Conference misery::feline_v1

Nice, and gorillas are okay.  But I wonder how the kittens feel about it.

Steve

They just go ape about it...

Re .1

What would the kitten think about a human?  Gorillas probably look the
same only harrier.  My guess is that if the kitten is loved, it will love
and it doesn't matter what type of creature is doing the loving.

Denise

   I've seen footage of Koko and the late All Ball.  My concern was that she
could be gentle enough for a little kitten.  Folks, I've seen kids that were 
rougher.  The kitty seemed to enjoy the attention.

Hope the kittens don't get eaten!  They're still dealing with animals here.
Gorillas can revert to wild behavior as they get older.  What about the
poor kitten!

If someone kept you imprisoned from the time you were young until you "got
older" you might revert to wild behavior too.

I think that the cat might help keep Koko sane.

Remember, Koko is not simply an 'animal.' *We* are animals too. A creature
with a 700 word vocabulary is probably more like a mentally retarded human
than a non-speaking gorilla. 

Also, cats are very good at fending off unwanted affection. I remember when my
sister was 2 years old and prone to carring the poor cat by the throat. The
cat trained her quite efficently.

Did anyone else notice that the gorillas were called 'it' in the original
story? Newsweek published three letters from people who were offended. I
was offended too.

Carefull !! (RE:.6)

There are alot of retarded people that have enough functionality to
take offense at that.

You can not compare the primate species to humans. (Apples and Oranges ?)
The fact that gorillas use sign language does not (!!!!) imply intelligence
but just a high degree of spacial relationship capability.  
Because my parrot talks does not make her intelligent...just as Koko
using sign language does not make him "Like a retarded human".

Koko is a very intelligent gorilla and that's all !  
Boy , that always burns me up.  I have had enough of that ham !
Nobody ever sees me giving sign language.  I have learned to stick
a finger in the air that makes all the humans that watch me laugh -- I 
do not know what it meens but they always do it back. Must be
hello ....


		Signed,
			A disgruntled gorilla stepped over by Koko on
			his way to the top.  Grunt Grunt...

Re .8:

Please get your story straight.  First you say that using sign language does
not imply intelligence, then you say Koko is just a very intelligent gorilla.

Koko is demonstrating more than spatial relationships.  She is communicating
ideas, wishes, and information.  The mere fact that she requested another
kitten shows that she is aware of her emotions, what she wants, that she can
think of the future, and that she can imagine ("gee, it would be nice if I
had a kitten").  Obviously, she had never asked for a kitten before (I believe
All Ball was given to her without her asking).  Therefore, in communicating
her request, she was generalizing -- "I've asked for other things (like food)
by doing this, maybe they will get me a kitten if I do this and say 'kitten'
instead of 'food'."  What human talent do you imagine she is lacking?  Not
everything was discussed in the two short articles I have seen, but I would
bet she has exhibited creativity, as well as other traits.

If you do not accept this, what do you believe intelligence to be?

Incidentally, you mention that an animal would just be repeating an action
to which it has gotten a desirable response (the finger example).  What
makes you think humans are doing anything different, on a more complex
scale?  Your "consciousness" is just something that has evolved to let you
work with more complex relationships.

Hmm . . . Time to move this to another notes file?


				-- edp

Yes, I agreee - see notes file MIGHTY::LIFE  notes in the
section titled EXISTENTIALISM.

I did have my story straight -- I said that Koko's communication did not
imply HUMAN (!) intelligence at any level, and that he/she was just a very
intelligent gorilla. (Gorilla intelligence !)

I think your definition of conscioussness is very interesting... Your 
comments in EXISTENTIALISM  would be appreciated, but please start a new note.
(Perhaps entitled Sartre)

MBM

By the way - my answer to your last question.
Do you think parrots know what they are implicating when they mimic
words?  I certainly hope mine does not as it can be quite rude.

I (& others)are quite insulted by your implication that Koko
is not missing any human intellectual traits.  I guess we might
as while pack it in !!

I am preparing a number of things for entry in a note in LIFE.  Maybe I will
post a note there within a few days -- certainly within a few weeks.

