Conference back40::soapbox

BTW, if you see other current topics in the 'box which you feel are polarized 
sufficiently to lend themselves to "yes/no" questions which should be added
to the poll, by all means please suggest same here.

    So,
    
    Jack, how does this lib and you measure up?
    
    meg  
    
    ;-)

It's a bit early to say, Meg. The sample is a bit small yet. :^)

Sure is interesting to see the nature of the gap, though! :^)

    while all of the areas may be polarized, I found quite a few in which the
    dimension of polarity wasn't along what I consider to be the significant
    issues.  Many of these are merely pop cultural phenomena about which my 
    intellectual response is "these phenomena are of no real significance at 
    all and I don't find them worth having an opinion about."  Rush Limbaugh
    is an entertainer, tatoos are a personal preference, 'bilingual education'
    means teaching kids in two languages, not one.  But I'm grouchy at the
    moment.
    
    DougO

re: .734.4, DougO

>    DID NOT ANSWER :
>    Rush Limbaugh isn't a political commentator, he's an entertainer.

	Can I take that as a "no" regarding favoring him as a political
	commentator?

>    The US Space program should be privatised.

	Can I take that as a "no" regarding continuance [under federal funding]?
	[Should I modify the question to indicate "under fed funds?]

>    About tatooing, who cares?  Live and let live. 

	Yabbut?? (This was sorta meant to be [in my mind] a lighter point
	simply to determine trends. I.E. wouldja or wouldn'tcha?)

>    Dogs over cats, huh?

	Again, a lite-note. It just seemed to be a polarized issue that
	"fit" the polarized nature of the survey. Most folks feel one way or
	the other about it, regardless of what that "means".

>    What I favor about 'bilingual education' is not what is usually
>     meant by the term in soapbox.

	???
	So, do you favor, or disfavor it, regardless of what you "mean"
	by it?

>    I favor truth-in-sentencing reform, which doesn't translate in my
>     view to 'tougher prison life'.

	OK. So that would be "No" on tougher prison life?

>    Immigration laws can't stop market forces; such policy is wasted effort.

	Should we take that to be "No" on more strict immigration policies?

           Can I take that as a "no" regarding favoring him as a political
            commentator?
     
    No- that would mean I consider him a political commentator with whose 
    views I can't agree.  I don't consider him even that respectable.  He's 
    too inconsistent and dishonest; look at how Letterman took him apart.
    He's no commentator.  He's an entertainer.
    
    > Can I take that as a "no" regarding continuance [under federal funding]?
    > [Should I modify the question to indicate "under fed funds?]
    
    I'd be willing to answer the question with 'no' with that mod.
    
    >>  I favor truth-in-sentencing reform, which doesn't translate in my
    >>  view to 'tougher prison life'.
    >
    >       OK. So that would be "No" on tougher prison life?
    
    not really.  When I think about 'prison reform', I want to see the
    sentences imposed by judges and juries actually served.  That seems
    to me to be 'tougher'.  But I don't want conditions arbitrarily made
    harsher, which is what the wording of your question suggests.
    
    >	Should we take that to be "No" on more strict immigration policies?
    
    Since immigration policy is the wrong policy area, I suppose that's a no.
    
    DougO

    How do you make it so I don't have to retype all that &%$#.  I just
    wanna answer the poll.
    -ss

         No kidding. These people must have a lot of spare time on their
    hands, or there must be a gimmick. But nobody wants to hear your
    opinions anyway, you damn hippie communist. 

    No. I'm a hippie anarchist!
    -ss

    
    >  But nobody wants to hear you opinions anyway, you damn hippie communist.
     
    
    
       BBBWWWWWaaaaaaaaahhahahhahahahahahahahahaha                                                       

    I had to answer the abortion question as Yes even though I am not
    really in favor of abortion because I think that is some instances,
    abortion is the lesser of competing evils.

    In case anyone really cares which I doubt, I indicated a few of my
    answers were provisional.  Here's why...... 
    
    	   188  The War on Some Drugs
    Do you favor continuance of the WoD?.................................Y**
    
    I am in favor of cracking down on highly addictive, manufactured drugs
    and by products or concentrates such as crack, PCP, and opiates.  I am
    not in favor of the ludicrous criminal penalties associated with
    marijuana and even to some extent, cocaine.  
    
            333  Take Our Daughters Day...
    Do you favor the TODTWD program as it stands?........................Y**..
    
    In concept, this is a good thing.  A special day for daughters to see
    and participate in corporate life and get a glimpse of the real world
    is at the very least tolerable if not a good, healthy experience.  I do
    have a problem with the absence of a similar program for boys.  It
    seems hipocritical to me that there is not a human resources sponsored
    event that is truly diverse i.e. equal treatment for both.  I would not
    want to see the TODTWD be discontinued due to the lack of equal
    treatment.  
    
            454  Drug Testing of Employees
    Do you favor the concept of drug testing of employees?.................**N
    
    Not indiscriminate testing of employees but only for for specific
    occupations where public safety is at risk i.e. Pilots, Train Engineers
    Bus drivers etc.  Beyond that, ain't nobody's business but your own.  
    
           694  Search/Seizure
    Do you favor the authority of law enforcement to seize property?.......**N
    
    Yes, under limited circumstances and to be held in escrow until the
    charges have been cleared or a conviction handed down.  As it stands
    today, there is too much power available to authorities to
    indiscriminately seize and dispose of personal property regardless of
    guilt or complicity in a crime.  Add to this the provision for due
    process for the IRS in property forfeiture.  

 >    I like the idea of the poll.  I think the questions were drawn too
 >   hastily and it shows.  Some of our answers reflect the wordings
 >   more than our views.  Nice try, however.

