Conference back40::soapbox

                            What Cancer Can't Do
    
    Cancer is so limited...It cannot cripple love, it cannot shatter hope,
    it cannot erode faith, it cannot eat away peace, it cannot shut out
    memories, it cannot invade the soul, it cannot reduce eternal life, it
    cannot quench the Spirit, it cannot lessen the power of the
    resurrection.
    
    by Harold Larsen, cancer victim

  what in God's name is the purpose of this topic?

    The first line of the basenote explains the purpose.

    
      Which spirituals matter ?  Shall we gather by the river ?
    
      bb

    Hey did any of you see "The Jerk"?  Remember the wedding that Steve
    Martin had with Bernadette Peters...the Witch Doctor....That was a
    riot!
    
    You hear Steve Martin saying...
    
    "Dear Ma...today we entered a life of wedded bliss.  We had a very
    religious ceremony..."    Then you see this Witch Doctor yell
    BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH............

    Actually, I thought the base note was cute.  Maybe this belongs in the
    "confessions" topic?

    
    
    
    	God is an Iron, he practices irony.

    God is not a slob like one of us.

    does god get phone calls from the pope in rome?

    Glenn:
    
    Edith Keeler must die.

    >God is not a slob like one of us.
        
    how's that myth go, the one about 'created in his own image'...
    
    DougO

    Created in God's image, i.e. Spiritual being.  
    
    Formed out of the dust of the earth...this is where we became slobs!

    slobs need exemptions too!!

    God is George Burns in a golf hat, pants, and shoes.:) 
    God has a sence of humor too. Look in a mirror!:)
    

    Nec vero superstitione tollenda religio tollitur

    ipso facto, e plurbus unum, non sequitur, ad nauseum

  Utsha upya

    
    
    ixnay...otnay inay erehay...
    

 I was trying to remember that line

    
    Ummm...i think I saw a ghost.
    
    ...recently...
    

    I think God has a good sense of humor. I bought this cactus a couple of
    weeks ago. It looks like 2 large marbles, stacked one on top of the
    other, with 4 inch long hairs coming out here and there. I look at the
    thing and crack up. There are some animals, too, that are hysterically
    funny in their appearance and/or actions. Raccoons, for instance. He
    must get in a wacky mood every now and then...

| <<< Note 703.21 by CSLALL::SECURITY >>>

| He must get in a wacky mood every now and then...

	True, He made you! :-)

    
    	What a pervert.  I'm surprised at you, Dave.
    

	Ray, nice note. Welcome back!

    ...now I can face the day with a smile.

    Ray:
    
    I would like to make a few comments here if I may.  I believe the word
    "Love" in .1 is Agape Love...meaning that unconditional love is just
    that...unconditional.  Therefore, AIDS cannot cripple love because love
    stands with no strings attached.
    
    Regarding your dad.  Personally, I believe it is a travesty that
    anybody who is a believer departs in this manner.  Trials can sure
    bring out the true nature in all of us.  Your dad's experience reminded
    me much of what Job went through.  Job was a devout believer in the
    Lord and offered sacrifices not only for himself, but also for his
    children.  Yet even Job, a Godly man who feared God and revered God
    could not depart his emotions from the human condition.  The man lost
    his family, his health, his livestock, his property.  He was left
    destitute and after being cajoled by his friends to realize he surely
    must have sinned to deserve this, he looked up to the sky and basically
    said, "Lord, why me?  Have I not been Holy in your sight?  I did not
    deserve such a judgement..."  
    
    In essence, Job fell into the same trap your dad did.  His faith in
    God's sovereignty waned.  So your dad is in league with Sarah the
    unfaithful, Moses the murderer, Paul the executioner, David the
    adulterer, Peter the denier, and a myriad of other biblical heroes who 
    took their eyes off of God.  There is NO sin that the grace of Christ 
    cannot cover, except the sin of rejecting that grace.   
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    God's reply to Job...
    