You are going to have to explain the difference between gorilla intelligence
and human intelligence.  When someone asks me for a kitten, or tells me they
are unhappy, how do I tell if they have gorilla intelligence or human
intelligence?

No, I don't think parrots "know" what they are "implying" (I believe you meant
"implying" rather than "implicating").  Of course, if they don't know, then
they aren't "implying" anything, just saying words that might mean something if
they did know.  Also, you will have to define "know" -- what makes you think
you or anyone else "knows" anything?  I think meaning arises from the way
symbols are manipulated.  There is nothing special about the word "tree" that
means tree.  But when its used properly, in a system that includes other words
like "tall", "leaves", "heavy", "can be chopped down", et cetera, then it takes
on meaning, because only in such a system can you say things about a tree. 
"Knowing" something means you can juggle the words properly.  Parrots don't
manipulate words in any way other than to repeat them.  The gorillas were
changing word-order, substituting words in phrases, and so on.  Since they can
manipulate the words, they "know" what they "mean". 

Please don't say "and others" unless you have really consulted with other
people to see if they are offended.  It really irks me when some people
assume authority they don't have.  (Of course, if you have consulted with
others, please ignore this.)  Only four types of people should use the
first person plural by themselves -- Popes, Kings, editors, and people with
tapeworm.

Why are you insulted that Koko has the same kind of intelligence as you?  I
didn't say she had the same quantity.  The traits we have are not anything
mystical.


				-- edp

Just to bring this back to cats, anyone who reads this file should agree that
animals are intelligent.  For example, have you ever seen a cat climb around
for a while, then find themselves on a high shelf which is not easy to get off
of?  Often, they will look around, seeking a way down.  If you follow their
eyes, it is obvious they are mentally considering various paths to the floor;
they are saying to themselves "If I go here, then I can go there next -- no
that won't work, how about over here?".  While I don't claim they have words
or anything close to that level of development, it is obvious that they are
considering futures that do not exist.  This is an obvious demonstration of
intelligence.


				-- edp

I will see YOU in LIfE.NOT




Mike

See MIGHTY""::SYS$NOTES:LIFE, note #42 for further discussion.

	For those who weren't reading this note for the discussions that ended
up in the LIFE file, there's a story on Koko and his kitties in the latest
issue of - what else? - LIFE!
		<_Jym_>

    I read several years ago in National Geographic Magazine an article on Koko
    and it mentioned that he even knowd how to scheme and lie.  For instance,
    they caught him trying to pick his lock with a pencil and when they
    confronted him he pretended to be smoking it as a cigarette.  All
    the while he had been filmed.  Apparently, he also new right from
    wrong, how to scheme, use an alibi and think real quick to keep
    out of trouble, not mention he knew how to pick a lock, desired
    to pick a lock and desired to be free.  Sounds pretty smart to me.
    Sometimes I wonder how much animals really could compete with us
    if they had the dexterity of hands, feet, fingers, arms and legs and
    vocal cords.  With just the brain power they seem to have, I think
    if they had these other advantages as we humans do, we'd be in for
    a surprise.  I think those brains of theirs do a lot of thinking
    and planning.  Anybody who has owned a loving pet has witnessed
    that.
                                                  

    re:  86.17 note - Please excuse the word "knowd".  It was a typo.
    I do speak better English than that.  Sorry.
    

    Also in the Nat'l Geographical article they showed him pictures
    and asked him to sign back what he thought.  One picture in particular
    that I recall, was a horse with a bridle in its mouth.  Koko signed
    back "sad".  When his kitten died he also signed "sad". 

    For those of you interested, there is a book out chronicling the
    story of Koko and All Ball.  It is complete with pictures.  I saw
    it once in the youth books section of a book store.  At present
    the title escapes me but I will publish it when I find it.
    
    It is a very touching story and from what I remember the kitten was
    the one who sought Koko, on his own.  The trainers feared that All
    Ball would be found crushed but instead they found a very loving
    relationship starting.  Koko babied the kitten and even commented
    about how sharp All Ball's claws were but NEVER lost her/his temper
    with the kitten.  Koko even went so far as to do a "portrait" of
    All Ball.  Koko was also filmed "telling" a story to All Ball while
    no one (human) was visible.
    
