid to leave him
    at home alone.  I wasn't going to put him in the rings but at the
    last minute decided to anyway.  He ended up placing in the top 
    5 in four out of six rings, coming in second place overall.
    
    When I was packing up my cages and things, I noticed an envelope
    in the cage with Jesse.  It was addressed "to Jesse James, do not
    throw away!"  I opened it up and there was $40.00 and a note saying
    it was for his heart murmur tests!  I have no idea who left the
    money in my cage!  I asked everyone I could think of if they had
    left the money.  Everyone denied knowing anything about it.  I have
    forty dollars of someone's money and don't know what to do with
    it.  I guess I will take him in for the tests.  I don't know who
    to thank for this gift of cash.  
    
    Jo

    Jo,
    
    What a heartwarming story of someone leaving the money with Jesse
    for his heart murmur tests!  (Must have been a feline noter???)
    
    By all means, have the tests done.  Jesse deserves it, and that
    is exactly what the donor wanted.
    
    This gives one a little extra faith in humanity after all...
    
    	Penelope

    
    Jo,
    
    Now you've gone and done it.  Here I sit in my "cube" all misty
    eyed.  It is really great to know that there are really people like
    that.  Not only are they helping you and your cat, but they are
    probably getting a real chuckle out of driving you crazy with wonder
    in such a nice way.
    
    Well - I guess I better blow my nose now!
    
    bye
    

    I agree.....
    
    It's nice to know that people still care....makes me feel all warm
    and fuzzy inside.  
    
    cin
    

    I just got off the phone with a woman from ACA Inc.  They are a
    non-profit organization that helps people in our area that can't
    afford spaying and neutering.  It was a shot in the dark but I thought
    that it might be worth while to ask for assistance in coming up
    with the rest of the money for the tests.  This woman was very under-
    standing and took my number and will call me back.  She said that
    they usually don't take cases like mine but after hearing the whole
    story, she thought that I had a good chance of receiving help from
    them.
    
    This whole thing has given me chills.  When I found the money I
    got the chills and a feeling of awe that someone would do something
    so wonderful.  And then when I was talking to this woman on the
    phone I started to cry.  I feel like if anything else nice happens
    to me I will start crying so hard I can't stop.
    
    Jesse was a stray cat that chose our bay winw to crawl under to
    die.  We nursed him back to health for 6 months and he emerged a
    very loyal and beautiful cat.  Someone up there is looking out for
    him, that I am sure of!
    
    '86 was a very difficult year for Ken and I.  It started out with
    me loosing my job after 8 years with a company.  Shortly after that
    Ken was laid off.  I was able to find part time work, but that only
    lasted for a few months before I was laid off again.  Then I was
    hired by DEC!  Thank goodness for DEC.  My husband got a job that
    same week!  We thought that was the end of the financial troubles
    until we realized that the company Ken was working for was having
    major financial troubles and wouldn't be able to pay him for a while!
    Unfortunately, he wants to be the one that turns this company around.
    He keeps telling me "no guts no glory"  to which I reply "no paycheck,
    no wife" (just kidding!!)  I prefer security to glory myself, but
    it is not worth losing a wonderful man over.
    
    Boy, more rambling than I intended.  I get that way when my emotions
    are stirred up.
    Jo

    The director of ACA called this afternoon and said that although
    they aren't set up for my type of problem, she would personally
    lend me the money if we could work out an equitable repayment 
    schedule.  I think I will take her up on that.
    Jo
    

