Conference misery::feline_v1

It's a very sad world in which we live.

I'm sorry to hear about your kitty. I hope he/she makes it. One can
only wonder why the apparent low esteem for life in our world. I
known some people would say "it's only a cat" but, God, that little
guy probably wasn't hurting anybody/anything.

My prayers go out to your kitty. Hope your friend "makes" it OK.

-- Bob

Update on Kitty:

I visited Kitty in the hospital today and brought him some of his
regular food.  (What else do you bring an ailing cat, flowers?)
He was happy to see me and looked silly, just like a
poodle, with no fur from his front to back legs all the way around.
The doctor extracted the fur from his lungs which the bullet had dragged
through them.  He was surprized he "pulled through".  Kitty seemed to be
in "good spirits" and if he is breathing better, will be able to come
home tomorrow (thank God).  Believe me, St. Francis must have been in
that operating room, too.

Nichole

The poor kitty.  I'm glad that he pulled through, and I hope he continues
to improve.

This world that we live in leaves much to be desired at times.  A poor
kitty couldn't possibly have done something to heed someone shooting it!!!
I get so mad when I hear of all the terrible things that befall all animals,
especially cats.  I've gotten so paranoid about what happens to the poor
little animals that my cat is an indoor cat, by my choice--not his,
he loves the outside and he goes out with me for little jaunts, but then
right back in.

Good luck Nichole!

		Cindy

Sure hope everything continues to go well, Nichole.  It is so frustrating
to have to deal with the stupidities of the world.  My kids and I are
all hoping for the best for your kitty.

Ellen

	Add my, C'mell's, and Apollo's indignation at what transpired, and our
heartfelt relief that things turned out well.

	I am pleased to read that your kitty is doing so well.  But
	I am personally acquainted with a person (now a loving father 
	and lawyer) who while still in law school took great delight
	in killing cats -- both by shooting them and dropping them
	off high bridges into a fast flowing river.  

	I too keep both of my cats indoors now.

		Julie

   That's sick!  If he tried that around here, he'd have me to reckon with.
I'm not powerful but when somebody mistreats an animal, I get pissed off and
generally get my way.  (My neighbors had their dog spayed just to get me off 
their back.  The poor dog had had 4 litters in less than a year!  The thing 
was going to die of calcium deficiency and couldn't nurse her puppies.  I
bottled raised the puppies, got them information on the spay and neuter clinic,
made an appointment for them and made sure they kept it.  The puppies now
have good homes with poeple who will have them fixed when it is time and the
mother is spayed and healthier and livlier than she's ever been before.)
You'd be amazed at how much you can get accomplished if you're willing to butt
in.  (I generally don't have enough courage, but callous disregard for animals
will get me mad enough that I overcome my inhibitions.)
   If you see anybody shooting at animals, turn them in!  If you don't,
nobody will.  (This includes birds by the way.  What most people don't know,
is that it is illegal to shoot songbirds(In S.C. at any rate).  I've turned 
in several people for shooting at birds with b-b guns.  They were charged too.)
This probably won't make a big difference, but at least the birds that I lure
in in the winter to feed, will not be lured in to their deaths.  My neighbor-
hood is safe.  

  I suppose I should have put this in soapbox, but all of us in this file have
a stake in how safe animals are out there.  Mine are indoor cats but if they
should get out for a night, like they accidently did a couple of weeks ago,
I want to know that they are as safe as I can make it for them.

tlh

If your cat was roaming on someone else's property without a collar, you
deserve to have your cat shot (though the cat itself may not deserve it).

Cats in my neighborhood.  When the folks across the street moved away a few
years ago, they left a cat bitch.  Other neighbors abandoned a male, and take
no responsibility for the ensueing litters.  Most of the kittens die off in the
winter, but during the summer and fall, they scavenge garbage, and tease dogs.
The adult cats terrorize and scratch local children.  I'd shoot them.

