Conference back40::soapbox

    I remember when DEC hosted the valuing differences series in the early
    90s. Boy, talk about what a flop that turned out to be. By the end of
    the 3 day conference everyone was p.o.'d at each other.
    
    Well actually it was more the people of color were p.o.'d at the
    'white' folks, cuz they (the white folks) kept saying they were color
    blind, etc. and that there was no such thing as prejiduce any more,
    even though the people of color pointed out situations that were
    obviously prejiducely motivated.
    
    And the women were p.o.'d at the guys cuz the guys kept saying that
    women were treated fine, even though the glass ceiling is pretty
    obvious, and the women pointed out that it's still a man's world.
    
    Boy talk about a good way to raise some ire...
    
    And disabilities, religion, and sexual orientation never even got into
    that picture. Oh well..
    
    Hopefully this round will be better.
    
    Who knows, maybe people have learned something in the last few years.

    Re .-1
    
    I doubt it...People are human..yet most humans are not people..
    
    so...I doubt anything will change, more catch phrases, more correct
    works, BUT NOTHING Will CHANGE...
    
    Whatta attitude...

    
    I believe it all comes down to ignorance! it's either learned at an
    early age or it's just because people are too affraid to come out of
    their little shell and experience all that life has to offer. Life is
    like one long learning process and how better than to learn from
    other's. You can't see with your eye's closed.
    
    
    -Pat-
    
    

	I think that diversity this time around is going to be specialized. And
there aren't going too many programs that are even 1 day long, never mind 3.
There is a lot you can do in a short period of time. 

	But I do agree that people hear something, and they snap. They don't
take the time to ask the person what it was they meant. They just react. You
won't get too far if you go that route. 

	But one thing that I'm sure will remain the same is that people won't
all be open to even listening. And they are the ones who usually need it the
most. 


Glen

    
    -1
    
    > the one's who need it the most won't be open
    
    that's what I mean Glen, they live in a small world which primarily
    exists around themselves. If people would just stop and take the time
    to listen and understand someone for who they are not their color,
    race, religion, or gender everyone would be alot better off. 
    
    
    -Pat-
    
    
    

    
    Patty baby.  Please disable the apostrophe on your keyboard.  We'll all
    sleep better.
    
    

    re .0
    
    White men were getting attention? In what way, other than to be blamed
    for everything wrong with the world?
    
    I don't recall white men getting any special attention, especially in
    regards to valuing their diversity..??
    
    John

    So Glen-
    
    Is this why I had to type (print) up a silly badge with your name on
    it? (for the 2 day thingie in SHR)?

| <<< Note 712.5 by FABSIX::P_OHALLORAN "OU812" >>>


| that's what I mean Glen, they live in a small world which primarily
| exists around themselves. If people would just stop and take the time
| to listen and understand someone for who they are not their color,
| race, religion, or gender everyone would be alot better off.

	Pat, you are filled with wisdom! 

| <<< Note 712.7 by TEXAS1::SOBECKY "It's complicated." >>>

| -< since when? >-

	Since now.

| White men were getting attention? In what way, other than to be blamed
| for everything wrong with the world?

	Well, besides that obvious point :-), white men do have issues. And
they should be heard. The same with religion, which was something that was not
really looked at in the past. Are there programs developed yet for these two
groups? Nope. In fact, for most groups there isn't anything formally developed.
BUT, what will be happening is the diversity group here at Digital will be
asking for input into developing plans for all groups. 

| I don't recall white men getting any special attention, especially in regards 
| to valuing their diversity..??

	I don't think they were, BEFORE. 


Glen

| <<< Note 712.8 by GMASEC::KELLY "Not The Wrong Person" >>>

| Is this why I had to type (print) up a silly badge with your name on
| it? (for the 2 day thingie in SHR)?

	Hee hee.... yes, this is why. Now I will definitely keep the badge
knowing it was made by you! :-)


Glen

    
    re: .7
    
    Diversity programs are/were created for the underdog in society.  I
    don't think most people would consider the white male an underdog. 
    
    Nancy

| <<< Note 712.12 by ASDG::NJACKSON >>>

| Diversity programs are/were created for the underdog in society.  I
| don't think most people would consider the white male an underdog.

	Nancy, they are for difference. Before they did take a flavor of the
underdog. Now it will start to include everyone. Remember, religion was not
included before, but religious people were at a disadvantage in many arenas.



Glen

    
    re: .13
    
    I see what you mean.  There will be diversity groups for every type of
    difference to celebrate that difference.  
    
    When I think of diversity I think of disadvantaged groups who need some
    type of promotion in order to be recognized and accepted as part of the
    norm. The problem is it can get carried away.  If we make every
    difference a diversity the list could go on and on.  Fat, skinny, tall,
    short, people who can swim, people who can't swim, etc... 
    
    Nancy

    This is a phrase used in Colorado alot as in the blue bumper sticker
    that proclaims  "Value diversity".     Alot of people have been 
    throwing the phrase around in the context of "think my way or you
    are wrong and not PC".   If these same people harping this would stop 
    and think they would realize that they have failed to "value diversity"
    themselves.  Don't tell me how to think.   I treat all people fairly -
    just because my morals don't match with someone elses doesn't make
    me bad or the other person bad.  I can talk to a gay person without
    seeing this (AKA treat them like everyone else) and do business with them 
    but I do not believe in gay marriage for example.  Other people in 
    Colorado drive around with "Promote Morality" bumper stickers.  
    
    Somewhere between the 2 stupid Orwellian bumper stickers are people 
    who live and breath and think for themselves.   They even established 
    their own morals by themselves and don't need to be told how to think.   
    For  you people who need to be told how to think for yourselve - 
    read Orwell.

    The whole debate about the appropriateness of "diversity" training and
    programs is a tremendous waste of time and money for any corproation to
    be involved in.
    
    Corporations have very simple charters and can deal with the
    "diversity" issue in a very straightforward manner.  Most diversity
    training gets wrapped in with discrimination and prejudice. 
    Corporations can not afford to discriminate and they need to insure
    that the workplace is as neutral as possible.  This means that people
    are treated fairly in terms of promotions, raises, etc.  It also means
    that no actions that directly affect an individual should be tolerated. 
    It does not mean that any group needs to defer to any other group
    simply on the basis of not being a member of that group.
    
    Actions and behaviors need to be directed toward business issues.  If
    group conflict arises because of an unwillingness to accept someone,
    then that is a problem that needs to be addressed in terms of business
    impact, not social correctness.
    
    There are numerous reasons why I may or may not associate with someone
    in a work environment, but it does not mean that the work of the
    business will not be completed.  As a simple example, I would have a
    difficult time socially associating with many of the left-wing liberals
    in this conference.  I would probably not go to lunch with them or hang
    around with them except where necessary.  I would also assume that
    there are many here who would be very plaesed to not spend social time
    with me.
    
    This is not a "diversity" issue, it's a personal preference issue.  If
    I wish to associate with people who are more conservative, that is my
    choice.  When it becomes a serious detrement to the conduct of the
    business, then it should be dealt with on a one-to-one basis.
     

    
    re: .15
    > Don't tell me how to think.  I treat all people fairly -
    
    Perhaps valuing diversity seminars are not for you but I think we are,
    as a society, far from valuing all diversity equally.  I personally like
    the support a company like digital gives to its diverse population. I
    enjoy getting to know other ethnic groups and understanding where
    minority groups are coming from when they say they are ill treated
    because of traditional myths about them passed down from generation to
    generation.  
    
    re: .16
    
  >     The whole debate about the appropriateness of "diversity" training
  > and programs is a tremendous waste of time and money for any corproation to
  > be involved in.
    
    Diversity training and programs have brought us civilly forward. It
    doesn't necessarily mean someone must swallow the "whole idea" of
    each diversity.  But if diversity training and education can help
    people overcome prejudices and biases it is worth the money and effort. 
    
    Nancy 
    

    I don't see the "diversity work" having much to do do with making
    everyone in a work-group join hands and sing "We Are the World."
    
    On the other hand, there's a certain man that I support that absolutely
    _can_not bring himself to ask me a question or meet with me regarding
    stuff he really, really need to know. His habit is to call my boss or
    one particular male co-worker and have them ask me stuff and then get
    back to him. He has a real problem dealing with a woman in a role like
    mine [I'm in Finance, so it's not like I'm a woman pulling pipe or
    designing wafer steppers]
    
    This particualr attitude is a productivity drain for everyone involved.
    There are sound business reasons for attempting to "educate" this man
    to the point that he can accept a woman as expert in my area.
    
      Annie

    >Perhaps valuing diversity seminars are not for you but I think we are,
    >as a society, far from valuing all diversity equally.  
    
     I think this is an unreasonable expectation, to be quite honest. All
    diversity is not equally valuable to all people. A more reasonable and
    achievable goal is tolerance and understanding. Valuing is a bit much,
    especially for people who are being asked to "value" others whose
    beliefs, practices, etc may be 180� in opposition.

    
      I don't value diversity.  Actually, I prefer conformity.
    
      I tolerate others, mostly, because I figure toleration will have
     a less disagreeable outcome than any alternatives I can think up.
    
      But I'd be happier if everybody were the same.
    
      bb

    
    re: .19 
    
    >Alldiversity is not equally valuable to all people.
    
    I may not value or *need* the diversity of all groups equally either.
    I can function as a human being without each ethnic group in my life.
    But, I do value each group as having an equal right and need, as a
    human, to be fulfilled and I appreciate their contribution.
    
    re: .18 
    >   I don't see the "diversity work" having much to do do with making
    >   everyone in a work-group join hands and sing "We Are the World." 
    
    Sometimes I wish we could, Annie.  I do volunteer work for a soup
    kitchen in Clinton.  Each person there is a volunteer.  We all have
    different religious backgrounds and beginnings but we get along so
    well!  We could sing "We are the World" and really mean it.
    
    Nancy

    .18
    
    Your experience is exactly what I am talking about.  there is no need
    for a "diversity" program for this individual.  He may have his own
    reasons for not wanting to deal with you.  YOU are making the
    assumption that he can't deal with a woman in a position of powere,
    authority, etc.  YOU are making a value judgement about him.
    
    The reality may be that you remind him of his third grade teacher who
    was unfair and treated him like crap and he can't deal with that.  It
    may have nothing to do with you and your position.
    
    What is important is that his inability to deal with you is having a
    negative impact on the business purpose of Digital.  That is
    unacceptable.  His manager needs to sit down and let him know that his
    actions are counterproductive and costing Digital and that won't be
    tolerated.  This removes all of the "touchy-feely" stuff from the issue
    and get to the heart of the matter.
    
    His action are bad for Digital.  Either he shapesup or ships out.  If
    he needs to go to counseling, because he can't deal with a woman in
    your position, that's what he needs to do.  What Digital does not need
    to do is spend a lot of money and time having people go to classes that
    they neither need not want.  focus on the purpose of why we are here
    and not what we would like for the world.  Let's keep the '60s
    mentality out of the workplace.
    

 Z   But one thing that I'm sure will remain the same is that people won't
 Z   all be open to even listening. And they are the ones who usually need
 Z   it the most. 
    
    What is being proposed here, per usual, is a bandaid approach to a very
    large issue.  A five hour seminar won't even begin to scratch the
    surface...not even start it.  Secondly, as people we are inbred with
    biases, convictions, and prejudices.  This is why Glen, I find your
    assertion above to be the height of hyposrisy and elitism...considering
    you come from the very same seed as everybody else.  Mr. Rocush is 100%
    correct in his assertion that this little exercise you seem to foist
    upon the masses has little to do with diversity and alot more with
    conformity.  We have people in this very conference, including myself,
    who have spent years in an on line valuing diversity exercise.  I find
    this forum to be stimulating for the reasons obvious to all.  One, I
    come here of my own free volition.  Secondly, I am here to listen and
    not only to speak, third, there is very little interference from the
    moderators.  It allows room for honesty and candor.  
    
    The diversity seminars you propose Glen, although well intentioned,
    would be best served if they were not compulsory.  I for one am not
    interested in a three day pissing contest between factions in a
    seminar nevermind having to suffer a five hour diatribe from a social
    worker out of the Boston area.  I believe a new strategy is in order.  
    
    -Jack

    
    re: .22
    
    I think having a manager handle all gender, ethnic, etc. problems is a
    utopia thought.  I don't see all managers handling or wanting to handle
    situations such as Annie has.  I've seen managers know about problems 
    and do nothing about them, or knows what is going on and doesn't consider 
    it a problem, or doesn't "sense" what is going on.  I've seen managers and
    supervisors with *no* people skills! Having a "manager" title or
    "supervisor" title doesn't mean they have any more diversity skills or
    diversity understanding than anyone else!
    
    Nancy
     

| <<< Note 712.15 by CSC32::C_BENNETT >>>


| This is a phrase used in Colorado alot as in the blue bumper sticker that 
| proclaims "Value diversity". Alot of people have been throwing the phrase 
| around in the context of "think my way or you are wrong and not PC".   

	Any diversity that is brought out of things will not be in this light.
No one can make you believe differently if you are not willing to change,
listen, etc. But as long as you know how it is under Digital Policy, that is
what is important. From listening to people around here (here in Digital), a
lot of people think there is no diversity policy anymore, and that it's ok to
treat others like crap.

| I treat all people fairly 

	This is where you fail. YOU treat all people fairly. This is
commendable. But what of all those poeple who don't? This is why it is
for all, not some. Hell, I think I have a pretty good handle on the 
diversity thing until I start talking with people who show me things I
didn't realize, or things that I have just always thought/said that were
really pretty stupid. I find I learn about a lot of things just by listening,
asking, etc. Someone could name off a 100 different reasons for racism. And
what happens? Individuals automatically think it is being directed at each
person. Hell no. There might be parts of the 100 reasons that may apply to any
individual. But definitely not all 100. But if people hear one that does not
apply to them, most automatically shut it all down. 

	People seem to understand and get amazed that there are things in
computers that they did not know about. Things that may not even apply to their
jobs. But if it is diversity, they shut it out. Listen to what is being said.
Take in what applies to you, if anything. It does not mean that you are going
to change your view of <insert whatever>, but it might change your approach
towards it.

| just because my morals don't match with someone elses doesn't make me bad or 
| the other person bad.  

	I agree.

| I can talk to a gay person without seeing this (AKA treat them like everyone 
| else) and do business with them but I do not believe in gay marriage for 
| example.  

	And in the work place, what you wrote above makes perfect sense. But I
bet you would learn a thing or two if you went to a gay diversity event. It
doesn't mean your mind will change, but your knowledge will.



Glen

| <<< Note 712.16 by ACISS1::ROCUSH >>>

| The whole debate about the appropriateness of "diversity" training and
| programs is a tremendous waste of time and money for any corproation to
| be involved in.

	Not really. Like I said, we (Digital) go to other countries and don't
really care about them. That is hurting us in the foreign market share. Even
corporate realizes this. This is part of the whole package.

| Actions and behaviors need to be directed toward business issues.  If
| group conflict arises because of an unwillingness to accept someone,
| then that is a problem that needs to be addressed in terms of business
| impact, not social correctness.

	Most people don't know all that Digital requires. It is stupid to wait
until something happens to make corrective actions. If people know about it up
front, then there is more of a chance of things not happening. 

| There are numerous reasons why I may or may not associate with someone in a 
| work environment, but it does not mean that the work of the business will not 
| be completed.  

	I know people where the work did not get completed because of it. But
associating with people at work is not what the issue is.


Glen

    re. Nancy
    
    I do not think that Corporate America has any place trying to address
    the larger issues of diversity in society. Trying to fix the larger
    issues diffuses a lot of time and energy and will be doomed to fail at
    achieving what is essential to workplace diversity work. Achieving the
    essentials is a big job to begin with.
    
    A diverse group of volunteers working at Habitat for Humanity or a soup
    kitchen or with League of Conservation Voters is choosing to associate
    around a common interest or cause. No doubt, issues will arise as
    people's differences emerge and come into conflict; but there is a
    built-in motivation to solve them as they arise. [even if it isn't
    always easy]
    
    A work-group generally doesn't choose to associate, but is chosen to
    associate. These individuals come to the table with conflicting
    priorities and goals. They are also, on some levels, in competition
    with one another for raises, promotions, and recognition. There has to
    be firm, consistent guidance and re-inforcement from management to
    focus on what is essential in the work and to accord those one is
    working with respect as a team member as long as one is being a good
    team player. Dragging differences that have no effect upon the work at
    hand [gender, ethnicity, veteran status, sexual orientation, etc] into
    how we team is not productive. It's not that we should be gender-blind
    or colour-blind or .... In fact, IMO that is counter-productive.
    Without getting into some deep cultural over-view, I think that some
    knowledge about how a person's difference could colour a POV is _so_
    good to have in working in diverse groups.
    
    It think that corporate diversity efforts focusing on working together
    as it impacts the bottom line _can_ have an effect on the greater issue
    in society as people _might_ carry forward what works for better
    teaming at work into their lives in the community. But then, again,
    there will probably always be differences that some individuals or
    groups have to draw the line at in their personal lives.
    
      Annie

| <<< Note 712.23 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| What is being proposed here, per usual, is a bandaid approach to a very large 
| issue. A five hour seminar won't even begin to scratch the surface...not even 
| start it.  

