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Conference caldec::antiquity

Title:ANTIQUITY
Notice:Noters, please read all of Topic 1 first
Moderator:MTWAIN::KLAES
Created:Sat Jul 25 1987
Last Modified:Tue Mar 04 1997
Last Successful Update:Sat Apr 26 1997
Number of topics:250
Total number of notes:4930

249.0. "Lighthouse of Alexandria" by ANNECY::HARRISON_N (neil Harrison) Fri Jan 10 1997 04:04

T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
249.1Web page of interestGAAS::TSUKMichael TsukFri Jan 10 1997 06:351
249.2PADNOM::MAILLARDDenis MAILLARDFri Jan 10 1997 09:2215
249.3statues on pharosANNECY::HARRISON_Nneil HarrisonMon Jan 13 1997 09:3148
249.4PRSSOS::MAILLARDDenis MAILLARDTue Jan 14 1997 01:4966
249.5from lighhouse to fortress.ANNECY::HARRISON_Nneil HarrisonTue Jan 14 1997 04:4717
249.6PRSSOS::MAILLARDDenis MAILLARDTue Jan 14 1997 07:0234
249.7PRSSOS::MAILLARDDenis MAILLARDWed Jan 15 1997 00:1696
249.8ANNECY::HARRISON_Nneil HarrisonThu Jan 16 1997 08:3930
249.9PRSSOS::MAILLARDDenis MAILLARDThu Jan 16 1997 09:1637
249.10PRSSOS::MAILLARDDenis MAILLARDTue Feb 11 1997 08:1515
    	I've recently been discussing the subject of this topic with Joe
    Gobbini (who's alive and well and now working at Raytheon). As I
    mentionned my entries in this note, he corrected me on two points:
    
    - There were Egyptians actually living in Alexandria. An entire
      quartier, called Rhakotis by the Greeks, was inhabited by them.
      But they were denied Alexandrian citizenship (as were the Jews).
    
    - Joe also mentionned that the Ptolemies were not the 30th dynasty.
      This number is the one of the last indigenous dynasty, the one that
      ended with Nectanebo II.
    
    	I actually haven't had time to check on these two points, but I
    believe Joe is most probably right.
    		Denis.
249.11When is an Alexandrian Greek an Egyptian?ANNECY::HARRISON_Nneil HarrisonWed Feb 12 1997 10:1726
Denis,

Although this has not a lot to do with the lighthouse, but the discussion has
been veering away from the lighthouse a bit anyway. Was Alexandria some sort of
semi-independant state, controlled by Greeks? (who did not allow native
Egyptians citizen status). Or did the native Egyptians lose their citizen status
throughout Egypt during the Ptolemaic era?

If the former is true, then it would seem very generous of the Ptolemy dynasty
to endow Alexandria with the library and the lighthouse. 

If the latter is true, it seems a little strange that the Ptolemy's would adopt
so much of the Egyptian culture (implicitly rejecting to a certain extent
helenism), but at the same time considering the Egyptians  themselves as not
even worthy of citizenship.

Was this split society more or less healed by the Roman administration, which
tended to promote citizenship of wealthy and influential natives in the
provinces, or did it filter down to the present day - I have heard that the
copts are considered to be descendants of the early egyptians.

Neil.

PS I am very glad that Joe, through you, has been able to add to  his valuable
contributions in this notesfile.

249.12PADNOM::MAILLARDDenis MAILLARDThu Feb 13 1997 02:06101
    Re .11: Neil, I'm afraid it's much more complicated than the either/or
    two-side possibilities that you outlined here.
    
    	The Ptolemies were the Macedonian Greek heirs to Alexander, who
    conquered Egypt and was recognised as its pharaoh and as son of
    Zeus-Amon, despite the fact that he remained culturally Greek and that
    his empire was way, way larger than just Egypt.
    
    	Alexandria was a Greek city, founded by Alexander, where only the
    Greeks had citizenship rights (although it had an important Jewish
    population from the origin).
    
    	Alexandria was the Ptolemies' capital and usual residence. Their
    palace was beside the harbour.
    