    FLAME-ON
    
    I guess I'm getting a little worked up about the previous notes,
    even though they were written some time ago.  I have read quite
    a bit on primates and feel that those people who consider animals
    "dumb" and unable to be logical and therefore "not intelligent",
    a little hard to take.  Statistics have proved that primates babies
    and human babies develop mentally and physically at the same rate
    until human speech begins.  At that point, primates(gorillas) fall
    behind. (Could it be communication break-down?!?)
    
    If the signing gorillas were not intelligent, then they would not
    be able to assimilate words into a sentence, to express emotions,
    needs, wants and desires.
    
    And if human beings are so "intelligent", how could we have made
    this whole world such a mess?  We are the only living creatures
    that can't/don't live with the environment.  We destroy it and the
    other creatures that inhabit this world to fit "our" needs.  We
    are not the only ones who use tools (which is supposed to be a
    separating factor between animals and humans).  Primates in the
    wild have been filmed using leaves as tools(ie spoons/cups to scoop
    up water that they could not get to otherwise).
    
    So tell me again, animals are not intelligent!  At least they don't
    build weapons that could kill us all.
    
    I'll get off my soapbox now, thank-you
    
    FLAME-OFF
    
    Sorry for the flaming at such a late date and I'm not looking to
    start up another *great-debate*.  But I just had to get that off
    my chest.  If theere are any comments to be made, please feel free
    to contact me off-line, so as not to tie up this note any further.
    
    
    If you're really interested in this story, the book is really good.
    I believe it's called "A Kitten for Koko" but will get all the details
    tonight.
    
    Thanks for your patience,
    
    Roslyn                    

Just wanted to mention that Koko is a female, previous notes have used
the male gender in referring to her.  She does have a boyfriend, Michael,
who has also learned to sign and the foundation that owns them is hoping
to have the opportunity to see if they teach their offspring to sign!
The gorillas have the most amazing conversations with the keepers, it is
spooky to see how close to humans they seem to be -- more than I had
ever expected.


Jan  who's_just_glad_cats_can't_talk_in_human_speech

It looks like this topic WAS devoted to the discussion of ONE story about
a hundred years ago, but it seemed like the best place to put my cute cat
story! (Hi all you "next unseen" 'ers!!)  ;*)

Well, I STILL have not officially introduced either of my girls in the intro's
note, so I'll save all of the details for that & I'll get to it reeeeeeaaaal
soon, OK!?

About a year ago, we got Tabitha. She was about 8 weeks at the time. She is
really a little doll. She loved to play with us & SHE was the one who made
up the games. Chase used to be her favorite one! She'd come flying into the 
living room w/ that "I betcha can't get me" look in her eyes & take off! Well,
that was our que to get up & go after her on our hands & Knees. We'd hide
behind a corner, & She'd BOLT around & give us a smack in the head!! It WAS SO
FUNNY!!!

After almost a year, we began to consider getting another little girl to keep
Tabitha company & be her little buddy. We figured it would make things TWICE
as fun!! Enter Callie, the sweet baby luv. She's really a sweetie pie (when
she's asleep (^% ) They hit it off almost right awawy. It usually takes a cou-
ple of days, anyway. Now they're absolute best buddies!! They play, & sleep
together, and they clean each other...it's so cute!

The thing is, since we got Callie, Tabitha doesn't play with US anymore, and
her VERY SELDOM lap visits have become non-existant. her personality hasn't
changed that much tho. If anything she seems more mellow, but when she & Callie
are playing...WATCH OUT! They're BOTH a couple of wild ones. She is also very
affectionate to callie, & sort of watches out for her. Dave & I were worried
about TABITHA being jealous, but we never realized that WE would be jealous
of Callie!!! Tabitha HAS to be in the same room w/ us, & lets us pat & scratch
her, but doesn't always like the mushy lovey stuff.

Well, I guess all that's changing now. It figures, it has been happening
JUST as I'm about to leave the house, or go to bed, too! Yesterday as I was
getting ready to leave the house & Tabitha came running over & jumped up on the
chair that I was standing beside. She started giving me head buts & rubbing up
against me. I was surprised to say the least! I *HAD* to stay & give her kitty
love, and ended up being a few minutes late for work because of it ( but it WAS
well worth it!!)