My greyhound has killed two young cats that were rummaging through our garbage
(the greyhound was leashed).  I captured one young cat; the town's acting animal
control officer offered to take it away and let it loose (boy, that's bright).
Anyway, I took it to the Nashua Humane Society's animal shelter (the greyhound
prevented us from keeping it long enough to find it a real home).  It probably
has a better chance than many of the animals at the shelter (only about 5% are
placed), since it was still fairly young.

Moral:

Put a collar on your cats.  Keep them on or around your property.  Neuter your
cats if you let them out of the house.  Don't abandon animals.  If you find a
stray, try to find it a home.  If you're looking for a pet, try the shelter.

I know how you feel. Three years ago I was visiting a friends farm. Since
the owner was late I waited outside. Its a nice place having a dog, several 
horses, two geese, and assorted cats. My attention was caught by something
moving by the barn, I went over and found Munchkin. She was a cute Tortoise-
shell, very small and very hurt. 

I examined her and found she had no use of her right foreleg. When the owner
arrived I pointed out Munchkin's injury. Since Munchkin had been abandoned
on the farm by a renter I offered to take over treatment. However only four 
cats were allowed in my house by the owner so I knew I could only get by for 
the length of her convalescence. 

I dropped her off at my vets the next day and called later to see how she was 
fareing. It wasn't good. Her upper leg bone was shattered, she had worms, and
she was pregnant. The combination was draining her strength. Further her leg was
too far along in healing to allow splinting. Apparently she had gone for at 
least several days that way but being an outdoor cat it hadn't been noticed.

As it turned out her leg mended well and she could walk on it with no 
trouble. I got her wormed and vaccinated and fed her until she had put her
weight back on. Then one night she had a miscarriage in my bed. I had her
spayed soon after as she had miscarriaged on three pregnancies. The Vet
said that after checking the x-rays she concluded that the cat had been shot
with a shotgun. There was evidence of an entry and exit wound and the bone
had been completely shattered.

After 3 months she was back in the pink of health. That meant that she had go 
back to keep the four cat house limit. I was sorry to see her go but I had 
agreed to the restriction. After 3 weeks back at the old place she 
disappeared. I like to think she tried getting back to my place and found
a new home but there is no way of knowing what really happened.


							.wIx.

    

    
    I know it's a bit late in reading this Nov. '84 note file, but I
    can't help wondering what kind of a person this so-called "loving
    father and lawyer really is?  I would be very ashamed to have him
    as my father and most definitely would not want him for a lawyer!
    

    Some people will shoot/kill anything that moves.  I guess that's
    really because they resent anything that is freer than they are.
    By killing they feel the superior.  Whenever I happen to see an
    issue of any hunting/gun/rifle magazine I always get a kick out
    of the photos of the "sportsman" standing over his kill.  It is
    usually the dead animal that looks the more intelligent of the two.
    
    -Jim-

    I'm living in fear of the same thing at the moment.  My neighbour
    2 doors down, owns the plot of land at the top of our garden.  He's
    got 26 birds, and keeps most of them in aviaries on the land at
    the top of our garden.
    
    Most of the birds are buzzards, kestrels and owls, so although my
    2 cats like a look around, they don't bother the birds too much.
    
    The other day, my neighbour presented me with a headless carcass
    of an owl.  I like owls, and thought it was pretty horrible for the
    poor thing to be decapitated, but I got really annoyed when my
    neighbour accused my cat of killing it.
    
    According to him, Ifor managed to get hold of the owl through the
    chicken wire and then pulled the head right off, through the chicken
    wire.  I know my cat's quite strong, but I can't see that he could
    wrench the head off a large owl.
    
    Ifor's not got one scratch, and although my neighbour saw him by
    the cage, I'm certain that the owl must have been killed by a fox,
    and that Ifor was just looking at the remains.
    
    Also, when my neighbour chased Ifor away, he couldn't find the head.
    Ifor didn't take it with him, and I doubt he swallowed it whole!
    The neighbour has also had several hens that have had the heads
    pulled off, so I'm convinced it must be a fox.  I also feel that
    if he keeps birds in cages, he should make sure that the cages are
    suitable to keep preditors out.
    