    "Who is this that darkens cousel by words without knowledge?  Gird up
    thy loins like a man, for I will demand an answer from thee.  Where
    were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?  Declare if you have
    understanding."   
    
    Jobs friends gave bad counsel and Job had a pity party.  God needed to
    help even Job, an outstanding man of Godliness understand the
    sovereignty of God.
    
    Ray, it sounds like these Christians who gave you counsel regarding
    your dad's eternal standing spoke as Job's friends.  Darkened counsel
    without understanding.  However, I stand by the belief that Agape Love
    cannot be crippled by cancer or AIDS.  Now what we as humans perceive
    as love, the superficial stuff we tout as love, can in fact be
    crippled.  
    
    -Jack

    I tell you, when people say to me "I love you in the Lord" what it
    means to is is "I couldn't possibly love you on my own" which to me
    isn't love of any kind. It's nothing more than a line people use to
    absolve themselves of really caring down deep inside. I know, I use to
    say it. It's such a lie.

	Jack, please come into reality. Ok.... you there yet? Ok... so I don't
have all day. I'll just say it... :-)

	There is NO SUCH THING as perfect love.... when humans are involved. So
love ties can be broken because we are anything but perfect. So it is quite
understandable that these things happened. Try to remember that.



Glen

  Z  There is NO SUCH THING as perfect love.... when humans are involved.  So
  Z  love ties can be broken because we are anything but perfect. So it is
  Z  quite understandable that these things happened. Try to remember that.
    
    Hmmm....interesting.  This isn't the perception I get when reading your
    entries in the Christian-Perspective conference.  
    
    Perfect love casteth out all fear.  Particularly in the Christianity
    and Gays topic.  Incidently I agree with you that when humans are
    involved, perfect love cannot exist purely.  However, I see this coming
    from you as an indictment on the human condition....something I've been
    harping on over and over and yet something you regularly reject.   
    
    So you agree then that the two greatest commandments...Love God with
    whole heart, soul and mind...and love thy neighbor as thyself cannot
    really be fulfilled, since perfect love which Christ was speaking of
    here cannot be in harmony with the human condition?
    
    -Jack

    .27
    
    > 						      ... I believe the word
    > "Love" in .1 is Agape Love...meaning that unconditional love is just
    > that...unconditional.
    
    Agape does not mean unconditional.  Greek has four words that we
    translate as "love" in English.  Agape means love that is spiritual,
    not sexual, in its nature.  Agape is the love a parent has for his or
    her children, among other instances.  And it CERTAINLY can be destroyed
    if the object is perceived to have become unlovable.

    Dick:
    
    So you believe that unconditional love does not exist?

>    I tell you, when people say to me "I love you in the Lord" what it
>    means to is is "I couldn't possibly love you on my own" which to me
>    isn't love of any kind. It's nothing more than a line people use to
>    absolve themselves of really caring down deep inside. I know, I use to
>    say it. It's such a lie.


  To you perhaps.  But, please don't apply that to me, or other Christians
  who say it and mean it.  You can't speak for them, or me.



 Thank you.



 Jim

    That's what I think it is, yes.
    
    When push came to shove, all the words became meaningless.

    .32
    
    > So you believe that unconditional love does not exist?
    
    Where did I say that?  I said that agape is not what you called it.  If
    you're going to use words, it behooves you to use them correctly; this
    is called "communication."

    I didn't say you said this.  I'm asking you if there is a greek
    translation of the word love properly applied to unconditional love.
    
    -Jack

    How about if you learn enough Greek to answer your own question?
    I'll give you a clue:  "unconditional love" is a noun modified by an
    adjective.  Greek has adjectives.

    that's greek to jack.

| <<< Note 703.30 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Hmmm....interesting.  This isn't the perception I get when reading your
| entries in the Christian-Perspective conference.