	As usual, Jack... you are wrong. At the diversity forum we had just a 1
hour discussion on homosexuality. Guess what? The heterosexuals who attended
did learn a lot of valuable things. They were quite happy with what they
learned. Maybe with YOU it may not scrtch or start it, but I give people as a
whole more credit than that.

| Secondly, as people we are inbred with biases, convictions, and prejudices.  

	Yes, but religion is a freedom in this country. So isn't being a person
of colour, a woman, gay, ethnic, etc. Being imbred with biases, and just
leaving it that was is an ignorant approach, wouldn't you say? It is better for
each of us to ask and find out what is really going on, and not assume. This is
a way to find out those things. If in the end you still feel like your mind has
not changed, so be it. You don't have to change. But you need to know the
rules.

| This is why Glen, I find your assertion above to be the height of hyposrisy 
| and elitism...considering you come from the very same seed as everybody else. 

	Well Jack, viewing it from the viewpoint you are, I can see why you
feel that way. And you would be 100% correct. There is just one small
problem... your version of my view is 100% wrong.

| The diversity seminars you propose Glen, although well intentioned, would be 
| best served if they were not compulsory. I for one am not interested in a 
| three day pissing contest between factions in a seminar nevermind having to 
| suffer a five hour diatribe from a social worker out of the Boston area. I 
| believe a new strategy is in order.

	Well Jack, the diversity things will be shorter, and a faster pace.
That is due to money and time concerns. But from what you wrote above, I'm not
sure any seminar would help, as it appears you aren't willing to even listen.
And to me, anyway, that is sad.



Glen

Z    Not really. Like I said, we (Digital) go to other countries and don't
Z    really care about them. That is hurting us in the foreign market share.
Z    Even corporate realizes this. This is part of the whole package.
    
    Glen, could you provide an example of this?  I'm seriously curious.  I
    would say that the United States is far more open to diversity than
    much of the economic powers in this world.  Certainly moreso than many
    of the monolithic countries in Asia, certainly more than the United
    Arab Emerates and OPEC participants.  Furthermore, the relationships
    within the British Isles are certainly less valuing of diversity than
    the United States.
    
    I'm going to be frank Glen, I think the above is disingenuous.  I don't
    believe that corporate perceptions throughout the global economy is the
    primary force behind the resurrection of the diversity issue.  
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 712.29 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Glen, could you provide an example of this? I'm seriously curious. I would 
| say that the United States is far more open to diversity than much of the 
| economic powers in this world.  

	Yeah, our own, not anyone elses. When in Japan they have compounds set
up. There are certain things that can and can't be allowed into them. We
brought and did what we wanted. (that was brought up by one of the people at
the forum) Pacific Asia is not doing nearly what it could because of the
barriers we have. Much of what I said above. This one was brought up by the
person who has a large stake in that unit. It's there, Jack.

| I'm going to be frank Glen, I think the above is disingenuous.  

	Of course you do. Now all you need to do is wait for the answer before
you state the claim.

| I don't believe that corporate perceptions throughout the global economy is 
| the primary force behind the resurrection of the diversity issue.

	Who said it was THE issue? There are many more. Do you know that we
lose, or we don't get key people based on our diversity practices? This issue
was brought up by many people who were hiring managers at the meeting. Sorry,
Jack... there is no ONE reason for why they are interested in getting things
started... there are several. 


Glen

Z    Well Jack, the diversity things will be shorter, and a faster pace.
Z    That is due to money and time concerns. But from what you wrote above,
Z    I'm not
Z    sure any seminar would help, as it appears you aren't willing to even
Z    listen.  And to me, anyway, that is sad.
    
    Glen, whether you believe it to be sad or not does not concern me.  I
    made my points quite clear at the last three day discussion we had and
    I will simply echo them again.  Diversity in a society, or as Dick
    Binder pointed out to me, "E Pluribus Unum", is/was the backbone of the
    building of this nation.  Michele's Grandparents came over from Ellis
    Island and my Great Grandparents came from England and Scotland.  I see
    diversity in general as a valuable commodity in this country, I see
    some diversity as just plain rotten.
    
    Now you speak of the rules...well Glen, as far as I can see, the rules
    as I understand them stand on the ability to treat my fellow carbon
    units as individuals with free thought, free will, and respect.  This
    DOES NOT always require the necessity to accept anything that comes down 
    the pike.  As far as the corporation goes, equality should be a standard
    for ALL that is based on merit, character, and the ability to perform.
    Something I see grossly nelected by both the bigots and the diversity
    crowd.  I see nothing virtuous by either side frankly. 
    
    As far as my gleaning information from the seminars, Glen, you are 100% 
    correct.  It probably wouldn't be the place for me because I would
    go into it with suspicion.  You'd be better off with individuals who
    either haven't taken the course or think in the same manner you do.
    
    nd another thing, please refrain from painting me in the bigot box. 
    I'm not telling you not to have these seminars.  I'm merely pointing
    out to you that me previous experiences were drenched in observing a
    two day pissing contest and small clusters of mutual admiration
    societies.  Compulsory...doesn't...cut...it!
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 712.31 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| I see diversity in general as a valuable commodity in this country, I see
| some diversity as just plain rotten.

	Yeah, like a owner of a chinese restaurant yelling at someone in
chinese is bad. I don't see you as a diverse person in too many areas. (out of
the ones I have seen)

| Now you speak of the rules...well Glen, as far as I can see, the rules
| as I understand them stand on the ability to treat my fellow carbon
| units as individuals with free thought, free will, and respect.  This
| DOES NOT always require the necessity to accept anything that comes down
| the pike.  

	Jack, again you have not read anything in this string. Show me a note
of mine where I said anyone has to accept anything. You can't do it, because
there are none. Please take your head out of your bbbbiases and listen to what
is being said. You might even be taken seriously.

| As far as the corporation goes, equality should be a standard for ALL that is 
| based on merit, character, and the ability to perform. Something I see grossly
| nelected by both the bigots and the diversity crowd. I see nothing virtuous 
| by either side frankly.

	Of course not. You'd have to be willing to open your eyes, which your
notes show to *me*, anyway, you aren't willing to do. You hear the name
Clinton, you turn into your normal slam mode. You for the longest time had me
voting strictly Democratic, even though I vote for who I think is best, and
told you that on several occassions. You have the Mrs. Dougherty's of the
world, etc. What you do is put people into packages based on certain words you
hear. And when you do that, you end up losing out on a great deal.

| As far as my gleaning information from the seminars, Glen, you are 100% 
| correct.  It probably wouldn't be the place for me because I would go into it 
| with suspicion.  

	Of course you would. I sometimes really believe you don't have the
capability to listen. Just put people into neat little packages. Your notes
show me this.

| You'd be better off with individuals who either haven't taken the course or 
| think in the same manner you do.

	No, you would be included into the course as well. The people who need
it most are the ones who NEED to be there.

| And another thing, please refrain from painting me in the bigot box.

	When did I do that, Jack? Please point it out. Maybe you're just seeing
something in the notes that hit home. 


Glen

Z Yeah, like a owner of a chinese restaurant yelling at someone in
Z chinese is bad. I don't see you as a diverse person in too many areas. (out of
Z the ones I have seen)

Out of context.  Yelling at a subordinate in front of customers is poor business
protocol...PERIOD!  My point was if he has the gumption to perhaps call the kid
an Ahole or any other abusive term, have the guts to do so for all to hear.

| As far as the corporation goes, equality should be a standard for ALL that is 
| based on merit, character, and the ability to perform. Something I see grossly
| nelected by both the bigots and the diversity crowd. I see nothing virtuous 
| by either side frankly.

Z	Of course not. You'd have to be willing to open your eyes, which your
Z notes show to *me*, anyway, you aren't willing to do. You hear the name
Z Clinton, you turn into your normal slam mode. 

This is an example of you putting me into the bigot box.  My feelings toward 
Bill Clinton center strictly around integrity, character, and patriotism...
all of which he has proven to be lacking.  I admire Bill Clinton for proving 
he can fulfill the American dream.  I resent Bill Clinton for his poor
judgement...and mainly his lack of contriteness.  

Z You for the longest time had me
Z voting strictly Democratic, even though I vote for who I think is best, and
Z told you that on several occassions. You have the Mrs. Dougherty's of the
Z world, etc. What you do is put people into packages based on certain words you
Z hear. And when you do that, you end up losing out on a great deal.

Glen, you are in cahoots with the Kings and Queens of categorizing...don't sit
there shamelessly telling me what I do wrong.  Mrs. Dougherty, Glen, is
representative of the village idiots...and there are plenty of them Glen.  
This has nothing to do with bigotry, it has everything to do with common sense,
the very element the Mrs. Dougherty's of the world seem to lack.

Z Of course you would. I sometimes really believe you don't have the
Z capability to listen. Just put people into neat little packages. Your notes
Z show me this.

Glen, fine....what makes you any more virtuous than me in this effort?  You
made a pejorative statement about republicans a few replies back...inferring 
they were heartless toward welfare recipients.

| You'd be better off with individuals who either haven't taken the course or 
| think in the same manner you do.

Z No, you would be included into the course as well. The people who need
Z it most are the ones who NEED to be there.

Glen, you have absolutely no idea how I interface with peers, management, and
customers in the position I'm in.  Your implication above is based on your
perception and nothing of fact.  How I feel about things and how I personally
treat people in the work place are at times similar and at other times quite
different.  Therefore, you have NOT established anything to back your claim I
NEED to be there.  

| And another thing, please refrain from painting me in the bigot box.

Z When did I do that, Jack? Please point it out. Maybe you're just seeing
Z something in the notes that hit home. 

from above:

 No, you would be included into the course as well. The people who need
 it most are the ones who NEED to be there.

Why do I need to be there Glen, since you seem to think I above all other NEED
to be there?  Tell me by what authority or by what measure have you placed 
your virtue of accepting people above mine.  I'd be interested in knowing.

-Jack

    .26
    
    I had two responses to your note about dealing Internationally.  the
    first is understanding customs, the second is diversity.  The first is
    absolutely mandatory and any corporation that ignores it is stupid and
    deserves to lose business.  The second has basically no place in
    business.
    
    If I want to work in an Internantional market, I'd better understand
    the customes and traditions in that market.  I'd better make sure that
    I follow them at all times or I lose - and I should.
    
    Now, taking the concept of diversity into consideration you get a real
    sticky problem.  We want to value diversity, etc, etc and train
    everyone to put this into practice.  Now as a dutiful employee and
    person I make sure that I don't offend anyone from my domestic group
    and make sure I include everyone.  Well, my Internation customer
    doesn't think that one of the members of my group is appropriate and
    because of my inclusion and "touchy-feely" attitude I lose the
    business.  AND I SHOULD.  If I want to compete in a market, I'd better
    udnerstand it.
    

| <<< Note 712.33 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Out of context.  Yelling at a subordinate in front of customers is poor business
| protocol...PERIOD!  My point was if he has the gumption to perhaps call the kid
| an Ahole or any other abusive term, have the guts to do so for all to hear.

	Thanks for proving it was not out of context. You do that so well, too.

| This is an example of you putting me into the bigot box.  My feelings toward
| Bill Clinton center strictly around integrity, character, and patriotism...
| all of which he has proven to be lacking.  I admire Bill Clinton for proving
| he can fulfill the American dream.  I resent Bill Clinton for his poor
| judgement...and mainly his lack of contriteness.

	Jack, it was one of MANY examples I gave to you putting people into
neat little boxes. If you view it as you being a bigot, then maybe you should
address that issue. 

| Glen, you are in cahoots with the Kings and Queens of categorizing...don't sit
| there shamelessly telling me what I do wrong.  Mrs. Dougherty, Glen, is
| representative of the village idiots...and there are plenty of them Glen.
| This has nothing to do with bigotry, it has everything to do with common sense,
| the very element the Mrs. Dougherty's of the world seem to lack.

	Mrs. Dougherty does not vote the way you feel she should. You view her
as an idiot without even actually knowing her. This is what I am talking about.
Neat little boxes. 

| Glen, fine....what makes you any more virtuous than me in this effort?  You
| made a pejorative statement about republicans a few replies back...inferring
| they were heartless toward welfare recipients.

	Yes, I did. Based on their voting record, on their ideas they put
forward. 

| Glen, you have absolutely no idea how I interface with peers, management, and
| customers in the position I'm in.  Your implication above is based on your
| perception and nothing of fact.  

	Yes, you are correct. It is mostly based on what you say in here, and
what you were saying about diversity programs. 

| How I feel about things and how I personally treat people in the work place 
| are at times similar and at other times quite different. Therefore, you have 
| NOT established anything to back your claim I NEED to be there.

	I based it on your own words. If your views are different, then please
correct it. Pretty simple....

| No, you would be included into the course as well. The people who need
| it most are the ones who NEED to be there.

	Jack, that does not make you a bigot. I know many people who need to be
there. Me being one of them. You need to look at what you are saying, and
compare it to what I am saying. Two different things. 

| Why do I need to be there Glen, since you seem to think I above all other NEED
| to be there?  Tell me by what authority or by what measure have you placed
| your virtue of accepting people above mine.  I'd be interested in knowing.

	You definitely need it. I definitely need it. Those who really think
they got a handle on things are always the last to realize they don't always. 


Glen

	Rocush.... I think you fail to see what diversity is. When you said
recognizing the other people's customs, and making sure you live by them or
lose, you have taken one of the many sides of diversity and put it into play.
Diversity is not just about valuing someone else. It has many forms.
Internationally the one you talked of is one of them. Now if we are not
following their customs, then we show them we don't value their customs. We
just want our own. So the two in this case, go together.


Glen

    
    I personally think this topic should be renamed to the OJ and Glen
    topic.
    
    Valuing diversity is just another PC, "touchy, feely" concept. The
    company spends big bucks on programs like this, but cuts off valuable
    training for engineers on Windows NT and other new products that
    they are required to support.

    
    A few years back I participated in a similar seminar here at
    mother Digital.
    
    I'm not sure how others have gone but I did learn in our
    meeting more about other cultures and I found it helped when
    I interacted with coworkers of those cultures.
    
    I also was able to voice my concern about how it felt to
    often be referred to so negatively as a white male. Thankfully
    my concern was also deemed worthy of consideration.
    
    					Hank

>            <<< Note 712.38 by HANNAH::MODICA "Journeyman Noter" >>>
    
>    I also was able to voice my concern about how it felt to
>    often be referred to so negatively as a white male. Thankfully
>    my concern was also deemed worthy of consideration.

	By other white males? ;>  (just kidding)

    re Nancy Jackson
    
    In reply .12 you say that you don'tconsider white males as being an
    underdog. This implies that you think they don't merit consideration as
    to valuing their diversity. Yet in reply .21 you say you value each
    group as having an equal right and need...
    
    You cannot level the playing field for all groups, just to make the
    playing field equal. This is not a good idea and is contrary to the
    laws of nature. If you do this, you only bring the overall level of
    humanachievement down to a mediocre level.  Nobody benefits from this
    in the long run; everbody loses.
    
    Now, if you want to have equal opportunity for everyone, I'm all for
    it. But let's make the rules the same for everyone, and encourage
    excellence, not some average.
    
    I personally would trade six weeks of diversity training for one good
    day of training on Digital's new products. That would benefit me,
    Digital, and the customer, immensely more than diversity training.
    
    I train Digital's customers, from every continent on the globe, on
    DEC's hardware and software products, usully without formal training on
    these products myself. That's what I'm paid to do. In eight years, I
    have never had one issue as to diversity or culture. This even though I
    have benn nface to face with practically every cross section of
    humanity imaginable. How? Just by using common sense, listening before
    I speak, and using basic respect for another human being.
    
    Nothing else is necessary. Diversity programs are for furthering
    certain group's agendas, and for a way of having them heard where they
    might not otherwise be heard.
    
    Management's job is to settle issues where intolerance impacts the
    workplace. We don't need to waste money on formal training...they never
    worked, and never will work.
    
    And no, I don't think that the programs are worth whatever they cost if
    they succeed in changing someone's prejudice/bias. Prejudice and bias
    are natural things, part of the natural selection process. They only
    become an issue if they impact business.
    
    Snd the HR people to these seminars; let them deal with issues. Use 10%
    of the money saved to buy me new hardware.
    
    John

    .36
    
    I was replying to your note about dealing in  International markets. 
    Diversity training here is, IMNSHO, a waste of time and money.  There
    have been numerous notes here about how this is viewed and what it is
    intended to accomplish.  These may be valid goals, but have no place in
    a work environment.  Corporations are not social experiments.  I work
    in order to achieve the things that I believe are important to me.  As
    long as I do not do anything that negatrively impacts the company I
    work for, then leave me alone and do not waste my time or the company's
    money on "touchy-feely" crap.  If I am unable to deal with certain
    groups of people, then that will affect my job and the corporation.  At
    that point I will need to do something or leave the company.  But it is
    personal to me.
    
    Also, if you take the diversity issue to it's logically extreme end
    then no one needs to change anything or have a different view of
    anyone.  Follow me on this.  If diversity training means to understand
    what motivates an individual and what they may or may not feel is
    important and you need to understand and deal with that, then the end
    result is nonsense.  We tend to think of this interms of minorities,
    etc.  Well, what about the bigot or racist.  You need to understand
    what this persons motivations are, his background, upbringing, etc.  If
    you are going to value this difference, then he needs not change,
    thereby leaving you exactly where you started.
    
