Conference misery::feline_v1

It's been about five years since I had Grey declawed, and I really don't
remember the exact cost. I know it wasn't prohibitive even then, but what-
ever it was it was less than the cost of replacing new furniture....

Post surgical care consisted mainly of letting her rest; her paws will
be understandably tender for a few days. The vet at the time told me she
would be unable to use clay litter, so for a few days I shredded up
toilet paper (!) into her box for her. She did seem to appreciate it,
but it required much more frequent maintenance due to the smell.

I believe the vet will only remove her front claws, as they did with Grey,
and she really has suffered no noticeable ill effects from this procedure.
She is also a predominantly indoor animal, and still stretches and flexes
her paws on the furniture; the retention of her rear claws still allows her
plenty of traction and the ability to climb out of danger if it becomes
necessary.

Good luck with Aja - it took me a minute of singing ('Learn to work the
saxaphone....') to identify Steely Dan; nice touch.

	/Harry and Grey

    I had one of my cats declawed about 2 years ago and it cost me 
    about $65.00.  This included 2 days stay at the vets.  There isn't
    much cost after that.  I used shredded up newspaper for
    a couple of days afterwards.  
    
    Believe me, it was worth every cent.  I bought new furniture also
    and if I didn't get him declawed the furniture would be distroyed
    by now.
                                                        

    
    
    	I had Sammy declawed and fixed about a year ago, It cost about
    	$120.00 for both, and a 3 day stay at the vets.  Then the
    	shredded up newspaper, supposedly for a week.  Sammy let me
    	know about 4 days later than he had it with the newspaper and
    	started to go on the floor.
    
    	Other wise, no ill effects, and I have gotten another cat
    	since then, and Sam uses his front paws as 'grabbers' and
    	either bites or uses his hind claws when the two tussle.

    
    	/robin

    Please note that declawing a cat will not inhibit the instinct to
    scratch, and there are cases of declawed cats whose toe pads develop
    calluses which are as effective as claws in destroying furniture.
    
    I do not think that it is to late to properly train the cat to use
    either a scratching post or a wicker mat to satisfy the scrathing
    desire.  You could try using some cat repellent on the current
    furniture you have.  Also each time the cat approaches the furniture
    to scratch a loud, "NO!" with the clap of your hands will scare
    it away.  Then pick the cat up and take it to the scratching post.
    Hold it's front paws and rub them against the post praising the
    cat while your doing this. It'll get the idea after a couple of weeks.
    Also, keeping a water pistol handy will let the cat know that the
    furniture is not the place for it to scratch.
    
    I have three cats, all indoor.  One is a stray that came out of
    the woods.  I have used the above method on all three and I have no 
    problem with any of them.
    
    Also, consider regularly trimming the cats claws so that they remain
    dull at all times.  This will aid in preventing any serious damage
    resulting to your furniture when the cat has the urge to scratch
    and you are not looking.
    
    Please try everything you can before you resort to declawing.
    Declawing is NOT the best thing you can do for your cat, training
    is.
    
    Good luck!
    
    
    

    The advantage of the water pistol, I'm told, is that the cat doesn't
    necessarily realize YOU are the cause of the nasty wet shock.  It
    may come to believe that this is a natural consequence of clawing
    furniture and so refrain from clawing even when you aren't there
    to object.  In my experience, if *I* punish the cat, the cat does
    not interpret this as "Don't do it," but as "Don't let him catch
    you at it."  So try to make them believe water pistols are a force
    of nature.
    
    I'm a lousy shot, so I used cat repellant, a spray by Hartz called
    "Indoor No."  I sprayed it on rags and tied it to the legs of the
    chair in question.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    I've tried the water pistol trick... It was effective for about
    a day. I used a plant sprayer set on the "stream" setting due to
    the longer range. My problem was the sprayer needed to be "fired"
    once to prime it before it would eject a stream. Aja quickly learned
    that this sound meant "exit" and would disappear post haste.
    