    I'M A NEW NOTER.  I WORK FOR DEC IN HOUSTON AND JUST FOUND OUT HOW
    TO DO THIS.  MY 7 YEAR OLD PERSIAN "CORKIE" HAS BEEN DIAGNOSED AS
    HAVING A HEART MURMUR.  SHE'S BEEN VERY HEALTHY ALL OF HER LIFE
    WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A VERY SEVERE ALLERGY TO FLEAS.  SHE GETS
    SORES EVERYWHERE FLEAS BITE HER.  SHE IS STRICTLY AN INDOOR CAT,
    BUT FOR ANYONE THAT KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT HOUSTON KNOWS THAT YOU
    DON'T HAVE TO BE OUTDOORS TO GET FLEAS.  THEY COME IN WITH
    YOU.  ANYWAY, ON HER LAST CHECKUP, MY VET INFORMED ME THAT CORKIE
    HAD BECOME ANEMIC DUE TO THE CONSTANT SCRATCHING CAUSED BY HER ALLERGY
    AND THIS IN TURN CAUSED THE HEART MURMUR.  SHE IS PRESENTLY ON
    PREDNIZONE (SP?) TO HELP CONTROL THE ITCHING AND A HIGH POTENCY
    VITAMIN TO HELP THE ANEMIA.  SHE IS ALSO ON THE HILLS C/D.  THE
    VET SEEMS TO THINK THAT IF WE CAN CONTROL THE ANEMIA, WE CAN CONTROL
    OR POSSIBLY ELIMINATE THE MURMUR.  HE DOESN'T SEEM TO WORRIED ABOUT
    IT AT THIS POINT BECAUSE SHE'S HAPPY, EATING WELL, AND FEELING
    GENERALLY GOOD.  WISH US LUCK, AND WATCH THOSE FLEAS!!
    
    PAT

    Pat,  Welcome to feline.  I'm sorry to hear about Corkie's heart
    murmer.  Jesse has been doing very well lately, so that should be
    encouraging to you and Corkie.
    
    I did want to mention one thing about the Hills C/D.  My vet did
    not warn me that this is a very high calorie food.  If allowed to
    self feed, Corkie could put on excess weight very quickly and this
    could affect her heart.  My cats porked out on the C/D and I had
    to put them on a diet to get the excess off.  I now regulate how
    much they eat.  I feed them 1/4 cup per cat per day.  This is split
    into two meals, morning and evening.  I know that this doesn't sound
    like very much but believe me, it maintains their weight perfectly.
    
    Good luck to both of you
    
    Jo Ann

    THANKS FOR THE ADVICE AND THE ENCOURAGEMENT.  I WAS NOT AWARE OF
    THE HIGH CALORIE CONTENT OF THE C/D.  CORKIE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A VERY
    SLIM KITTY (UNDER ALL THAT FUZZ), AND ALWAYS WAS AN EXCELLENT SELF
    FEEDER.  I DID NOTICE THAT SHE HAD BEEN EATING MORE OF THIS STUFF
    AND I JUST ATTRIBUTED IT TO THE FACT THAT SHE HAD BEEN ILL AND WAS
    NOT EATING WELL BEFORE.  I'LL WATCH HER A LITTLE MORE CAREFULLY.
    THANKS AGAIN!
    

    Hi,
    
    I have a suggestion to help you rid Corkie of her fleas.  You might
    want to try using Proban.  This is a product that is given internally
    and kills the flea when it bites.  There is more information on
    this product (available only through your vet) in the note on Fleas.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    THE ALLERGIC REACTION THAT CAUSES THE BLEEDING SORES IS DUE TO AN
    ALLERGY TO THE FLEA SALIVA SO WHAT I'D LIKE TO FIND (AND I'M SURE
    EVERYONE ELSE TOO) IS SOMEHOW TO KEEP THEM OFF OF HER ENTIRELY.
    I'VE TRIED TO GET THE PROBAN HERE, AND MY VET (THAT CORKIE DEARLY
    LOVES) TELLS ME THAT IT'S ONLY APPROVED FOR DOGS AND HE CAN'T DISPENSE
    IT TO ME.  I'VE ASKED A FEW OTHER PEOPLE TO TRY THEIR VETS AND THEY
    GET THE SAME RESPONSE, AND SHE'S BEEN SO DELICATE IN THE PAST THAT
    EVEN IF THEY WOULD GIVE IT TO ME I'D BE AFRAID I'D KILL HER WITH
    IT.  ANYONE ELSE HAD ANY LUCK WITH PROBAN ON A CAT?  
    