    What this means to me is that some people have a specific agenda and
    clothe it in psychologial and socialogical goobldy-gook and that's
    suppose to mean something.  It does not belong in a corporation.
    

    Glen:
    
    All suspicions aside, I am going to try a different approach to the
    problem.
    
    In all fairness, the Valdif course I took was mainly comprised of young 
    kids (that's right...kids) who were wet behind the ears and fresh out
    of college.  This may possibly explain why the two days were mainly a
    pissing contest.  Most of them felt they had the right to be heard and
    thought they were still in college.  I believe open mindedness, even in
    a two day pissing contest, can glean something of value to bring back
    to the workplace.  I for one actually spent 90% of the class time
    listening...I figured it was a waste of breath to try to compete with 
    some of the zealots who participated in the class.  
    
    My job at DEC, (Yes I do have a job here! :-)), is to promote and sell
    our wide variety of systems and peripherals...ranging from networking
    to software.  I find that years and experience have been my greatest
    teachers in learning to deal with the public.  I am well versed in 
    understanding and responding to their hot buttons, their needs, and
    their business objectives.  Some of the accounts I deal with
    extensively are Lawrence Livermore Labs, Massachusetts Institute of 
    Technology, Loral, Lockheed, and other government primes and
    engineering firms.  My exposure to customers from other cultures is
    quite high compared to that of my peers.  I've been at it for five
    years and I have yet to have any kind of conflict or problem with any 
    of these individuals.  Our relationships are quite amiable...and
    profitable.
    
    Now Glen, I think it is time to take the honesty pill.  I'm going to
    make a supposition here and I want you to be honest.  I don't doubt
    your concern for Diversity and the valuing of individuals from all
    walks of life.  However, I believe the driving force in your passion
    for this whole diversity thing...is all about who you are.  You are
    using the strong arm of the diversity crowd here at mother DEC to
    forward the acceptance of gays and gay rights.  You'll have to excuse
    me but if this be the case, I see this as an exploitation of the system
    and an abuse of corporate funds.  Compulsory Corporate Social
    Engineering (CCSE)...that's what I call it.   
    
    No offense, nothing personal here...just a sneeking suspicion on my
    part.  I happen to have a very good rapport with my customers and with
    my peers.  Soapbox as a measurement is absurd at best and you know it.
    By the way, your assertion of racism toward Chinese restaurant owners
    is also absurd.
    
    -Jack

    
    re: .40
    
    I don't consider the white male as being an underdog.  The white male
    has always had the upper hand in politics, business, male/female
    relationships, etc. in my lifetime.  
    
    But, I do believe, and will celebrate the white male as a diverse
    group.  The consideration I will give the white male for being a white
    male is a celebration of his white maleness.  There are other groups
    which need more help and support than the white male.
    
    Nancy

    
    re: .27
    
    I guess your right Annie! I was dreaming to think valuing diversity
    could work in a work place as effectively as it works in a volunteer
    group.  Sometimes I get carried away wishing instead of living
    completely in reality!
    
    Nancy

Z    But, I do believe, and will celebrate the white male as a diverse
Z    group.  The consideration I will give the white male for being a
Z    white male is a celebration of his white maleness.
    
    Nancy, this may sound a little callous...but the point being made here
    is....we don't want you to celebrate our white maleness...at least I
    don't.  I get absolutely no gratification from you celebrating my white
    maleness, there are no favors or positive strokes in this.  
    
    I am one of those white males who spout off "colorblindness".  It is
    something the diversity crowd strives for and yet it is something your
    celebrating seems to eschew.  
    
    -Jack

    Re: .45
    
    No problem! To each his own Jack.
    
    Nancy

    Or, Jack a son gout
    

    {standing ovation}

    Jack has a kid with gout??

    
    Jack has a kid that pouts?

Mark, wouldn't you if Jack were your daddy?

| <<< Note 712.37 by ACISS1::BATTIS "Chicago Bulls-1996 world champs" >>>


| Valuing diversity is just another PC, "touchy, feely" concept. The company 
| spends big bucks on programs like this, but cuts off valuable training for 
| engineers on Windows NT and other new products that they are required to 
| support.

	The money spent on diversity will pay itself back. Especially with the
shorter seminars.



Glen

| <<< Note 712.41 by ACISS1::ROCUSH >>>

| I was replying to your note about dealing in  International markets.
| Diversity training here is, IMNSHO, a waste of time and money.  

	The two are connected. What, do you think if we're always in a mode of
doing as we please, that somehow we won't screw up just because we are in an
international market place? Be real. How do you think we screwed it up this
far? From not giving a damn. There is nothing wrong with awareness.

| Corporations are not social experiments. I work in order to achieve the things
| that I believe are important to me. As long as I do not do anything that 
| negatrively impacts the company I work for, then leave me alone and do not 
| waste my time or the company's money on "touchy-feely" crap.  

	This is exactly what I am talking about. If you can not interact with
others, then you are hurting the corporation. And the things that may keep you
from interacting with others may be as simple as knowing what is going on with
them. Knowledge can get people a lot farther than making mistakes because you
did not know better. Here is an example of what I am talking about:

	You can not work with worker "A". For some reason the two of you just
can't seem to pull it all together. So what happened? It turns out that one, or
both of you pissed the other off doing something you didn't even realize was
wrong. So all this time wasted could have been avoided if either one had known
ahead of time what pissed the other one off. 

	Now you may not think things like this happens, but they do. 

| If I am unable to deal with certain groups of people, then that will affect 
| my job and the corporation. At that point I will need to do something or 
| leave the company.  

	So we should only deal with things if they turn into problems? We
shouldn't try to avoid the problems if we know they are happening elsewhere? 

| We tend to think of this interms of minorities, etc.  

	And when you do this, you don't have it 100% correct.

| Well, what about the bigot or racist. You need to understand what this persons
| motivations are, his background, upbringing, etc. If you are going to value 
| this difference, then he needs not change, thereby leaving you exactly where 
| you started.

	Wrong. If someone has an action that hurts another, then the action has
to stop (if the action is proven to be wrong). One can be a bigot and a racist
and have a great life at Digital. Diversity is not going to change people's
minds. It is going to make them aware. What one does with the new awareness is
up to the individual.



Glen

Speaking of diversity, today's Dilbert is a hoot.

    
    	My source is 1-2 weeks behind ... is it on-line anywhere?
    

| <<< Note 712.42 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| I don't doubt your concern for Diversity and the valuing of individuals from 
| all walks of life. However, I believe the driving force in your passion for 
| this whole diversity thing...is all about who you are.  

	Wrong, once again, Jack. There is so much more to diversity than gay,
lesbian, bisexual or transgenered. So please, don't even go down that road
you're paving. It is a dead end. 

	Jack, considering I have been to many diversity events here, and only 2
of them had to do with gay and lesbian issues, you are, as almost always,
wrong. 

| You are using the strong arm of the diversity crowd here at mother DEC to
| forward the acceptance of gays and gay rights. You'll have to excuse me but 
| if this be the case, I see this as an exploitation of the system and an abuse 
| of corporate funds. 

	Wow.... what a wind up! Jack, your mind is like the sky today... foggy.

| No offense, nothing personal here...just a sneeking suspicion on my part.  

	To think if you didn't distrust people so much, you could actually
learn something.

| I happen to have a very good rapport with my customers and with my peers.  
| Soapbox as a measurement is absurd at best and you know it.

	Uh huh.... Jack, people have been thought to be great, yet then it's
found out they are wife beaters, drug users, etc. So how you appear, and how
you are, could be different. I don't know.

| By the way, your assertion of racism toward Chinese restaurant owners
| is also absurd.

	Them's your words... not mine.


Glen

| <<< Note 712.45 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Nancy, this may sound a little callous...but the point being made here is....
| we don't want you to celebrate our white maleness...at least I don't.  

	Gee, you complained enough about your white maleness in the past. Maybe
Nancy thought you were wanting people to take a look at you.

| I am one of those white males who spout off "colorblindness".  

	If it were blindness, you would not put people into neat little
packages. But you do, so how can this be true?



Glen

 Z   The two are connected. What, do you think if we're always in a mode of
 Z   doing as we please, that somehow we won't screw up just because we are
 Z   in an
 Z   international market place? Be real. How do you think we screwed it up
 Z   this far? From not giving a damn. There is nothing wrong with awareness.
    
    Glen, we are not doing as we please...that's just the point.  Good
    business in the international market requires a knowledge of who your
    customer is and what is considered acceptable to them.  For example
    Glen, if Digital is selling 200 Alpha servers to the Saudi Government,
    then it stands to reason that we as a corporation would not send a
    woman of Jewish background to conduct the business.  It has nothing to
    do with our biases but has more to do with us catering to theirs.  
    Saudi Arabia is NOT interested in celebrating diversity with us.  They
    are interested in getting Alpha Servers and maintaining what they
    believe to be important to their convictions.  Rooted in bigotry...of
    course..but not really our concern.  
    
    Before you judge what I wrote above, keep in mind the Clinton
    Administration continues to give China, a repressive slave state
    most favored nation trading status.  It's all about politics mon!
    
    Z   How do you think we screwed it up
  Z   this far? From not giving a damn. There is nothing wrong with
  Z   awareness.
    
    Glen, you're right...there is nothing wrong with awareness.  The
    problem is you are using a bandage to cure a head cold.  International
    trade is a far more complex issue than you seem to make it out to be. 
    If you really believe that these mini social engineering sessions are
    going to bring awareness of a multi-complex and intricite science such
    as foreign trade, then you are in for a rude awakening.
    
    I still am suspicious about this.  I don't believe foreign trade really
    plays a part in this.  Product Managers, Sales Managers, Executives of
    the General International Area...this may be very appropriate for them
    as it is a piece of the International game we play.  Sending the
    pipsqueeks to this course....?  No, something smells here.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 712.59 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Glen, we are not doing as we please...that's just the point.  

	No, we ARE doing what we please. It results in us not looking into the
customs. 

| Glen, you're right...there is nothing wrong with awareness. The problem is you
| are using a bandage to cure a head cold. International trade is a far more 
| complex issue than you seem to make it out to be.

	Jack, I got the info from the person who deals as one of the top
managers for Asia Pacific. I think they know what is going on far greater than
you or I. 

| I still am suspicious about this. I don't believe foreign trade really plays 
| a part in this.  

	It does. Global diversity is where we HAVE to be. 



Glen

Z    Gee, you complained enough about your white maleness in the past. Maybe
Z    Nancy thought you were wanting people to take a look at you.
    
    Glen, I hold no allegiance to white males or anybody else in one of our
    socially engineered categories you put them in.  We are all big
    boys and girls.  Let's grow up and deal with their own hang ups
    privately.  
    
    And by the way, my putting people in little boxes is at best a
    reflection of you Glen.  Don't forget, Affirmative Action is founded on
    putting people into categories and victim boxes.  Something I reject
    plainly and you cleave to wholeheartedly!

	Jack, it amazes me how you can say so much, but always be so wrong. 


Glen

    Glen, simply put...mind your business, stop being a corporate pest.  If
    you want to go to the damn thing...then go and have a good time.  I'm
    busy bringing in revenue for the company!
    
    -Jack

 Z   Jack, I got the info from the person who deals as one of the top
 Z   managers for Asia Pacific. I think they know what is going on far
 Z   greater than you or I.
    
    Good, then send the managers and account reps who sell to the Pacific
    Rim.  I handle from Texas to Colorado, then over to Missouri.
    
    -Jack

    
    	What's this "Pacific Rim" crap, and when did we start using
    	it?  What's wrong with Asia/Orient, or whatever we used to
    	call the same area?
    
    	I heard "Pac Rim" in a meeting last week and was quite conf-
    	used for a minute or so, although "process of elimination"
    	quickly told me what it meant.
    

I believe Pacific Rim includes Oz and possibly the left coast of NA.

    Also known as the ring of fire, eh?

    The Pacific Rim is a totally acceptable term.  Why not?

    Is it okay to take shots at the pacific rim?

| <<< Note 712.63 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Glen, simply put...mind your business, stop being a corporate pest. If you 
| want to go to the damn thing...then go and have a good time. I'm busy bringing
| in revenue for the company!

	How nice. So aren't I. 


Glen

I thought the ring of fire is what you get the day after you eat Mexican
food...

    Well I'm sorry to sound so brazen but I see much of this as a
    propoganda thing.  As the owner of the Candy Factory on Chitty Chitty
    Bang Bang said....
    
    
    
    Sorry...
    
    
    
    		Had your chance....
    
    
    
    				Muffed it!
    
    
    
    Tasting Time your lordship!

	Yes, Jack... I forgot you set things period. Ok....

	Understanding the cultural differences of those you deal with
	is a requirement in many jobs throughout the company.

	When I first started dealing with Singapore, we had several
	misunderstandings. The best example was when I was trying 
	to get them to pull in a prototype build schedule by a couple
	of weeks. Their response was "that will be a very difficult
	goal to achieve". In talking to the Module Operations rep
	(CXO resident) I said something like "Well, we've got a shot".
	He told me that we had no chance at all. Turns out that the
	Chinese culture has a problem with the word "no". "Very 
	difficult" was ZGO's way of saying "You're screwed".

	Over time, and with a lot of personal contact, I now have
	a relationship with the module planner in ZGO where I can
	count on him to respond in a more "Occidental" manner.

	Now I quite regularly get asked "Are you NUTS?" when asking them
	to increase the build plan once again within leadtime. 

	So even ZGO has learned to value diversity.

	Oh, BTW Jack, not availing yourself of such training in a multi-
	national corporation such as ours may have some limiting effect
	on your carreer.

Jim

    
    A good basic guide to this subject is:
    
    	"Do's and Taboos Around The World"
    
    Written by the president of the Parker Pen Co, based on his experiences
    of business dealings in many countries.  Recommended reading as an
    adjunct to Digital's own Internationalization Awareness training.
    
    Colin
    
    
    
    

    .54
    Maybe I'm not making myself clear in my replies.  Understanding customs
    and business traditions in International markets is absolutely
    critical.  this has nothing to do with valuing differences as it has
    been presented at Digital nor does it seem to be the case in which you
    are identifying.
    
    If I need to deal with a foreign culture I'd better know and understand
    aeverything about it if I expect to be successful in that market.  I do
    not, however, need to have any time or money spent on how I interact
    with my peers or fellow employees.  In the first case, I can have a
    direct impact on the success of this corporation, in the second it may
    have no effect whatsoever.
    
    As an example, there are many people in this conference alone that
    would include me on the Christmas card list, nor dinner plans.  They do
    not need to value my "diversity" nor do I their's.  We do, however,
    need to work together and if their opinion of me or my opinion of them
    interferes with the goals of Digital then one or both of us need to go. 
    Neither of us need to spend any of Digital's time or money
    understanding our diversity.  If there is information, resources,
    support from me, and is necessary to Digital's success, then I'd damn
    well better provide it.  I don't have to like it, or them, just get teh
    job done as best as possible.  Anything else is wasting money by a
    Corporation that can't afford it.
    
    Also, your comment about something being "wrong" seems to speak of an
    absolute.  Are you saying that there are some things that are a
    universal truth and need to be enforced?  this would seem to fly in the
    face of many of the things you have written previously.
    

| <<< Note 712.77 by ACISS1::ROCUSH >>>

| Maybe I'm not making myself clear in my replies. Understanding customs and 
| business traditions in International markets is absolutely critical. this has 
| nothing to do with valuing differences as it has been presented at Digital 

	Yes, what you said above is correct. The key part was, "as it has been
presented".

| nor does it seem to be the case in which you are identifying.

	Yes, it does. Part of the diversity training will be to bring the
people who deal with other cultures up to speed. By doing this, we have a
better chance of getting a bigger market share. So this would include people
like engineers, purshasing agents, sales, secretaries, legal, etc. 

	Then there are other areas where they will be having seminars which
will deal with dealing with the different cultures within Digital. Why say or
do something stupid, something that could get one screwed, when it could
possibly be avoided beforehand?

| In the first case, I can have a direct impact on the success of this 
| corporation, in the second it may have no effect whatsoever.

	Notice how you went from none, earlier, to may have no? I think you
realize that it can help. And with that, it could help the corporation as a
whole. Think about it. If someone from <insert any group> is the best candidate
for a key critical area sees that Digital is open to having others learn about
their culture, difference, etc, do you think that there is a chance this person
will more likely take the job? For many, yes, it does.

| As an example, there are many people in this conference alone that would 
| include me on the Christmas card list, nor dinner plans.  

	My guess is you meant wouldn't on the Christmas card list...

| They do not need to value my "diversity" nor do I their's.  

	You can't make anyone VALUE another's diversity. But I think you need
to pull yourself out of the old, and get your head into the new. I've been
talking awareness.

| We do, however, need to work together and if their opinion of me or my opinion
| of them interferes with the goals of Digital then one or both of us need to go
| Neither of us need to spend any of Digital's time or money understanding our 
| diversity.  

	Of course you don't need to. I mean, why try and find a way to avoid
the problems before they happen, or recognizing the problem while it is going
on? We all know that not all problems are caused by diversity issues. But there
are many for a whole host of people that it IS the reason. And it could be that
way without them even knowing it. I know for me in a lot of areas it was that
way.