    The thing is, this guy and his wife hate our cats so much, that
    as well as being VERY unpleasant to us, they've threatened our cats
    with an air-gun and traps, and I wouldn't put it past them to lay
    poison down for them
    
    There's no law against air guns, and I couldn't get them for cruelty
    to animals until AFTER they hurt Ifor.  They've virtually admitted
    to hitting him once before (he ended up at the vets, unable to use
    his back leg), and now every time I come to work, I keep wondering
    what Ifor and Idris are doing. I can't keep them shut up all day
    and night, because they go crazy for the outdoors.
    
    Someone suggested I report them to the police, but believe it or
    not, both he and she ARE police.  I've filed a complaint with my
    solocitor (cost lots of money) but there's no more I can do now
    until one of the cats ends up hurt.
    
    Don't people like these make you sick??
    
    
    If any of you have any ideas what I could do (short of getting my
    nieghbours with an airgun before they get the cats) I'd be really
    pleased.
    
    
    Jess
    
    

    	How often do the attacks occur?  If they are pretty regular,
    I say you should make a deal with your neighbors that you'll keepp
    your cats in for a long enough period of time to determine if your
    cat is responsible for the attacks.  This gains you several things.
    1) If an attack occurs, proof of innocence and if your neighbors
    are at all reasonable, an easing of your relationship since you
    were willing to help.  2) Your cats are safe from their abuse. 
    (Yeah I know they'll be unhappy for a few days while inside, but
    they'lll calm down after a bit.  Besides, unhappy is temporary,
    dead is forever.) 
    
    	Just remember, you THINK your cat couldn't have done this but
    you can't prove it.  Think how you would feel if a dog were attacking your
    kitties but the owners refused to believe that "Poopsie" could do
    such a thing.  Realize that if these people are bird people, it's
    probably true that they have not had much experience with cats and
    don't know the limitations of their strength like you do.  (Therefor
    they may think that you are just refusing to consider that your
    precious cat could do such a thing.)  Personally, I don't see how
    any cat short of a bobcat could do but...
    
    tlh
    

    I agree with Mike and Tracey that you should keep your cats in
    at least until you've proved their innocence.
    I also fail to believe that a cat could kill and behead an owl
    through a wire mesh or even without a wire mesh. The owl would
    be more apt to kill the cat!
    We have had chickens and ducks for 6 years and never once had
    any problem with of cats going after them except once. In that
    case (as I've related in another note) it was just fledged baby
    ducks without a mother to protect them.
    Cats generally kill by breaking the neck and then usually start
    eating at the belly. The kind of killing you describe is more
    like that of a skunk (I had one that killed several of my
    chickens that way) a weasel, or a fisher. Since a weasel is too
    small to take on an owl, and fishers are relatively rare except
    in very heavily wooded areas I'd bet the villan is a skunk. The
    same one that killed my chickens once ripped open a rabbit hutch
    through hardware cloth and ate the mother and two babies.
    
    I also agree that if you are on bad terms with your neighbors
    the chances of convincing that it was something else are small.
    Perhaps if you volunteered to rent a Havahart trap and see what
    it caught? (That was how we finally got rid of the skunk.)
                                                              
    Sort of an aside - I once had a neighbor that always hasseled me
    about my dogs even tho I was making great efforts to keep them in
    and there were many other neighborhood dogs running around loose.
    She once even called me up to have me clean some dog feaces off
    her back step! since I knew that my dogs hadn't been out that day
    and I rather doubted (given the local evidence) that they'd go that
    far (.5 mile) just to use her steps I declined! It turned out that
    1. she was a little nutty in general and feuded with almost every
    one else in the neighborhood and 2. she was very bent out of shape
    about the fact that we have mixed race kids and was using the dogs
    as a way to harras us. I was awfully glad when she divorced her
    husband and moved away. I hope you are able to come to an accomidation
    with your neighbors without anything extreme happening. If you
    are at all religious I've found that praying for the situation
    works.
    Bonnie

	[RE .11]

		I can't speak for all huntsman (and neither can you), and 
although I have done no hunting I have considered "entering" the sport. To 
clear the air, I have met many people who hunt and not one of them was on a 
"power kick" to prove their superiority to animals. There are many reasons why 
people hunt, with man's encroachment on nature it has become a NECESSITY in 
some areas (when properly managed).

