Conference back40::soapbox

    
    speaking of Melissa Etheridge, she's living with the ex-wife of some
    actor, but I can't remember who. He was in Parade magazine last
    weekend.
    Pretty embarrasing having your wife leave you for another woman.

    Why?  No less so than for another man.  Although personally, I'd have
    to take a long hard look at myself before laying blame on anyone else.

    
    I knew a guy whose partner left him for another woman. Except that his
    partner was a man.
    
    It takes all sorts...

    Lou Diamond Phillips

Someone I know has been ordered out of the house by August 31st, which
will open the way for his wife to move her lesbian lover in.  Wife and
lesbian lover have hired New Hampshire's "best gay rights attorney" and
have already declared to the court that the wife's reason for seeking a
divorce is that she discovered after ten or so years of marriage that
she was a lesbian and prefers to live with her new lover.

Husband and both sets of grandparents are also working to get the best
possible lawyers, because none of them want the two children brought
up in a lesbian household.  The wife's parents are totally aghast at
the dramatic change in their daughter's whole outlook on life, the
universe, and everything.

/john

    and then a big black foot squashed them?

    Scream!

In addition to the person mentioned in .1822, one of New Hampshire noterdom's
most outspoken liberals is also going through a divorce from a nouveau lesbo.
Or is that a nouvelle lesbelle?

/john

| <<< Note 58.1818 by ACISS1::BATTIS "Future Chevy Blazer owner" >>>


| Pretty embarrasing having your wife leave you for another woman.

	It wouldn't be so bad if the wife left for another man? You'd still be
the one left alone regardless of the situation! Some people....

	Seeing the words, "Gender Confusion" in a John Covert note. How ironic.

    <--- why dat?

| <<< Note 58.1828 by ACISS2::LEECH >>>

| <--- why dat?

	He is definitely confused by genders. :-)

It's certainly my greatest weakness with the German and French languages.

/john

    >Lou Diamond Phillips
    
    The inventor of the phillips screwdriver, which consists of vodka and
    milk of magnesia.
    
    Which brings up another question:  What's a magnesia, and how do you
    milk one?

    send it in to dr. science, I'm sure he'd know.

>    Which brings up another question:  What's a magnesia, and how do you
>    milk one?

You'll have to ask Bill Haley his M.O. for milking magnesia.

    >Bill Haley
    
    Is that the guy with the Comets?
    
    Imagine a group of musicians consisting of one person and a whole bunch
    of reindeer all of which have the same name.  I wonder how they do that

RE:       <<< Note 58.1818 by ACISS1::BATTIS "Future Chevy Blazer owner" >>>

    
   > speaking of Melissa Etheridge, she's living with the ex-wife of some
   > actor, but I can't remember who. He was in Parade magazine last
   > weekend.
   > Pretty embarrasing having your wife leave you for another woman.


  I know someone going through this right now, and it is much worse than
  embarrassing..



 Jim 

    A family member of mine, sort of, went through this.  She was the
    leaver vs. the leavee.  Stepmom was beside herself with grief and
    handwringing.  Some folks just cannot let go.  One more reason I am
    glad I live here and not there.  

        Here, as in this dimension?

    Here, as in the Alpha quadrant.

    Your relatives are phage carrying Vidians are they?

    re: .1825
    
    My heart goes out to both of them.  It's a no-win situation.  Stay
    married and the woman lives a lie - assuming she could continue to live
    as if nothing had changed.  Divorce and the man loses the love of his life.
    
    I do believe that the divorce is the lessor of the two evils.
    
    Bob

    .1818
    
    Why would that be embarassing... it happens all the time and it
    destroys families and breaks hearts, but why would it be embarassing?

	He hasn't answered that one, or other questions yet, Nancy. Maybe he is
at the vending machine for an all day conference? :-)

	raq....GREAT condom joke!

>    I do believe that the divorce is the lessor of the two evils.

So where do I sign up to lease two evils?

    
    .1850
    
    what other questions haven't I answered Glen? If I was married and my
    wife left me for another woman I would be embarassed. What is so hard
    to follow??

  I would think it would actually be _less_ embarrassing if your
  spouse realized that he or she was homosexual and left you because
  of that.  Assuming it would be embarrassing at all, that is.

    I know of a person (man) in Europe who had a sex change then was mad at
    his wife for not wanting to stay married to him!  Duh! That kinda would
    make her a lesbian if she had sex with her(him). Something she
    obvoiusly was not nor did not want to be.

  .1861  Had she left him for another man, he would have been
	 okay with that?

Maybe it's something like, "How could I have been so stupid as to not realize
that he/she was homosexual?"

>  <<< Note 58.1864 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >>>

	That assumes that the homosexual knew that he/she was homosexual
	too, doesn't it?  Or bi-, or whatever.