	Then there is the attitude of if there is a problem, one of you must
go. Gee, all that training, all that time and money Digital invested in you
becomes wasted. That type of attitude is the wrong approach.

| Also, your comment about something being "wrong" seems to speak of an 
| absolute. Are you saying that there are some things that are a universal 
| truth and need to be enforced?  

	Wrong as one is hurting another. Take for example... if you walked up
to a woman and started to hit on her, touch her, that is wrong. It's called
sexual harrassment. So there are plenty of things that are truths.



Glen

        Z    Oh, BTW Jack, not availing yourself of such training in a multi-
        Z    national corporation such as ours may have some limiting effect
        Z    on your carreer.
    
    Jim, thanks for pointing this out to me.  Since I have already availed 
    myself of this seminar, it is something I can speak of in any interview
    or career opportunity.  But quite honestly, I have found there are
    barriers within this company like any other company which do not allow
    for growth.  The glass ceiling is there for me as well as many others.
    Am I bitter about this?  No...why should I be?  I am here for my own
    reasons and of my own free volition.  Once these needs are no longer
    met, I will move on to better opportunities.  Incidently, I have
    relinquished the idea of climbing the corporate ladder years ago.  This
    is not one of my objectives in life.
    
    -Jack

 Z   Yes, it does. Part of the diversity training will be to bring the
 Z   people who deal with other cultures up to speed. By doing this, we have
 Z   a better chance of getting a bigger market share. So this would include
 Z   people like engineers, purshasing agents, sales, secretaries, legal, etc.
    
    Glen, that's exactly what I was speaking of a few replies back.  Thanks
    for clearing this up that it would only apply to those who specifically
    deal with these other cultures.  I thought this was compulsory for all
    Digital employees the way you made it sound at first.
    
    -Jack

	Jack, you think there is a glass ceiling? Well, I'm going to hate to
admit this, but you are right. Part of it is based on training, education, how
you interact with others (internal and for some, external), things like that.
If it is based on religion, culture, difference, race, etc, then that's where
it has to be corrected.


Glen

| <<< Note 712.80 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Glen, that's exactly what I was speaking of a few replies back. Thanks for 
| clearing this up that it would only apply to those who specifically deal with 
| these other cultures.  

	Yeah, and you left off the 2nd part of what I said because.....

| I thought this was compulsory for all Digital employees the way you made it 
| sound at first.

	Nice wind up Jack, but you do yourself a disservice. When you get
around to reading the rest of the note, let me know.


Glen

    Glen,
    
    Direct it toward the managers.  I have not the time nor the interest in
    taking part with your seminars.  
    
    I am quite aware of my abilities in dealing with the public, my
    colleagues, and the management.  My participation in Soapbox is a poor
    measurement of my ability to keep a family together and hold an
    exempary rapport with my peers.
    
    However, since you brought this whole thing up, what I would be
    interested in finding out the following.
    
    I am a Sales coded individual who works under the auspices of US
    Marketing.  My customers reside in the central region of the
    country...primarily caucasion aor African American descent.  Primarily 
    Engineers and MIS Managers, Primarily native born in this country.  
    
    - In general, what would the course offer me in order to help me better
      relate to my customer base?
    
    - What specific attributes of diversity in my own microcosm will help
      me add value to Digital.  In other words, what do we haope to reveal
      in my specific world that will bring profitability to the company?
    
    - How many seminars per employee to they plan to have and considering
    the cost and the inconvenience to the customer, what is the retun hoped
    for by sponsoring these seminars?
    
    I believe these are legitimate points.  There are currently 200 members
    of this center here who would participate in this exercise.  Therefore,
    I speak on behalp of many.
    
    Thanks,
    
    -Jack

    Yes, as I suspected.

| <<< Note 712.83 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Direct it toward the managers.  I have not the time nor the interest in
| taking part with your seminars.

	Jack, that is where it is heading first. It will be up to each manager
how they want to get the word out to the employees. 

| I am quite aware of my abilities in dealing with the public, my colleagues, 
| and the management.  

	I used to think that, too. I'm far from perfect, and I know you aren't
close either.

| My participation in Soapbox is a poor measurement of my ability to keep a 
| family together and hold an exempary rapport with my peers.

	You're right... it just shows us how you really feel.

| - In general, what would the course offer me in order to help me better
| relate to my customer base?

	That would be up to your manager to decide. If I were your manager, I
would have you learn a bit about women, people of all races, etc. You can't be
that blind to think that someday your accounts won't change to another person,
and end up with someone who you know nothing about (as far as how to deal with
them). Or can you?

| I speak on behalp of many.

	No, you speak on behalp of yourself. :-)



Glen

    .78
    
    This may seem like splitting hairs, but to me there is a significant
    difference between insuring socially acceptable behavior in a workplace
    and wasting time, money and resources on a new age philosophy.
    
    By the time a child gets to grammar school they should have a very good
    understanding of what is socially acceptable and what is not.  As a
    child grows they should become more aware of the differences between
    people and respond to each person individually.  Diversity trainign, as
    I have experienced tries to group people into a stereotype and
    encourage you to make a group decision about an individual before you
    even know them.  Maybe somethings strike me as intuitively obvious, but
    using certains terms, words, etc are something you grow up learning. 
    Using a generally known derogatory term to a woman, minority, etc 
    should be generally known.  If you haven't learned that by the time you
    are a full time employee then I doubt a seminar will help.
    
    As far as your comment about sexual harrassment being an "absolute"
    wrong is concerned, I disagree.  Sexual harrassment is a recent term
    for what I was raised to know was wrong, because it was wrong, not
    because we put a name on improper behavior.  I was raised to know that
    it was wrong to touch a woman at any time in an improper fashion and
    you always treated them like a gentleman.  That means that you not only
    don't touch them, or even worse hit them, but to insure that your
    language is appropriate, which means you don't curse, tell off-color
    jokes, etc in the presence of a lady.
    
    These and others are universal truths, or absolutes, which don't come
    from law, but from societal mores.  Since we have tried to eliminate
    these we now need to look to other creations to replace what should be
    a basic step in development.
    

    
    I think there are unqualified presumptions being made in this string
    about what people should know and have learned about other cultures or
    people's diversities.  
    
    I grew up in a small town in Maine.  I never saw a black person until I 
    moved here in Massachusetts at age 23ish. This is just one example of
    my lack of exposure to diversity.
    
    I think the key to valuing diversity is not to *program* people to
    *think* a certain way about a specific culture, etc. before he or she
    meets him or her, but to *open* up people to *thinking* that
    differences between people are okay!  
    
    Without education of diversity many people have *odd* ways of *viewing*
    differences.  
    
    Nancy
     

    It depends whether the WASP male had the good sense not to show the
    soles of his feet to the customer.
    
    Yes, we did make a mistake if we overanalysed the scenario in favour of
    cultural sensitivity and made an assumption that the customer would not
    accept a Jew or a female.  If we really checked with the customer and
    found that such people would be unacceptable then that's a different
    story, we would have to consider whether we really wanted to do
    business with this customer, given the added expense of finding someone
    acceptable to them each time we had to interact.
    
    The worse mistake you can make is to assume that your trading partner
    is equally unsophisticated in accepting with your own culture.  I have a
    similar DEC tale told by a lady who is over 6' tall and was the best
    candidate for a trip to a customer in Japan.   In the end, she was the
    best candidate and went to do the job.  The whole thing went smoothly,
    until the last day.  At the end of the day, the locals went into a long
    heated discussion, then turned to her and said.  "We don't know what to
    do to thank you - if you were a man we'd take you to one of our bars
    and drink whiskey all night."   "Fine by me" she replied.
    
    Colin
    
    

| <<< Note 712.86 by ACISS1::ROCUSH >>>


| This may seem like splitting hairs, but to me there is a significant
| difference between insuring socially acceptable behavior in a workplace
| and wasting time, money and resources on a new age philosophy.

	You yourself changed your wording a few notes back from will not work
to may not work. So you do see that it can help. And this is from someone who
thinks it is a total waste of time. There are a lot of people along the scale,
and I think you will find that there are more in the middle, than at your or my
end. If you can think it may help, imagine what someone from the middle could
do with it....

| By the time a child gets to grammar school they should have a very good
| understanding of what is socially acceptable and what is not.  

	You can't be serious, can you? Ever hear a kid in grammer school say
some adult is fat, right in front of them? You could add dozens of things in
place of being fat. 

| As a child grows they should become more aware of the differences between
| people and respond to each person individually.  Diversity trainig, as I have 
| experienced tries to group people into a stereotype and encourage you to make 
| a group decision about an individual before you even know them.  

	Is this what you got out of the diversity stuff? No wonder you don't
like them. 

| Using a generally known derogatory term to a woman, minority, etc should be 
| generally known. If you haven't learned that by the time you are a full time 
| employee then I doubt a seminar will help.

	This is where you are wrong. I know I have learned an awful lot from
the seminars I attended. Most of which I didn't even realize were derogatory
terms. 

| These and others are universal truths, or absolutes, which don't come
| from law, but from societal mores.  

	You take the cake. You say they are universal. IF they were, would they
be happening? Answer is....no. And it goes much further than sexual
harrassment.


Glen

	Colin... great note! And with a whiskey ending even!

re .89

Maybe we didn't bother to check with the customer because we knew about
the immigration regulations in the customer's country.

Maybe those immigration regulations alone should have been enough for us
to refuse to do business with the customer.

Maybe that, too, would have been a failure to value the customer's country's
diversity.

/john

    Well, don't indulge in idle speculation, John.  You name the countries
    that (under _any_ circumstances) allow women to enter.  I'll check it
    out.
    
    Colin
    

If the country was Saudi Arabia, neither a Jewish male nor a female would
be allowed to enter the country to conduct a business deal.

Should Digital refuse to do business there, or would that be a failure to
value that country's diversity?

/john

    Glen:
    
    From your examples of my weaknesses, it is apparent you don't listen to
    me very well.  A few examples...
    
    I believe people from all walks of life have the ability to excell and
    become whomever they want to become.  I see some as having greater
    barriers but nonetheless people are born with the ability to succeed if
    they have the drive.
    
    I believe there are good cultures and there are bad cultures.  I say
    this based not on the people for who they are, but based on their
    customs and their politics.  THIS is what makes them good or
    reprehensible.  NOT ALL CULTURES ARE EQUAL GLEN...ARE YOU LISTENING?
    
    Our system sets up children to fail.  Bilingual education disregards
    the welfare of children and stunts there ability to succeed in this
    country.  English should be the national language because it is the
    predominant.
    
    Anybody coming to our country should acclamate themselves to a western
    Eurocentric philosophy, not my job to acclamate myself to theirs. 
    Reason, western European culture is the predominant culture in America.
    
    ------------------------------
    
    Glen, if you notice, every example above has nothing to do with
    prejudice.  It has everything to do with economics, political policy,
    and acclamation to the predomninant US culture.  
    
    As far as women go, you'll have to furnish me with examples there.  I
    don't recall making any degrading remarks against women.  
    
    -Jack  

    .90
    
    Apparently you misread my note.  I did not say that a diversity seminar
    may be beneficial.  I believe the reference you make is where I said
    someone's behavior may be harmful to Digital.
    
    Also the issue is not whether or not diversity knowledge is or isn't a
    good idea.  It's whether or not Digital should be spending precious
    resources on this.  Education is probably more important for the
    overall success of Digital and we do not have college courses offered
    at all facilities.  People understand that their career success depends
    on being an increasingly valuable employee.  They, therefore, enroll in
    local colleges and do what they need to do.  If an employee's behavior
    is detrimental to Digital then, the same as with education, they should
    be advised to obtain the training they need.
    
    I have njo issue with anyone learning whatever they want, I do not
    believe that this is an important enough business issue, that if not
    addressed will lead to the downfall of Digital.
    
    Your last paragraph is very curious.  You claim that if something is an
    absolute then it wouldn't happen.  I don't think you find many people,
    from the earliest age, know that murder is wrong and yet it still
    happens.  It doesn't change the fact that it is an absolute wrong.  My
    contention is that situational ethics and morals have been creeping in
    to replace universal truths.
    

    .94
    
    Myth.  Suadi Arabia has no such official unconditional restrictions on
    entry based on sex or religious persuasion.  Israeli citizens may be an
    exception, but the stated visa requirements do not say so explicitly.
    (Source: US Dept of State, Bureau of Consular Affairs.)
    
    It does have some cultural conditions which make it extremely difficult
    to obtain a visa and conduct business as a woman, but it is not
    impossible.
    
    As to should we refuse to do business there, that's not my decision.
    I make products that meet Arab market requirements, Digital sells them.
    I believe that we voluntarily boycotted the South African market due to
    some of it's "cultural institutions", so the situation is not without
    precedent.
    
    Colin

    well, now if we're talking about valuing everyone's diversity, this
    story about business in the mid-east is interesting.  If they took
    a woman and a jewish man off the account/project, aren't we devaluing
    their diversity whilst celebrating that of the customers?  or is the
    message in terms of global business that the customer's diversity it
    paramount, our own need not be recognized/acknowledged, dealt with?
    frankly, i see no value in that.  

           <<< Note 712.98 by GMASEC::KELLY "Not The Wrong Person" >>>

>If they took
>    a woman and a jewish man off the account/project, aren't we devaluing
>    their diversity whilst celebrating that of the customers?

	Not sure, but from the EEO course I took some years ago, it
	was a violation of Federal Law.

Jim

    .98 
    
    Precisely.
    
    This is where the can is open and the worms are halfway up your arm
    before you know it.  This is an American corporation, presumably
    reflecting the norms and values of its country of origin.
    
    In rare cases, it could come down to a the question of whether
    Digital should compromise those values just to make money, or
    promote it's cultural values at the risk of losing money.  Not an
    easy one to answer.
    
    Colin
    

    <- Di already smacked me for the "it's", while simultaneously
    duffing Dick over the hobo definition. Now there is a human who
    could do business anywhere in the world.
    
    

    she'd never be a bumb!

    
    Bumblebee Tuna!

| <<< Note 712.95 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| From your examples of my weaknesses, it is apparent you don't listen to
| me very well.  A few examples...

	Your weaknesses? Glad you're the one saying it.

| I believe people from all walks of life have the ability to excell and become 
| whomever they want to become. I see some as having greater barriers but 
| nonetheless people are born with the ability to succeed if they have the 
| drive.

	I agree with the above. Where we seem to differ is when it comes to
breaking the barriers that exist.

| I believe there are good cultures and there are bad cultures. I say this 
| based not on the people for who they are, but based on their customs and 
| their politics.  

	A person may or may not view life the same as their country. I'm sure
the guy who walked up to the tank in China wasn't doing so because he agreed
with their policies. This is a great example of you putting people into neat
little packages. Not all are the same. 

| Glen, if you notice, every example above has nothing to do with prejudice.  

	Jack, you brought up another interesting word. Did I say you were
prejudice?

| As far as women go, you'll have to furnish me with examples there. I don't 
| recall making any degrading remarks against women.

	Gee, you must not consider those who you put into the package called
feminist as women, or the Mrs. Dougherty's of the world, etc.



Glen

 
    >>  This is an American corporation, presumably
    >>  reflecting the norms and values of its country of origin.
    
    >>> In rare cases, it could come down to a the question of whether
    >>> Digital should compromise those values just to make money, or
    >>> promote it's cultural values at the risk of losing money.  Not an
    >>> easy one to answer.
    
    
    .100   Right on the money (no pun intended), Colin.
    	   
    	   When I was working with HP in the 80's it resolved this dilemma
    	   rather creatively, I thought.  HP did conduct business in then
    	   apatheid S. Africa, BUT within HP premises, it maintained its
    	   American equal opportunity business practices. I confirmed this
    	   myself having met both a white and a black S. African while
    	   attending technical classes.
    
    	   Now, to some folks this might be hypocrisy, but I looked at it
           as goodness. Whatever little bit that the company could do to
    	   improve the situation, it did. My guess is, today those
    	   business practices may have formed the early seeds of "teaching"
    	   the S. Africans that they could, at the very least, work
           together. That practice also reskilled some, may not be many,
    	   black S. Africans when otherwise they would not have been.
    
    	   
    	But back to .0...
    
    	Having followed this string, would what I said above be
        accomplished through a corporate-wide Val. Diversity program?
    	Hardly. HP did NOT have such a thing back then, but it did
    	OK. 
    
    	This aspect of corporate PCness has always been an enigma
    	to me since I joined Digital. Is the true goal to enrich the 
    	employees or to avoid lawsuits? My impression of Digital (no
    	facts here, just an impression) is that it so suit-adverse
    	that it goes to incredibly, sometime comical steps, to build
    	that anti-suit deflector. Now was this totally necessary because
    	it had been sued too many times, or was it to continue the 
        employment of several hundred corporate attorneys we HAD? 
    
     	Another example, remember in the rock-bottom financial throes a
    	few years back, Digital actually had (or may still has) a PROGRAM 
    	office for AID/HIV awareness?? Was there a VP for that? Did Digital 
        have the money and really the justification for that expenditure?
    