    	The Ptolemaic empire at its beginning was much larger than just
    Egypt: Cyprus, Lybia, part of the Greek Aegean islands and part of
    Palestine were originally included in it, although it slowly shrunk
    till only Egypt was left in Julius Caesar's time.
    
    	There was a lot of Greek colonies (cities that were founded or
    refounded as Greek) all throughout Egypt, where native Egyptians had no
    citizenship rights.
    
    	The two populations were following different ways of life, were
    kept as separated as possible (the Greeks trying as much as they could
    to keep their Hellenic habits, ways, language, religion, civilisation,
    you name it,... drowned as they were in the middle of the Egyptian
    population) and were subject to different laws. The Egyptians were
    still subject to the old Egyptian law, followed the old Egyptian
    religion, whose temples and clergy was still in place, and obeyed to
    the pharaoh, who also happened to be the Hellenistic king (Macedonian
    style) of the Greek population. The Greeks were subject to the Greek
    law that did not apply to the autochtone population.
    
    	Nevertheless, during the nearly three centuries of Ptolemaic rule,
    evolution took place and a (small) bit of assimilation took place
    between the two groups.
    
    	It would take hours to discuss this subject. I can only recommend
    you to read Rostovtsev's Socio-Economical History of the Hellenistic
    World (composed long after, and much bigger than his Socio-Economical
    History of the Roman World). It does not only include the Ptolemaic
    empire, but also Macedonia, Greece and the Seleucid empire, and is one
    of the fundamental books on the subject.
    
    	As for your question about the Roman rule in Egypt, I'll just
    mention a few facts:
    
    - Long before Caesar, Egypt had gone nearly bankrupt and was
      financially in the hands of Roman "banking" adventurers (pirates or
      looters would probably be better words, at least closer to the
      truth).
    
    - Starting with Augustus, Egypt was an imperial province, not a
      senatorial one, directly administered by the emperor and his own men
      rather than by governors named by the senate.
    
    - Egypt was considered as one of the most important provinces of the
      empire, as it provided (along with Africa -i.e. present day Tunisia-,
      only Egypt produced much more) the "annona". The annona was the wheat
      used for the free (or nearly free) distributions of food to the
      population of Rome ("panem et circenses": bread and games; Egypt
      provided most of the bread). These distributions, which lasted as
      long as the empire and continued in Byzantium as long as Byzantium
      kept control of Egypt, were the only mean that the emperors had to
      prevent a general uprising of the famished population in their
      capital. Egypt was indeed to be exploited to the utmost of its
      resources to feed the innumerable empty bellies in Rome and
      Byzantium and keep them satisfied.
    
    - As a consequence, the Egyptian population largely welcomed the Arab
      conquest which finally got them free from the Roman-Byzantine
      occupation (the Arabs were in no position to milk the country as much
      as their predecessors, plus in Muslim time the rulers of the country
      more often than not inhabited it instead of residing in a far away
      city). Alexandria lost much of its importance at this period, as the
      Muslim capital of the country became Cairo.
    
    About the Copts, they're as much the descendants of the ancient
    Egyptians as most of the rest of the population. They are those who
    chose to remain Christians rather than becoming Muslims. Only, they are
    not Orthodox Christians, but Monophysites (also called sometimes
    Jacobites, an heresy about the double or single nature of Christ, not
    to be confused with the British Jacobites supporters of the Stuarts).
    ;^) Even before the Arab conquest, most of the Egyptian Christians had
    turned Monophysites, mostly to differentiate themselves from the hated
    Greek Orthodox foreign (Byzantine) rulers of the country. What is true
    is that their religious language, Coptic, is the evolution of the
    ancient Egyptian language. It's mainly through his hypothesis that
    Coptic (a language he knew as well as Greek) was derived from ancient
    Egyptian that Champollion succeeded in deciphering the hieroglyphic
    script with the help of the Rosetta stone. Coptic is now all but dead,
    its only use being in the old religious books of the Copts, who have
    long been all Arabian speakers.
    
    I don't think that you can trace any specific part of the present
    population of Egypt to the Greek colonists of the Ptolemaic period,
    they've been either eliminated or assimilated.
    
    		Denis.