    **indicate provisional answers with the nod going to the answer indicated.
                                                                        
    									Yes  No
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        20  Abortion
    Do you favor the continuation of legalized abortion?.................Y..
 > (Of course, I would oppose any anti-abortion Massachusetts law.  But I
 >  disagree with the SCOTUS' logic in Roe v. Wade, an entirely different
 >  matter, in my view.  Box denizens are surprised, I think, that I split
 >  this way on many issues.  I care more about logic than I do about rights.)
        21  Gun Control
    Do you favor more stringent gun control laws?..........................  N
 > (Laws, bah !  If they only enforced the ones they have !)
        28  Just say "No" to Euthanasia
    Do you favor legal access to assisted suicide?.......................    N
 > (Unnecessary innovation.)
        44  Crime and Punishment
    Do you favor capital punishment?.....................................Y..
 > (In extreme cases.)
        50  Balanced Budget Amendment
    Do you favor adoption of a BBA?......................................Y..
 > (Another innovation, and thus suspect.  But the situation is desperate,
 >  and we've tried everything else.  Wouldn't surprise me, however, if it
 >  turned into a nothing once enacted.  Where's the downside ?)
        56  Gay Issues Topic
    Do you favor legal marriage rights for Gays?............................ N
 > (Unnecessart.)
        84  Rush Limbaugh
    Do you favor Rush Limbaugh as a political commentator?................   N
 > (Don't follow him.  Know nothing.)
       188  The War on Some Drugs
    Do you favor continuance of the WoD?.................................Y...
 > (I think the expression "War on xxx" in the USA is ludicrous.  I'd put it
    this way : I think it proper for government to legalize some substances,
    require a prescription for others, ban still others outright.)
       218  NASA Space Station
    Do you favor continuance of the US Space program?....................Y..
 > (Of course.  But the trouble is in the details - funding levels, project
    choices, schedules.)
       257  Tattoos/Bodyart
    Do you personally favor tattooing?.....................................  N
 > (I find tattoos universally ugly.)
       272  Dogs or Cats, which is better?
    Do you favor dogs over cats?............................................ N
 > (Own 3 cats, no dogs.)
       289  Prostitution/Red Light Districts
    Do you favor legalizing prostitution?................................    N
 > (Scummy business dealing in scum.)
       290  Spare the rod, spoil the child (the sequel)
    Do you favor parental right to discipline, short of clear abuse?.....Y..
 > (It's a joke to suppose anybody else will discipline early enough.)
       307  Madonna
    Do you think Madonna has anything of value to offer?...................  N
 > (Don't follow her.  Don't know.)
       322  Burning of the American Flag
    Do you favor prohibition of flag burning?............................Y
 > (This one needs an essay, maybe a book.)
       333  Take Our Daughters Day...
    Do you favor the TODTWD program as it stands?........................    N
 > (Political propaganda masquerading as public service.)
       353  The Check Out Room
    Do you have any idea what this guy was talking about?................    N
 > (OK, I'm clueless.)
       362  Waco compounded
    Do you favor the Justice Department's tactics re: Waco?..............Y
 > (The toasting of rebels is traditional.)
       444  Creation Science
    Do you favor Creationism over evolution?...............................  N
 > (Not sure of Darwin, but I reject a young earth on empirical grounds.)
       454  Drug Testing of Employees
    Do you favor the concept of drug testing of employees?...............Y
 > (Although this might empty the 'Box !)
       518  Smokers beware!!
    Do you favor restrictions on "smokers' rights"?......................Y..
 > (There aren't any.)
       551  Bilingual education/English as official language
    Do you favor the concept of bilingual education?.......................  N
 > (Practical advantages of one language are overwhelming.)
        578  Prison Reform
    Do you favor the concept of tougher prison life?.....................Y..
 > (Our jails are a joke.)
       679  V-Chips
    Do you favor required implementation of V-Chip technology?...........Y
 > (That is, if I understand it !!)
       687  Illegal immigration bill may become law
    Do you favor more strict controls on immigration?....................Y..
 > (Why we put up with this is beyond me.)
       694  Search/Seizure
    Do you favor the authority of law enforcement to seize property?.....Y
 > (But only after a finding of guilt.)
       711  APPLAUSE APPLAUSE - The Bernie Goetz Verdict!
    Do you favor the civil penalty levied against Bernie Goetz?............  N
 > ($43 million ?  For a punk ?)
    

    I would have been happy to take the survey, but I haven't a clue as to
    how to copy the questions over to a response without retyping them.
    
    If someone has a pointer on how to copy the questions I would like to
    enter my responses.
    

    
    	Notes>734.1
    
    	Notes> extract soap.poll
    
    	Notes> del entry soapbox
    
    		[Kidding ... don't do that]
    
    	Notes> exit
    	Notes> exit
    
    	DCL> edit soap.poll
    
    	DCL> notes soap
    
    	Notes> 734
    
    	Notes> reply soap.poll
    

    44	Crime and Punishment
Do you favor capital punishment?.......................................

	Not for every instance, but yes, there are clear-cut cases where
	it should be used.

   333	Take Our Daughters Day...
Do you favor the TODTWD program as it stands?..........................

	Yes, this program is fine, but could use a complementary TOSTWD.

   353	The Check Out Room
Do you have any idea what this guy was talking about?..................

	Yes, sort of.  Not sure why he was talking about it, but I at
	least got the gist of what he was doing.

   454	Drug Testing of Employees
Do you favor the concept of drug testing of employees?.................

	Not all of them, no.  As was mentioned, it would be good to test
	them if they're involved in mass transit.

   518	Smokers beware!!
Do you favor restrictions on "smokers' rights"?........................

	Generally speaking, no.  Of course, there are obvious cases where
	smokers should be more courteous to non-smokers.

   694	Search/Seizure
Do you favor the authority of law enforcement to seize property?.......

	Generally speaking, no.  But it could be somewhat useful as a
	deterrent if done properly.

    I don't understand some people's answers. :-) They seem intellectually
    inconsistent to me. The mind, it seems, is easily boggled.

	I'm amazed at how people are ready to support restrictions
	of smokers rights. Why is this? Why oppose the rights of
	smokers to engage in their slow and methodical suicide
	while endorsing assisted suicide? Why oppose smokers who
	may or may not affect the lives of others with second hand smoke
	and yet endorse the right to abortion which undeniably
	affects and denies the life of another (or future life depending on 
	your point of view)? How can some oppose smokers and
	oppose the WOD at the same time? 

	Or another one... how can someone support abortion and
	the WOD at the same time? 

	Where is the consistency?

	You see, one thing I've often mulled over from time to time
	is consistency - the consistency of my views. As such,
	I sometimes find that I must support certain tenets/positions
	that I would rather oppose. Abortion is such an issue for me.
	I endorse the rights of people to do as they wish to their
	own bodies and lives and I do not want the government to interfere
	or protect me from myself. If someone wants to
        self-destruct (smoking), or take absurd risks (drugs, no helmets), 
        let them. It is their body and their
	life to do with as they please. However, I abhor abortion and yet
	in the interests of personal consistency and the desire to
	not consider myself a self-serving hypocrite, I find that I must
	also then support the right to abortion.

	Does anyone else wrestle with this dilemna or do most of
	you just pick and choose positions based on how it affects
	your lives and your lives only?


                                                             

    I really don't know why people want prison to be tougher. If you make
    it tougher, then everyone who goes to prison should stay there for the
    rest of their lives because they'll be more bent when they come out
    than when they went in.

    >	I'm amazed at how people are ready to support restrictions
    >	of smokers rights. Why is this? 
    
     Simple. Smokers have the right to smoke, but I have the right to not
    have to breathe carcinogens as a result of some smoker exercising his
    or her right to smoke. If you want to poison youself, have at it. Just
    don't take me along for the ride.
    