Not necessarily.  In some ways, Dick knows his wife Jane better than Jane
knows herself.  At least that's my experience (and it works both ways).

    I wouldn't know which way to turn.

    I had a friend whose wife left him for a woman. He went nuts. He
    thought he was deficient somehow.

    
    The difference to me is, you can't "compete" if your spouse leaves you
    for someone of the same sex.
    

  I guess it all depends.  I've seen a case where a husband and wife
  had three children and the woman eventually realized she was
  homosexual, but neither of them knew it until then.  Nothing to
  be embarrassed about, I wouldn't think.  

    |.1861  Had she left him for another man, he would have been
    |okay with that?

    okay, probably wouldn't be the right word. He could understand if she
    found another man to be more than what he was but it was harder for him
    to understand how a woman would be more than what he was. 

>         <<< Note 58.1870 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "Ranch send no girl" >>>

	but it's not a case of someone being "more" than what you are,
	is it really?  they're very _different_ from what you are.

    
    well anyway, Lou Diamond Phillips has recovered nicely. He's dating
    a musician, Kelly Preston. no relation to John Travolta's wife of the
    same name.

Kelly Preston used to be Robert Preston afore he changed his tune...

    
    	RE: .1872
    
    	I love a happy ending.
    
    	Wait a minute ... wasn't she dating Drew Barrymore last year?
    

    
    .1874
    
    no no. try and keep up will you. It was Sarah Bernhard

    
    	Sarah Bernhard[sic] and "keep up" shouldn't be used in the same
    	sentence.
    

{retch}

| <<< Note 772.27 by ACISS1::BATTIS "Future Chevy Blazer owner" >>>


| what other questions haven't I answered Glen? If I was married and my
| wife left me for another woman I would be embarassed. What is so hard
| to follow??

	Because it doesn't make sense. Why would you be embarrassed if she left
you for another woman, but not for another man?



Glen

    
    i would rather have her leave for another man than a woman.

| <<< Note 772.38 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "Ranch send no girl" >>>

| He could understand if she found another man to be more than what he was but 
| it was harder for him to understand how a woman would be more than what he was

	That's understandable. I've seen people leave same sex for oppisite.
It's hard to understand, and as Deb said, it seems impossible to compete with
the other person. But in the end, you have the same results. The person left
you for someone else. If the person realizes who they are, then they shouldn't
wait for a different lover to come around before they do something about it. 
Having a different lover while you're in a relationship and/or marriage is
wrong. (to *me*)  


Glen

| <<< Note 772.47 by ACISS1::BATTIS "Future Chevy Blazer owner" >>>


| i would rather have her leave for another man than a woman.

	I hear you say that, but all I am asking is why?


Glen

    Glen:
    
    If you reeeeally believe in the institution of marriage...until death
    do us part, then leaving a marriage because one is gay is a lame and
    spineless excuse.  Personally, I also have a problem with this other
    meeley excuse..."Well I just don't love her anymore/I just don't want
    to be married anymore/I just want to be good friends, (insert
    completely wimpy spineless voice here).
    
    It has been mentioned here that if a gay person is married to a
    straight person, then they are living a lie.  This is bullcrap.  The
    love can certainly still be there or it can grow to be there.  
    The word "can't" simply does not exist today.  It should be replaced
    with the word won't!  
    
    I can't love my wife		I won't love my wife
    I can't work at making her happy	I won't work at making her happy
    
    No...what I am hearing here is the canned response.  Honey, we've had
    some good times but the vow I made to you is a lie and you aren't worth
    the effort.  No balls...cop out.
    
    -Jack

        When you've always measured yourself against one sex, it's very
    difficult to measure yourself against the opposite, wouldn't you say?

>    No...what I am hearing here is the canned response.  Honey, we've had
>    some good times but the vow I made to you is a lie and you aren't worth
>    the effort.  No balls...cop out.

You mean like Dole and Newt?

    Wow, how easy it is to belittle another's journey when you haven't
    walked the mile.  Nice simplistic platitude.  "Just try harder."  Hint,
    buy a clue.  

    
    	RE: .51
    
    	If you're a male, hopefully your penis is longer.
    
    	Besides that, you're right.
    

ZZ    You mean like Dole and Newt?
    
    Exactly...just like Dole and Newt.
    
    Brian, my exhortations are directed at people who simply lack the spine
    to stick with what they got into.  I realize some tote a hard road and
    I don't direct this at people who for example come from abusive
    situations.  I speak of somebody who leaves a whole family for the
    simple reason they don't feel natural or good doing the horizontal bop
    with their spouse.  I don't relate.
    
    Sorry but your bed partner and your contentment should be secondary or
    last on the list to how you are bringing up your children.  Part time
    parents is not the most ideal situation.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 772.50 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>


| If you reeeeally believe in the institution of marriage...until death do us 
| part, then leaving a marriage because one is gay is a lame and spineless 
| excuse.  

