Conference back40::soapbox

Its only purpose is to define the difference approaches the two candidates
are likely to take as president.

	Dole, cut spending, lower taxes, balance budget
	Clinton, talk about cutting spending, lowering 
		 taxes and balancing the budget (and then
		 do the opposite).

Doug.

    Phil:
    
    Actual data:  how much of the deficit has this 93 gas tax cut????
    
    

    BOTE:
    
    4.3 cents * 1 Billion/(year*cent) * 3 years = about 13 Billion
    
    								-mr. bill

RE: 727.1 by BRITE::FYFE "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do withou

> Dole, cut spending, lower taxes, balance budget

Cutting spending?  On what!?!  Dole will not cut,  or can not cut,  or
wants to increase spending on,  at least 80% of the budget.

Add them up:

Social Security
Medicaid
Medicare
Interest on the debt
Defense
Various subsidies,  like for tobacco,  sugar,  peanuts,  etc.


Phil

Cut spending by consolidating and elliminating unnecessary federal departments
and agencys, cut taxes in many areas, cut the level of federal involvement
in entitlements ....

Doug.

    The gas tax decreases are a sham.  If anything, divert the money to the
    infrastructure where it should be.  Our roads and bridges are in a
    shambles.  
    
    The disgusting part is the Dems holding the (non) issue hostage over
    the minimum wage increase.  ScuzemewhileIpuke.....

        Oh boy, gas a whole 4 cents a gallon cheaper!  That's about 48 cents
        a tank-full less--that's going to make me forget the oil companies
        have increased the price of their product by 28+ cents a gallon all
    	right :^|
    
        I would rather hear that Dole was working on his friends in the oil
        industry to get them to cut out the crap.  Or that Dole (or any
    	other politician for that matter) back a bill to give a tax break 
        to the electric car industry.  Not going to hold my breath though.
                    

    
    Just to pu things in perspective...
    
    In New England, Conn. has the highest gas tax per gallon - 35 cents...
    Mass comes in second at 21 cents...
    

RE: 27.5 by BRITE::FYFE "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do withou

> I'm sure there is more

But you never looked...


Phil

>    The gas tax decreases are a sham.  If anything, divert the money to the
>    infrastructure where it should be.  Our roads and bridges are in a
>    shambles.  
 


     The purpose of the recent federal gas tax was to fund the improvement
     of the infrastructure.



   Jim
    

    Dole wants to cut the gas tax because he thinks it SOUNDS cool to 
    say "Hey, I'm cutting taxes by almost $5 billion a year with this."

    In truth, the $5 billion will go to the gas companies instead
    (who have raised their prices by 20 cents since February, so 
    this 4 cents means nothing except bigger profits to them.)

    If they go through with this, I think I'll send my share (roughly
    $20 per year) to the federal government with the note "Thanks for
    this massive tax cut, but I'd rather see $20 of my money go toward
    the deficit."

    
    
    
    Yeah the whole 40 cents a week this *MIGHT* save me by Sept is worth all the
    hot area and energy generate in washington.
    
    I think letting the free market work will lower the price of gas, 
    this only had a chance of prolonging the pain by helping the demand
    stay high. 
    
    If they could stop working on mice sized problems and work on Elephants
    for a while.
    

    Third time's a charm, eh?

    Jim, I knew that.  Apparently our Congess doesn't.  

>> I'm sure there is more
>
>But you never looked...

Naw,  Just a poor choice of words ...

    don't worry, if they repeal the 4.3 � gas tax, they'll just replace it
    somewhere else. 
    
    
    

RE: 727.17 by BRITE::FYFE "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do witho

> Just a poor choice of words ...

I'd say it is a good choice of words.

Cards on the table time.  Show those cuts.  

Federal program  Total spending in 199x   Suggested spending in 199x+1
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx   $xx Billion              $yy billion


Oh,  you can do it.  You need to cut Social Security and/or Medicaxx and/or
Defense and/or Corporate Welfare.  Or raise taxes.


Phil

    
      Actually, Phil, you don't.  You just have to hold the increases
     down.  As we've heard many times, the feds will take $11 or $12
     trillion out of GDP by 2002, more than enough.  Just not enough
     to keep up the current rates of increase in entitlements.  And
     raising taxes doesn't change that picture at all - you still can't
     maintain the increase very much longer, even at 100 % of GDP.
    
      bb
    

>I'd say it is a good choice of words.

Not if they did not accurately reflect what I meant ...

>Oh,  you can do it.  You need to cut Social Security and/or Medicaxx and/or
>Defense and/or Corporate Welfare.  Or raise taxes.

As I understand it Phil, a reduction in spending or an increase in taxes 
from current levels aren't necessary to balance the budget in 7 (6?) years.
(Although it may be desireable)

What needs to stop is the continuous increases well beyond inflationary
and participation adjustments in the programs. 

Doug.
 

    didjoo realize that the average driver would get $27 PER YEAR back if
    this idiot tax were repealed?