    Edd

    Another deterrent is to keep handy a rolled up newpaper and when
    the cat starts clawing just wack the palm of your hand with the
    paper, so it makes a loud noise and yell in an authoritative voice,
    "NO!!!".  All my cats know quite well what "NO!!!" means.
    
    (PS - "NO!!!" in a wimpy voice will not work.  Do NOT hit the cat
    with the paper.  Hitting the animal for doing something that comes
    natural will NOT solve the problem, the noise scare will.)
    

    Somewhat late but I felt the need to reply.  I just had a most
    interesting experience.  Just as I started to read .0 "Deacon Blues"
    came flowing through my headphones.  Very strange coincidence indeed.
    
    On the subject...  Our monsters have their claws and I must admit
    to some wear on the furniture but we haven't been too displeased.
    We started too late with the squirt bottle but few cats like to
    get wet so we've had some success with it.  Also, I second the firm
    voice.  tlh, my wife, has a great deal of verbal power over our cats.
    I, alas, am a bit too wimpy and they have the irritating tendency
    to ignore me.  Such is life with strong willed animals.
    
    
    Gary

    My thanks to all of you who replied! I originally thought I would
    forego the operation, as I don't really think that declawing is
    the best thing for Aja. Indoor "No!" looked like my best alternative.
    
    However, after nursing a 2" gash on my face a month ago and currently
    healing up my finger, her fate is sealed! Off with the claws! Mind
    you, I'm not "punishing" her, just exhibiting my own need for self-
    preservation.
    
    One rather odd thing... despite her 'attacks' against chairs, couches,
    woodwork (her favorite), screens, curtains, ect., she has NEVER
    so much as thought about the waterbed! And she sleeps on it!!!
    Lucky me....:^)
    
    Thanks all
    
    Edd

    I have to put in my vote for your original decision, not to declaw.
    I can certainly sympathize with your desire to keep you and your
    furniture intact, but I just can't accept that mutilating an animal
    is the better solution.  Training CAN be effective -- it takes a
    little more effort on your part, but then you wouldn't have gotten
    a pet in the first place if you weren't willing to make some
    accomodations in your lifstyle.  I have four cats, and am currently
    scratch-free (as in my furniture!).  I found that gently squeezing
    the offending toes, as a reminder, has quickly cured them of any
    tendencies to scratch while playing -- they all play without using
    claws on people!  I'll admit that they still use them on the dogs
    and each other, no system is perfect!!  Hope you reconsider...

    I would like to emphasize again that training is the answer... not
    declawing!  No matter what friends tell you, it IS a painful operation
    for the cat - similar to having one's fingernails removed.  That
    is why many veterinarians refuse to perform declaw surgery.  Many
    animal shelters have literature on declawing... I strongly suggest
    that you read about all sides of this issue before making a decision.
    
    Lisa
    
    P.S.  In some cases, the personality of the cat is altered after
    surgery, and not for the better.  Occasionally cats become less
    affectionate and more aggressive due to the need they feel to protect
    themselves.

In general, the cat fancy does not support de-clawing.  De-clawed and 
de-vocalized cats may not be shown under the rules of all the associations 
I belong to (CFF, CFA, TICA).  I've heard of no-one who allows this.  (This 
goes for household pets as well as the championship classes.)  Moreover, 
there is a clause is all the sales contracts of all the breeders I know 
prohibiting de-clawing.

We keep our cats' claws trimmed.  It only takes two minutes per cat once a 
month.  If your cat can draw blood with his claws trimmed, it's because 
(s)he was angry enough to bite you.

Ray_who_was_accidently_bitten_once_but_never_scratched

       *De-vocalized*!!!!!!??????
    
       What, they rip out the vocal chords on some cats????  
    
       That's the first I've heard of this barbaric practice.
    
    
    tlh
       (On the other hand, Gary and I were tempted to do a little devocalizing
    on Nazzie this morning.  He sure can be irritating until he's fed.
    A constant, and I mean constant, talking that is a cross between
    a yowl and a whine is his way of speeding up breakfast.)
    
                                    

Yep.

How do you keep a cat from scratching?  Remove its claws.

How do you keep a cat from yowling?  Cut its vocal cords.