	Nice try, point them out. Why would I always say that humans are not
capable of being 100% correct in life, but say that love is perfect for humans?

| So you agree then that the two greatest commandments...Love God with whole 
| heart, soul and mind...and love thy neighbor as thyself cannot really be 
| fulfilled, since perfect love which Christ was speaking of here cannot be in 
| harmony with the human condition?

	Love God with whole heart, soul, and mind. Seems to me that these are
human conditions. Love they neighbor as thyself is a human condition. So you
got that part of it right. Now show me where the phrases in the Bible say that
these things are perfect love? 


Glen

    In Mark 12:30, the two greatest commandments are given.  Both
    commandments use the word Agape in them.  The word Love, in these
    contexts imply an emotion based on who a person is and not on what it
    does.  Therefore Dick, a mother who loses love for a child because they 
    are unloveable, simply never displayed agape love in the first place.  
    Patriotism is a good example of agape love.  We may not always agree
    with what our country does, but those who have agape love for the
    country will not allow that love to wane.
    
    Glen, I believe agape love IS the perfect love we are seeking.  It
    doesn't mean we will always condone or agree with the elements of that
    love but it is perfect nonetheless.  God's love for Jesus Christ was a
    bestowed love and unwavering.  We are called to this same kind of love
    for our neighbor.  It doesn't mean we will always follow it but it is
    something we are commanded to do.
    
    -Jack

re: .40 (JackM)

>    In Mark 12:30, the two greatest commandments are given.

You mean even greater than,

    "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness In Judicial Matters"?

Just checking.
\john

    \john:
    
    sometimes there is no hope arguing with simeone who doesn't even listen
    to the ither sides arguement.

 Z   sometimes there is no hope arguing with simeone who doesn't even listen
 Z   to the ither sides arguement.
    
    No actually it is spelt Simeon.  No E at the end!

    .40
    
    Jack, the word love appears in the KJV of the New Testament 195 times,
    including instances of charity, which is translated from agape.  Of all
    those times, I believe fewer than ten are NOT either agape or its verb
    equivalent agapao (or forms thereof).
    
    You can define agape to mean whatever you like in your own little
    world, but the Greek word does NOT mean neverending, unmeasured love,
    and attempts on your part to say that it does are doomed to fall on
    deaf ears if your interlocutor has the slightest interest in knowing
    what the words actually mean as opposed to what you say they mean.
    
    OBTW, if you wanted to say love without measure, you might say agape
    ametros.  That construction is actually used where the Gospels say that
    God poured out his love for us without measure.

    Thanks Gramps.

    Dick, ya know what song reminds me of you???  The Wall, by Pink Floyd.
    
    "IF YA DON'T EAT YER MEAT...YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY PUDDING..HOW CAN YA HAVE
    ANY PUDDING IF YA DON'T EAT YER MEAT......"
    
    "YOU......YES YOU.....STAND STILL LADDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

    
    	"When we were young I went to school
    	 and there were certain teachers who
    	 would hurt the children any way they could."
    

    Re: -1
    
    and they all looked like you.

    Me thinks Mike has no clue how appropriate his p/n is to this thread. 
    

    
    "IF YA DON'T EAT YER MEAT...YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY PUDDING..HOW CAN YA HAVE
     ANY PUDDING IF YA DON'T EAT YER MEAT......"
    
    Now that's spiritual!!  :)

| <<< Note 703.40 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| Glen, I believe agape love IS the perfect love we are seeking.  

	Seeking, yes, but not something we are capable of. 



Glen

| <<< Note 703.50 by GENRAL::RALSTON "Only half of us are above average!" >>>


| "IF YA DON'T EAT YER MEAT...YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY PUDDING..HOW CAN YA HAVE
| ANY PUDDING IF YA DON'T EAT YER MEAT......"

	Does it have to be yer own meat? :-)

	Brian, I think you're right, Mike doesn't get how good that pn is. 

    Gak.

    Actually I do, but it comes from the book of Ezekiel, not Pink Floyd.

<---there's a difference? :-)

    You'd have to read it to find out.