	Jack.... where do you get this stuff? I said if someone leaves a
relationship and/or marriage for a LOVER, that it was bad. 

| It has been mentioned here that if a gay person is married to a straight 
| person, then they are living a lie. This is bullcrap.  

	No, and it should be pretty simple to prove with using you as an
example.

| The love can certainly still be there or it can grow to be there. The word 
| "can't" simply does not exist today. It should be replaced with the word 
| won't!

	Jack... tell me.... can you grow to love a man the same way you would
your wife? Is this a won't job, or one you think can happen?



Glen

| <<< Note 772.55 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| I speak of somebody who leaves a whole family for the simple reason they don't
| feel natural or good doing the horizontal bop with their spouse.  

	There is more to it than that, but you said it best when you said:

                              "I don't relate."

| Sorry but your bed partner and your contentment should be secondary or last 
| on the list to how you are bringing up your children.  

	Like you said... you don't relate!

    Yes...I don't relate.  I find it to be selfish.

| <<< Note 772.58 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Yes...I don't relate.  I find it to be selfish.

	No, you don't relate. Because if you did, you wouldn't say the things
you do.


Glen

    >>I speak of somebody who leaves a whole family for the simple 
    >>reason they don't feel natural or good doing the horizontal
    >>bop with their spouse.  
    
    being gay is not about having sex.
    
    
    >>Part-time parents is not the most ideal.
    
    but it certainly is better than parents who don't give a flying *. 
    i'd take a part-time parent over none at all.  calling my "mother" a
    part-time parent would have been too generous.  divorce doesn't
    necessarily have to sever your parenting abilities.  and just because
    you stick together in an unhealthy relationship doesn't make you parent
    of the year. 

    re: .26
    
    Nice catch, Gerald!
    
    Bob

 ZZZ     being gay is not about having sex.
    
    I realize that Raq; but I'm talking about commitment...an attribute
    seriously lacking in our society today.  Not to knock on our era
    exclusively...I realize this sort of trend has gone on since the
    beginning of time.  It just proves how weak and frail the human race
    really is.
    
    -Jack

    Being gay is about wearing pink frufrus and twirling about the
    neighbourhood.

    
    	Singing "Zippidy Doo Dah", I presume?
    

Uncle Remus was gay?

| <<< Note 772.62 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| ZZZ     being gay is not about having sex.

| I realize that Raq; 

	No, you don't. Or at least you didn't state that. You mentioned that
people were leaving to have sex with others (paraphrasing). Which is why I said
I agreed with you about you not getting it. 

| but I'm talking about commitment...

	Then why did you mention SEX in your replies as the FIRST thing you
talked about? If committment was really the thing, why wasn't that first? You
had the kids down the page, while leaving for sex was the first thing you
talked about. It took 2 notes to get to the kids.

	People aren't blind when it comes to you, Jack. :-)

Glen

| <<< Note 772.63 by POLAR::RICHARDSON "Ranch send no girl" >>>

| Being gay is about wearing pink frufrus and twirling about the
| neighbourhood.

	For me it is...yes. 

| <<< Note 772.64 by BUSY::SLAB "Your mother has an outie!!" >>>


| Singing "Zippidy Doo Dah", I presume?

	No...Abba tunes.

    
    	"Take a Chance On Me"
    	"Vu Lay Vu"
    
    	?
    

	Dancing Queen
	Mama Mia


		and of course the classic ballad:






                                   Fernando

	I received the following in mail..... I can't believe he would do such
a SICK thing!





From:	MKOTS3::JMARTIN      "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." 14-AUG-1996 16:09:38.32
To:	bigq::silva
CC:	
Subj:	Notefile SOAPBOX Note 772.69



           <<< BACK40::BACK40$DKA500:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SOAPBOX.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< Soapbox.  Just Soapbox. >-
================================================================================
Note 772.69                  Left for the Other Sex                     69 of 69
MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs."            33 lines  14-AUG-1996 16:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    	Ok Jack, what about couples that split that don't have 
    	children?  Your note a few back in regards to being
    	wimpy and spineless insults me.  If you have the perfect
    	marriage then fantastic for you.  Not all of us have and it
    	doesn't have to be abusive for it not to be working.
    
    	God, you can be so self-righteous sometimes it's positively
    	nauseating.
    
    	JJ
    

	JJ... he just doesn't use the part of his brain that understands logic.
Or he is just trying to get under people's skin on purpose....

    Typical HERBERT behaviour.

    First of all, I categorically deny Glen's .71.  Why would I ever stoop
    so low as to use such a disgusting snarf.  I ask all of you to check
    out .69 and see for yourselves that Glen is trying to frame me.  I told
    you he lies through his teeth!!!!
    