     Would you support allowing potsmokers to spark up a spliff on a public
    bus or in a restaurant, where you and your children had no choice but
    to inhale?

    >I really don't know why people want prison to be tougher. 
    
     My interpretation of that is prison ought not be a place where inmates
    can demand cable TV, etc. As far as I'm concerned, inmates ought to
    have to earn their keep. We shouldn't have to pay to keep them out of
    society. They ought to have to pay for their own room & board.
    
    >If you make
    >it tougher, then everyone who goes to prison should stay there for the
    >rest of their lives because they'll be more bent when they come out
    >than when they went in.
    
     So do you think the converse it true, that if we make it really plush
    and cozy that they'll be swell people when they are let out? Or will it
    be so nice next to how they can afford to live that they will be trying
    to go back ASAP?

    
    I didn't discuss why I oppose "smokers' rights", and actually I'm not
    sure whether I oppose smokers' rights per se or just favour nonsmokers'
    rights more, but I answered the question as best I could, given the way
    it was presented.
    
    I want to be able to live free of cigarette smoke whenever possible.  I 
    don't like the smell of cigarette smoke and I don't like the way it
    makes me feel and smell after I'm exposed to large amounts of it.
    
    So people can smoke whenever they want, I really don't care what they
    do to their own lungs - but I want to be able to go places without being 
    exposed to it, so I want to be able to be isolated from them, or have 
    them isolated from me.
    
    Does that make sense?
    

    I just don't see prison as being such a wonderful place as it is right
    now. The word used in the question was `tougher'. If the question had
    said `cozier' I would have answered the same way.

    As to working to earn their keep etc. I'm all for it. Working to
    improve yourself is very rehabilitating if it can improve your
    position.

Re: .22 WRT smoking, what she said. It makes my clothes stink when I'm
around it, and I'm clearing my throat all the next day. But if someone
wants to smoke, and they're not in my house, have at it.

    
    Thanks for the replies re: smokers rights.
    I understand better.
    Almost seems to be a courtesy issue and I pretty much agree with you.
    
    
    What about consistency of ones views?
    Does anyone else find it a dilemna at times.
    
    						Hank

    It can be, at times, but remember "a _foolish_ consistency is the
    hobgoblin of little minds." In other words, don't feel like you can't
    use your brain independently on each issue so you can remain consistent
    with beliefs held in certain issues.
    
    I know what you mean about abortion. It's not my idea of a swell thing
    either. But I would prefer to stop abortion by A) preventing
    pregnancies in the first place and B) improving alternatives than by
    outlawing it. And besides, there are some times when an abortion is the
    best of a series of crummy choices, so the door has to be open to
    account for such things.
    
    I feel similarly about the WoD. It's a failure. The cure is far worse
    than the disease. Instead of using jackboots, we should be using
    blackboards. Education and rehabilitation would be 100 times more
    effective than the government thug approach. Not to mention how much
    our economy would be improved by not wasting tax dollars on the WoD,
    eliminating the largest black market in the history of the world,
    getting actual tax revenues from sales of intoxicants, etc. but some
    are determined to copy the mistakes of alcohol prohibition.

WRT the WoD - this is yet another case where things are happening and
tax money is being spent that (a) is not openly discussed and (b) is not
reaping rewards.

I have -um- resources who tell me, accurately, that no less than 1/3 of
the entire U.S. Navy's Atlantic fleet resources (meaning, $$, ships and
personnel) are presently engaged in the WoD, and have been pretty much
devoted to this since the Clinton administration slid into Washington.
For example, there is nearly always a nuclear attack boat (SSN) either
positioned outside strategic S.A.  harbors or actively tracking a
suspected drug-carrying boat. While they're doing that, folks, they're
not doing Defense work (which could be a hidden agenda).

Meanwhile, you can still buy smack, crack or blow pretty much anywhere
you want.

Art

    Lack of consistency is something I challenge in those who oppose
    the right of a woman to control her own body yet support the right of 
    an individual to protect their life and property via legal carry of
    firearms.  You say you have the right to stop, quite potentially
    fatally, someone who invades your space.  Yet you'd deny that right 
    to a woman who happens to be carrying an unwanted pregnancy.  Does
    an individual have the right to protect himself or herself from others,
    or not?
    
    Well, Hank, there you have my take on consistency among issues.  I see
    many people holding what I consider to be inconsistent views.
    
    DougO

    i am shocked, shocked at the number of boxers who
    support legalized abortion.

    
    DougO, I did check off that I support abortion, no matter
    how much I dislike it. Which leaves me wondering why
    you wrote...
    
    >You say you have the right to stop, quite potentially
    >fatally, someone who invades your space.  Yet you'd deny that right
    >to a woman who happens to be carrying an unwanted pregnancy
    
    Perhaps I'm missing something.
    
    							Hank

    Each one of the questions has or could be discussed as a topic
    in this forumn.  Polls are o.k. if administered right although
    I doubt that enough people will respond to allow the pollster
    to draw any good conclusions.  
    
    Let boxers box....   These are good questions that our government
    (legislative branch) should be asking WE THE PEOPLE IF THEY 
    REALLY CARED!

    Judging from this poll, I now understand how some of the polls
    regarding Clinton get such high results.
    
    Since this was a yes/no survey, it forces you into an apparent
    favorable position that is not representative of your actual position
    on one of the items.  For example, I am 100% opposed to the abortion
    laws as they exist today.  I do, however, believe that there specific
    circumstances under which abortion would be appropriate.  This puts me
    in the "yes" category, but in reality I oppose abortion almost totally. 
    The same applies to several other questions. 
    
    I do not favor gun control legislation except as it applies to those
    who use a firearm in the commission of a crime.  If regulation applies
    to the use of a firearm in comitting a crime, then I am all in favor of
    it.  the same with government siezure of property.  If someone is found
    guilty of a crime and sentenced, then the property can be siezed, but
    not as it is used today.
    
    There are several others where I found myself answering almost 180
    degrees opposite of how I actually feel about the issue, but a yes or
    no answer, at least for me, forces a yes.
    

There was no intention, in the development of the survey, to implement
"trick" questions. The only conclusion that I would draw from, for example,
an 80/20 split on the "yes" side of the "continuance of legalized abortion"
question, would be that 80% of the respondents favor not criminalizing
abortion, and not that 80% of the respondents are pro-choice.

    Hank, I wasn't talking about you, personally.  I was responding to your
    concern about certain poll respondents holding what looked to you like
    mutually inconsistent opinions.  I was agreeing with you- however, the
    example that jumps out at me is the two questions I mentioned, instead
    of the ones you cited.
    
    DougO

    
    Thanks DougO. My mistake.