    "I had the MEANEST Mother in the World"
     
    While other kids ate candy for breakfast, I had to eat cereal.  When
    others had coke and candy for lunch, I had to eat a sandwich.  As you
    can guess, my supper was different from others, too.
    
    My mother insisted upon knowing where I was at all times.  You'd think
    I was on a chain gang.  She had to know who our friends were, and what
    we were doing.
    
    I'm ashamed to admit..but she actually spanked us.  Now you know just
    how really mean she was.
    
    While the other girls were wearing what they wanted, my mother made me
    dress modestly and decently.  I couldn't smoke-or go to trashy
    movies-like my friends did.  How could she have been so mean?
    
    My mother even had the nerve to break the Child Labor Law.  She made us
    work!  We had to wash dishes, make beds, learn to cook and all sort of
    cruel things.  I believe she laid awake at night-just thinking up mean
    things to do to us.
    
    She always insisted upon us telling the truth, the whole truth and
    nothing but the truth-even if it killed us!  And sometimes it nearly
    did!
    
    She embarrassed us by having our dates come to the door to get us.  No
    tooting the horn for any boys dating us!
    
    Because my mother was so mean, none of us have ever been arrested,
    divorced or beaten by a mate.  Each of my brothers served his time
    proudly in service to his country in the military.
    
    And...whom do we have to blame for the terrible way we turned out?  You
    guessed it-my mean mother!!!
    
    Look what we all missed: we never got to march in a protest parade.  We
    never attended a rock concert.  We never took part in a riot.  We never
    burned our draft cards (or our bras.)  We never even had an experience
    with drugs (we never inhaled).  We never were able to get drunk-and a
    lot of other things that other kids did.
    
    She even forced us to go to church and become God-fearing, educated,
    honest adults.
    
    I say all this to let you know that now I have children of my own, and
    I plan to be just like my mom:  THE MEANEST MOTHER IN THE WORLD!
    
    
    reprinted without permission from "Drawaing Closer"
    
    italics added by me

    So what?
    
    My mother was all those things, and I was a teenage mother, marched in
    protests, and damn near wound up a permanent member of the
    "underclass."  
    
    My best friends' mothers were the same.  One is a member of a commune,
    her older sister ran away and married a jazz musicsion after her first
    son was born, and has had 4 "tea colored babies, after son # 1 was
    born.  Another is a housewife, of sorts, who runs her own astrology
    business, was in the same protest marches, and followed the Dead around
    for several years.
    
    What is your point?

    if it needs explained to you Meg, it wouldn't be worth it to you.

    
    tho i still don't know what having the "meanest mother in the world"
    has to do with not being divorced or beaten by a mate...that has
    nothing to do with a child's rearing...
    
    

     I don't know if I'd say it has _nothing_ to do with a child's rearing,
    but I would say that a child can be raised with the highest standards
    and still be divorced or beaten by a mate.

    well, that's kinda what i meant... :>
    
    

    Be responsible for yourself and stop crediting or blaming others for
    your life. You are who you are because you decided to be that way.
    Everyone has had good times and hard times. Learn from them and move
    on. Happiness is the most important thing in your one and only life
    and ony you are responsible for making it happy. 

    Perhaps a good upbringing creates a sense of a better judge in
    character?
    -ss

    And "good upbringing" iiiiissssss????

    ...is the opposite of bad upbringing.  

    Raq,
    
    I guess if you don't get it without explanation, it can't be explained. 
    :-)/2
    
    meg

    Okay, so it's a relative term.  Does that mean it's safe to say that
    there is no difference. Actions of parents have no effect on the
    judgement of their offspring?  I don't think so. I don't care if you
    got pregnant as a teenager. That does not make for bad parenting on
    your folk's part.  As for me, (and I think I was brought up good, also)
    I can't imagine getting in a situation such as an abusive spouse,
    strung out on drugs, or the such.  And it amazes me at some of the
    idiots that do.  Maybe I'm just use to dealing with too much
    incompetance.  Idiots breed idiots.
    -ss

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    The heel has no sole!