    -Jack

    <---- You should talk! HERBERT! HERBERT!

       Z     Ok Jack, what about couples that split that don't have 
       Z     children?  Your note a few back in regards to being
       Z     wimpy and spineless insults me.  If you have the perfect
       Z     marriage then fantastic for you.  Not all of us have and it
       Z     doesn't have to be abusive for it not to be working.
    
    JJ, I can see your perturbed and I'm sorry.  Let me tell you alittle
    bit about me.  If I had the perfect marriage then I don't feel I would
    be qualified to make such bold statements.  The fact is JJ, that I
    experience much of the same domestic disputes as most people do.  You
    know what it's like to be in a car...one hour from home getting the
    evil eye or the silent treatment from your SO?  Yes it
    happens...sometimes because I said something to somebody that really
    bothered her...or something I did...or whatever.  You know how hard it
    is for me to have the will power to control myself or for her to
    control herself in front of children who are taking everything in??  It
    is very Very difficult...especiall when you have a retort that could
    cause you to win the dispute.  There are plenty of times when Michele
    or I take a loooong walk...trust me JJ.  
    
    Marriage is an institution that is to last for life JJ.  It's a
    struggle for all of us so my attitude is not meant to be pompous.  I
    speak as one going through the struggle.  
    
    A gay man leaving his spouse to be with a lover is reprehensible.  
    
    -Jack

    How she could live with a HERBERT is beyond me.

re: .77 (JackM)

>    JJ, I can see your perturbed and I'm sorry.

But if she puts some make-up on, it covers it?

\john

    Actually, Jack is correct.  We treat VOWS to another human being as
    breakable even during the time of the commitment.  Take a look around
    today at the number of marriages that dissolved over I fell out of love
    with her/him... or I found someone else to love more... or they aren't
    tidy and I am and I just can't live another minute with that slob.
    
    It's disgusting the weakness in character displayed in our society
    today.
    
    

         The main problem is with our fast-food, MTV society. We no longer
    have any concept of permanence. We have no patience anymore to work
    through our problems. 

| <<< Note 772.80 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

| today at the number of marriages that dissolved over I fell out of love
| with her/him... or I found someone else to love more... or they aren't
| tidy and I am and I just can't live another minute with that slob.

	Nancy, what you described above is people who got married for the wrong
reasons, and it did not work out. In other words, they should have either
waited longer, look at the little signs, or just not get married. Of course
this doesn't cover 100% of the people. But it covers most I believe.

| It's disgusting the weakness in character displayed in our society today.

	I wish you would call it what it really was... a mistake. 


Glen

         Of course someone who wasn't religious might say is that marriage
    is essentially an outdated, meaningless ceremony. If this institution
    truly has outlived its usefulness, it's no wonder people are having
    more and more difficulty commiting themselves to life-long
    relationships. 

    
    speaking of this topic, last night's episode of Seinfeld dealt with
    George's ex-girlfriend who left him for another woman. The show was
    hilarious. Especially since Kramer wound up with the other woman, who
    had never been with a man before. I love that show.

    >> A gay man leaving his spouse to be with a lover is reprehensible.
    
    what about a gay man (or woman) who leaves because he (she) is gay???
    
    there you go again throwing sex into it....
    
    
    

	But raq.... he said it isn't about sex.. heh heh....

    I believe marriage is a highly advanced institution which says "I can
    and I will put my mind above my feelings". The problem with it is,
    unless society as a whole supports it it won't work. Another reason it
    doesn't work anymore is because women have made significant advances in
    society and are no longer dependent on men and marriage. Men could
    always cheat in the past, but it was much more difficult for women. And
    if a woman wanted a divorce, unless she was rich, she would become
    destitute.

    Blah blah blah, ramble ramble ramble.

    Believe it or not I've thought of this topic before.
    
    I would rather my husband tell me he is gay and is
    leaving me, not because I was not a good wife, but
    because he is in a relationship with someone from
    the wrong sex (me), his feelings are for the 
    someone of the opposite sex.
    
    This thought is not based on actual fact.   :-)
    
    On the other hand, since my self-opinion is that
    I am a good wife, if he came to me and said, "I
    don't want to be married anymore, because you
    [put a complaint here]."  I would like to think
    I would feel worse than the above senerio.
    
    With hope the above thought process makes sense.

If one's spouse left, claiming an incompatible sexual orientation, I could
see feeling a lot of things.

I could see feeling indignation, over having lived a lie with someone who
was apparently not truly commited to the relationship.

I could see feeling upset that the spouse isn't taking those wedding vows
seriously.

I could see feeling sorry or depressed over breaking off what may have been
a deeply loving relationship (at least in the first person).

I could see feeling some empathy for the spouse, and what they may have
gone through.