	As for shooting cats, there's not much one can do when they let their 
cats run free (I by the way have 3 cats that our allowed to run free but so 
far (thank god) I haven't experienced any difficulties). Not all neighbors are 
reasonable and not all circumstances are clear. If I raised "precious birds" 
and there was a marauding animal on my property I would definitely take 
actions to stop the animal. In many communities "farmers" have a *right* to 
defend their property in such ways (a waiver in the usual "no discharge of 
firearms in city limits" rules), and rightly so. But as for a cat posing a 
significant threat... Is your cat greater than 30 pounds??? I doubt it. 

	I would say a BB gun problem can be mostly attributed to kids 
(typically young boys, I know I was one of them). Shooting cats with BB's is 
right up there with pulling the wings off of flies and burning ants with a 
magnifying glass. It's not a mode of behaviour easily understood but I 
remember doing it. We usually limited our "shots" to 1 or two pumps since we 
never intended to "hurt" the animal much.

	Now before getting swamped with "you were a sick child" replies I'd 
like to point out that I was 8 years old at the time and alot has changed 
since then (at least I hope...). Looking back I am quite puzzled as to why I 
did such things (I think it was twinkies) but I've mended my ways. Hey how do 
you handle a "cat-killing-8-year-old-boy" ??? Same way you handle the 
"cat-killing-dogs" ???


/harry

    RE .16
    
    There may be many reasons why people hunt, but the fact remains
    that the "sport" is archaic.  To keep the subject on cats, I can't
    think of one valid reason for shooting a cat.  I believe any person
    with any brains could find an alternative solution.
    
    Also:
    
    >>>Shooting cats with BB's is right up there with pulling the wings
    >>>off of flies and burning ants with a magnifying glass.
    
    Being a mammal myself, I see a great difference between a cat and
    an insect.
    
    -Jim-
    

    Thanks for all your replies.  I think I'll try out Tracey's idea
    and keep Ifor and Iddy in for a bit, to see if the attacks stop.
    The thing is, the attacks are very infrequent, and only happen every
    few months, therefore if I keep the cats in and there's no more
    attacks, they'll assume it's the cats doing the attacking, even
    if its not.  I don't see how I can win!
    
    I'm 100% certain it wasn't the cats - even Ifor couldn't swallow
    an owl's head whole - so I'll try and persuade my neighbours that
    it wasn't them.  They're on holiday for 2 weeks, so we've got some
    peace for the time being.
    
    Thanks Bonnie for the suggestion it may have been a skunk or a fisher,
    but we don't get those in England.  Aren't we lucky - we don't get
    porcupines either!! A definite bonus if you've got a dog, by the
    looks of the porcupine complaints in the canine notes file!  I'm
    sure it's a fox, so if I can persuade my neighbours, maybe we'll
    be able to call a truce.
    
    I'm hoping I can sort out the problem with the moggies - my main
    problem at the moment is the hamster - he's allergic to the dog!
    
    Aren't animals a pain?  I wouldn't part with mine for anything tho.
                                                                    
    Jess
    

    There are porcupines around here; I've seen a few.  I don't think
    one would have any reason to attack an owl, though!  I think they
    are vegetarian (eat tree bark?).  It is really unlikely to be your
    poor cats, too!
    
    Good luck!

    RE .17
    
    *There may be many reasons why people hunt, but the fact remains
    *that the "sport" is archaic.

	Well you're entitled to YOUR opinion...
    

	My reference to "shooting cats with BB guns is right up there with 
torturing insects" was descriptive of the behaviour involved in the action, not 
a comparison of "value". Not to many 8 year old boys I knew were deep into 
philosophy (bad neighborhood I guess...). 

	I think as long as one lets their animals roam free (and I state once 
again I do) there is a certain element of risk. Some people may find this risk 
unacceptable, others do not. My cats will always be outdoor cats.