Of course this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
------------------------------------------------------

>Do you favor the continuation of legalized abortion?
>Do you favor more stringent gun control laws?
>Do you favor legal access to assisted suicide?
>Do you favor legal marriage rights for Gays?
>Do you favor continuance of the WoD?
>Do you favor legalizing prostitution?
>Do you favor required implementation of V-Chip technology?
>Do you favor more strict controls on immigration?

	None of the above should be legislated at all. They are not 
	objective crimes and are the result of political policy. Legislation
	only results is removal of individual freedom.

>Do you personally favor tattooing?
>Do you favor dogs over cats?
>Do you favor the TODTWD program as it stands?
>Do you have any idea what this guy was talking about?
>Do you favor Creationism over evolution?

	Couldn't care less.

>Do you favor capital punishment?
>Do you favor the concept of tougher prison life?

	I can't help but think that there must be a better way. I
	just don't know what it is right now.

>Do you favor adoption of a BBA?

	Governments should be run like a business. They should be required 
	to live by the concept of a bottom line, or go out of business. They
	should offer a service that the citizens are willing to pay for
	instead of using forced taxation, which allows them to be paid 
	without requiring them to produce something of value.

>Do you favor Rush Limbaugh as a political commentator?

	Rush is a A-hole.

>Do you favor continuance of the US Space program?

	Space programs would be developed by business, if they needed it 
	to gain a profit. Governments develop programs to convince the
	citizens that their government is needed and doing good things,
	when all the while they are slowing down technological advancement.

>Do you favor parental right to discipline, short of clear abuse?

	No one should interfere with parent's right, when it comes to raising
	their children. Physical abuse would be the only delimiter.

>Do you think Madonna has anything of value to offer?

	Madonna provides a salable value to the public. If not, few
	would know she exists.

>Do you favor the Justice Department's tactics re: Waco?
>Do you favor the authority of law enforcement to seize property?

	The job of Law enforcement agencies is to protect the individual
	and his property from unwanted force, fraud or coercion. Anything
	else is subjective power control.
 
>Do you favor the concept of drug testing of employees?

	Companies should be allowed to test employees and potential employees
	as long as the employee is informed that it will happen, prior to
	accepting employment. Drug testing should not be forced by government
	or legislated in any way.

>Do you favor restrictions on "smokers' rights"?

	No controls should be on tobacco sales or smokers, except when the
	rights of others are tread upon. 

>Do you favor the concept of bilingual education?

	Forced education of any kind should be eliminated.

>Do you favor the civil penalty levied against Bernie Goetz?

	Civil penalties should be awarded by an honest judge, based on 
	objective evidence, to anyone who suffers unwanted force, fraud 
	or coercion, unless the force, fraud or coercion was in self-defense.
	The biggest problem is finding an honest, objective judge.

    
      Well, I didn't vote the way DougO thought was inconsistent,
     but I don't see it as inconsistent at all.  What kind of weird
     "consistency" is this - guns are mentioned right in the
     Constitution, abortions aren't ?  By what tortured process does
     DougO find a gun nut pro-lifer (Salvi ?) "inconsistent" ?  Nuts,
     perhaps, but not inconsistent.
    
      And I feel the same way on the pro-choice, anti-drug position, a
     group I DID happen to fall in.  Looks perfectly consistent to me.
     I answered these on "policy" grounds, and being a utilitarian, my
     underlying principle is "greatest good of the greatest number", if
     I can find it.  Or if you prefer, "if cost/benefit > 1, oppose".
    
      Consistency is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.
    
      bb

        Some people are putting in answers like `undecided' and `I like both'.

    I take umbrage.

    56	Gay Issues Topic
Do you favor legal marriage rights for Gays?...........................

        Does legal mean equal under existing laws?


    84	Rush Limbaugh
Do you favor Rush Limbaugh as a political commentator?.................

        Favor? As in like? Prefer? in reference to what?



   454	Drug Testing of Employees
Do you favor the concept of drug testing of employees?.................

        Within safegards and guidelines 

    >I take umbrage.
    
     Go back to halcyon. /hth

    
      So is Jack D. going to a statistical analysis ?
    
      bb

        Jack has the trots?

    > What kind of weird "consistency" is this - guns are mentioned 
    > right in the Constitution, abortions aren't ?
    
    The Founders referred to specific issues of the day and to general
    principles.  Is this weirdly inconsistent?  No, it is anticipating
    that future issues will arise that require interpretation, and the
    specific examples will presumably be consistent with the general
    principles.  What appears obvious to me is that abortion was not an
    issue about which their society was convulsed, thus they didn't seize
    upon it to illustrate a general principle.  Had they, it is also
    obvious to me that they would have abhorred the notion that a
    government could even begin to take such powers to itself, to regulate
    the medical treatments a woman might choose.  Clearly the individual is
    the only one with a natural right to such decisions.  Your notion that
    this is weird would deny us ever applying general principles inherent
    in the constitution to current issues.  Your notion is weird.
    
    By the same token, I could ask, what kind of weird filter is this
    'mentioned in the Constitution' criterion?  Do you refer to the
    writings of the Founders to decide everything?  You're anti-drug,
    many of the founders grew hemp, you don't take their advice there,
    what "policy" is this?
    
    In the eye of the beholder indeed.
    
    DougO

    .43
    
    You keep insisting that the Constitution and the writers had the view
    that anything would be acceptable under the Costitution, but they just
    hadn't thought about it so it's up to judges to decide exactly what
    they meant.
    
    I personally believe that the writers of the Constitution knew exactly
    what they meant and wrote it down.  they were smart enough to know that
    things would change in the future and provided a means to amend the
    Constitution if the majority felt it necessary.  I do not believe for a
    minute that they expected every generation to interpret their writings
    however people felt at any given point in time.  The amendment process
    addresses the issue of changing times.
    
    

    Just one question...
    
    Suzanne, how could somebody as progressive as you possibly support
    something as evyl as bilingual education?
    
    Bilingual Education - Teaching and encouraging a student within the
    primary language of their ancestry or heritage.  

								       Yes  No
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    44	Crime and Punishment
Do you favor capital punishment?.......................................       X

Since this question doesn't specify 'the concept' or 'as implemented', I must
answer No.

    50	Balanced Budget Amendment
Do you favor adoption of a BBA?........................................ X
    
    Congress has show time and time again that they don't have the
    self-control to do it on their own.
    
    84	Rush Limbaugh
Do you favor Rush Limbaugh as a political commentator?.................

I'm not sure I understand the question.  Anyone can be a 'political
commentator'.

   188	The War on Some Drugs
Do you favor continuance of the WoD?...................................       X

It seems a lot of people didn't learn from prohibition.