I could see feeling anger over what a broken family might do to the child
rearing process.

I could see feeling rejected, inadequate, jerked around and dumped upon.

Feeling embarassed is one that I just can't imagine.  Someone else's coming
out is a reflection on them (good, bad, or indifferent), not me.

    
    
    	I think I'll next unseen over this topic from now on.  Can't
    	deal with the judgment some of you seem to feel you have the 
    	right to make over other people's lives.
    
    
    

  .90  okay.

    The thought of someone marrying the one they love, then later deciding
    that they are gay, seems ridiculous.  I'd say something is wrong with
    that person.  And to not try and stick it out *at least* until any
    children were grown (unless the parent doesn't love the children, in
    which case the kids are likely better off without him/her), is
    reprehensible, IMO, and highly selfish.
    
    Sacrifice, oath and responsibility are a rare things these days, and
    have seemingly been repaced by the "me first" mentality.  Sad.
    
    
    -steve

    
    To paraphrase Henny Youngman, "Take my wife. Please, someone take my
    wife!"
    

>                      <<< Note 772.92 by ACISS2::LEECH >>>

>    The thought of someone marrying the one they love, then later deciding
>    that they are gay, seems ridiculous.  I'd say something is wrong with
>    that person. 

	Wow.  "Ridiculous"?  What do you mean by that?  That it's something
	that was done frivolously?

    <--- My slant on this was regarding a note a while back in which
    someone decides they are gay after being married for years - with
    children involved.
    
    Sorry, but something strikes me as being very strange about this
    situation - call it a intuitive/gut reaction; all of a sudden you realize 
    that you've been gay all those years (and decide to break up your
    family and leave for a gay lover - which is the "selfish" part of this
    story, IMO).  I don't buy into this "latent gay" rationale/excuse.
    
    
    -steve

    JJ:
    
    Our society needs to reevaluate what they stand for.  Judgement has
    little to do with it while observation has everything to do with it. 
    Children are victimized everyday by the stupidity of adults.  I
    honestly see us as screwing up a free lunch.  
    
    -Jack

An awful lot of people I've known haven't suddenly realized that they've
been gay.  It's often something they knew all along, but were trying like
h*** to deny.  It's often rationalized away by thinking "Well, if I get
married and settle down, these thoughts will go away."

They rarely do.  In fact, they usually get worse.  It usually reaches the
breaking point around 35-45 years old.  It usually has nothing to do with
the spouse.  Unfortunately, the spouse becomes a casualty of the person's
private struggle.  That much is sad.

    .95
    
    > I don't buy into this "latent gay" rationale/excuse.
    
    Of course you wouldn't.  You don't consider being gay anything other
    than a lifestyle choice.  If you would recognize that in some people it
    is a biological thing, cast in their genes, maybe it would make sense.
    
    Our society (by which I mean you and your ilk) says, solemnly and
    repeatedly (cf. Arthur Schlesinger, _Studies in Pessimism._), that
    being gay is evyl, and it's just a choice anyway.  So gay kids are
    impressed with the fallacy that they are of course really straights,
    and until they can come to terms later in life with what they really
    are, they will live the lie that you have forced on them.  You and your
    ilk are directly to blame for some percentage of broken marriages of
    this type.

 Z   Of course you wouldn't.  You don't consider being gay anything other
 Z   than a lifestyle choice.  If you would recognize that in some people it
 Z   is a biological thing, cast in their genes, maybe it would make sense.
    
    Horsehockey.  In my view, being gay is a choice for some but genetic
    for most.  However, there are many who take a vow of celibacy and
    though they have the exact same hormonal activity you do, they honor
    their word unto themselves and their God/god.  
    
    Espousing yourself to another is NO different, and it reeks of copout
    to say that I must leave wife and family because I just figured out I'm
    gay.
    
    -Jack

    
    <<<< ilk
    
    An animal with four legs and massive antlers. Word has it that ilk
    steaks are a rarw delicacy.

    rare
    
    \hth

    What is a vow?
    
    What is commitment?
    
    Do you we no longer believe integrity is necessary for good character?
    
    
    
    

 Nance, it's the 90's...none of that stuff matters anymore

And what of the innocent detritus of such failed unions?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lesbian mother abandons battle to obtain custody of son
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright � 1996 Nando.net
Copyright � 1996 The Associated Press

RICHMOND, Va. (Aug 15, 1996 12:47 p.m. EDT) -- A lesbian who lost custody of
her son in a court battle with her own mother abandoned her three-year fight
today to get that decision overturned.

Sharon Bottoms said at the start of a court hearing that she was withdrawing
her petition to obtain custody of Tyler Doustou, now 5. Her mother, Kay
Bottoms, had been awarded custody of her grandson in a case that went all
the way to the Virginia Supreme Court and inspired a television movie.