/harry

    *Don't* start this again.
    
    It's quite obvious that some of us think that yes, we do have the right
    to make such decisions, whereas others think that we don't. Let's
    accept that none of us want to cause our animals unnecessary suffering,
    but that we don't always agree on the precise boundaries.
    
    Incidentally, I think that "What right do you have" is one of the most
    inflammatory phrases there is. It seems to set a hostile and self-
    righteous tone right from the start, no matter what the speaker
    intended, and that is not conducive to a calm and open discussion.
    
    So please, can we talk about something else?
    
    -b

    re .18
    And I was *sure* it was a skunk! I didn't realize that you were
    writing from England. (I guess I tend to assuem unless there are
    obvious clues that people are all writing from the states.) Actually
    the fact that there are writers from all over the world is one of
    the things I like best about notes. I have had fox problems  here
    but they just take the whole animal and disappear with it.
    Bonnie

    RE: .22
    
    Agreed.  
    
    -Jim-

[RE .21]

	How did we get from warnings about animal abuse to a sermon on "how to
raise your cat"??? Open another note if you want to discuss it... 

/harry

    I have a story about cats attacking other animals for you.  Our
    cats are indoor cats.  They weren't always, but one of them was
    hit by a car and we couldn't face having that happen again so they
    all came indoors.
    
    Anyway, on with the story.  Winston is the curious kind of cat.
    Always up to something and always in some kind of trouble.  He is
    too smart for his own good.  He was never allowed outside, even
    before Harrison was hit by a car, because of the trouble he might
    cause us.  We live in a condo with close neighbors and he is just
    the type of cat that would annoy them.  We are the only family allowed
    to have pets in our development and we can't have them going around
    making enemies of our neighbors.
    
    One afternoon this past summer, Winston let himself out for a stroll.
    He knows how to open the sliding screen door and let himself out.
    At the time that this happened we didn't know he could let himself
    out.  I was in the kitchen and I heard this awful screaming coming
    from the farmers field behind our backyard.  I went to the fence
    and looked over and couldn't believe my eyes!
    
    There was Winston attacking a *rooster*!!  Not a chicken, a rooster!
    
    The rooster was missing a big patch of feathers from the area around
    its neck and there were feathers everywhere, in Winston's mouth,
    caught in his fur, on the ground.  He was repeatedly lunging at
    the roosters throat, trying for the jugular, I guess.  He wanted
    to kill that huge bird.
    
    I yelled at him to stop, but of course he couldn't hear me over
    the noise the rooster was making.  He had managed to half cripple
    it by biting at one leg.  I climbed over the fence and had to drag
    him off of it!  He clawed at me, trying to get back to the rooster.
    My heart was pounding.  I climbed back over the fence and ran into
    the house and got a pillow case and came back out again.  I had
    to put Winston into the pillowcase in order to get him back into
    the house.
    
    I went to talk to the farmer and explained what happened.  He was
    mad!  I offered to replace the rooster if it didn't survive and
    to pay for any vet bills.  The rooster recovered (and wakes us up
    promptly at dawn every morning to remind us of what our cat tried
    to do to him) and I never had to pay any vet bills so I assume that
    he hadn't been injured too badly.
    
    Winston has never done anything like this again.  We have locks
    on our screen doors now to keep him in.
    
    Whenever I think about this incident I am reminded of a far side
    cartoon I saw once... two spiders build a web across a playground
    slide, one of them says to the other as a child approaches "if we
    pull this off, we'll eat for days" or something like that.
    
    JoAnn 
    

    re: the headless birds
    
    We've always had cats (Mom hating the idea of getting mice in the
    house) and where I grew up (N.J. shore) there were always lots of
    ducks, seagulls etc. 
    
    One of the cats, Mozart (he walked up and down the piano keyboard
    all the time....), regular mutt-cat, but about 18 lbs during
    his prime, did catch a duck (and from what we could tell) a very
    healthy duck. He had brought it home with him with most of the duck
    weight slung over his back. When my mother saw him, she throw water
    at him and he opened his mouth - enough that the duck was able to
    fly away, honking like crazy but apparently unhurt.
    