Barbaric?

You bet.

Reputable breeders' contracts prohibit these practices.

Ray_who's_careful_to_whom_he_sells_kittens(contracts_notwithstanding)

    Whoa! I take off for a couple days and look what happens! ;^)
    
    I'm glad I started this note, as there is obviously a couple different
    schools of thought when it comes to declawing...
    
    My (emphasize MY) problem with training Aja is I'm not home during
    the day. Consequently she gets the run of the house. She is not
    hard to train by any means; I taught her to run at the sight of
    a spray bottle in about a day and a half. Litter training, as a
    kitten, was a breeze; I pointed, she knew. So my problem doesn't
    seem to be training, but rather "re-training". Maybe the spray 
    "NO!" is the best answer.
    
    Aj has a 'wierd' personality to say the least. She hates everyone
    except me, but loves to be close by. Just don't touch her! She puts
    up with patting for about 10 seconds. 
    
    I had to take her when she was 4 weeks old ("Take her or it's flush
    city!") ugh... :^(  I suspect she is inbred and certainly of no
    particular breed. (Unless pure white is a breed) She is playfull
    as hell, curious about everything, and FAST!!! 
    
    You're all right, I wouldn't have got her if I didn't want to modify
    my own lifestyle a bit. I'm just trying to find a compromise we
    both can live with...
    
    Thanks again for all your help
    
    Edd/Aja

    ...but I have heard stories and seen pictures of cats who have
    been declawed and, after the operation, the claws start growing
    back at strange angles right through the skin/pads of the paws.
    Pretty disgusting.  Also very painful for the cat.

    
    .... Aja gets to keep her claws.
    
    I tried to carefully clip them, as suggested. My chest is healing
    quite nicely, thank you! Forget it... 
    
    Thanks all!
    
    Edd & Aja

       You might try getting the claws 2 or 3 at a time when she's sleepy.
    I have some friends who find that's the only way to they can get
    it done.  (Although, I was over there the other night and got all
    the claws on said cat in one sitting and she wasn't even sleepy.
    Guess it's all in the way you hold them.)  If you're interested
    and have a good vet that's willing to do this,  ask the vet to show
    how he'd clip the claws if he had to do it by himself.  (No fair
    using an assistant unless you're going to have an assistant to help
    you with Aja.)  I find that I can get all 6 cats done with no bloodshed
    in about 10-15 min.  And it's not because they're really docile
    about it either.  (In fact, Nazzie (the Evil One) and Pip (the Vet
    Shredder) are down-right nasty about it.)
                               
    tlh
    

Once again, the old "wrap 'em up in an old towel you don't need anymore"
technique is recommended.
                                   
Place an old but fairly intact towel (no gaping holes) on your lap.
                                                      
Grab problem cat and place upside down on your lap, between your legs and on
the towel, with the neck even with the top of the towel. 
                                                                   
Take one side of the towel and wrap it around the cat.  Tuck the towel in under
the cat.  You may need to hold the scruff of the neck or the legs in order to
get the cat to let you do this.  Don't tuck it so tight the cat cannot breathe. 

Repeat the procedure with the other side of the towel, while holding the
first side of the towel firmly but gently to prevent escape.
                                           
Worm one of the cat's paws out of the towel.  Be gentle - it's probably
pretty cramped in there.  (If it's not cramped, be careful.  One very angry
cat is about ready to escape.  Unwrap the cat and start over.)

Clip the claws.

If you are lucky, you will be able to reinsert the first paw and get out the
second paw without fatally loosening the towel.  If you cannot, unwrap the cat
and start over. 

After both paws are done, unwrap the cat, tell it what a good animal it was,
and give it a treat.  The cat should be verbally soothed throughout the whole
procedure, of course 

I find the treat at the end invaluable.  Oscar Gordon ABSOLUTELY refused
to let me cut his claws when we first got him, and I had to wrap him up.
He seems to have caught on to the fact that if he lets me clip his claws
with no fuss, he gets an extra treat or two at the end.  Lately, I've been
clipping him on my lap with no towel.  He puts up with it and then makes
a beeline for the treat box!
                                                        
- Chris

    After having Aja spayed (See? I'm a good owner!) I found I couldn't
    get back to the vet (because of work) to have them pulled. Not wanting
    to risk infection, I decided to pull them myself. Please no flames,
    I had her best interests at heart.
    