She did not immediately indicate the reason for her decision.

In a ruling that angered gay rights advocates, Ms. Bottoms lost custody of
Tyler in 1993 when a judge said she was an unfit mother because she and her
live-in lover, April Wade, engaged in oral sex, a felony in Virginia.

The Virginia Court of Appeals in 1994 reversed the trial court and ruled
that homosexuality alone is not grounds for losing custody. But in 1995, a
sharply divided state Supreme Court ruled 4-3 that Ms. Bottoms should not
have custody.

"We have previously said that living daily under conditions stemming from
active lesbianism practiced in the home may impose a burden upon a child by
reason of the 'social condemnation' attached to such an arrangement," state
Supreme Court Justice A. Christian Compton wrote last year.

The high court sent the case back to a lower court to reconsider some
issues.

Though Ms. Bottoms withdrew her petition, the hearing continued in Henrico
County Circuit Court as she and her mother began working out visitation
arrangements for the child. Ms. Bottoms and the child's father are divorced,
and he has not been involved in the boy's upbringing.

Earlier this year, Ms. Bottoms returned to Henrico County Juvenile and
Domestic Relations Court Judge William G. Boice and asked that Tyler be
returned to her because the boy was developing poorly with his grandmother.
She also argued that her life has become more stable since she lost custody.

But Boice rejected her argument and criticized her for plans to help make a
movie about the ordeal. ABC cast actress Valerie Bertinelli in the role of
Sharon Bottoms in the movie "For the Love of Tyler," which has not yet
aired.

    Jack,
    
    maybe you could live in a loveless relationship, I can't, nor would I
    expect anyone else to.  I tried it once, everyone, including my oldest
    daughter was unhappy.  She wasn't really happy with the divorce either,
    but she grew through it, and she and I maintain a wonderful
    relationship and she likes Frank and is glad I am happy.
    
    meg
    

    .104:
    
    That isn't the detrius of a homosexual love affair, it's the result of
    a meddling mother and government.

| <<< Note 772.92 by ACISS2::LEECH >>>

| The thought of someone marrying the one they love, then later deciding
| that they are gay, seems ridiculous.  

	For most they were denying they were gay going into it. They got
married for the wrong reasons. Because society tells people they must get
married, raise 2.5 kids, etc. This is also the case for many who get married to
the wrong prson. They feel they have to be married to be accepted. 

	To be honest, they should do away with the pressures of marriage. IF
person "a" wants to marry person "b", then let them. IF person "a" doesn't want
to marry, then let them! I truly believe the divorce rate would be drastically
lower if people didn't think they HAD to get married, or they failed. 

| I'd say something is wrong with that person.  

	I would agree with you. They didn't think they could be who they were
all along (for most) because they thought others would look down upon them. If
that wasn't there, then you wouldn't have people lying about who they are.

| And to not try and stick it out *at least* until any children were grown is
| reprehensible, IMO, and highly selfish.

	No, it is not. If someone is in a marriage that they shouldn't be in,
then they should get out of it. It is far better for everyone involved to have
honesty out in the open. If the parents chose to stay together, then it would
happen. 

	Of course if someone was leaving the wife/husband for another lover,
then I could agree with you that it is reprehensible (unless in an abusive
relationship). One can realize they are gay, or finally accept themselves as
gay, and end a relationship. But if they end it for the above reasons AND
because they have a lover, to *me*, it isn't a cool thing.



Glen

| <<< Note 772.95 by ACISS2::LEECH >>>

| <--- My slant on this was regarding a note a while back in which
| someone decides they are gay after being married for years - with
| children involved.

	You're right... it is your slant. They don't decide. They either accept
what they already knew, or they get around to figuring it out.



Glen

|"We have previously said that living daily under conditions stemming from
|active lesbianism practiced in the home may impose a burden upon a child by
|reason of the 'social condemnation' attached to such an arrangement," state
|Supreme Court Justice A. Christian Compton wrote last year.
    
    Some things never change.  Another judge, in another year not very
    long ago, wrote very nearly the same words about taking custody of
    children away from another couple.
    
    								-mr. bill

    It's a slow news day when that's the Top National Story on NandO.

    .98
    
    You are hearing a different voice than I.  Society is saying nothing
    of the sort, currently.  Never has society (in the US) been so
    openly accepting of gay relationships.
    
    And for that matter, "me and my ilk" do not call gays "evyl", nor do we
    suggest that it is simply a lifestyle choice in every single case.  
    
    What you conveniently ignore - which was the very point I've been
    trying to get across - is that it isn't even about being gay in a
    straight marriage, it's about commitment, promise, and honoring your
    vows.  It's about putting family first, not self.
    
    I think you need to get that broad brush calibrated.
    