   272	Dogs or Cats, which is better?
Do you favor dogs over cats?...........................................       X

This question is like asking, "Do you favor one of your children over the
other?"  Each is unique and brings their own types of joy and challenges into
your life.

   307	Madonna
Do you think Madonna has anything of value to offer?................... X

Not to me, but she must to someone, as she sells a lot of music.  To each his
own.

   322	Burning of the American Flag
Do you favor prohibition of flag burning?..............................       X

It's a 1st amendment issue as far as I can tell.

   333	Take Our Daughters Day...
Do you favor the TODTWD program as it stands?..........................       X

Do it when it doesn't steal a day of school instruction from the kids and
doesn't interfere with testing issues.

   353	The Check Out Room
Do you have any idea what this guy was talking about?..................       X

What guy?  

   454	Drug Testing of Employees
Do you favor the concept of drug testing of employees?.................       X

I think Digital had the right idea before the government stepped in and made a
mess of it all.  Treat it as a performance issue.  Test ONLY upon probable
cause.  For safety sensitive issues, I favor a competency measuring test.  Drug
testing doesn't measure impairment.

   518	Smokers beware!!
Do you favor restrictions on "smokers' rights"?........................ X

Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.  I have no problem with people
smoking in an environment where I am NOT forced to inhale, ingest, etc.,
carcinogens.

   551	Bilingual education/English as official language
Do you favor the concept of bilingual education?....................... X

I favor the concept, but not the current implementation.  Bilingual education
should be used as a way to allow non-English children to get an education while
they learn English ASAP.  For example, there is no reason for a child to flunk
a math course because he can't understand the instructions in English.  Teach
the child math in his native tongue and move him to an English speaking math
class as soon as his English ability allows.

   578	Prison Reform
Do you favor the concept of tougher prison life?....................... X

No free college education, etc. for criminals.  Criminals should not be treated
better than our military personnel.

    
    	Karen, do you have a glossary for your highlighted answers?
    

    
    	Not yet.  I'm lucky I had time to do the survey, never mind
    	explain myself!  That said, I do plan to try ;-)
    

    
    	OK, just making sure I didn't miss it.
    

    
    	How do you keep a fool in suspense ?
    
    

    I'll tell you tomorrow.

    
    hear that shawn?? She called you a fool.

    	
    	I did?  Where ?
    

    
    	RE: Battis
    
    	The implication was obvious, but she didn't actually say it.
    
    	8^)
    

    Okay...how?

    How???

    HOW HOW HOW!!!!!!!!!?????

    
    	Jack, you must be a rather competent typist ... all 3 of those
    	replies in less than a minute!!
    
    	The implication was there because she posted the question right
    	after a reply made by me, which commentied on an alleged delay.
    

    
    	re .58
    
    

    20	Abortion
Do you favor the continuation of legalized abortion?................... Y

	In general yes, but late term abortions of healthy foetuses for 
	no good reason is murder, to me. 

    84	Rush Limbaugh
Do you favor Rush Limbaugh as a political commentator?................. So-So

	Rush can be an air-hole, his opinions are sometimes based on his
	own morality, and he seems as willing to engage in hyperbole as the
	the liberal media - basically sometimes he is just plain FOS, but
	IMO he provides a valuable service - i.e., an alternative to the
	highly biased and often-just-plain-lies (and lies of omission) of the 	
        other side.

   218	NASA Space Station
Do you favor continuance of the US Space program?...................... Y

	Incentives for privatization would be nice.

   257	Tattoos/Bodyart
Do you personally favor tattooing?..................................... DontCare

	Don't mind them, some of them on women are actually kinda nice ;-},
	but I wouldn't get one.

   272	Dogs or Cats, which is better?
Do you favor dogs over cats?........................................... Y

	Do you mean which ones taste better :-} ?

   333	Take Our Daughters Day...
Do you favor the TODTWD program as it stands?.......................... y

	Don't mind it - I think the controversy is stupid.

   444	Creation Science
Do you favor Creationism over evolution?...............................    gmafb

	(You can take that as a no)

   518	Smokers beware!!
Do you favor restrictions on "smokers' rights"?........................ Y

	In this case, I assume "smoker's rights" equates to someone else's
	right to pee in my drinking water. Anyone has the right to kill
	themselves if they wish, don't ask me to pay for it.

When the results are compiled, I would be interested in breaking down the 
answers on topic 1 by gender as well. This has been an arguing point between
myself and others.

    
    	And by race, of course.
    
    	And marital status.
    
    	And yearly gross earnings, <$50K and >$50K.
    

    Why can't people answer `yes or no'? 
    
    If this had been a question:
    
    Is it possible for you to answer yes or no?:
    
    people would respond: WGAS, unsure, yes and no, so so, depends on the
    circumstance etc. etc. ad poopeam

    ad poopeam!!

>    Why can't people answer `yes or no'? 

   dees eez vhat i vas vonderink too.

    and yes, we have no bananas.

Some of the questions are difficult to answer Y or N, given the way they are
worded.

The questionnaire is a good idea, and a pretty good first pass, but it might
have been nice to solicit input on the thing before actually taking the answers.
For example, as has been mentioned, rewording the Creationism and drug testing
questions. Also, we have Madonna, but no Clinton or Dole. We have BBA, but no
flat/consumtion tax. We have the space program, but no question on entitlements
or welfare reform.

    poll snarf-aroonie
    
    {{DUH}}

    also, not one question on bumblebee tuna which 
    troubled me deeply.

    so, it may be difficult arriving at a yes or no answer, okay, but
    answering yes or no is real easy.

    You'd only get canned answers.

    
    	Yeah, and almost everybody singing the same tuna.
    

    
    	maybe folks don't wanna be misconscrewed, ie,
    	if I say "yes, Madonna has value", because I'm sure she
    	does, to someone, that would be taken as saying I
    	like and or approve of Madonna, which I don't.
    

    
    frankly, what is most troubling regarding that survey, is not *one*
    question about cactii. i mean i'm on pins and needles just thinking
    about it.

    I think Jack dids a great first attempt, and he did pass them by
    another person.  there are a few that I had problems with a yes or no,
    but, multiple choice is still not going to make people happy. 
    
    Otherwise ther wouldn't be a market for OTB

    
    	RE: Karen
    
    	The way the "Madonna" question is worded almost forces a "yes"
    	because it doesn't specify that the "something of value" that
    	she has to offer would appeal to you ... just to someone.
    
    	Also, you could put anyone's name in there and the answer is
    	almost always "yes".
    
    	I happen to think she has a pretty good voice, so I like to
    	listen to a good portion of her music.  So, regardless, I'd
    	answer that with a "yes".
    

    
    OTB = Off Track Betting.
    
    nnttm, hth, kfc. ipa

>      <<< Note 735.74 by CNTROL::JENNISON "Crown Him with many crowns" >>>


	but anyone with half a brain (or more) already knows that
	"yes" or "no" doesn't reveal much, the way the questions
	are worded.