    
    	I support Mr Rocush sensibilities over this. To what
        extent do we expect a corporation to teach "morality" to its
    	employees. This teaching about tolerance and ethnic
    	appreciation ought to come from the home and school. It must be
    	done as a societal obligation, but not necessarily at work, AS
    	A CORP. PROGRAM. 
    
        Instead of having these classes how about Digital celebrate 
    	Chinese New Year, Islam's Aidil Fithri, Buddhism's Thaipusam, 
    	Hindu's Deepavali, Hanukkah, etc every year not by simply giving 
    	the employee a "personal vacation day", but to celebrate it like 
    	it does Martin Luther King's birthday and Christmas?
    
    	Now if we were to teach courses on how to conduct international
    	business with respect to understanding cultural diversity, customs
        and communications protocol, I am fully behind it. If there is a
        course to teach common sense, I'm fully behind it! However having
    	attended one of these VD classes before, that wasn't the intent.
    
    	                                                   

| <<< Note 712.105 by MARIN::WANNOOR >>>


| Another example, remember in the rock-bottom financial throes a few years 
| back, Digital actually had (or may still has) a PROGRAM office for AID/HIV 
| awareness?? Was there a VP for that? Did Digital have the money and really 
| the justification for that expenditure?

	There was never a VP for that. There was ONE person who came in a few
times a week to do the job. It is still in existance today. In the past they
had money to make t-shirts for walkers, and to hold a thank-you breakfast. They
do not have money for this anymore. If we do anything, it is because we got
volunteers to donate something. So part of your worries might be attributed to
you not really know what is going on.

	Perfect timing for this, as I will be dropping something in real
shortly about the Walk!



Glen

 Z   Gee, you must not consider those who you put into the package called
 Z   feminist as women, or the Mrs. Dougherty's of the world, etc.
    
    Glen, there are plenty of women out there who abhor feminists.  There
    are men and women out there fighting for equal rights who abhor
    feminists.  So what?  Resistance toward feminists are strictly about
    ideology mon...not about gender.  I abhor male feminists as much as
    female feminists...so what?
    
    Mrs. Dougherty Glen, is representative of a person who votes for the
    Kennedys on the basis that they are handsome, they are Irish....and
    they are a Kennedy.  I've never heard a man say to me, "Ohhh, that John
    Kennedy was so handsome...or Ohhhh....that Ted Kennedy is so
    wonderful."  THIS, Glen is why Mrs. Dougherty gets a bad rap.  Mr.
    Dougherty I don't know about.  Maybe he's a brainless idiot too.  But
    again you are taking something here and making it a gender issue.  
    
    Please, you will have to do alot better than this.  Once again an
    example of you looking for a boogeyman behind every rock.  
    
    See, I could have said boogeywoman but I didn't!!!!
    
    -Jack

    Re .100
    
    "Business Values" is an oxymoron.

    Mebbe that's why I didn't write it.
    

 .109 ;>

| <<< Note 712.107 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Glen, there are plenty of women out there who abhor feminists.  

	Jack, there are so many different degrees of a feminist in reality, but
in your own world, there is one. And that is the box you put them in. And as
far as there being many people who abhor feminists go.... what are some of the
reasons?

| Mrs. Dougherty Glen, is representative of a person who votes for the Kennedys 
| on the basis that they are handsome, they are Irish....and they are a Kennedy.
| I've never heard a man say to me, "Ohhh, that John Kennedy was so handsome...

	I think JJ is quite cute, tyvm. What you have done, without realizing
it, is throw the WOMAN into a catagory of voting just for looks alone. Yet you
yourself have never said you talked to any women personally who felt this way.
You took one snippet, and put a bunch of women into that catagory. How nice of
you.

| THIS, Glen is why Mrs. Dougherty gets a bad rap.  

	No, your not knowing what might or might not be really happening is
what gives her a bum rap. 

| Please, you will have to do alot better than this.

	Why? You keep proving me right at every turn.




Glen

    
    Glen,
    re: AIDS/HIV office
    Quite true that I may not had know what went on because I was too busy
    helping save the company :-)
    
    I am rather curious how does one measure ROI for programs like it and 
    V. D. Interestingly enough you did not respond to my suggestion of
    actually practising religious and cultural diversity by celebrating
    and understanding what they are and what they stand for.
    
    Back here, many, many replies ago, Mr Martin actually suggested that 
    perhaps V. D. has other motive and that is to make people accept
    alternate lifestyles. To some extend I agree with what he said (but only
    to some extent, and only on this topic at hand. Usually I disagree
    with his ultra conservative views). 
    
    Secondly the session I attended was to mollify the white/black racial 
    issues; being neither a white or black and having grown up in a 
    country of multi-ethnic population with complete religious freedom, I
    found the session rather pathetic and sugar-coated. On one hand we're
    saying that we all value diversity and yet here, if you're not black
    or white, you're out of the mainstream. Digital is a prime example of
    that.
    
    Since you're a strong advocate, perhaps you could let us know how much
    $$$ Digital is in fact investing in designing and executing the
    program, and what are goals and how are they going to be measured?
    
    

| <<< Note 712.112 by MARIN::WANNOOR >>>



| I am rather curious how does one measure ROI 

	I'm rather curious as to what ROI stands for. :-)

| Interestingly enough you did not respond to my suggestion of actually 
| practicing religious and cultural diversity by celebrating and understanding 
| what they are and what they stand for.

	I skipped a lot of your note. :-)  Like .0 said, religion would be
involved. Not just Christianity.....

| Back here, many, many replies ago, Mr Martin actually suggested that perhaps 
| V. D. has other motive and that is to make people accept alternate lifestyles.
| To some extend I agree with what he said 

	No one can make another think anything is good, or bad. People can
explain what they can, but the other person will either be open to it, somewhat
open, or closed. Clearing up misconceptions is what people really want to do.
If diversity programs were just for alternative lifestyles, you might actually
have a point. But it is not just that. If the programs that are being developed
are based on forcing someone to think they have to like the alternative
lifestyle, then you would have a point. But where I am directly involved with
developing they b/g/l/t program, I can assure you this is not the case.

| Secondly the session I attended was to mollify the white/black racial issues; 
| being neither a white or black and having grown up in a country of 
| multi-ethnic population with complete religious freedom, I found the session 
| rather pathetic and sugar-coated. 

	I attended something similar to that, but it was for people of colour.
So it was deeper than black/white issues. 

| Since you're a strong advocate, perhaps you could let us know how much $$$ 
| Digital is in fact investing in designing and executing the program, and what 
| are goals and how are they going to be measured?

	I can't tell you how much they are going to spend, as I don't know. I
do know that the part I am involved in is going to be developed on our time. In 
fact, tonight is our first meeting. 


Glen

    
    re: 712.9
    
    Glen, thank you for the compliment.  :^)

    
    R.O.I.= return on investment

    
    	Glen, how does your role in trying to educate the masses
    	re: diversity co-exist with your web page, which fosters
    	prejudice ?
    
    

    I am a read-only member of this conference (and rarely at that!) but
    this particular subject really got my attention.  
    
    The thing that bothers me about all of the diversity programs I've
    seen/heard about is that they tend to lump all "white" people into
    a bucket and only value minorities.  I resent this very much because
    I don't think it is fair to lump someone into a group just because
    of their skin color.  I may be "fair skinned", but I am a mix of
    different ancestries/cultures which deserve to be valued just as much
    as any other culture.  For instance my husband is originally from
    Mexico, but is light-skinned - should he be lumped into the white
    category or the Hispanic category?  My son is a mix of Spanish,French,
    German,Bohemian,English, and Scotch-Irish (AKA HEINZ 57!)  I actually 
    had a person from DEC personnel tell me that I should attend the Hispanic 
    Awareness group so that I could understand the special needs of my 
    "Hispanic" son.  I replied that my son was a mix of cultures and furthermore
    he is an "AMERICAN".
    
    Recently I picked up my son from school and he asked "Mom, what color
    am I? People say I'm white but I don't think so." He then picked up
    a white piece of paper and pointed out that the paper was truly
    "white".  He then asked again what color I thought he was.  I replied
    that he was a sort of peachy-beige color and that I agreed that we
    were not "white" at all!    Evidently some kids had pointed out that
    he was white even though he had a Mexican last name.
    
    I just think it would be so much more productive if we all took the
    time to value the things that bind us as HUMAN BEINGS as opposed to
    picking things such as our skin color or country of origin to focus on.
    Putting so much attention on differences is divisive in my opinion.
    
    Elizabeth  

    
    	Very good point[s].
    
    	I think we place too much emphasis on "valuing differences"
    	[which basically equates to "pointing out differences"] when
    	we should be emphasizing "ignoring differences".
    
    	I mean, what kind of a gain is there for a site to set up a
    	"Mexican day" [no offense, just an example] just so we can
    	all visit the cafeteria and look at imported rugs and eat
    	tacos?
    

    Z    I just think it would be so much more productive if we all took the
    Z    time to value the things that bind us as HUMAN BEINGS as opposed to
    Z    picking things such as our skin color or country of origin to focus
    Z    on.
    
    I've been harping on this very point for some time now!  I began a
    topic last year on Bilingual Education.  I started the topic by using
    the illustration of the Tower of Babel.  Once God confused the
    languages the people dispersed and scattered throughout the world.
    Moral:  The people focused on the differences and it destroyed the
    culture.  I was of course poked fun at for this but I believe the point
    was well made.
    
    Focusing on differences does nothing to bring forth a colorblind
    society.  What it does do is allow us to categorize people...something
    I've ironically been accused of here.  Perhaps I do this from time to
    time...but the diversity crowd is King in this practice!
    
    -Jack

    
    	Jack, remember that you also expect employees in a Chinese rest-
    	aurant to cater to you by speaking English even when it's clear
    	that they're not even talking to you.
    

    Jack, is that true? Not very sproting of you.

        Z    Jack, remember that you also expect employees in a Chinese rest-
        Z    aurant to cater to you by speaking English even when it's clear
        Z    that they're not even talking to you.
    
    I expect any proprietor who owns a business with the gumption to yell
    to at least have the nads to sya what he has to say for all to
    understand...not just hear!

    I think this is silly.
    
    How about you go to China. Would you still expect this?

  .123  aagagag.  good question.

	or Jack opens a restaurant in China.  he gets furious with
	his English-speaking employees, but just before he starts
	yelling, he quick-like-a-bunny brushes up on his Chinese 
	invectives and then lets them rip. ;>

    Suffice to say it may be silly...but apparently our two friends, Glen
    and Shawn are too busy with their heads up their bumbs to listen to
    what I'm saying.  
    
    They keep insisting this is a diversity issue.  I don't care if the guy
    speaks in Pig Latin.  It's all about business protocol.  Save your
    foul inuendos for the kitchen area, not where the patrons are hanging
    out.
    
    -Jack

>        <<< Note 712.125 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

    
>  I don't care if the guy speaks in Pig Latin.

	Oh, but apparently you do, if you're within earshot.

    Not the point Diane.  Him being Chinese had nothing to do with it!

| <<< Note 712.115 by ACISS1::BATTIS "Chicago Bulls-1996 world champs" >>>


| R.O.I.= return on investment

	Thank-you.

>        <<< Note 712.127 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

>    Not the point Diane.  Him being Chinese had nothing to do with it!

	{boggle}  If he hadn't been Chinese, you wouldn't have had
	a problem with him speaking in Chinese.

| <<< Note 712.116 by CNTROL::JENNISON "Crown Him with many crowns" >>>


| Glen, how does your role in trying to educate the masses re: diversity 
| co-exist with your web page, which fosters prejudice ?

	Where does it do that, Karen?

    Diane, it wouldn't have mattered if the guy yelled in Greek, Spanish,
    English, Hebrew...whatever.

| <<< Note 712.125 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Suffice to say it may be silly...but apparently our two friends, Glen and 
| Shawn are too busy with their heads up their bumbs to listen to what I'm 
| saying.

	My head is not up some bumb's butt.

| They keep insisting this is a diversity issue. I don't care if the guy speaks 
| in Pig Latin. It's all about business protocol.  

	Yeah, your business protocal, which has to be absolute, cuz you don't
allow anyone any difference. You must be God in the business protocal world!



Glen

| <<< Note 712.127 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Not the point Diane.  Him being Chinese had nothing to do with it!

	Him speaking Chinese, is. You know, his own language???? 

  Z  Yeah, your business protocal, which has to be absolute, cuz you don't
  Z  allow anyone any difference. You must be God in the business protocal
  Z  world!
    
    No, everybody's business protocol.  Such displays of affection are a no
    no in the restaurant industry.  It drives paying customers away.

  ZZ   Him speaking Chinese, is. You know, his own language???? 
    
    Change the word to yelling...and yelling in his language due to his
    lack of self control in chiding the poor worker in front of the masses.
    
    

| <<< Note 712.134 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| No, everybody's business protocol.  Such displays of affection are a no
| no in the restaurant industry.  It drives paying customers away.

	Yelling in Chinese is bad in everyone's business protocal? I mean, you
said if they were going to yell, yell in english!

>        <<< Note 712.131 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

>    Diane, it wouldn't have mattered if the guy yelled in Greek, Spanish,
>    English, Hebrew...whatever.

	Cow doots.  You had two problems with it.  One - he yelled
	at his employees in front of the customers.  Two - he didn't
	yell in a language you could understand.  Had he yelled in
	English, you would have had just one problem with it.
	So it did matter.

| <<< Note 712.135 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| ZZ   Him speaking Chinese, is. You know, his own language????

| Change the word to yelling...and yelling in his language due to his
| lack of self control in chiding the poor worker in front of the masses.

	No, reread .136

 Z   Yelling in Chinese is bad in everyone's business protocal? I mean, you
 Z   said if they were going to yell, yell in english!
    
    No, actually I said IF HE IS GOING TO YELL, AT LEAST have the nads to
    chew him out for all to hear AND UNDERSTAND.
    
    I believe it is rude to speak in code in front of mixed company. 
    Always have...always will.  

  speak in code??   aagagag.  too much, Jack baby, you are too much. ;>

Acks-Jay oo-tay uch-may!

>>    I believe it is rude to speak in code in front of mixed company. 
>>    Always have...always will.  
    
    So...
    
    If say, half of those present speak/understand only Chinese and the
    other half (of which you are a member) speak/understand only English,
    
    and the restaurant is located in the U.S...
    
    Does this mean he should chew the guy out in English?
    
    or...
    
    Should he first chew him out in English and then chew him out in
    Chinese, so everyone knows what's going on?
    
    jus wonder'n
    

                   ____ 
                 @/ oo \@
                 (   ) _\   STOP....STOP I'M TELLING YA!!!    I CAN'T
                  \__^_ /   STAAAAAND IT ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!  

    No, he should chew him out in American.  Why the hell should an
    American have to speak English in his own country?

    
    	At least he wasn't speaking in Morse Code.  THAT would be an-
    	noying!!
    
    	Jack, I guess the problem you have with this is that you are
    	a nosey SOB and were incredibly curious to know what this guy
    	was actually saying to his employee.
    
    	Maybe he was speaking in Chinese because:
    
    	1) He doesn't know how to speak English [but probably false]
    	2) Even though he was yelling, he was using some amount of
    	   discretion throughout the incident.  Sure, you know that
    	   he was most likely upset about something, but every other
    	   word out of his mouth didn't start with an "F" [or not as
    	   far as you could tell, anyways].
    
    	Do you see what I'm getting at?
    

    .139
    
    > No, actually I said IF HE IS GOING TO YELL, AT LEAST have the nads to
    > chew him out for all to hear AND UNDERSTAND.
    
    has it ever occurred to you that the server being chewed out may have
    had essentially no conversational command of English?  (Many servers in
    Chinese restos are there because they're just off the boat.)  Chewing
    him out in English might have accomplished very little that was
    productive.

 z   Should he first chew him out in English and then chew him out in
 z       Chinese, so everyone knows what's going on?
    
    What he should do is take him in the back office and chew him out in
    any language he wants.  I don't really want to know.
    
    Fact is this manager made it everybody's issue, I was sitting there
    minding my business eating my chicken fingers!

    
    	Jack, if you don't punish the dog immediately after he craps
    	on the rug then the punishment is useless.
    
    	What I'm saying is that the boss had to reprimand this kid
    	immediately after he crapped in the entrees or the reprimand
    	would have been useless.
    

    >>    minding my business eating my chicken fingers!
    
    Ah yes.  The pinnacle of chinese "cuisine".  I bet they had both kinds
    of Chinese food, Cantonese and Polynesian.

    <nails buffalo wings to desk>

>    What he should do is take him in the back office and chew him out in
>    any language he wants.

Is it just me, or do others think that this might be the first time that
we've seen this conclusion reached?

         Z   Jack, I guess the problem you have with this is that you are
         Z   a nosey SOB and were incredibly curious to know what this guy
         Z   was actually saying to his employee.
    
    Wrong...I wanted to eat in peace like 99% of the other patrons.  
    
    My guess is if the manager is operating a business, he would most
    likely have to know the English language in order to communicate with
    the customers.
    
    

  1% of the customers wanted trouble? 

    Yes.  I'm sure there was a percentage of rabblerousers present and I'm
    just trying to acknowledge their difference and celebrate it!

>> z   Should he first chew him out in English and then chew him out in
>> z       Chinese, so everyone knows what's going on?
>>     
>>     What he should do is take him in the back office and chew him out in
>>     any language he wants.  I don't really want to know.
>>     
>>     Fact is this manager made it everybody's issue, I was sitting there
>>     minding my business eating my chicken fingers!