    
    -steve

  772.92  ACISS2::LEECH

>    The thought of someone marrying the one they love, then later deciding
>    that they are gay, seems ridiculous.  I'd say something is wrong with
>    that person.  

  772.111 ACISS2::LEECH
    
>    I think you need to get that broad brush calibrated.

re: .111 (SteveL)

>    is that it isn't even about being gay in a
>    straight marriage, it's about commitment, promise, and honoring your
>    vows.

Which you conveniently won't let gays participate in.

  "If you don't marry who _I_ think you should marry, then you can't marry."

And you somehow think this will lead to a BETTER world.  Ya.

\john

    .113
    
    So you are saying the gays cannot have commitment, promise or vows
    without a legal marriage?
    
    Confused..

    Are you saying that a committed gay couple whouldn't be able to enjoy
    the same level of commitment as a committed heterosexual couple?
    
    

    Now let's review:
    
    Woman leaves family for homosexual relationship while the marriage
    was still binding.
    
    The family is thrust into turmoil because of the resulting loss
    of the female parental unit.
    
    Woman wants a divorce because she has discovered that she is 
    homosexual though her relationship with anonther woman which 
    was started during the time the marriage was in force...
    
    Woman wants custody of the children because... She's the Mother...
    
    
    Conclusion:
    
    Woman is unstable and unsuitable parent not because of her 
    homosexuality, but rather because she was an adultress and 
    and married him under false pretenses of being a hetrosexual.
    
    (Unless they signed a prenuptual agreement spelling out any
     deviations from the standard marriage assumptions...)
    
    
    Women and Men want it both ways... They want to act like 
    rutting animals with the morales of goats and they want 
    to pretend that life if pure and good on Sundays and in 
    front of their children...  
    
    Adultry, violating marriage vows, and lifestyles that discourage 
    the traditional family should all be grounds for not being given 
    custody of impressionable children.  
    
    If you want to indulge in diverse lifestyles I have no problem with 
    that, but I don't want to pay for the therapy for you children 
    traumatized, badly socialized, and left to suffer by your selfish 
    choices.
    
    People should keep it in their pants and when they pull it out/off, 
    think about the 20+ years of responsiblity they might be incurring
    and the commitment that entales.  
    
    Your self-actualization, and happiness has nothing to do with the 
    responsiblity you have to raise your children in a safe, loving 
    home that reflects the general values society would try to instill 
    them with.  If you want to be selfish, don't raise children.. it's 
    the most unselfish thing you will ever take part in.
    
    JMHO
    
    John W.
    
    I wish to appologize to goats, and other animals who may be insulted
    by comparing their rutting frequency with Homosapiens.  No animals 
    were hurt during the crafting of this note.

    [scrabble]

	Good at word games, arncha?

>    <<< Note 772.116 by SCASS1::WISNIEWSKI "ADEPT of the Virtual Space." >>>

  According to your scenario, she discovered she was homosexual
  during the marriage.  So she thought she was heterosexual when
  they entered into the marriage.  Is that still what would be
  considered a false pretense?

    .113
    
    You missed the point of my note.  Color me shocked (not).

    .116
    
    You bring in some good points, but Jim Henderson has the answer for you
    on them... they are unrealistic in 1996.
    
    There, now you undestand?  Feel better? 
    
    :-)
    
    

| <<< Note 772.111 by ACISS2::LEECH >>>

| I think you need to get that broad brush calibrated.

	Steve, it appears that you think if someone was gay, they should stick
with their marriage. IF that is true, do you ever think that there are cases
where marriages should end in divorce? And IF it is true, is it just gay people
who leave for another lover, or is it all gays who are married? (if the former,
I would actually agree with you. But that holds true for me in any marriage or
relationship, regardless of sexual orientation)



Glen

| <<< Note 772.116 by SCASS1::WISNIEWSKI "ADEPT of the Virtual Space." >>>



	I agree with you here.

| <<< Note 772.120 by ACISS2::LEECH >>>

| You missed the point of my note.  Color me shocked (not).

	I love it when Steve thinks someone else has it wrong. He doesn't tell
them why, he doesn't try to clear it up... he just says they are wrong. 



Glen

    Ok here is my  4 cents worth... from the fire
    
    
    several years vback I married this girl for the wrong reasons.... she
    was pregnant (my obligation was to marry her I felt... I was also in
    LUST) a few years (and beers) latter we had 3 kids... but she was
    acting in a unhealthy behavior (suicidal, excessive drinking, PROBLEMS)
    
    To Make a long story short I cleaned up and she tried but couldn't.
    Found out she was a survivor of childhood abuse. Being with a man
    brought on flashbacks and she acted out in unsafe   behavior. I had to
    make a very difficult decision... especially where the kids were
    concerned. I learned about boundaries... and whatI needed to feel safe.
    The kids mother wasn't safe... then she made it easy for me to decide.. 
    had an affair after selling  wedding ring. A stormy few months went on
    and she ended up living  with another woman who is her lover. So be it.
    I can see her decision and I don't have to own it. I am resposible for
    the kids... primary custodial parent (they live with me).
    