    If people infer things like that, that's their problem. If you thought
    Madonna must have something to offer, you should have said yes. The
    question wasn't whether you approved of her or not. See? So simple.

    
   Here you go, Shawn.  It's not terribly exciting, so I'm not sure why 
    you were so interested.
    
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
								       Yes  No
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    44	Crime and Punishment
Do you favor capital punishment?....................................... X**

    I'm closer to "undecided".

    84	Rush Limbaugh
Do you favor Rush Limbaugh as a political commentator?.................    X**


    I'm not a big fan, but I'm not opposed to him, either.

   188	The War on Some Drugs
Do you favor continuance of the WoD?...................................    X**


    I'm in favor of taking away power from the drug lords, but I'm
    not sure that's what the WoD is all about.

   307	Madonna
Do you think Madonna has anything of value to offer?...................    X**

    I'm definitely not a fan, but I wouldn't say she has nothing of
    value to offer.

   362	Waco compounded
Do you favor the Justice Department's tactics re: Waco?................    X**

    I'm against a bunch of wacko's holing up in middle of Texas with
    an ample supply of armaments.  Did the Justice Department do the
    right thing ?  It doesn't seem so.


   454	Drug Testing of Employees
Do you favor the concept of drug testing of employees?.................    X**

    A personal freedom versus safety of others issue...

   518	Smokers beware!!
Do you favor restrictions on "smokers' rights"?........................ X**

    I favor segregated areas for smokers, not abolition of smoking.

   551	Bilingual education/English as official language
Do you favor the concept of bilingual education?....................... X**

    I'm not against bilingual education, as long as there is a strong
    emphasis on learning English.

    
    	re .79
    
    	Well, now you know why I was confused.
    
    	;-)
    

    
    
>    so, it may be difficult arriving at a yes or no answer, okay, but
>    answering yes or no is real easy.
    
    Not for me given the questions.  For example, one question was
    something like "do you favor stricter gun control laws".
    
    * I favor stricter laws banning things like cop killer bullets
    * I oppose general laws banning things like hand guns
    
    So how am I supposed to answer that question as yes or no? 
    
    Greg
    
    

    >* I favor stricter laws banning things like cop killer bullets
    
     Why don't you just take an ad out in the paper saying that you are
    uninformed about gun control? Or wear your "I'm gullible" t-shirt.
    
     Ok, let's see if you can pass this simple test. What are "cop killer 
    bullets"?

    
    dum dum dum dum

    
    
    	>    dum dum dum dum
    
    	bzzzt! wrong. try again...
    
    

    
    	I'm not Greg, but I'd say that armor-piercing bullets [I'm not
    	sure that such a thing exists, but I'd guess it does] have no
    	place in the hands of civilians.
    

    Let me add a question along the lines of this current string.
    
    How many cops have been killed with cop-killer bullets?

...or armor piercing rounds?

    
    	If the answer is 1 it's too many?
    

 >   	If the answer is 1 it's too many?
 
 So being killed by a 'regular' bullet is somehow more acceptable
 than being killed by a 'cop killer' [sic] bullet ....

hmmm, someone is still trying to sell that "hey, if it saves
one life" crap. how silly. 

the world certainly is full of people missing real problem.

    
    	RE: Doug
    
    	If a cop is shot through a bullet-proof vest and dies of a
    	gunshot wound that wouldn't have existed if the vest had
    	stopped a regular bullet, then yes, that's less acceptable.
    

    
    
    	No cops have been killed by an armor piercing bullet defeating a
    bullet proof vest. 
    
    	Free hint: any good rifle of hunting caliber (.30-06, .308,etc)
    will defeat a level two bullet proof vest with plain ol' hunting ammo
    (i.e. - not armor piercing). Level two vests are those most commonly
    worn by on-duty cops. They are only meant to stop low-powered handgun
    rounds (9mm, .38spl, etc). 
    
    	Level IV vests will stop a .308 round, but I wouldn't bet my life
    on them stopping a .338win mag or .416rigby solid. Just the shock
    trauma would kill you. 
    
    jim

    
    	OK, so ban all the ammo that will pierce a vest.  And maybe we
    	can turn hunting into an actual sport again by forcing the use
    	of bows and arrows instead of guns.
    
    	Simple, isn't it?
    

-1 oh ya...

    
    
    	>    	OK, so ban all the ammo that will pierce a vest. 

    
    	You miss the point. ALL rifle ammo can penetrate level II vests.
    Level IV vests are huge, heavy things than no beat cop is going to wear
    around all day. Basically, you'd have to ban all rifles, not just ammo.
    
    	> And maybe we
>    	can turn hunting into an actual sport again by forcing the use
>    	of bows and arrows instead of guns.
    
    	Free clue: hunting is controlled by the fish and game folks. They
    set the limits on how many animals you can take of what species. These
    limits are set to keep the animal populations in control. If you
    relegate hunters to only bow and arrow (not that many hunt during bow
    season) you will effectively up the number of animals that survive each
    year. Guess what that leads to? Overpopulation, overgrazing, unhealthy
    herds, and animals moving into populated areas (lotsa roadkill, damaged
    property/gardens, etc). Wanna guess why they had to open the Quabbin
    Reservoir up to hunting? Can you say overpopulation? Erosion due to
    plant life being decimated?
    
    	Hunters may enjoy hunting as a sport, but the only reason hunting
    is allowed is to control animals populations. And if you think deer
    hunting is just popping out in the woods with your rifle and shooting
    the first one to saunter by, I suggest you think again. The average
    time frame for a hunter to harvest his first deer is seven years. 
    
    	jim
           

I'm sure it's been said before, but:

You know, the way these things happen is to appeal to a majority that
doesn't have any personal stake in things.

"Let's outlaw widgets, because widgets are bad, and bad people own
widgets!"  Most people don't care about widgets, therefore play along.

I for one will be sorry when one of my hobbies (target practice with a high
powered rifle) is outlawed.  Not that anyone would care, because most
people don't share the hobby.  (Hell, it's already illegal for me to have
the darn thing in my home in CT.)

Yah, let's outlaw anything that makes anyone else nervous, and I'll be
stuck spitting pumpkin seeds at a dart board... until someone chokes on
one, and we outlaw them, too.

  > 	OK, so ban all the ammo that will pierce a vest.  And maybe we
  >  	can turn hunting into an actual sport again by forcing the use
  >  	of bows and arrows instead of guns.
  
   What! No Smilies   :-)

  > Simple, isn't it?
 
  No actually, but I think you knew that :-)

Anti - Anti SNARF

    Jim had the correct answer to my question posted a few back, fwiw.
    