    But...
    
    what you first said, was...
    
>>    No, actually I said IF HE IS GOING TO YELL, AT LEAST have the nads to
>>    chew him out for all to hear AND UNDERSTAND.
>>    
>>    I believe it is rude to speak in code in front of mixed company. 
>>    Always have...always will.  
    
    You appear to be talking about two issues:
    
    1) Yelling in a language which you could understand
    
    2) Yelling at an employee in front of a customer
    
    
    In relation to point 1) What I was asking, was... (see above)
    
    In relation to point 2) I agree with your point.  Yelling at an
    employee in front of customers does not seem to be a sound business
    practice, and is at the very least uncouth.

    
    	>a = Jack [1]
    	>b = 99% of other customers [99?  198?]
    	>c = Trouble-makers [1?  2?]
    
    	These must add up to 100%.
    
    	And (b+c)/100 should = int((b+c)/100) for math simplicity.
    
    	So we have
    
    		1 + 99 + 1 = 100%	or
    		1 + 198 + 2 = 100%
    
    		100 good + 1 bad: .990% trouble-makers, 99.010% good
    		199 good + 2 bad: .995% trouble-makers, 99.005% good
    

    THANK YOU...somebody who finally acknowledges it is rude to yell in
    front of customers.  People in this conference are sometimes too
    prideful to admit things!  
    
    Re: Point 1, let's assume the guy has absolutely no idea on business
    protocol.  His tunnelvision allows him to yell on impulse...regardless
    of where he is.  If HE MUST yell in front of the patrons, show your
    true colors for all to see.  That's all I'm saying.
    
    -Jack

Chinese chickens have fingers?  Wow, that's... diverse.

    .157
    
    What, no answer to .146?

    
    	Jack, if "yelling on impulse" is uncontrollable, then so is
    	his choice of language when doing so.
    

I guess Jack stays out of those churches where they "speak in tongues."

    Sorry Dick, the answer to your comment was couched in .152....
    
 Z   My guess is if the manager is operating a business, he would most
 Z   likely have to know the English language in order to communicate
 Z   with the customers.
    
    

Jack, he pointed out that the _waiter_ might know little English.

 ZZ   Jack, he pointed out that the _waiter_ might know little English.
    
    Ouu...well, I have to concede that point.
    
    In that case, yell at the kid in the back room!

    
    	re .130
    
    	This is a trick question, right ?
    
    

>>    Re: Point 1, let's assume the guy has absolutely no idea on business
>>    protocol.  His tunnelvision allows him to yell on impulse...regardless
>>    of where he is.  If HE MUST yell in front of the patrons, show your
>>    true colors for all to see.  That's all I'm saying.
    
    I worked at a Chinese restaurant when I was about 17 or so. Anyway,
    every so often the cooks would get po'd at something I did wrong. They
    would spew a plethora of Chinese at me, which I assumed was similar to
    cussing me out real good in English (pardon me, American). Anyway, I
    had no idea what they really said, but I had no problem understanding
    that they were po'd.
    
    Oh...
    
    Another thought just occurred to me.
    
    I worked with several other people at that restaurant, none of them
    were Chinese.  After hours, we would all sit around and munch out on
    whatever the cooks decided to cook up for us that day. Anyway, the
    cooks and owners (who were chinese) would sit at one table and chatter
    away in Chinese, and we would sit at another table. One day we (who
    were all teenagers) decided to talk in pig latin. We figured if they
    were going to talk where we couldn't understand them then we would talk
    where they couldn't understand us. As far as prompting them to speak
    En...er... American, it didn't, but they sure gave us some glares for
    talking pig latin.
    
    So, in a sense, Jack, I understand what you're trying to say. It's
    really frustrating when two people carry on a conversation in a
    language that you don't understand. It probably feels akin to
    whispering (at least it did to us kids at that restaurant). And, from
    the PC point of view, those people had every right to talk in whatever
    language they chose. But the fact still remains that it didn't seem
    very polite.
    
    I guess that's my whole problem with this valuing diversity thing. As
    important as it may be to learn about other's cultures and to learn to
    respect their culture, it shouldn't mean that we (generally speaking)
    should have to conform to these cultures. Within the U.S., that is.
    Just as we are expected to understand and follow the rules of foreign
    cultures when we do business there, so should other cultures learn
    about our culture and follow our rules when they do business here.
    
    In the Valuing Diversity workshop I attended, one of the things that
    was stressed was the fact that everyone who becomes a U.S. citizen is
    required to learn Eng... er... American. Well, actually, that wasn't so
    much what was stressed. What was stressed however, was that this should
    not be a requirement. That it is unfair to expect people, who are trying
    to become U.S. citizens, to learn English. And that by doing that we
    are suppressing their culture.
    
    What do I say to this?
    
    Let them speak their own language at home, but learn Engl... er...
    American!

>							Anyway, the
>    cooks and owners (who were chinese) would sit at one table and chatter
>    away in Chinese, and we would sit at another table.

As long as the same food was on both tables, you were probably OK.

>    In the Valuing Diversity workshop I attended, one of the things that
>    was stressed was the fact that everyone who becomes a U.S. citizen is
>    required to learn Eng... er... American.

Not true.  I've submitted paperwork to naturalize my daughters, and I believe
they'll be citizens before they can speak English.

| <<< Note 712.139 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| No, actually I said IF HE IS GOING TO YELL, AT LEAST have the nads to
| chew him out for all to hear AND UNDERSTAND.

	Face it... you're more upset that he yelled in chinese, than the fact
that he yelled. You prove this everytime by saying if he would yell, he should
yell in english.

	And for you believing it is rude to speak in another language in front
of mixed company... learn another language if you want to know what they are
saying so bad.



Glen

| <<< Note 712.144 by SMURF::WALTERS >>>

| No, he should chew him out in American.  Why the hell should an
| American have to speak English in his own country?

	Hee hee hee..... you are too funny, Colin!

| <<< Note 712.147 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>


| Fact is this manager made it everybody's issue, I was sitting there
| minding my business eating my chicken fingers!

	I think your fingers are pretty brave to type some of the crap you do.

| <<< Note 712.157 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| THANK YOU...somebody who finally acknowledges it is rude to yell in
| front of customers.  People in this conference are sometimes too
| prideful to admit things!

	Jack, people haven't said hoot about yelling. We haven't had time
because you're more upset at the person's yelling language than the actual
yelling!

| If HE MUST yell in front of the patrons, show your true colors for all to 
| see.  That's all I'm saying.

	And that is all he did. His true colors are Chinese, no? Case closed.
Thanks for playing.

| <<< Note 712.161 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >>>

| I guess Jack stays out of those churches where they "speak in tongues."

	Gerald!!!!!  I can't believe you said that! :-)

| <<< Note 712.165 by CNTROL::JENNISON "Crown Him with many crowns" >>>


| This is a trick question, right ?

	No Karen, it is not.

>>    In the Valuing Diversity workshop I attended, one of the things that
>>    was stressed was the fact that everyone who becomes a U.S. citizen is
>>    required to learn Eng... er... American.

> Not true.  I've submitted paperwork to naturalize my daughters, and I believe
> they'll be citizens before they can speak English.

    I also became a naturalized citizen before I could speak English (I was
    3).
    
    However, I thought adults who are trying to become citizens are
    required to take English classes and to learn to speak a specified
    amount of English...
    
    Anyway, this is what they told us in the V.D. (no, not venereal
    disease) workshop.

Z     Face it... you're more upset that he yelled in chinese, than the fact
Z    that he yelled. You prove this everytime by saying if he would yell, he
Z    should yell in english.
    
    Glen, I haven't decided whether you are stoned, brainwashed into
    believing there is a bigot ghost behind every rock, or you simply
    aren't listening.  I'm inclined to believe it is the second.  
    
    Which is exactly why your diversity training is falling on deaf ears.
    Why in God's name would I want to be brainwashed to be like you are...
    I would find it an insult to even be spoken to by a social worker hack
    in this manner.  Count me out!
    
    -Jack

    I have a question...
    
    If I choose not to date an oriental because I don't particularly find
    them attractive, does this make me a racist biggot?
    
    jus wonder'n

        Damn you, you racist, homophobe, bigot, republican.  How dare you
    even recognize the diferences.
    -ss
    

 >>   Damn you, you racist, homophobe, bigot, republican.  How dare you
 >>   even recognize the diferences.
    
    ok, ok, you got me figured out.
    
    Just one question tho...
    
    
    
    How'd you figure out I was a republican?
    

    
    > If I choose not to date an oriental because I don't particularly find
        them attractive, does this make me a racist biggot?
    
    now I have a question...
    
    why would you want to date someone your NOT attracted to?

    re.179
    
    Why? Because everyone knows that Repubs are racist, homophobe, and
    bigots.  The New York Times even says so. So there.{sticking my tongue
    out}
    -ss

        <<< Note 712.131 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

>    Diane, it wouldn't have mattered if the guy yelled in Greek, Spanish,
>    English, Hebrew...whatever.

	He's right Di, it wouldn't have mattered to Jack. All he wants
	is to have EVERYONE use English so that he can understand and
	enjoy when someone is getting verbally clobbered.

	;-)

Jim

	Regarding the ROI of VoD......

	One of the original purposes of VoD education was to teach folks
	that when dealing with others it is not a good idea to assume
	that you have a common cultural foundation. 

	To have an awareness that a person with a different social, cultural,
	or ethnic background will, of course, have a different point of
	reference on many issues is not a bad thing.

	To have the ability to step back and appreciate that even with a
	common language you may not be communicating effectively is a 
	good thing.

	Those who can not accept this approach can suffer the effects of
	inefficiency or misunderstanding. Not a good thing in today's
	business environment.

	My job requires international contacts, primarily with Singapore
	which has an extremely diverse culture. A majority Chinese population
	with a significant Muslim minority. Both are different than our
	American culture asnd both are different from each other. Understanding
	those differences is vital in working with the people that I depend
	on to get MY job done.

	Although to a lesser degree, in most cases, the same applies to working
	with people in the US who have a different background than my own.
	The more you can appreciate, understand and show respect for someone
	else's culture or background, the better able you will be to deal with 
	them and the more effective you will be in meeting your goals.

Jim

    
    But, But Jim,
    
    We are supposed to be all the same.  Understanding another's background
    and working with them from that point could undo all kinds of problems
    and make for a happier world.  That is intolerable.
    
    ;-)
    
    meg

       <<< Note 712.184 by CSC32::M_EVANS "It's the foodchain, stupid" >>>

>    But, But Jim,
 
	Yeah I know, but the only time that I've actually seen this in
	practice is on St. Patrick's Day, when everyone claims to be
	Irish.

	;-)

Jim

    Well, we can let them be Irish-american's one day of the year.  The
    rest of it belongs to those of us who can claim at least a smidge in
    our American Breed (coined by a german immigrant I know) heritage.
    
    ;-)
    
    meg

| <<< Note 712.176 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Glen, I haven't decided whether you are stoned, brainwashed into
| believing there is a bigot ghost behind every rock, or you simply
| aren't listening.  I'm inclined to believe it is the second.

	Jack, people have said the same thing. When you state that if someone
is going to yell, have the nads to do it in english, then that shows the
language is the worse of the 2 things being one. (yelling is the other) Now I
never said you were bigoted... but you keep bringing that up.

| Which is exactly why your diversity training is falling on deaf ears.
| Why in God's name would I want to be brainwashed to be like you are...
| I would find it an insult to even be spoken to by a social worker hack
| in this manner.  Count me out!

	Jack, do you ever find your way home in your world? :-)

| <<< Note 712.179 by BSS::DEVEREAUX "phreaking the mundane" >>>

| How'd you figure out I was a republican?

	Cuz you said you don't find someone attractive, and you had to ask if
that would make you a bigot. :-)  Everyone knows a dem would never need to ask
the question..... :-)

    
    	Glen, re your homepage ...
    
    	You have a category that you call religion, and claim the
    	entries may be either pro or con.
    
    	If you actually go to the pages you link to, all are negative.
    
    	I asked in another file to a pointer to Focus on the Family, and
    	you cheerfully pointed me to your website.  Did I connect to FoF ?
    
    	Of course not.  I got a listing of articles that showed how
    	terrible FoF is.  I click on the innocuous title "aol.forum",
    	which will surely bring me where I want to go, because you
    	pointed me there.  Of course, I get a GLAAD media alert, not
    	the link to Fof that I was seeking.
    
    	Other tasty tidbits that you point to are:
    
    	Fundamentalism exposed
    	How to fight the right
    	Strategies against the RRR
    
    	Can you explain to me how these things "Value Diversity" and
    	do not foster ill will ?
    
    
    	

    
    so, does this mean I can't eat Chinese anymore??

         Z   He's right Di, it wouldn't have mattered to Jack. All he wants
         Z   is to have EVERYONE use English so that he can understand and
         Z   enjoy when someone is getting verbally clobbered.
    
    Well, that is definitely a consideration!!!!  I have these visions of
    Glen being the lowly cook!! :-)

    >If I choose not to date an oriental because I don't particularly
    >find them attractive, does this make me a racist biggot?
    
    NO. Bigotry or racism is judging someone based on individual attributes
    that are not controlled by that individual, such as color of skin or
    where one was born. Also, judging an individual based on illogical
    references to a group or collective, such as "black neighborhoods have
    higher crime rates, therefore most black people are criminals", is
    bigotry as well as immoral. 

| <<< Note 712.189 by CNTROL::JENNISON "Crown Him with many crowns" >>>


| If you actually go to the pages you link to, all are negative.

	Actually, yes and no. If you go to the links, they are all negative.
Like the CFV one where they try to link pedophillia directly with homosexuals,
when most cases of pedophillia are heterosexuals. That stood as is, with no
editorial. With the FOF, they put a disclaimer at the top saying they did not 
agree with what was below, but they left what was written intact. Infact, under
the FOF, they even have the list of events. 

| I got a listing of articles that showed how terrible FoF is.  

	Of course you did. They were the ones who wrote the articles. So if you
thought the articles were terrible, then blame FOF.

| I click on the innocuous title "aol.forum", which will surely bring me where 
| I want to go, because you pointed me there. 

	So if you want FOF, you click on aol.forum?

| Fundamentalism exposed
| How to fight the right
| Strategies against the RRR

| Can you explain to me how these things "Value Diversity" and do not foster 
| ill will ?

	Karen, there are things that people do which are wrong, period. The RR
is not what a lot of people would consider the mainstream of Christianity in
this country. And the reasons for that are they go too far. Read what they want
to do, and then tell me if what you think they are doing is right.

	If someone brings harm to someone else, you don't celebrate that. You
fight it. When one twists the facts as some of these organizations do, then
people will try to set the record straight. 

	If I say these people are nothing but a bunch of losers, then I am not
looking at their diversity as a person. If I say what they are doing is harming
others, and prove it, then that has nothing to do with the person, it has
everything to do with the person's actions. 

	Diversity is about awareness of other people, their cultures, etc. It
is not about harmful actions.


Glen

| <<< Note 712.191 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Well, that is definitely a consideration!!!!  I have these visions of
| Glen being the lowly cook!! :-)

	I will have to take out the black laced waitress outfit out of the
closet for the next bash you go to, Jack! :-)

    Re. several notes back
    
    Actually, I'm not a homophobe. I have a sister who's gay and a cousin
    who's transexual, not to mention several gay and transexual friends.
    I respect their choices and get along with them fine.
    
    BTW, I *LOVE* Chinese food (';

    I have an aunt who is gay.  It was always a closet thing with the whole
    family.  I finally broke down and told her I knew and it seems like now
    we are much closer.  I could always sense a kind of alienation before.
    -ss
    

    
    Jack
    
    You gotta admit that Glen's reply .169 was right on..if you want to
    understand what the Chinese guy was saying, then learn Chinese! 
    
    Glen
    
    So how did the first meeting go last Friday?
    
    Shawn
    
    re .118 or thereabouts..hey, having Mexican day, or <whatever> cultural
    day in the cafeteria is a great idea! At least it would be a break from
    the regular 'mystery meat' that they serve up around here! ;)
    
    John

| <<< Note 712.196 by BSS::SMITH_S >>>

| I have an aunt who is gay.  It was always a closet thing with the whole
| family.  I finally broke down and told her I knew and it seems like now
| we are much closer.  I could always sense a kind of alienation before.

	Well if you were in a closet all that time, wouldn't you be alienated?
heh heh

| <<< Note 712.197 by TEXAS1::SOBECKY "It's complicated." >>>


| So how did the first meeting go last Friday?

	Meeting went great. We have what we think will be a good program. We
still have a few refinements, and we want to run it by a HR in June. But 4
people putting their heads together in a brainstorming session really helped.
Having it on a Friday night made us stay focused, as well.


Glen

Didn't Syd Barrett lock himself in a closet?  (Well, a wardrobe, anyway)

Chris.

 Z   You gotta admit that Glen's reply .169 was right on..if you want to
 Z       understand what the Chinese guy was saying, then learn Chinese! 
    