Then last night, I was up kind of late & was just about to turn in, when out
of the blue, Tabitha comes over, jumps up on the couch, & LAYS DOWN NEXT TO
ME!!! I couldn't believe it! I quietly signaled to Dave, who was sitting across
the room, "Pssst...check this out!!" My first thought was, "oh, no, she MUST
be sick!" But she was really fine. She just made herself comfy & started purring
(very quietly, but still purring) her little heart out! Needless to say, I was
up even later than I wanted to be, because I couldn't pass up this once in life-
time event!!

Then Callie came up & joined her! I fully expected Tab to get down & walk away.
Like I said, she doesn't go for the mushy stuff around people. Well, they just
sat behind my leggs, cleaning each other & giving kitty loves. IT WAS SO ADOR-
ABLE!! I stayed up until Tabitha finally did get sick of all the Mumma love &
kitty love, and she jumped down. Callie followed right after her & before I 
knew it, they were tearing up the carpet again!!!

I hope Tabitha continues her sweetness, Callie is the lappiest lap cat I've 
ever seen, maybe she's been giving Tabitha pointers!! Thanks for reading this
long note...can you tell? I'M ONE EXCITED MOM!!!

Bonnie

    Lap cats.... boy are they a rarity these days!!  My husband would let
    me have 40 cats if I would guarantee they'd all be lap cats.  I have
    also found that the more cats we have, the less "lappy" they become
    because they have each other to entertain.  But, once in a great while
    we'll be watching TV and one of the cats will come in and join us on
    the couch or sit in our lap for awhile.  All will, except for Kelsey. 
    He doesn't do laps but he will sit beside you and put a paw or his head
    on your arm or leg.
    
    We're still searching for the mushiest, most aggravating lap cat for
    Dana.  I like the independent ones myself.... but he must have a cat on
    him whenever he's home lounging around.  It's a house rule :^).
    

              
>    We're still searching for the mushiest, most aggravating lap cat for
>    Dana.  I like the independent ones myself.... but he must have a cat on
>    him whenever he's home lounging around.  It's a house rule :^).
 
    
    You're talking about my Benjamin there!  My roommates (because they
    don't love him as much as I do) insist that he is the MOST AGGRAVATING
    lap cat they've ever seen.  He'll do anything for attention.  His 
    newest trick (since we moved the phone/answering machine) is playing
    the piano.  If one of us comes home and listens to messages or makes
    a phone call before we see/greet Ben (which is frequent, because he's
    only waiting at the door for them about 40% and me 90% of the times)
    He jumps on the piano (keyboard) to get closer to us.  Serenading us 
    with his unusual siamese vocalizing.
    
    I wouldn't sell him to the gypsies (although I still say I will) but
    I might be willing to give him to someone to show them how much they
    DON'T want the world's most aggravating lap cat!  8^)
    
    dm   

    Roberta & DM,
    
    Kelsey & Benjamin sound like real sweetiepies!! :*)
    
    DM, I bet you can't read a newspaper unless Ben is SLEEPING!!! :*)
    Callie thinks we're either ignoring her, or that we opened up the paper
    JUST for HER to lay across & ham it up!!
    
    Bonnie

    re: .26
    
    Open up two sections, that's the ticket.  Then you read whichever
    section isn't being sat on.  This requires switching in the middle
    of stories, from time to time....
    

      re:23.
    
            Like Garfield says "never trust a smiling cat".
    What did Tabitha and Callie do?  You'll probably find something
    broken somewhere, but she'll make sure when you find it that you think
    she's the sweetest, most beautiful kitty in the world, and there's just
    no way to get mad at her....I have one that's real good for that.
    They are sooooooo funny!
    
                                     Denise and gang of 10
    

    HA HA HA!! I love it!! I'l try the two sections at a time method!!
    
    Denise, You're probably right!!...%*) I KNEW this was too good to 
    be true!! Ha HA !!!
    
    Bonnie

    The things we do to accomodate our kitties ;^}