    Kinda makes one wonder where the term "cop-killer" was dug up, eh?

>    Kinda makes one wonder where the term "cop-killer" was dug up, eh?

Yeah, "cop-killer" bullets were the result of a massive R&D effort on the
part of the evil gun manufacturing conspiracy.  After years of false
starts, they finally succeeded in developing ammunition that's fatal to
police officers, yet is not fatal to other people.

Sort of puts a whole new spin on "smart bomb" technology.

The big break in this line of research came when it was discovered that
other bullets, the so called "non-cop-killer" bullets kill civilians, but
not cops.  From there, it was a simple matter of making the inverse.

This shows superior American technology, compared to other countries where
all bullets are equally capable of killing cops and civilians.

    There were a lot of items in the survey that can have rather
    interesting discussions, but the current thread about guns and gun
    control is interesting.
    
    I don't own a gun and haven't for decades, but I find the concept of
    someone telling me that I can not own a gun, of any sort, comical.  All
    of the talk about gun control deals with the criminal use of guns. 
    There is never any discussion about law-abiding citizens owning guns. 
    All of the nuts who want to take guns out of society talk about
    criminals.  Well, have strong, effective laws that deal with the
    illegal use of guns.  Leave the law-abiding citizens alone.
    
    I always thought that an uzi was a stupid gun.  Who would want one for
    sport?  Well, the thought occurred to me that if I opurchased a gun for
    protection, I would want the one that got the job done best.  If some
    slime ball broke into my house and could threaten my family I would
    want a gun that held about 100 rounds that would fire as quickly as
    possible with enough force to stop a bull elephant.  I want the bullets
    to penetrate anything that this creep might be wearing to protect
    himself while he victimizes my family.
    
    There should be no restrictions whatsoever on the personal, private
    ownership of firearms.  There should be ultimate sentences for the
    commission of a crime with a gun.
    

I quite agree.  I am interested solely in lawful uses of my gun (target
practice).  Automatic weapons sound interesting, but if I'm paying for the
bullets, I don't think I want one.

It distresses me to be characterized as a criminal (by virtue of my owning
a particular kind of gun).  It pains me to hear that my use of the gun for
target practice is not legitimate (when people say that the only legitimate
use for my gun is killing people).

It kind of makes me feel a bit marginalized by the political system.

I hope people understand this when they decide to take away one of my
favorite hobbies.

    
    
    	re: .104
    
    	well, I wouldn't want to go up against anything bigger than a po'd
    german shepherd with an Uzi TYVM. An Uzi is nothing more than a 9mm
    with a large mag capacity and a full auto switch. A .357 revolver would
    serve you much better in defense of family and self. 
    
    	On the other hand, I agree with you that there should be no
    restriction on what can and can't be purchased. The bad guys end up
    with 'em anyway.
    
    jim

    So, if I wanted to purchasa rocket launcher, that should be okay?

    
    
    	Guess what? You can purchase working rocket launchers today (you
    just can't purchase the ammo). :*)
    
    	I'm talking pistols, rifles, shotguns, machine guns etc...not
    rocket launchers, mortors, grenades, claymore mines, etc. Those are
    area weapons. Different group.
    
    	jim

    
    	Jim would rather you were able to buy a 100-round Uzi that
    	could wipe out 20 armed felons almost instantaneously than a
    	grenade which can wipe out 20 armed felons AND their assault
    	vehicle almost instantaneously.
    

    
    If I had a rocket launcher, I'd make somebody pay.
    

    .108
    
    > not ... claymore mines...
    
    No need to buy claymore mines.  I can make a dandy one from a 12-gauge
    shotgun shell and a few items commonly found around the home.

    Diesel and Dust  

    
    	Oh, I think I know who'd be your 1st victim.
    

    .110
    
    > If I had a rocket launcher, I'd make somebody pay.
    
    That's the title of level 14 in Marathon 2.  You a closet Mac user?

    
    Um, it's a song by Bruce Cockburn!
    
    
    
    And I'm an "out" Mac user, tyvm 8^).
    

    It's a line from Bruce Cockburn's "If I had a rocket Launcher".  A song
    about Central American political violence and government inflicted
    injustice.  

    
    I would like to see,
    
    under spare the rod...
    
    How about an age break down...0-1, 2-5, 6-9 10-13, 14-18

    .106
    
    See how much I know about the current firearms available.  I appreciate
    the info and I certainly would look for something more powerful than an
    uzi, but certainly something that held as big a clip as I could afford. 
    I don't want to have to worry about my skill with a single shot
    revolver when I'm being victimized at 2 o'clock in the morning.  I want
    to be able to protect myself and my family and make sure the scum is
    dead as a door nail.
    
    On the other hand, I want to see any punk that hold up a gas station,
    store or citizen, and harms them in any way with a gun, gets the death
    penalty.
    
    If you are law-abiding you should have almost no restrictions at all. 
    If you are a crook, then you should have the full weight of society and
    the law brought down on you.
    

Yeah, the trouble with a .357 is that you have to be a decent shot.  With a
fully automatic Uzi, there's a lot more wiggle room for the operator.

Well, maybe an automatic Mac-10.  Bigger bullets, good for killing your
local radio talk show host.  (Can you believe they only convicted those
guys on RICO?????)

    
    
>Yeah, the trouble with a .357 is that you have to be a decent shot.  With a
>fully automatic Uzi, there's a lot more wiggle room for the operator.
    
    	Try shooting a full auto uzi sometime and see if you can keep it on
    the paper. It ain't like the movies.....
    
    
    jim

                      <<< Note 735.120 by BULEAN::BANKS >>>

>Well, maybe an automatic Mac-10. 

	No full-auto gun makes a good self defense weapon. A .45 caliber
	MAC is worse than most. 32 rounds in just over a second and your
	chances of getting any decent hits at anything over 5 feet are
	marginal at best.

	Good aimed single shot fire is MUCH more effective unless you are in 
	a very unique situation where area supression might be required.

Jim

    
    hell Jim, the sound alone would scare the bejeebers out of the perps.

    That's why they call it a mechanical laxative. Fire it over their heads
    and constipation is no longer an issue.

not to mention that non-auto defense weapons are much
more dwelling and neighbor friendly :-)

Points well taken on the accuracy issues.

Yah, it's a mechanical laxative.  One of the guys behind the MAC-10 that
mowed down my fave talk show host soiled his BVDs immediately afterward. 
It ain't just a laxative for the victim...

re: Selection of question for the survey

As Meg indicated, we tried to come up with a bunch of issues currently
under discussion and present a single question related to the issue
which represented some polarity. There were some questions that were
dropped from my initial cut, as Meg and I couldn't agree upon a single
polarized question which didn't "favor" either side of the issue.
I wanted to avoid multiple choice, because inevitably when you provide
a.-b.-c.-d., over 75% of the respondants are likely to add their own
e. (and a "none/all/some of the above [or] other" doesn't provide too
much info).