    Yes, he does have a very good point...if I really wanted to know what
    he was saying...which I don't.  But if manager is going to have the
    veracity to do what he did, then take a chance and lose a few customers
    for principle.  Go ahead and show manhood by yelling the F word or some
    such.  This is all about principle!!

    
    	Jack, you just want to hear cuss words in English and maybe
    	see a few fists flying and noses broken.  Admit it!!
    

>                                    But if manager is going to have the
>    veracity to do what he did, then take a chance and lose a few customers
>    for principle.

Audacity.  As in "You have the audacity to doubt my veracity?"

Jack, I don't expect you to get this, because you've shown before that once
you've made up your mind, there's no getting through to you.  As several
people have pointed out, if you're going to criticize an employee, it makes
sense to do it in a language he understands.  The employee in this case
probably had a minimal command of English.  Hence the manager yelled at
him in Chinese.

    Fine...and I get it.  So now we default to option 2.  He should have
    yelled at him in the back room!

    NO I meant veracity.  Maybe the Manager told the cook exactly as it
    was.  Ahhh forget it!

>        <<< Note 712.204 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

>  He should have yelled at him in the back room!

	I dare say it's obvious to all of us that yelling at him in the
	back room would have been preferable.  I don't think anyone's
	been arguing with you about that, so I don't know why you keep
	saying it.

    
    	He shouldn't have yelled at him at all, actually.
    
    	Why can't people just get along with each other and TALK about
    	their problems instead of yelling and fighting?
    

    Because lady Di, it is being inferred that I devalue whatever and it's
    a little box I've been put in for some time now.

  .208  good lord, man, speak English, will you?

    Maybe I'll start speaking English if you start using upper case letters
    where appropriate.  
    
    Funny how we all seem to have these short cut habits!

Di, don't criticize Jack.  He's clearly turned over a new leaf and is just
practicing his Chinese.  Right, Jack?

    Short cut habits?  Jack are you cross dressing as a nun now?  For
    shame!

Habits are cut quite a bit shorter than they used to be.  Most nuns wear
mufti these days.

    phlegm is an ugly word.

    And quite woody too.

| <<< Note 712.201 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>


| But if manager is going to have the veracity to do what he did, then take a 
| chance and lose a few customers for principle.  

	Oh... speaking his native language means he has no principle? Be real.
You want someone who has his own language to suit your noseyness. 

Glen

| <<< Note 712.204 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Fine...and I get it.  So now we default to option 2.  He should have
| yelled at him in the back room!

	I don't think there are too many who would disagree with this. I for
one don't.


Glen

I always find it amusing when Americans go on about using proper English.  You 
lot can't even spell simple words like `colour' properly.  :) etc.

Chris.

    Or Potatoe!

>    Or Potatoe!

Sarcasm aside (okay, unusual for me! :) I still find it unbelievable that, 
after that episode, the guy in question had the gall to show his face in 
public again.  If it was me, I'd just want the ground to open up and swallow 
me.

Chris.

    
    	In Dan's defense, the card he was reading off of did contain
    	the infamous "wrong spelling" of potato ... so he was just
    	trying to be fair and judge all based on the information he
    	was given.
    

    He was celebrating the concept of outcome based education.
    
    There are no wrong answers and everybody feels good about themselves.

    ...and learns nothing useful for living in the real world.  Yup, that's
    outcome based education in a nutshell (or if you prefer, in a half
    shell  8^) ).

    have either one of you two bothered to go into a school and actually
    learn anything about OBE, as it is practiced in most places, or are you
    still learning everything you need to know from Rush or parents who
    blame their children's ignorance on anything other than failing to be
    involved in their kid(s)'s education?  
    
    OBE has some valid points, particularly in the study of concepts, such
    as being able to read a map, reason through problems and to work as a
    team.  (shocking concepts, which certainly are inimicable to those who
    don't know how to ask for directions, even when hopelessly lost)

    I haven't watched (or listened to) Rush in ages.
    
    The touchy-feely crap inserted into OBE (not everything about it is
    entirely evil, FWIW, I'm picking on the obvious flaws as I see them)
    will only set up these kids for a fall.  The real world is not such a
    nice place, and they had better learn that up front.  If you do
    terribly in a given subject- based on objective criteria- then you
    should fail.  Smarter kids should be encouraged to succeed, they should
    not be held down to the least common denominator (which seems to be the
    end result of OBE, from what I've seen of it - even if this is not the
    intent). 
    
    
    -steve

    Meg:
    
    Ditto on that (No pun intended!).  Rush is simply on too late in the
    evening for my gentle, brittle body to bear!  I think I saw it a few
    weeks ago for five minutes when late for work one day...but that was
    about it.  
    
    OBE makes academics and competition secondary to values based
    education, and as you are well aware, values based education is an
    absolute no no with me...mainly because it is run by the NEA hacks and
    a myriad of special interest groups...and some of the most deplorable
    ones at that.  Johnnys inability to read at grade 12 isn't going to
    improve if he his given the false pretense that he is equal to the
    smartest kid in the class.  Johnny needs to identify his weak points
    and work on those points to come into parity with the rest of the
    class.
    
    For me, Algebra was a hideous monster that haunted me throughout high
    school.  I never really grasped the concepts until I was in college.
    It had nothing to do with my self esteem, it had everything to do with
    my inability to understand algebra.
    
    -Jack

Forwarded with permission!

         <<< 501CLB::EIS4$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_SCHOOLING.NOTE;1 >>>
                              -< Home Schooling >-
================================================================================
Note 104.6                   Outcome-Based Education                      6 of 6
COMET::RALSTON                                       33 lines   6-MAY-1994 18:04
                  -< Homeschooling is the only rational way! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    One must keep in mind that the "educated" administrators of our schools
    today have been taught and teach this irrational philosphy. Government
    run schools today are inept at educating children because they embrace
    the ideas of John Dewey, an existentialist who dishonestly replaced the
    objective principles of education with power-usurping, subjective
    methods. Dewey's philosophy dismisses as socially irrelevant the
    teaching of fundamental knowledge such as reading, writing, mathamatics
    and science.
    
    Dewey's philosophy promotes the concept that children can be "educated"
    by allowing them to randomly pursue their own whims. The students whims
    are considered socially relevant to the here-and-now and thus are
    deemed as the basis of education. The "teacher" therefore merely
    follows wherever the child's feeling may lead (rather then the teacher
    providing the child with objective knowledge through sytematic input of 
    facts and information). With an existential action approach, Dewey deems 
    the mind as the creator of "reality". Thus in one stroke he denies all 
    knowledge previously learned while denying reality. 
    
    This is how today's teacher "think". It matters not if they teach in
    public or private school. They all went to American Teacher's Colleges
    and Universities. Home Schooling is the only reasonable alternative. 
    If all loving parents want their children to develop into moral, honest,
    self-sufficient adults they must take the responsibility to educate
    their children and take their tender minds away from todays school
    systems. Parents must, above all, teach their children. Those children
    will then be free to develop into independent, self-sufficient adults
    capable of achieving unlimited prosperity, pleasure, and happiness.
    Properly caring for and rearing children to honest, moral,
    self-sufficient, competent independent adults is the sole
    responsibility and duty of THE PARENTS.
    
    Tom

>    have either one of you two bothered to go into a school and actually
>    learn anything about OBE, as it is practiced in most places, or are you
    
    They've been using some of the techniques in my childrens' school, but
    not much longer.  It's been a horrible failure.  Then there are the
    shining examples from other cities and countries where it was a total
    failure.  OBE was the reason in the mid-'80s when Chicago was called
    the nation's worst school system.  
    
    Mike

    A common sense example is whole language reading vs. phonics.  There is
    too much memorization required for whole language reading.  Young OBE
    students take much longer to learn to read.  Sadly, some never catch on. 
    
    My youngest boy (6) was introduced to phonics at an early age.  He's been
    reading since he was 4.  Phonics has been greatly successful in
    teaching adults to read as well.
    
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    People vary.  Whole word is excellent for some kids, as phonics is for
    others.  Many kids need a combination of whole language and phonics. 
    Again this required parental attention and guidance if one form or the
    other isn't working for a child.  Teachers are not and shouldn't be
    all things to every child.  OBE is not a  demon any more than goals
    based education is in and of itself   Being able to function in a team
    environment is critical in many jobs today, including my own.  So is
    being able to look at a mess and figure out the fastest and best way to
    fix it.  The schools my daughter have been going to practice a little
    of both GBE and OBE.  both girls have thrived in the environment.  
    
    I still stress that parental attention and involvement is the single
    biggest factor in what makes a child succeed or fail, no matter what
    educational, reading, or arithmetic instruction type is used.  
    
    meg
    

    
    As a counter-point to the previous example in .229, I was reading on my own
    before I started school.  I don't ever remember being taught to do it,
    it must have been the steady diet of evil multicultural public
    television shows like Sesame Street and the Electric Comapny that
    helped me along.  They put me ahead into first grade for part of the
    day while I was in kindergarten so I could do 1st grade reading work
    while everyone else learned the alphabet.  My Mom says they had to sit
    me down with a copy of the New York Times to convince the principal
    that I already knew how to read.  
    
    I don't remember phonics, and I'm sure that my Mom never used them on
    me.  She HATES phonics because that's how she was taught to read in the
    40's.  They would memorize a different phonic of something everyday. 
    One day the teacher made a mistake and they all went home and memorized
    the wrong phonic.  She never would have known that anything was wrong
    if my grandmother hadn't asked her what they learned in school that
    day.  They weren't taught how to think about what they were learning, 
    just how to memorize.
    
    All the things I remember most about my education were projects or
    discussions.  The majority of the things I learned using rote
    memorization, like dates for history class, are long gone.
    
    I do have some really unpleasant memories of absolutely stupid teacher
    tricks.  In third grade, I had an ex-nun for "homeroom".  I already
    knew my multiplication tables and was in the "advanced" math class , but 
    the kids in the "medium" math class had the ex-nun as their teacher. 
    at the end of the day she used to stand them at the front of the class 
    in front of a chart with equations and time them.  She had this pointer 
    she used to smack against the chart at the equation she wanted them to 
    answer and they had about a half second before she'd smack the next 
    equation unless you got one wrong, in which case she'd start smacking
    the equations faster.  Of course, there were usually other kids around to 
    watch the whole thing going on.  I used to always have to leave the room 
    the thought of me being the one who had to do that sent shivers down my
    spine. Even though I knew my equations by heart I was sure I'd get
    flustered and then I'd be humiliated in front of a whole bunch of kids. 
    To this day I'm convinced that I would never have pursued a technical
    career if I learned my multiplication tables like that.
    
    I also remember in Mrs. Gillespie's 4th grade class having to stand up 
    in front of the class and read aloud from the textbook.  You couldn't 
    make a mistake.  If you did, the other kids in the class would raise 
    their hands and the first one to identify your mistake would go up and 
    take up where you left off.  If you read a whole page, you got a star 
    marked on a chart and a small candy bar.  Karen Danna and I always were 
    in competition for the most stars.  She was in a different class than I
    was so we'd come in and there'd be another star on the chart and the
    whole class would rout for me to get another star and beat her. 
    Unfortunately, I can't tell you what the textbook was that we were
    reading out of.  I can't even tell you what the subject matter was.  It
    was secondary to reading words without stuttering.
    
    Then there was Mrs. Fraser in 8th grade who made us take spelling tests
    without erasing.  If you made a mistake and erased a word, it didn't
    matter if you eventually spelled it right, it would be marked wrong.
    Of course, I never worried about spelling words wrong, I worried about
    thinking "e" and writing down "a" instead, and having to erase.  Poor
    Mike Harris once made the mistake of using erasable pen (they had just
    come out and were a novelty).  He was left handed and as his hand moved
    across the words he had already written, some of the ink came off on
    his hand and resulted in something that looked "erased".  Further
    complaints brought "use a different pen" from the teacher.  It wasn't
    until much later in life that I learned to keep a dictionary by my side
    when writing a report.  Apparently using a dictionary wasn't as
    important as "not erasing".  [Although I have to give Mrs. Fraser
    credit for the way she taught literature.  While we had some really
    boring plot characterization of short stories that were read, we were
    allowed to do projects for the novels like "come up with the idea for
    the sequel" where we could discuss if our ideas really were in line 
    with what the characters would do.]
    
    My favorite courses were the project/dicsussion based courses.  I also
    loved things like art and my shop classes where you got to make things.
    One of my regrets from high school was that once I got my college bound
    classes out of the way that I didn't sign up for something like jewelry
    making last quarter my senior year.  As a straight-A student I wasn't
    encouraged to do things like that.  It would have been fun though, and
    I'd probably still have some nice silver jewelry.  Not only that, I
    still would have gotten into an Ivy League school, even if I took a
    "goof-ball" class.
    
    As a final point, as a product of this nebulous "OBE" experiment of the
    70's, I just wanted to say that I still read books.  Often. But never a
    supermarket papreback of NYT best-seller.  Mostly interesting
    short-story anthologies or bizarre sci-fi that I find in used book
    stores.  I read more than my Mom, who learned by memorization.  She's the
    Danielle Steel fan.
    
    Lisa

    When my son was in pre-school, they had a lesson where they wanted
    the little kids to identify the color of an object.

    My son refused to play unless he was allowed to SPELL the color
    instead of just saying it.

    He first started trying to read (to figure out what all the letters
    meant on signs) when he was less than 18 months old.  He was writing
    some letters (and drawing shapes like triangles) when he was 2.

    By the time he was supposed to write book reports (at 9 years old),
    he was reading at least one book per day, every day.  He always had
    a long list of possibilities to write about.

    As a young teen, he acquired most of his vocabulary from books (and
    I knew this because he mispronounced some words and I realized that
    he'd never heard them spoken before - he was using words he'd read.)

    My son watched Sesame Street, etc., and we read every night when he
    was a baby.  Books were my favorite gifts to him.

    When my son was born, in fact, I gave him a set of "Lord of the Rings"
    (in a nice book holder.)  I said, "No rush, just read these later when 
    you get the chance."  He was 5 days old.  He did read these very books
    before he was 12 years old (and he loved them!!)
    
    Reading has been one of my son's great pleasures in life, and I like
    to think I gave this to him in some way.

>    I still stress that parental attention and involvement is the single
>    biggest factor in what makes a child succeed or fail, no matter what
>    educational, reading, or arithmetic instruction type is used.  
    
    Agreed.  I've spent many hours with my kids to supplement what the
    public schools don't give them.  Parental involvement is the only
    reason a lot of kids make the honor roll.
    
    Mike

                           THE DIVERSITY MYTH:
      "Multiculturalism" and the Politics of Intolerance at Stanford
                    DAVID O. SACKS and PETER A. THIEL
                    Foreword by ELIZABETH FOX-GENOVESE

In the name of "diversity," many of our nation's leading academic and
cultural institutions have worked to squelch dissent and stifle intellectual
life. This powerful book exposes the scandal at the institution most closely
identified with the decline of higher education in the U. S. -- Stanford
University. Authored by two Stanford graduates, The THE DIVERSITY MYTH is a
compelling insider's tour of the world of speech codes, the dumbing down of
admissions standards and curricula, the campus witch hunts, and the
anti-Western zealotry that masquerades as "multiculturalism."

David Sacks and Peter Thiel show for the first time the connections among
disparate cultural trends that have been at the forefront of national debate
-- political correctness on campus and in the workplace, strife between the
genders, the nihilism of generation X, the so-called "cultural war" in
America, and the apparent rift between the West and the rest of the world.
The focus on Stanford enables the authors to discuss a broad array of
issues, ranging from affirmative action to religion, literature to art, and
sex education to new-age victimology.

Exhaustively researched and documented with hundreds of primary sources,
including The Stanford Daily, class readings, and official uni-versity
publications, The THE DIVERSITY MYTH reveals a pattern of politicized
classes, housing, budget priorities, and much more. Instead of promoting
genuine diversity and tolerance, multiculturalism has recreated many of the
taboos, myths, rites, and social roles of intolerance which characterized
non-Western societies. Multiculturalism, the authors conclude, is not about
learning more; it is about learning less.

THE DIVERSITY MYTH vividly reveals the nature of the cultural revolution on
campus and details the changes necessary to reverse the tragic
disintegration of American colleges and to restore academic excellence.

CONTENTS:

     Introduction: Christopher Columbus, The First Multiculturalist

     I. The New Academy
          1. The West Rejected
          2. Multiculturalism: A New World for a New World
          3. Educating Generation X
          4. The Engineering of Souls

     II. The New Culture
          5. Stages of Oppression
          6. "Welcome to Salem"
          7. The Egalitarian Elite
          8. Caliban's Kingdom


"A first-rate piece of reporting and analysis, THE DIVERSITY MYTH is
required reading for those who care about the content of higher education."
-- DINESH D'SOUZA, Author, Illiberal Education

"THE DIVERSITY MYTH convincingly argues that imposing `multiculturalism'
amounts to nothing less than a war on the very idea of civilization." --
ELIZABETH FOX-GENOVESE, El�nore Raoul Prof. of Humanities, Emory U.