    First attempt by myself resulted in bloodshed. (Mine!) So I got
    a friend to try and clip while I held. Guess how many bleeders we
    got now.... So I set the alarm for 4:00, and got her while she was
    still zonked. No problem. This will probably work for claws as well.
    
    Mind you, the last thing I want to be near when Aja's ticked off
    is her claws!! We're not talking a mere mortal cat here. I've got
    one little furry Rambo!!!
    
    Edd/Aja

    Oh, boy, the towel trick would NEVER work with Fickle (Nebula is
    more forgiving).  She'd think she was at the vet's having something
    unfriendly, like a blood sample, done to her.  She only tolerates
    being rolled up in a towel if she is wet.
    
    The easiest way to get the claws clipped is to tuck the owner of
    the claws under one arm, using that hand to hold a foot and spread
    the claws.  I always have to turn the cat around to get the second
    hind foot, though.  Both cats tolerate this as long as I get done
    fast.  One time Nebula squirmed too much aand I cut the quick of
    one of her back claws - boy did it bleed! - and she was very skittish
    about the back claws being clipped for a long time. . It probably
    helps if you clip fairly often - easier on the furniture anyhow,
    and the cat gets used to the idea.

    Nebula REALLY HATES cars, so rather than subject her to that to
    get her stitches out after she was spayed, I took them out.  That
    was no problem at all - easier than clipping her toenails (The Fickle
    would never have tolerated it, though; she does not like to have
    you touch her tummy and will rake with her back claws if you do).
     I held Neb with one hand, upside down (which she doesn't like much)
    and a small pair of sewing scissors and a tweezer in the other,
    and went clip-pull several times - no problem.  I think Neb was
    glad to be rid of the stitches, too, she was having trouble washing
    them to her satisfaction.

    Boy, Ed, you really had me going there for a minute.!  I didn't
    realize you were talking about stitches and not still talking about
    claws, so when you said "I decided to pull them myself"....
    
    No wonder she stuggled! :-)
    
    tlh
    

    Sorry Tracey!! I didn't realize I had made no reference to STITCHES
    until after entering the note, then it was too late.
    
    Gawd, I'd rather pull MY OWN toenails than attempt to do Aja's!!
    
    (Gotta sign off, she's sitting on the terminal. If she reads this,
    I'll never catch her!!)
    
    Edd

    Have you ever heard of a cat that will let you wash a foot (under
    a faucet of lukewarm running water) without removing a few layers
    of your skin?  One of mine will - the other one would probably
    purr.  They like water.  But I have tried a lot of other things
    with them I should have gotten scratched for - and didn't.  They
    are both 4 month old maine coon kitties.  Claws have been clipped
    weekly since they arrived.  They don't play with each other or us
    using claws.  The claws come out on the two scratching posts, and
    a small wicker mat... which we have encouraged since they arrived
    with the methods mentioned in previous replys.  We let them know
    we didn't like being scratched ourselves by saying OUCH! and masaging
    their paws to get the claws to go in.  [That didn't take long for
    them to learn.]  
    
    Just thought you'd like to know that training will work... 
    [now all I have to figure out is how to stop one of them from
    sucking her tail off!  The tail is supposed to be black - but the tip
    is now brown.]
                              \sjm

    I never had any strong feelings re: declawing a cat - until yesterday.
    My wife noticed two stray dogs that were barking in the woods behind
    our house at about 7:00 P.M.
    I went to check it out and found that the two dogs had cornered our
    neighbor's cat Charlie (who has been declawed).
    Charlie was crouched at the base of a tree, drooling and panting
    at a rapid rate. The two dogs ran as I approached. 
    Charlie's fur was wet with saliva from where the dogs had him in
    their mouths. While my wife called Charlie's owner I looked Charlie
    over for any obvious injury, and found none. He was taken to the
    vet and was treated for a two inch puncture wound at the base of
    the tail and kept overnight for observation.
    In my opinion, Charlie was ready to call it quits before the dogs
    were scared away. He couldn't climb the tree where he was cowering,
    and he didn't have any breath to run away.
    From the experience of last night I must say that I am strongly
    against declawing.
    