    Somehow I can't imagine a cat "pulling the head" off of something,
    breaking its neck, yes, but the other is just not their style! (my
    opinion of course)
    
    janet b.

    Thank God for people who do something about cruelty to animals.
    Look at what has been done about the whales and seals, etc.  We
    can make a difference.  How can anyone let things like this happen
    when they have an opportunity to put a stop to it.  These poor animals
    can protect themselves.  We must all do what we can.     

    
    re: .8 and 4 years later -  I take SERIOUS exception with anyone 
    feeling it is okay to shoot a cat that's on their property because 
    it doesn't have a collar.  I totally believe in collars and I.D.
    tags on all cats but...
    
    My cats had safety collars for awhile - with I.D. tags - (they have 
    elastic in the middle so the cat can escape if I dog or fence gets 
    hold of the collar) and the cats quickly learned how to take the
    collars off themselves.  Needless to say, the cats were without
    a collar until I got their old leather collars out and put them
    back on.  Still, even if a cat never wears a collar, nobody has
    a right to shoot it.  I would love to say, "Smokey, Odie, this
    red flag is our boundry line - be good girls and don't cross it".
    But that doesn't work.  My cats stay in my yard most of the time
    when I let them out, but if they go to a neighbors and the neighbor
    doesn't want them there, I'd prefer they spray them with the hose.
    
    Despite my incredible love for cats, there is something I find hard
    to tolerate - my neighbors male comes over and sprays the sliders,
    (and I don't mean with a hose) which bothers me tremendously.  If 
    I happen to catch him, I spray him with water.  I WOULD NEVER SHOOT 
    HIM (he has no collar).  Granted, I'm tempted to "fix" him myself 
    right then and there, but let's be realistic.  No cat (or cat owner) 
    deserves to have their cat shot because they did not put a collar on it.
                          
    The only time my cat "teased" a dog is when the neighbors put up
    a fence and left about 8" between the bottom of the fence and the
    ground.  Their dog was sticking his head under the fence and Odie
    became interest.  The neighbor got mad and told us, "Get Odie, she
    is antagonizing the dog".  Well what nerve.  It was her dog who
    was sticking his head (and half his body) under the fence and onto
    our property.  I was neighborly and decided not to start something
    with the person, so I just took Odie to the back yard.  Other than
    this, I don't typically see cats intentionally bothering dogs.
    
    dlm            
    

    Another late addition--
    While I absolutely have to disapprove (well, if anyone asked me)
    of people shooting, killing, torturing, etc. animals for fun, something
    a lot of us seem to be forgetting is that we eat meat!  That's not
    truly necessary with modern technology.  As for hunting, I wouldn't
    be able to myself, some hunters use the meat (I know, I know, a
    lot are just out there to bag the furry animal) and most are involved
    in preservation of species which would starve with no natural
    predators, and not just by being artificial predators (game preserves,
    etc.)  From what I've read, there may be reactions to this barbaric
    rational, but the point is we're all a little bit hypocrits at some
    level.  
    About cats getting shot--it's beyond me why anyone would do such
    a thing, even with one of those practical hypocritical motives.
    I wouldn't put it past a farmer with a chicken coop.  It is also
    a common, inexpensive form of population control on farms where
    cats are abandoned by people who figure cats can fend for themselves
    there.  The people I despise more than the farmers who do this are
    the people who force them into the situation by leaving their cats.
     Who do they think they're fooling?  The farm owner isn't going
    to feed four dozen cats, and certainly not neuter them, but he's
    stuck with fifty animals that will die in the winter anyway.
    Well, that was my two cents' worth.  Time to get off the soapbox.
    
    LDA

    Re .30: Well, I get your point, but I don't really find it hypocritical
    to differentiate between killing animals for food or clothing and
    killing them for the pleasure of watching them die. The thing that
    scares me about some of the cat-hating I've heard of is that it seems
    totally irrational, practically a gut-level urge to destroy the
    animals, over and above simple (?) cruelty. In fact, I remember reading
    that the three "primordial" fears of mankind are of spiders, the dark -
    and cats. (Why this should be so I don't know, but it does seem that
    cats have always evoked very strong feelings from humans, both positive
    and negative.)
    