    I TRULY APPRECIATE THIS NOTES FILE.  WHEN I ORIGINALLY GOT THE NEWS
    ON CORKIE'S HEART MURMUR I WAS HERE AT THE OFFICE.  AFTER I GOT
    OFF THE PHONE I MUST HAVE LOOKED NOTABLY UPSET BECAUSE I HAD A FEW
    OF MY ENGINEERS COME UP AND ASK ME WHAT WAS WRONG.  WHEN I TOLD
    THEM, THEY LAUGHED.  IT WAS A BIG JOKE, SO I QUICKLY SHUT UP.  WHAT
    PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE IS THAT TO SOME OF US, THESE LITTLE KEETERS ARE
    AS IMPORTANT AS CHILDREN (AND DEFINITELY AS EXPENSIVE).  IT'S GREAT
    TO BE ABLE TO TALK TO PEOPLE IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS.
                           
    THANKS!
    PAT

    I use Hills Citrus flea dip to control fleas on my cats.  It has
    a residual effect of about 2 weeks.  Here in California we have
    fleas all year around since it never gets cold enough to kill them
    in the winter (knock on wood).  The citrus flea dip is 80% Limonene
    which comes from the rinds of citrus fruits.  It has a very pleasant
    fragrance (like tangarines) and is easy to apply. 
    
    I usually mix it up according to the directions, 3 tablespoonsful
    per gallon of warm water and sponge it over the cats after their
    baths.  You do not rinse it off, just let it dry on their fur.
    I use Hills citrus flea shampoo for the baths.  If you haven't given
    your cat a bath before check out the note on bathing cats. I can't
    remember the number but you can just type  dir/title=bathing and
    it should pull it up for you.  
    
    Jo Ann

    One thing about using flea dips.  Make sure that the flea dip you
    are using is safe for use on cats.  There is a type that is fatal
    to cats.  Someone will have to help me out with the name.  Read
    the whole label before using on your cat.

    Your right, Proban hasn't been approved for cats, but I and many
    other breeders have been using it successfully for as long as I
    can remember.  Actually, I have been using it only for the past
    2 years.  I had a flea problem two years back that was simply
    unbelieveable.  I tried everything and to no avail.  I also have
    a cat with a severe flea allergy and she was just miserable.  Finally
    after trying everything else possible to rid the cat of fleas my
    vet reluctantly gave me the proban I had requested.  Seeing my results
    he now suggests it in very bad flea cases with other cat customers.
    
    I only notice one reaction that the cats have from it and that is
    a slight weezing for about an hour after giving it to them.  I only
    give it twice a week, and have even used it on nursing mothers.
    
    purrs
    cin
    

    I hope that the problem of the heat mummer is not serious. I recieved
    a cat almost 15 years ago that a heart mummer. At the time of recieving
    that cat we did not know there way a problem. The kitty ( I named
    her Smokey ) look to be any where for 6 to 10 week old. I took her
    down to the vet for shots ect, and found out she was 6 months old
    and aready as full grown as she would ever be ( Due to the heart
    problem).
    At the time the Vet offered to send Smokey to CU for a special
    operation that could help the problem and extend her life. We talked
    about it and since the possiblity of a cure or even it actually
    helping was slim, I decided to keep Smokey at my house and comfortable
    as long as possible. The next six month of my life where spent try
    to give Smokey the best ( even if short ) life that she could have. 
    
    My other cat, a 6 year old male tom by the name of Boss, thought
    she was the greatest thing that ever walked on the face of the earth.
    He would not allow Smokey out of the apartment with out him escorting
    her. No one other than me and a few select friends where allow to
    get near her. I think that Boss knew that some thing was wrong with
    Smokey. I am not sure who had a harder time when Smokey had to be put to
    sleep, me or Boss.
           
    It was so sad that one of the sweetest and most loving cat I have
    ever met had this happen to her.
    
    NJH