    Ken - a three cat owner
    
    

Please - suggest to your neighbors that Charlie be kept inside.

If they didn't want to take the responsibility to train Charlie not to claw
their furniture, they should at least take the responsibility to keep Charlie
alive.

- Chris

    I disagree, I'm sorry! My cats have all been declawed, and they
    still climb everything in the house.... including the door frames.
    If Charlie is declawed, he should not be let outside......... it's
    cruel to have his natural defenses taken away and then be shoved
    out to fend any way he can.
    
    My vet told us to declaw because indoor cats can get hurt very badly
    by just playing rough, and they don't need the front claws if they
    are inside all the time. You would never know mine are declawed,
    the way they climb and play.
    
    M-L

	I would tend to disagree with the Vet who stated that indoor cats will 
harm each other if they aren't declawed. The reason to declaw is rooted in the 
desire to protect valuables. Though I personally wouldn't declaw a cat I'm 
sure there are many people who wouldn't have a cat if they couldn't declaw it 
(thus protecting their valuables), which means another cat that didn't get the 
gas. I must admit apprehension in buying a new leather recliner since I fear 
one of my 4 cats might use it as a scratching post.

	As for cat's being allowed to roam around and "mutilate" mice and
birds, it is very rare for a cat to get a bird (they try). I always thought
the whole reason for the domestication of cats WAS to kill mice. Since man has
eliminated many natural predators we are fortunate to have in our midst such
an effective hunter. My cats are indispensible in keeping the mice/mole
population down. Without my cats I would have alot more mice in the house and 
all the "bad" things associated with that.

	long live the artful mouser!

/harry

    Cats do play an important role in rodent control. If you live in
    an area where there are an over abundance of mice then I would prefer
    to use a cat to keep the population down (which has probably risen
    due to excess of food available and lack of natural predators) than
    to use poisons which can also harm children and other pets. My cats
    perform a valuable service to me in getting rid of mice and rats
    that would other wise eat my grain and get into my house and get
    into my food. I am somewhat amazed that in the city where rats and
    mice are a serious problem people don't choose cats over less effective
    and more dangerous poisons. As far as birds are concerned I make
    no brief for cats - except what kinds of birds are they killing and
    what was their physical condition? We have an over abundance of
    trash birds - English sparrows and starlings - that were brought
    in by people nostalgic for England and which are driving out our
    American birds. I will guess that the birds killed by cats in built
    up areas are either of the "trash" variety that are driving out
    our native birds like blue birds,  or were already in poor health
    (and thue easy to catch) in which case they were replacing natural
    predators.

	Well my fully clawed cats have only brought me 2 birds so far, but the 
mice/moles/shrews must be past a hundred. I'm willing to concede that there 
are probably cats that do bag lots of birds, and it certain areas this may be 
unacceptable. But I'm not willing to give up my expert mousers, I live in a 
rural area where it is a necessity. I take great pride in my cats mousing 
ability, I see the cat as Nature's answer to rodents, who unchecked, could 
easily gobble up the globes food supply. Look at them!! They are built for the 
job, the right size, agile and intelligent. Everything a predator has to be. 
It is their nature, just put a mouse in a room with ANY cat and you'll see 
what I mean.

	I don't mean to preach (or stray from the primary topic too much!) but 
I wanted to "clear up" *my* point of view. I'm willing to live with other 
points of views as long as they don't belittle my own to substantiate their 
cause.
	I used to be an "anti-declawer", I didn't believe it was right under 
any circumstances. I've seen many indoor (declawed) cats, and although I felt 
other methods should've been tried before resorting to declawing, the cat's 
looked/behaved none the worse for the experience. So I've modified my view to 
"I won't declaw my cats" and I won't pounce on someone who does. The feeling 
I've perceived from this file is that there is a great care for what is 
"right" for their pets. As long as that attitude is the prevelant factor I 
don't think you can go wrong.