Hey, wow.  Test construction issues in the 'box.  Doing my research for
school, I know exactly what you mean about people adding their own answers. 
Out of about 105 responses so far, I'm not sure if I have a single one
where the participant answered all questions as stated.

Yeah, I can appreciate the problems you had constructing the test.  Still,
some (many) of the questions are unanswerable for me in their current
Yes/No state.

    
    I'm still waiting for the cactus question Jack. harumph!

    .128
    
    Simple.  You just run normalization QA session on a typical sample and
    toss the questions that don't get a Y/N answer.   ;-)

    
    	RE: .120 [Dawn]
    
    	Was that the talk-show host in Colorado, whose name I've since
    	forgotten?  I was in Littleton [bordering Denver] when it hap-
    	pened [but I have an alibi].
    

 Can't remember his first name, but last name Berg?  I used to listen to
 him when I lived in CO.




 Jim

    
    	Alan Berg ... thank you.
    

Yeah, Alan Berg.  I lived in Denver (actually, Littleton) at the time.  I
was on a plane to Chicago at the time, so they never pinned it on me.

There were some days that I would have been tempted to beat the members of
The Order to him, though...

(Back in the good old days when there were obnoxious flatulent gas bag
radio talk show hosts on BOTH ends of the political spectrum.)

    
    	Wow, small world.
    
    	My aunt/uncle live in Littleton, and they flew me from MA to CO
    	for a high school graduation present ... I was there for about
    	a month [June/July '84], part of that spent driving through WY
    	on a business trip with my uncle.
    

 Z   Do you favor the continuation of legalized abortion?...................
 Z   Y***
    
    For specific purposes, yes, I believe it is a necessary evil.
    
 Z   Do you favor legal access to assisted suicide?.........................    
 Z   N**
    
    You want to end your life, do it on your own time...don't get society
    involved.
    
 Z   Do you favor legal marriage rights for Gays?...........................    
 Z   N**
    
    Since you insist on making marriage, an ordained union under God to be
    a civil issue, then I vote no.  You want to marry, get the taxpayer out
    of it and keep it within your church or a Justice of the Peace.
    
 Z   Do you favor continuance of the US Space program?......................
 Z   Y**
    
    I believe it needs to be privatized and the feds ought to get out now.
    
 Z   Do you favor legalizing prostitution?..................................
 Z   Y**
    
    I reserve the right to have little compassion on you if you catch AIDS
    you dingbat!
    
 Z   Do you think Madonna has anything of value to offer?...................
 Z   Y**
    
    I believe everybody has something of value to offer.  I also believe
    people of their own free volition choose not to offer anything.
    
 Z   Do you favor Creationism over evolution?...............................
 Z   Y**
    
    Only because Evolution was in my case, taught as dogmatic fact.  The
    word "theory" was seldom used.
    
 Z   Do you favor the concept of drug testing of employees?.................
 Z   Y**  
    
    In some cases, i.e. heavy machinery use, driving, I believe it is
    necessary.
    
    -Jack

Do you favor capital punishment?.............................qualified Y
        Evidence must be totally non-circumstantial and unambiguous. If this
        can't be done, I'm agin it. Too much power in the hands of
        bureaucrats.

Do you favor legal marriage rights for Gays?..................no opinion
        Never devoted much thought to it. I don't really consider it to be
        one of the earth-shaking issues of our time. If pressed, I'd say
        "do as you like".

Do you favor continuance of the US Space program?............qualified N
        Get gov't out of the business of space. Commercial interests can and
        will do it better given the chance.

Do you favor the TODTWD program as it stands?.................no opinion
        No children, not really a big concern. If pressed, I'd say something
        like "aren't we supposed to be getting work done rather than
        entertaining our kids?"

Do you favor the concept of drug testing of employees?.......qualified N
        This depends on what the employer is attempting to accomplish. What I
        do on my time is none of his business. He can require anything of me,
        within the bounds of the employment contract, that he likes on his
        time.

Do you favor restrictions on "smokers' rights"?..............qualified N
        Depends what we call "rights". You have the right to do whatever you
        want as long as it doesn't bother me, or as long as I agree to it.

Do you favor more strict controls on immigration?............qualified N
        Not unlike the gun control argument, such target the wrong people.
        Those who obey immgration laws aren't out to pull a fast one. Those
        who don't will continue to disobey. In order to solve the real
        problem, we need to think about what these people are coming here
        for, and whether that's bad or good, and whether we want to change
        it.
        

    .137
    
    > Evidence must be totally non-circumstantial and unambiguous.
    
    The only unambiguous evidence is a fingerprint, voiceprint, or retina
    print.  The latter two are rather difficult to obtain in most cases. 
    Any other evidence, no matter how convincing, has room for error.  We
    know, for example, that based on eyewitness evidence David Schwimmer 
    could probably get nicked for a crime committed by Our Jack Martin.

>	Does anyone else wrestle with this dilemna or do most of
>	you just pick and choose positions based on how it affects
>	your lives and your lives only?

Constantly. I find that a logically consistent position is easier to argue
and easier to live with.

Your exact struggle is also mine. I find the thought of abortion somewhat
repugnant, but I can't consistently argue against goverment control of
personal life and for control of abortions.

My opinion of law is that it should reflect objective reality: Lacking any
scientific evidence to make a convincing point one way or another, the only
possible out is to let people decide for themselves what's right/wrong,
good/bad.  Therefore, abortion has to remain legal. There is no room for
my emotion in law.

Obviously, most lawmakers don't feel this way.

>         <<< Note 735.138 by SMURF::BINDER "Uva uvam vivendo variat" >>>
>    The only unambiguous evidence is a fingerprint, voiceprint, or retina
>    print.  The latter two are rather difficult to obtain in most cases. 

I dunno, I'd consider, for instance,  the case against the Long Island
Railroad killer to be pretty much airtight and suitable for death penalty
consideration.

    RE:  Consistency (or inconsistency) of thought

    I would have liked to see a question to the effect of:
Do you favor the Riverside sheriff's tactics re: beating illegals? ....

    Preferably having that question in close proximity to:
Do you favor the Justice Department's tactics re: Waco?................   

    -- Dave

    I would have liked a question like:
    
    Are you able to answer a yes or no question?

    Did we ever get an official tally of the results.
    

I don't know.


Did you total them?

    One of these days I'm going to get bored and count all those responses
    since the note authors apparently have no time or recollection (not an
    old persons joke)
    -ss

>    One of these days I'm going to get bored

How can we help?

    (nodding off I begin to count)