    Now, someone who eats beef but who cries out in horror at the thought
    of a person actually butchering "that sweet brown-eyed cow" - *that*
    person is being a wee bit hypocritical, or at least squeamish. 
    
    Waxing philosophical: I sometimes find it ironic that we dote on our
    cats - call them by pet names and spoil them and rearrange our lives
    for their sakes, consider them sweet and pretty and delicate - and all
    the while, cats are perhaps the most finely-honed predators in the
    world, creatures which were *made* to hunt and kill. The contrast
    between the warm, furry body purring next to me, and the taut, eager
    hunter bringing doom upon a hapless mouse - this is one of the many
    fascinating things about cats. And, in my opinion, to really love cats,
    one must accept them for what they are. 

    Just rambling,
    -b

    My response about eating meat was sort of a result of recent thoughts/
    discussions about what we consider food animals and what some other
    people consider food animals (as opposed to pets).  Most people
    I know who would shoot a cat would simply because they consider
    cats vermin (like mice).  I do recall a few classmates from younger
    days, whom I never understood on that count.
    What I'd like to complain about at the moment in a little more depth
    is abandonment (there's probably another topic somewhere for this,
    but I haven't gotten to it yet, as a new notes user.)  One family
    of my acquaintance owned four unspayed females.  (One of our cats
    is a result of the situation.)  Unfortunately, all four had littered
    at once, none of them for the first time.  The mother (human) within
    a few weeks decided that this was no way to run a house, messy,
    and she couldn't place the kittens (probably not feed them either,
    I'm not sure).  Spaying probably never crossed her mind (too expensive,
    although if the family had spayed their first cat years earlier,
    they would now still have one, and only one, the other three adults
    being offspring of previous litters.)  The four mothers and all
    the kittens were abandoned on a farm, which I found out a few years
    later; everyone else heard they'd been sold to a pet store.  Barn
    cats on commercial farms of any kind have very short lifespans.
    They had heard things to this effect, and the children mostly were
    young enough to believe their parents' contradictions of these stories.
    What struck me was the shunning of responsibility, the immense
    unfairness to the cats.  If anyone reading this has ever thought
    of leaving any number of cats on a farm, DON'T.  If you no longer
    want the responsibility of caring for your pet, you at least owe
    it to the animal (All right, I believe animals raised in homes by
    people who care for them at all have a few rights, cats, cows, or
    chickens.) TO FIND IT A HOME.  No matter what you think you can
    convince yourself of, cats on dairy farms don't live on cream.

    re:.8
    
    I'm aware that this is a little late, but did it ever occur to you
    that just maybe, cats would not scratch children if they learned
    not to tease (i.e. tail pulling, poking cats with sticks, etc.) them
    and just left the cat alone, I'm fairly certain that the cat(s)
    are not laying in wait to attack children.
    
    Have you ever owned a dog that managed to slip his collar, would
    you want someone to shoot him?  Shooting an animal because it is not 
    wearing a collar; do you really think that punishing the animal
    in this manner (due to an accident or an owners laziness in getting
    the animal a collor) is the answer?  

    
    I don't know if the experience really rates the description of
    traumatic, because I doubt any lasting psychological damage was
    done. But I just turned 35, so the incident is at least 29-years
    old - I was still living in the house where I was born. I remember
    like it was last week. I was 5 or 6 at the time. After swimming
    at the local MDC pool, my brother, a cousin, a friend and I rummaged
    around in the brushy woods, on a hill near the pool. A ton of 
    discarded boxes, some with the contents strewn all over the hill,
    was heavily littering the area. I remember my brother pointing to
    a cardboard box with flies buzzing around it. The friend in the
    group, Skippy, was the oldest in the group, probably about 11 or 
    12, said "Wait" at the same time my brother said, "Stephen, see what's 
    in that box." Skippy scared me, and I backed off. Skippy was old
    enough to note the flies and sense something bad. He opened the
    box. In the box was a black and white cat that had been shot about
    100 to 150 times. He was redish-brown with dried blood. He's been
    shot on every square inch of his body. 
    