	/harry

    I just had to answer .34 that said "put a mouse in a room with ANY
    cat" -- based on a recent experience I think the word 'any' is a
    little too strong.  My littlest cat came running downstairs one
    night with something in her mouth (I suspected a raid on the kitchen
    garbage), which she took into another room to show us.  It turned
    out to be a shrew, and she sat there and watched it running around
    squeaking!  Some mouser!!  After 5 minutes of alert watching on
    her part I fetched one of my other cats who promptly took care of
    business.  I suppose my little one would have figured it out eventually
    but I didn't want the thing getting away while she thought about
    it.  
    
    As a  comment on declawing, I guess I feel pretty strongly against
    it but consider that a personal opinion and try not to be rabid
    about it in the presence of those who feel otherwise.  My in-laws
    automatically declaw their cats to save the furniture, but then
    their idea of 'correcting' the cats' behavior is to say "Don't do
    that" in the mildest tone possible!  They now think I am a feline
    expert because I trimmed their new kitten's claws -- it really isn't
    that big a deal with a cooperative subject, but they continue to
    think it approaches rocket science and is completely beyond them.
    They really feel declawing is their only option, and maybe for them
    it is.  In all other respects the cats are very well cared for so
    it isn't that bad a deal, maybe I'll change their minds someday.
    
    Jan

    By the way, to the person whose vet said their two cats would hurt
    each other if they retained their claws, it's pure bunk.  Unless
    your cats hate each other (in which case the damage won't be less
    if they're declawed - cats have teeth and back claws too, and the
    psychological stress of two hating cats is pretty grim), they will
    *look* like they're tearing into each other, but neither of them
    will have a single scratch.  There may be fur all over the carpet,
    especially if your cat(s) have long hair, but there won't be any
    wounds.  Our two get into wrestling matches, which we sometimes
    break up (I think they forget how to stop!), but neither of them
    has ever been hurt.  Cats have thick skins, and they usually know
    when they're playing.
    
    --Louise

    It wasn't two cats, it was my 8 cats. I believed him, after all
    he was/is the President of the Colorado Vetrenary Association, plus
    two of mine in playing (and that's all it was) got a little too
    rough and one ended up with a claw under his eye. We had weeks of
    having to keep this thing open to drain, it became a cyst before
    I knew there was anything wrong, and it caused a heck of a
    discoloration on his face when the hair grew back..... not a pretty
    sight for a Himalayan. Not to mention no fun for the cat to have
    his face opened daily for weeks........ You can disagree, and I
    won't argue...... but I really beleive my vet knew what he was talking
    about!

    On declawing:
    
    While I'm philosophically against it, I went along with it for my
    three at the insistence of my fiancee (now my wife).  The cats are
    indoor cats ans while the house was being rebuilt, we were staying
    at an apartment about 20 miles from "home."  Merlin, my most
    intelligent, tried to "go home" after jimmying open a back door.
     He returned three days later, not a bit injured, not an ounce lighter,
    and he was declawed.
    
    He's never gotten away again (or wanted to), and when a stray mouse
    manages to get into our (completely refurbished) house, he still
    catches 'em quickly.  Usually eats them, too, but does a bad job
    of it (but that's another story, and he's checked periodically and
    innoculated).
    
    I don't recommend declawing, but if it _does_ happen, it might not
    be "fatal."
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

        I just thought that I would add my $.02 worth. On the subject
    of cats not being able to catch birds - HA. I have a female that
    was (is?) excellent at it. When we first got her we let her go outside,
    now she is strickly an indoor cat (that's another subject which
    has been discussed at length already), but she used to catch birds
    all the time. Since we have been keeping her inside (for quite a
    few years now), we have had her declawed. But that hasn't stopped
    her - we did find a dead mouse in the basement one time. We also
    have seen her climb many things, many times. So don't think that your
    making them helpless - BUT - without claws they should be kept inside.

    
                 Tom