    Good upbringing is teaching your children not to snarf.  Good
    upbringing include whacking them with a wooden spoon as often as
    possible. 

    No, actually it is whack child with spoon as necessary.

    >>Idiots bree idiots.
    
    well, according to your standard, my parents were idiots.  my mother
    was married at 16, had me at 18, my brother by 25.  she was more
    interested in partying than parenting, so she gave up custody in the
    divorce.  my father has a temper you wouldn't believe, and at times has
    been violent towards my mother and step-mother (and occassionally
    others), and he got himself addicted to drugs at one point.  neither
    parent finished high school, tho both now have their g.e.d.s and my
    mother has taken some college courses.  i was not a teenage mother, i
    graduated high school on time, i went to college and in all but 1
    semester was on the dean's list, i was never in an abusive relationship
    and do not do, or have the desire to do drugs.  but i am an idiot
    because my parents were.  thank you for setting me straight on this.
    

    re. -1
    
       You said it, not me.
    -ss

    
    
    	Good, solid parenting certainly helps to raise self-reliant,
    responsible children. But, sometimes bad kids can come out of good
    homes and vice versa. Teachers, friends, coaches, etc help to mold a
    child also. 
    
    	The kids don't only interact with mom and dad.
    
    jim

    
    then i guess -ss's parents must have been real winners.
    
    

    
    
    	Hmmm.......  My parents are really good parents, in my opinion.
    	But for whatever reason my brother refuses to wake up and smell
    	the coffee and still expects the world to be handed to him on
    	a silver platter.  I think I turned out ok.
    

    
    
    <----bwaaahhahahahahahahahahaha!!
    
    
    

    
    
    re: .77
    
    >I think I turned out ok.
    
    
    Except for that body-gem fetish of yours...
    
    
    

| <<< Note 703.77 by DECWIN::JUDY "That's *Ms. Bitch* to you!" >>>



| But for whatever reason my brother refuses to wake up and smell the coffee 

	Maybe your parents should use Folgers. :-)

    
    
    
    	ppppppppppfffffffffftttttttttthhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!1
    
    
    	to all of ya's !!   =)
    

     Researchers: Shroud of Turin May Date to First Century

     By Associated Press, 05/22/96

     NEW ORLEANS (AP) - The Shroud of Turin, the 14-foot linen revered by
     some as the burial cloth of Jesus, may have indeed been woven around
     the time of his death, rather than during the Middle Ages, researchers
     say.

     A microscopic layer of bacteria and fungi may have thrown off carbon
     dating of the shroud and all other ancient fabrics by hundreds, even
     thousands, of years, a team from the University of Texas Health
     Science Center in San Antonio reported Tuesday.

     ``This means that at present time, the radiocarbon dating of ancient
     textiles is not a reliable test,'' said one of the researchers, Dr.
     Leoncio Garza-Valdes, a pediatrician and archaeologist. ``This is
     going to produce a big, big revolution.''

     The findings were presented Tuesday at a meeting of the American
     Society of Microbiology.

     A geochemist whose tests concluded that the shroud was woven between
     1260 and 1390 said he is confident his findings will stand.

     ``We'll look into it, but we've been through this before,'' said Paul
     Damon, professor emeritus at the University of Arizona. ``We have
     dated linen from the pharaonic dynasties. We've dated Coptic linen.
     And there's never been any question. The dates come out very
     reasonably.''

     The Shroud of Turin has been enshrined at Italy's Royal Chapel of
     Turin since 1578, though the Roman Catholic Church has never claimed
     it as a holy relic.

     The cloth bears the faint yellowish negative image of the front and
     back of a man with thorn marks on the head, cuts on the back and
     bruises on the shoulders.

     AP-DS-05-22-96 0522EDT

    "Tell me all your thoughts of god, 'cause I'd like to meet her..."

    
    	good tune...