    There are some sick, sick people out there. Believe it. Also, I
    know because I've seen the remnants, not far from the same place,
    that people really do skin cats... for fun.
    
    

    What was the purpose of putting .34 in this file?  How about deleting
    it?
    

    I second -1, moderator where are you?
    
    Kate

    Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I thought from scanning this
    topic that a lot of people doubted the existence of animal abusers,
    cat haters, whatever. At any rate, I apologize to anyone who is
    sickened by my anecdote. In which case, I third the motion, delete
    it.

Re Note 46.36 by SUBURB::TUDORK 

>    I second -1, moderator where are you?
    
The moderators are here and watching entries in the file.  We have
stated rules about what types of entries will be deleted in note 1
and, frankly, that note didn't fit those criteria.

Actually, reading what Kim Robbins had to say about this in note 82.21
very well sums up my feelings on the subject and she stated it better
than I think I could have.

If the readership of this conference wants the moderators to act more
in the role of censor and delete entries that might be upsetting, let's
take that discussion to the note on moderation of this conference (632)
and discuss it there.

Pam

    Personally, I don't like the scene painted in the debated reply
    but do not want to see it used to set a precedent for deleting
    notes.
    
    Life ain't pretty. Making it *appear* such lessens the liklihood of
    anyone actually doing something...
    
    Conversely, I hope it doesn't start a rash of abuse notes.
    
    Let it be.
    
    Edd

    I agree with the moderator and .39.  The crazies are out there
    and you all talk about finding dumped cats/abused cats etc.
    This is just a more graphic example of that craziness.  There
    is a key on the keyboard built just for this sort of thing.  If
    you find a note you don't like just hit the "next unseen" key.
    
      Ken and Lucky

    Re 46.36                                            
                                                        
    My purpose in putting in the note agreeing with Karen was not to
    imply that the moderators did not do a good job in monitoring this
    conference.  It was more to ask their opinion.       
                                                        
    I still feel that the note was unnecessarily graphic - we're talking
    about something that happened a long time ago - I agree that it
    still goes on, you just have to read the papers, but question the
    need for it to be quite so upsettingly represented in this conference.
                                                        
    The last thing I want to do is to flame the originator of the basenote.
    The cats out there need all the help we can give them collectively
    and if it helped to exorcise some of the horror the person felt,
    then fine.  We all get on pretty well most of the time in here and
    if the originator felt that I made a personal attack on them then
    I apologise unreservedly.                           
    
    Best regards
    
    Kate
           
    
   

    NICHOLE,
    
    I'M SORRY ABOUT YOUR CAT.  THERE ARE ALOT OF CUREL PEOPLE OUT THERE.
    JUST THE OTHER NIGHT I SAVED A 12 WEEK OLD KITTEN FROM BEING HIT
    BY A CAR.  SOMEONE HAD LEFT HER IN THE STREET, FULL OF FLEA,
    STARVATION, MITES, ETC.  I TOOK HER HOME TO MY HOUSE WHERE I HAVE
    TO 10 YEAR OLD CATS.  THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN OUTSIDE, AND I WILL NEVER
    LET THEM OUT FOR THE SIMPLE REASON SOME PEOPLE ARE SO CRUEL.  IF
    YOU KNOW OF ANYONE INTERESTED IN THIS BEAUTIFUL KITTEN PLEASE CONTACT
    ME AT DTN: 297-7413.  SHE IS BLACK AND WHITE, BEEN TO THE VETS,
    SHE IS FINE NOW, AND HAS HAD ALL HER SHOTS, WORMED, LOVED. SHE IS
    EXTREMELY LOVEABLE AND GRATEFUL THAT SOMEONE SAVED HER LIFE.  HOPE
    TO HEAR FROM YOU SOON.