    The $27 per year (I figured $20 for me) would get eaten up in the
    next gas price increase, though, so the oil companies would end up
    getting it.
    
    The price has gone up 20 cents since February.
    

>    The price has gone up 20 cents since February.
    
Depends where you are.  I was paying 1.099 in February.  I paid 1.269 today.

    
    	Oooh, can I play ?
    
    	I was paying 1.199 in February, and paid 1.339 on Tuesday.
    
    

    I haven't paid over $1.23 a gallon this year.

    I was payin .509 a liter in February, now I'm paying .595.  

    
      The UN and Iraq are engaged in secretive negotiations over opening
     the spigot on Iraqi oil.  Much rise/fall in spot gas prices over
     the last couple days.  If negotiations succeed, prices will fall.
     If negotiations break down again, they will rise.  Boutros-Boutros
     cluless is making noises, stay tuned.
    
      bb

    Paid $1.199 yesterday. That is down from $1.299 a week ago. I think I
    was paying this much ten years ago.

    and of course, this being the start of a long weekend, it's time to
    play "can I fill up before the gas price jumps?"  Yesterday the gas was
    55.9 - I bet it goes over 60 today.

    
    
    	We have our long weekend NEXT weekend.  Can't wait.  I
    	hope the weather is nice.
    

    
      By the way, there was an implication made earlier that a decrease
     (or increase, I suppose ?) in gas taxes would somehow not alter
     the price at the pump.
    
      I don't understand that at all.  Retail gas taxes are collected
     from the buyer and go to the government.  If the rate changes, why
     wouldn't drivers see it directly ?  Enlighten me.
    
      You might argue, "Oil companies are greedy."  But oil companies
     are ALWAYS greedy, and oil prices haven't been regulated for a
     while.  They can charge anything they like for gas, just as Digital
     can charge anything it likes for computers.  So what ?  Supply and
     demand works.  If the market is even moderately efficient, and
     producers are profit maximizers, then prices are set at whatever
     level above the cost that volume times margin is largest.  This is
     a finite, definite number, and you can determine it by raising or
     lowering your prices to see if either increases your total profit.
     Oil companies always do that - they ought to.  They should raise
     prices until volume declines enough so that the maximum is reached.
    
      So why would gas taxes affect this ?  Or does somebody need an
     economics 101 refresh ?
    
      bb                                                                

    After the 1993 gas tax (4 cents per gallon), gas prices actually
    went down for awhile.

    It's one of those weird things...  :)

    > Retail gas taxes are collected  from the buyer and go to the
    > government
    
    
    	Now ask yourself, now that the govt. has the money, where does it
    go NEXT?
    
    the answers might (but probably won't) surprise you...

    Interesting little factoid.  In the '80's when the guvmint "protected"
    american car manufacturers by raising the tariffs on imports, Detroit
    simply raised the price of its cars a similar amount and begged for
    more and bigger tariffs.  The only thing I can see it did for the
    country was get Japan to employ assemblers in the US, while Detroit
    moved south of the border.
    
    meg, whose japanese imports have more US-built parts than many "US
    manufactured" brands out of Detroit.

>           <<< Note 727.32 by GAAS::BRAUCHER "Welcome to Paradise" >>>
    
>      By the way, there was an implication made earlier that a decrease
>     (or increase, I suppose ?) in gas taxes would somehow not alter
>     the price at the pump.
    
>      I don't understand that at all.  Retail gas taxes are collected
>     from the buyer and go to the government.  If the rate changes, why
>     wouldn't drivers see it directly ?  Enlighten me.
 
  Here is a belated response. If the gas tax goes down by 4 cents, and oil
companies lower the price after taxes by 4 cents, that increases demand.
The oil companies' revenue per gallon hasn't changed, but they sell more gas,
so they make more profits.
  If the gas tax goes down by 4 cents and oil companies do NOT lower the price
after taxes, the demand remains constant or decreases slightly (as a protest
over oil companies not lowering prices), but the oil companies make 4 cents
more per gallon than they did before, so they make more profits.
  It's not quite this simple, because the wholesale prices of gas would also
change in response to changes in demand.
  The most profitable action for oil companies would probably be to lower
the price to cover part of the gas tax decrease. So that is what probably
would happen.
  It looks like the proposal to repeal 4 cents of the federal gas tax is dead.
Good thing. This rise in gas taxes is a temporary glitch, and we should not
alter our tax structure in response to such glitches. (CA is a different
story; the state probably should take some sort of action.) 

    RE: gas prices

    In February, prices were about 1.09/gallon in the little town where I
    live; now $1.59 ($1.70 for premium) is the cheapest.  Of course this is
    California which has the double wammy of (a) Clinton allowing the
    export of Alaskan crude, and (b) the new regulations on cleaner burning
    fuels (which some of the gas companies were bragging that they met a
    year+ or so ago).

    -- Dave