"By detailing the current corruption of our academic ideals, Sacks and
Thiel have hastened the much-needed and long-awaited restoration of higher
education." -- CHRISTOPHER COX, U. S. Congressman

"THE DIVERSITY MYTH confirms the continuing decline of intellectual
integrity in our finest universities and lays bare what must be corrected."
-- MARTIN ANDERSON, Author, Imposters in the Temple

"THE DIVERSITY MYTH is a great read -- and an important and instructive
story. It will not just cause alarm about our educational institutions -- it
will inspire renewal." -- WILLIAM KRISTOL, Editor and Publisher, The Weekly
Standard

"THE DIVERSITY MYTH is must reading for anyone who values the discourse
of civility over the politics of intellectual intolerance and zealotry." --
PHILIP MERRILL, Publisher, Washingtonian

"THE DIVERSITY MYTH shows how McCarthy-ism on the left is as dangerous
as it is on the right. Read and weep for what is happening at our colleges."
-- RICHARD D. LAMM, Former Governor of Colorado

"With fascinating and often disheartening detail, THE DIVERSITY MYTH is
the most thorough and detailed account yet available of what
`multiculturalism' has meant at a major American university." -- NATHAN
GLAZER, Professor of Education and Sociology, Harvard University

"There's hardly a better source than this book for why multiculturalism
on campus cannot work." -- LINDA CHAVEZ, President, Center for Equal
Opportunity


THE AUTHORS: DAVID O. SACKS and PETER A. THIEL are Research Fellows for The
Independent Institute in Oakland, California, and graduates of Stanford
University.

DAVID O. SACKS attends the University of Chicago Law School. Having served
as a research assistant for Judge Robert H. Bork, he has worked as a
legislative aide to U. S. Representative Christopher Cox, at which time
National Journal selected Mr. Sacks as one of Capitol Hill's "rising stars."
He received his A.B. in economics (1994) from Stanford University, where he
served as editor-in-chief of the weekly, The Stanford Review, and Campus, a
national student newspaper. His articles have appeared in The Wall Street
Journal, National Review, Policy Review, and Academic Questions.

PETER A. THIEL heads up Thiel Capital International, LLC, a global
investment fund. He has worked as a derivatives trader at Credit Suisse
Financial Products, a securities lawyer for Sullivan & Cromwell, and a
speechwriter for former Education Secretary William J. Bennett. Phi Beta
Kappa, he received his A.B. in philosophy (1989) and J.D. (1992) from
Stanford University, where he also was the founding editor of The Stanford
Review, president of the Stanford Federalist Society, and editor of the
Stanford Law Review. He is rated a National Master in the U. S. Chess
Federation.

 Z   multiculturalism has recreated many of the taboos, myths, rites, and 
 Z   social roles of intolerance which characterized
 Z   non-Western societies. Multiculturalism, the authors conclude, is not
 Z   about learning more; it is about learning less.
    
    Amen preach on brother!!

    <yawn>

    /john:
    
    This perfectly sums up what I've been saying all along.  Modern America
    is the first progressive society I am aware of where the great
    educational institutions have brainwashed the lambs to eschew the
    civilizations which have bettered our world while embracing the horrid
    barbaric cultures which have been a detriment to modern progress.
    
    -Jack

    way to go, jack!

can anyone say what Jack did, but in latin?

    Why bother?
    
    

    I'll say it in Bushonics. "west good. east BAD."

| <<< Note 712.240 by CSC32::M_EVANS "be the village" >>>

| Why bother?


	More chance of understanding it?

    Jack,
    
    Are you saying there is something wrong with acknowledging other
    cultures good points, as well as their bad points, and our bad and good
    points?  There is something divisive about teaching history and the
    historical contributions of people who weren't white men?
    
    

    What Jack is saying is that if the rest of us viewed the world
    as myopicly (sp?) as Jack and his ilk, we'd be better off.

    Watching him froth up is fun, too.

    \john

Jack has an ilk?  I guess he has something in common with Glen.

    is ilk something like bilge?

    
    bulge?
    

    ...not me.

 Z   Are you saying there is something wrong with acknowledging other
 Z   cultures good points, as well as their bad points, and our bad and
 Z   good points?  There is something divisive about teaching history and the
 Z   historical contributions of people who weren't white men?
    
    No, not at all.  This is what diversity is all about.  
    
    Acknowledging good points of any culture can add value...but please
    don't sit there and look me straight in the eyes proclaiming that
    puppet dictatorships and socialist/communist countries are in essence
    equal to that of western European culture.  One would have to be a fool
    to affirm such an absurdity.
    
    Medicine, education, technology....all arts derived in western
    civiliation.  Afrocentrism is a sham and is condecendingly racist in
    nature.  Communism and socialism are failed social
    experiments....bringing about oppression and mediocrity.  
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 712.249 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>


| Acknowledging good points of any culture can add value...

as long as they don't speak a different language while in America, fight for 
women's rights, be old, be old and vote for a Kennedy, belong to an ilk, that 
is. :-)

 ZZ   as long as they don't speak a different language while in America,
    
    Speak but expect to sweep floors and get alot of bewildered looks.
    
 ZZ   fight for women's rights, 
    
    Fine, as long as you embrace your own agenda.
    
 ZZ   be old, be old and vote for a Kennedy, belong to an
 ZZ   ilk, that is. :-)
    
    You can be old....as long as you embrace Reagan!
    

| <<< Note 712.251 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>

| Speak but expect to sweep floors and get alot of bewildered looks.

	My.... you are too kind, Jacko!

| Fine, as long as you embrace your own agenda.

	Huh?

    Women who want to be men Glen but don't want to do the sex change
    thingie!

    Jack, not knowing any women who want to be men, I have no idea what you
    are talking about.  Care to elaborate, or do you just need a bigger
    shovel so you can dig your hole a bit deeper, I do have one with an
    extra long handle if you wish.
    
    Medicine did not all come from western civilization, it came from other
    places and continues to come from other places as well, shocking as
    that may be to you.  currently accupunture is working on some stuff for
    me better than the western attempts.  
    
    Africa is not the only non-western continent, in case you are slept
    through geography.  
    
    meg
    
    

    Meg, I realize what you are saying.  In fact, much of the foundation of
    modern mathematics is rooted from Egyptian cultures...hyroglyphics and
    other forms of art and communication.  All I'm saying Meg is don't try
    to put countries like Haiti, The Sudan, Ghana, and other bastians of
    primal barbarianism on equal footing with the United States and other
    progressive countries.  Recognize the fact that a witch doctor with a
    bone through his nose isn't on the same level of credibility as a John
    Hopkins surgeon.  Stop teaching our children the lie that eurocentric
    heritage has somehow lost its greatness due to the ills and crimes
    perpetrated on minorities and third world countries while the American
    Indian was always peace loving, sitting by the fire offering the peace
    pipe.  This is simply revisionism.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 712.255 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>

| Meg, I realize what you are saying.  

	Me think thems are just mere wordzzzzz.

| Recognize the fact that a witch doctor with a bone through his nose isn't on 
| the same level of credibility as a John Hopkins surgeon.  

	This has to go down in history as an OJ Martin classic.

| Recognize the fact that a witch doctor with a bone through his nose isn't on 
| the same level of credibility as a John Hopkins surgeon.  

Unquestionably true.

Experience with surgeons, as well as experience with the crap that passes
for research coming out of John Hopkins, and experience with how easily
everything that happens there is influenced by the politics du jour
definitely puts a witch doctor (with or without the nosebone) on a
distinctly different level of credibility as a John Hopkins surgeon.

Strange that we'd agree on this one.

    Depraved Philistines all of you!! :-)

    .255
    
    Jack, the Sudan _was_ part of Egypt at that time, The country was known
    as Nubia or the Land of Cush.  Some fine Egyptian-influenced structures
    are found there, indicating a sophisticated society with highly
    developed local skills.
    
    However, Mathematics based on numbers began with Pythagoras around 580
    BE (Before Eric).  The Egyptians used simple geometry to build the
    pyramids.  The development of forms of mathematics owes much to Arabic
    culture, from which we get our numerical system. As you probably don't
    know, the Sudanese are also Arabs.
    
    

    Johns Hopkins
        ^

    Yeah, and that's another thing I hate about them.  They got too many
    plurals.  Kinda like having one too many "Boutros."

    :-D

    Shouldn't that be "one too many Boutroses"?
    
    It's nice to have a spare Boutros. You never no when it might come in
    handy.

    I don't know.  As has already been shown, I'm plurally impaired today.

    Boutrosi? Boutrosen? Boutri?

    And with three, it's Boutroi?

If it were Greek, the plural would be Boutroi.

    Lucky he wasn't called Sven.

Golly, you're clever.

    > Stop teaching our children the lie that eurocentric heritage has
    > somehow lost its greatness due to the ills and crimes perpetrated on
    > minorities and third world countries while the American Indian was
    > always peace loving, sitting by the fire offering the peace pipe.  
    > This is simply revisionism.
    
    This is utter nonsense.
    
    If this is what you think you've understood about multiculturalism,
    go back to school and pay attention to our EXTREMELY western values of
    tolerance and respect for INDIVIDUALS which easily extends to respect
    for other cultural paradigms.  The ignorant fear displayed in your
    notes is a greater disservice to, and indicates a greater failing of, 
    our western cultural heritage, than any multiculturalism.
    
    DougO

  well, we only give 85% values on Canadian pair o' dimes...

  bb

    DougO:
    
    Centrisms are usually dictated by politics or religion.  I am not
    trying to imply that barbarianism is driven because of the color of
    one's skin or anything like this.  
    
    Valuing diversity is a different animal than embracing cultures that
    are in essence abysmal.  What are you trying to prove?  
    
    -Jack

    I am not trying to prove anything, Jack- I'm trying to tell you that 
    if you want to defend our heritage you need to spend more time
    understanding it first.
    
    DougO

    Jack,  During the peak time of immigration to the US, the highest
    numbers of immigrants came from Germany.  Maybe even you can think of a
    coupla times when the Western European culture that was found in
    Germany (as dictated by their politics and religion) was "in essence
    abysmal".
    
    Assuming you know where Germany is, of course.
    

    Lest we forget:
    

    Hitler was the most influential person of the 20th century!

    ...and can be fit into a myriad of conversations and debates
    here in the 'box.

    and Hitler was a Western European.  
    
    Jack,
    
    I have given up on you.  I used to think there was some glimmer of hope
    that you would actually bother to read something that might not fit
    your narrow idea of how the world should be.  I was apparently wrong.
    
    meg

 Z   I have given up on you.  I used to think there was some glimmer of
 Z   hope
 Z   that you would actually bother to read something that might not fit
 Z   your narrow idea of how the world should be.  I was apparently
 Z   wrong.
    
    Meg dear...I don't think your listening too clearly.  Value other
    cultures but not all cultures are the same....fair enough?

| <<< Note 712.278 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>


| Meg dear...I don't think your listening too clearly.  Value other
| cultures but not all cultures are the same....fair enough?

	Jack, I think Meg hit the nail on the head. The above fits into what
she said about you.

    Glen:
    
    You're a hostile witness anyway so who the heck cares what you think. 
    You're the queen of the sensitivity pimps.
    
    -Jack

    RE: .274

>    During the peak time of immigration to the US, the highest
>    numbers of immigrants came from Germany.  

    When do your consider the "peak time of immigration"?  Currently the US
    has more immigrants (roughly 20 million) living within its borders than
    at any other time within its history.

    -- Dave

I suspect a smaller proportion of U.S. residents are immigrants now than
were in the mid to late 19th and early 20th centuries.

    The peak period pertaining to European cultural influences.
    
    The nineteenth century mostly - 1815-1915, some 30 million immigrants.
    The first 15 million from Western Europe, the last wave of about 15
    million in the period 1890-1914 largely from eastern Europe.
    The leading single nation from 1820-1975 is Germany, at about 7
    million.
    
    Beyond 1976 the immigration sources have changed to Mexico, Latin
    America and Asia.

    RE: .283

>    The peak period pertaining to European cultural influences.

    Sorry.  Must have missed where you said "European" immigration earlier.

    RE: .282

>I suspect a smaller proportion of U.S. residents are immigrants now than
>were in the mid to late 19th and early 20th centuries.

    Probably.  I also suspect that if you excluded Amerindians then when
    the Mayflower landed that there was a higher proportion of immigrants
    as well.  That still doesn't dilute the fact that the US has more
    immigrants now than at any other time in history and therefore peak
    immigration period would be relatively recently.

    -- Dave

Depends how you define peak immigration.  I think 1000 immigrants in a total
population of 2000 have a greater effect on society than 20,000,000 in a total
population of 250,000,000.

    
    but Gerald  
    
    they were immigrants that at least looked like me, even if they talked
    "funny."
    
    These new immigrants don't look like me, did not come from the cradle
    of civilization, (Western Europe) and gee, didn't we fight wars against
    people who look like the new ones?  quick!  slam the doors, build that
    wall, check the papers of anyone who lookslike "them" any time they are
    walking down the street.  
    
    set mode back to normal and out of sarcasm.
    
    meg
    
    

    RE: .285

>I think 1000 immigrants in a total
>population of 2000 have a greater effect on society than 20,000,000 in a total
>population of 250,000,000.

    Of course, and the relevance is?

>Depends how you define peak immigration.

    If you want to change the definition of peak from quantitative numbers
    of immigrants to impact on society, I suppose we have to take the
    impact of Einstien on society, or perhaps the some of the immigrant
    CEO's and chief researchers that have impacted the computer industry,
    medicine or other industries.  Of course the final conclusion would be
    very close to complete nonsense.

    RE: .286

>    they were immigrants that at least looked like me, even if they talked
>    "funny."
>    
>    These new immigrants don't look like me, did not come from the cradle
>    of civilization, (Western Europe) and gee, didn't we fight wars against
>    people who look like the new ones?  quick!  slam the doors, build that

    Why are you bringing racism into this?  

    -- Dave

>    If you want to change the definition of peak from quantitative numbers
>    of immigrants to impact on society, I suppose we have to take the
>    impact of Einstien on society, or perhaps the some of the immigrant
>    CEO's and chief researchers that have impacted the computer industry,
>    medicine or other industries.  Of course the final conclusion would be
>    very close to complete nonsense.

Apples and oranges.  Einstein's impact on society had little to do with his
status as an immigrant.  The great waves of immigration from Europe affected
the overall culture of the U.S.

    
    gee, colin, I'd of thought the Irish or Chinese would have had the
    most. Learn something new everday.

  Henry Ford.  Fled Irish potatoe famine as toddler, to Canada, then
 to a real country.

  bb

>  Henry Ford.  Fled Irish potatoe famine as toddler, to Canada, then
> to a real country.

You lie.  Why do you lie?

  uh-oh, Gerald is usually right about these things...but I swear I remembered
 the Ford was among the famine immigrants to Canada...i'll look it up when I
 get home...come on, Sacks - what did I misremember ?

  bb

>  Henry Ford.  Fled Irish potatoe famine as toddler, to Canada, then
                                 ^

No, that was Dan Quayle.

nnttm,
-Madman

    Pretty much all of it.

Henry Ford was born in Michigan in 1863.  His father was an Irish immigrant.

  Ah, so that was it.  What's a generation, after all ?

  bb

    
    colin, where did the Irish and Chinese wind up in relation to germany?

    The Irish are a little to the left, and the Chinese on the far right.
    According to my map.

    Here you go mark:
    
    
    1790 Census - Pop = 4 million.
      
                   3 million Europeans: English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and
                   German.  1 Million Africans.
    
      1820-1975, -  Starting Pop = 9.5 million (up only 5.5 million,
                    1790-1820)
                    
      	     About 50 million people came here.
      	     
                  39.5 Million from Europe (32 million came before 1924).
                  2.2 million from Asia (mostly China).  8.3 million
                  from other Western hemisphere countries.
                  
      Pop Growth:
      
                                 up  
      	1840:  17 million
      	1860:  31 million  14 
      	1880:  50 million  19
      	1900:  76 million  26
      	1920: 106 Million  30
      	            
    References point to Germany as the leading single nation during this
    time at 6.9 million. Ireland third at 4.7 million behind Italy at 5.2
    million.  Best I can figure, about 50% of the population growth was due
    to immigration during this time.  4 million came from Canada.
      
      1976-1986  Starting Pop =  220 Million
      
                    The figures are tiny in comparison - 720,000 Mexico,
                    425,000 Vietnam down to 150,000 from UK.
                                 
    It looks like the peak period for the impact of European immigration on
    the existing population was during the early part of 1820-1924. 
    Immigration alone more than doubled     the population from 1820 to
    1840.   After that, the effect tapered off - relatively few new
    arrivals compared to the exploding local population.
       
       
    There were probably a large single events in a short time frame, such
    as during the Irish potato famine, but even then, it was only hundreds
    of thousands of Irish, rather than millions.  This tends to be
    remembered as a huge influx, but it was a relatively small figure
    compared to the general tide of immigrants.
       
    Since 1820, the % increase in population every 10 years has declined
    consistently from a peak of 36% in 1820 to a trough of 7% in the 1940s.
    The current 10-year growth rate is 10.21%, of which immigration forms a
    tiny percentage.  
       
    One problem with the figures is that there were other colonies of
    European origin that later became absorbed into the union - such as     
    Louisiana, Florida, and California.  Still predominantly European.
    

    impact of Einstien on society, or perhaps the some of the immigrant
                                                  sum

nnttm,
Peet

  Gerald was, of course, correct.  It was Henry Ford's father who was
 famine Irish, who came through Canada.  Ford was indeed born in Mich.

  bb