    Years later, and much counceling, she's a little more stable... enough
    so that I can trust that the children are safe when they visit her over
    night. There were times when she wasn't. 
    
    I married a second time for all the wrong reasons... I was "rescuing"
    another girl from an abusive past. I thought I was in love.. but today
    I know it was my autonomic....subconsiconce acting out... in familiar
    behaviors. I put myself through 4 years of verbal and emotional abuse.
    Then SHE had an affair.... With another guy ( although it surprised
    me.. this wife was fairly "butch" ). I booted her out.
    
    I made mistakes... I am not a LOSER.... I have  grown from them...
    
    Such as life.
    
    Jack, I made those vows... with full intentions of having the BALLS to
    live by  them. But the fact of the matter I wasn't healthy from the
    start....SH*T Happens... you learn... you grow.
    
    Not everybody is blessed growing up in a functional family
    
    George
     

    George...I realize that.  I really do.  I find it a sad state of
    affairs that our society has come to this.  
    
    What I do find however, is that society tends more to assimilate toward
    dysfunctionality rather than attempting to correct the problem. 
    Suddenly, that which is abnormal is now deemed as normal.  This is why
    I am a staunch believer that things like premarital sex and the like
    should have a heavy stigma to them and the thought of participating in
    such behavior should be shunned.  Instead we have the media whores and
    such condoning such actions as "a natural function of life, (put in
    Truman Capote voice here)".  Bullcrap.
    
    -Jack

    those media whores have the morales of goats.

    .125
    
    Who is to blame for these failed marriages?  Does blame lie anywhere? 
    Is there culpability?
    
    Most people for the sake of not offending anyone would say that you
    both were victims and the victimization of all is being done to the
    children who see these behaviors from the 2 most powerful people in
    their lives, their parents.
    
    What about the children George?  How old are they, how are they today?
    
    Your situation is unfortunately all too common.  I've lived through a
    divorce... for ALMOST the same reasons you've described.  I understand
    the feelings of entrapment, of abuse, of betrayal...  What about my
    kids?  How are they today?  How did I handle the divorce?  What will
    my children think of me when all is said and done?
    
    I already screwed up my choice, am I going to perpetuate the
    dysfunction and screw up my kids' future as well?
    
    To me, these are the real questions to ask now.
    
    

    The children live with me adn I have them in counceling
    
    
    overall they seem to be pretty well adjusted...at ages 11,9, 7 and 2
    
    They are also learning ( from my experience) that its OK to make
    mistakes... as long as we grow from them.
    
    
    Thsi was a condition I had to learn on my own. Growing up in my family
    , My dad percievably never made mistakes. Tough act to follow and a
    tough standard to live up to. I always felt like a failure compared to
    him. Today I realize I am a human being not a defective one. This is a
    concept I try and teach my kids. They are the greatest... and everyone
    that meets them tellls me their pretty good too. I must be doing
    something right.
    
    George
    

    .129
    
    I'm sure you are doing a lot of things right... the mere fact that you
    could be so open tells me a lot about you.  :-)  good things.
    
    Congrats on moving forward towards a better future.
    
    The problem with this string is the intonation of condemnation.  Every
    time a morale system is discussed condemnation seems to be the achilles
    heel.
    
    I think this comes from guilt.  The guilt of the one who has already
    behaved immorally and the anger associated with any stigma towards the
    behavior.
    
    I wish to God we could do away with stigmas and begin again through
    the healing of forgiveness for those who have been there, and making a
    better lighted path for those to come.
    
    I don't think any compassionate, caring person could condemn one who
    errs.... is it possible that the condemnation comes from within, not
    without?
    
    I know when I was a little girl, discipline for me was usually minimal
    because I was far more hard on myself then my authorities could ever
    be.
    
    I think to some extent... many are like me in that regard.
    
    

    I got a story, ain't got no morals
    
    	Let the bad guy win every once in a while...
    
    I got a story, ain't got no morals
    
    	Let the bad guy win every once in a while
    
    Will it go 'round in circles...
    
    	Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky

    .131
    
    Thank goodness somebody knows how to spell morals...

    The next question is...how do you spell 'relief'?

	I believe you spelt it correctly

    how do you spell relief?
    
    ROLAIDS

    	...and remember...too many morals can dampen your morale
    
    	I thank you.

| <<< Note 772.136 by SBUOA::GUILLERMO "But the world still goes round and round" >>>

| ...and remember...too many morals can dampen your morale

	And if several people do it, then it will dampen all of their morales!